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@Billinghurst could you explain me why the link I add a bout a gyspy jazz method ( http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/en_wiki/index.php/Category:Gypsy_Jazz_Method) is more commercial than truefire.com a online shop for online lessons or even djangopedia which contains more Adsense than mine? Thanks for explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.253.177 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't Django's name be listed as Jean-Baptiste? It is not like in English where the name is separated, rather it is common French name, like Jean-Pierre, Jean-Jacques, Jean-Luc, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.65.196 ( talk) 20:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
has been discussed extensively on the Django Reinhardt page 1Z ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
I tried to add some sourcing and tone down a few things.-- T. Anthony 03:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As I understand all this article needs now are links? RomanyChaj
I see that the user Conical Johnson added the "Original research" tag for the "Techniques" section. Can somebody bring some sources for it, as I know myself that most of the infos are true? Also, something on the special vibrato that they use would be good (with a source of course:) ). Kenshin ( talk) 11:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that this section is accurate and not OR. I could add some refs from Romane's book. 1Z ( talk) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed a dubious claim about "gypsybilly" and contacted user:Conical Johnson. 1Z ( talk) 08:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I have to say something that is on all too few Wp talk pages: This is an absolutely fantastic article and a marvelous source of information, Wp's cavils about sourcing notwithstanding. -- Craig Goodrich 68.58.132.176 ( talk) 08:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
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All these uses of Gypsy, yet not a single pointer to
Romani people? (FWIW, my granddad was Rom, and we take pride in being "of Gypsy blood," so I hope nobody goes all PC on this article just for that reason.)
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
17:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
In my opinion this article badly needs a "History" section: compare for example /info/en/?search=Jazz#History. I am happy to create one if no-one thinks this is a bad idea... Cheers Tony 1212 ( talk) 23:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
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Hi, I've added an image gallery and populated it with a subset of relevant images from Wikimedia Commons. Perhaps more can be added over time, as new ones appear there. If anyone wishes to add to or alter my selection, feel free. Cheers Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 19:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I am thinking that it would be nice to list a few "overview" discographical items (compilations) that deal with the genre as a whole, as opposed to LPs/CDs by individual artists, in a "discography", or "listening" section. I can find no guidance on whether this is preferred for genre articles, under e.g /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies; other examples (Blues, Bluegrass music), however do not seem to do this. Thoughts, anyone? Regards - Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 06:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
[Section header] "Anthologies", or "Recordings", or "Selected recommended listening", or...
...plus any recent compilations/reissues of historic recordings by the original Quintette du Hot Club de France.
On film:
Anonymous user 100.4.148.101 has twice inserted the phrase "influenced by (Django Reinhardt)" to the lede description of the style, first to replace my wording "developed by", then my replacement text/semi revert "originating from", without justification. I have around 10 texts in front of me that would support stating Django as originator of the style, and you would have to live under a rock to assert anything to the contrary. What is best to be done here? Regards Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 22:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Well the material you removed was footnoted with multiple citations of peer-reviewed sources. This "family tree" concept, which is derived from Dregni, is a fiction based on the frankly racially essentialist notion that a musical genre is a function exclusively of its performers' race or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.12 ( talk) 19:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Django Reinhardt did not develop gypsy jazz. It was developed by other musicians many years after he died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.145.216 ( talk) 20:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
The argument is not that the genre did not exist until it was named as such; the point is that nobody during Django Reinhardt's lifetime—or for some years after his death—considered the music he played (after 1930 or so) to be any genre other than jazz, plain and simple. Dregni is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 ( talk) 00:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
No, actually it makes perfect sense—it's the distinction between a musical idiolect and a dialect [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 ( talk) 01:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
In order to correctly understand the current state of jazz manouche, it's important that we get a brief, generational family tree. Currently there are four generations of Gypsy Jazz guitarists going back to Django's era. They are as follows:
The first generation are contemporaries of Django, but are limited to those guitarists who were active professionally while he was still alive, but limited to those whose actually recorded during Django's reign. There are guitarists who were indeed active during this period and also recorded, but they simply didn't come into their own to receive what little recognition they got. Tchan-Tchou would be a perfect example. Note: These are not complete lists, general, known players names are used (and some obscure ones as well)
The first generation, early 1930's to the early 1950's: Matelo, Baro, Sarane and Challain Ferret, Eugene Vees, Henri Crolla, Jacques Montagne, Joseph Reinhardt, Gusti Malha, Leo Slab, Lousson Baumgartner, Didi Duprat.
The second generation, mid to late 1950's through the early 1970's: Mondine Garcia, Ninine Garcia, Chatou Garcia, Piton Reinhardt, Spatzo Adel, Niglo Adel, Vivian Villerstein, Maurice Ferret, Joseph Pouville, Tchan-Tchou, Bousquet, Cardi, Schnuckenack Reinhardt, Häns'che Weiss, Romansj, Laro Sollero, Angelo, René Maihles, Babik Reinhardt
The third generation, mid 1970's through the mid to late 1980's - Dorado Schmitt, Tchavolo Schmitt, Mandino Reinhardt, Hono Winterstein, Bireli Lagrene, Mito Loeffler, Titi Winterstein, Romane, Laurent Bajata, Martin Weiss, Traubeli Weiss, Romani Weiss, Mike Reinhardt, Samson Reinhardt, Coco Reinhardt, Tchouta Adel, Jeannot "Titotte" Mahla, Raphael Fays, Fapy Lafertin
The fourth generation, late 1980's to the present: Jimmy Rosenberg, Samson Schmitt, Dino Mehrstein, Yorgui Loeffler, Dallas Baumgartner, Mundine Garcia, Rocky Garcia, Rocky Fallone, Noe Reinhardt, Moreno, Angelo Debarre, David Reinhardt, Mano Drey, Kussi Weiss, Tchocolo Winterstein, Doudou Cuillierre.
Again, this list is by no means exhaustive, just enough to give you an idea as to who came onto the scene at what point. You should also be able to tell, by where the players come from, who their teachers were. You can begin to draw a picture of how the music was handed down through the generations. Comments of questions?
Best,
Ted
-Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 19:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
The Properbox CD compilation was released in 2007, more than 50 years after Django Reinhardt died, and it was attempting to retrospectively invent a history for the genre in order to legitimize it. An effective way to validate something is to assert that it is old and has "withstood the test of time," whether or not that is actually the case. The Mormons claim that when someone converts to Mormonism, then all their ancestors are posthumously baptized as members of the Church of Latter Day Saints. It's defining something (or somebody, such as the falsity that Reinhardt was a "gypsy jazz" musician) by retrospective fiat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9934:A57F:12D3:C452 ( talk) 03:40, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
That is definitely it from me (unlike just above), I have done my best to improve this page for the benefit of all but now leave to others to take it further, as well as deal with dissenting opinions. Tony 1212 ( talk) 22:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Actually, Joseph Reinhardt stated directly, when questioned, that he considered the music he played to be simply "jazz," and not any kind of traditional gypsy music (or any other genre, for that matter). You can see the film of him saying this by searching for "Joseph & Babik Reinhardt. Tchan Tchou Vidal 1960's" on YouTube.
In general, the children learned from their parents/uncles/other relatives (same can be said for the Dutch school), it was part of their culture in which they grew up; with the possible exception of some of the gypsy musicians from Alsace - whom it has been stated were inspired to take up the style following a visit from Schnuckenack Reinhardt's outfit in the 60s or 70s - they did not suddenly "decide" to try to play in a Django-like style. All this and more is evident particularly from Cruickshank's book/s as well as from documentary evidence such as the Averty film cited above. Regards Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 06:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Notice that you are now discussing whether the concept of "gypsy jazz" originated in the 1960s or the 1970s—whereas Django Reinhardt died in 1953. Django did not play "gypsy jazz." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 ( talk) 01:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
References
Here are the sources introduced by the editor who has been using IPs from Hudson, New York. They are interesting, and may provide good viewpoints for this article. Binksternet ( talk) 05:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Hey, i’ve been informed that many regard the G word when referring to Roma as a slur (and all other language variations), seeing as the article name in this instance contains said word, I propose that we change it to something like "Romani Jazz" (since i believe its standard wikipedia protocol and this is a big active page, i came here to build consensus)
P.S. i'm aware many Roma also use this term in reclamation and take great pride in it, and I respect that, I'm not Roma myself so specifically i'd like your input on this as it is a matter of your people above all else
"Jazz Manouche" would probably be the proper name. It seems like the next most common term for this genre. Manouche is not simply the french translation of the slur. It's an autonym—what the people call themselves. (root is 'manus' in Romani, i.e. 'human,' whereas 'gyp' comes from 'Egyptian,' a mistaken guess on where the Roma people originated.)
On the other hand: while I personally support changing the name (g*psy is indeed a slur), the current article name is what it's known by 90% of the time. I'm not sure of Wikipedia etiquette when it comes to this. 2600:6C46:6D7F:7400:3009:6441:2AE3:99D ( talk) 10:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
This article has been edited to replace most mentios of gypsy with roma or manouche, but nobody refers to this music as manouche jazz. Wikipedia should be descriptive and refer to it as gypsy jazz as most people do. Miro8888 ( talk) 12:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
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@Billinghurst could you explain me why the link I add a bout a gyspy jazz method ( http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/en_wiki/index.php/Category:Gypsy_Jazz_Method) is more commercial than truefire.com a online shop for online lessons or even djangopedia which contains more Adsense than mine? Thanks for explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.253.177 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't Django's name be listed as Jean-Baptiste? It is not like in English where the name is separated, rather it is common French name, like Jean-Pierre, Jean-Jacques, Jean-Luc, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.65.196 ( talk) 20:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
has been discussed extensively on the Django Reinhardt page 1Z ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
I tried to add some sourcing and tone down a few things.-- T. Anthony 03:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As I understand all this article needs now are links? RomanyChaj
I see that the user Conical Johnson added the "Original research" tag for the "Techniques" section. Can somebody bring some sources for it, as I know myself that most of the infos are true? Also, something on the special vibrato that they use would be good (with a source of course:) ). Kenshin ( talk) 11:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that this section is accurate and not OR. I could add some refs from Romane's book. 1Z ( talk) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed a dubious claim about "gypsybilly" and contacted user:Conical Johnson. 1Z ( talk) 08:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I have to say something that is on all too few Wp talk pages: This is an absolutely fantastic article and a marvelous source of information, Wp's cavils about sourcing notwithstanding. -- Craig Goodrich 68.58.132.176 ( talk) 08:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:44, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
All these uses of Gypsy, yet not a single pointer to
Romani people? (FWIW, my granddad was Rom, and we take pride in being "of Gypsy blood," so I hope nobody goes all PC on this article just for that reason.)
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
17:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
In my opinion this article badly needs a "History" section: compare for example /info/en/?search=Jazz#History. I am happy to create one if no-one thinks this is a bad idea... Cheers Tony 1212 ( talk) 23:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Gypsy jazz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi, I've added an image gallery and populated it with a subset of relevant images from Wikimedia Commons. Perhaps more can be added over time, as new ones appear there. If anyone wishes to add to or alter my selection, feel free. Cheers Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 19:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, I am thinking that it would be nice to list a few "overview" discographical items (compilations) that deal with the genre as a whole, as opposed to LPs/CDs by individual artists, in a "discography", or "listening" section. I can find no guidance on whether this is preferred for genre articles, under e.g /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies; other examples (Blues, Bluegrass music), however do not seem to do this. Thoughts, anyone? Regards - Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 06:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
[Section header] "Anthologies", or "Recordings", or "Selected recommended listening", or...
...plus any recent compilations/reissues of historic recordings by the original Quintette du Hot Club de France.
On film:
Anonymous user 100.4.148.101 has twice inserted the phrase "influenced by (Django Reinhardt)" to the lede description of the style, first to replace my wording "developed by", then my replacement text/semi revert "originating from", without justification. I have around 10 texts in front of me that would support stating Django as originator of the style, and you would have to live under a rock to assert anything to the contrary. What is best to be done here? Regards Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 22:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Well the material you removed was footnoted with multiple citations of peer-reviewed sources. This "family tree" concept, which is derived from Dregni, is a fiction based on the frankly racially essentialist notion that a musical genre is a function exclusively of its performers' race or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.12 ( talk) 19:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Django Reinhardt did not develop gypsy jazz. It was developed by other musicians many years after he died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.145.216 ( talk) 20:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
The argument is not that the genre did not exist until it was named as such; the point is that nobody during Django Reinhardt's lifetime—or for some years after his death—considered the music he played (after 1930 or so) to be any genre other than jazz, plain and simple. Dregni is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 ( talk) 00:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
No, actually it makes perfect sense—it's the distinction between a musical idiolect and a dialect [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 ( talk) 01:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
In order to correctly understand the current state of jazz manouche, it's important that we get a brief, generational family tree. Currently there are four generations of Gypsy Jazz guitarists going back to Django's era. They are as follows:
The first generation are contemporaries of Django, but are limited to those guitarists who were active professionally while he was still alive, but limited to those whose actually recorded during Django's reign. There are guitarists who were indeed active during this period and also recorded, but they simply didn't come into their own to receive what little recognition they got. Tchan-Tchou would be a perfect example. Note: These are not complete lists, general, known players names are used (and some obscure ones as well)
The first generation, early 1930's to the early 1950's: Matelo, Baro, Sarane and Challain Ferret, Eugene Vees, Henri Crolla, Jacques Montagne, Joseph Reinhardt, Gusti Malha, Leo Slab, Lousson Baumgartner, Didi Duprat.
The second generation, mid to late 1950's through the early 1970's: Mondine Garcia, Ninine Garcia, Chatou Garcia, Piton Reinhardt, Spatzo Adel, Niglo Adel, Vivian Villerstein, Maurice Ferret, Joseph Pouville, Tchan-Tchou, Bousquet, Cardi, Schnuckenack Reinhardt, Häns'che Weiss, Romansj, Laro Sollero, Angelo, René Maihles, Babik Reinhardt
The third generation, mid 1970's through the mid to late 1980's - Dorado Schmitt, Tchavolo Schmitt, Mandino Reinhardt, Hono Winterstein, Bireli Lagrene, Mito Loeffler, Titi Winterstein, Romane, Laurent Bajata, Martin Weiss, Traubeli Weiss, Romani Weiss, Mike Reinhardt, Samson Reinhardt, Coco Reinhardt, Tchouta Adel, Jeannot "Titotte" Mahla, Raphael Fays, Fapy Lafertin
The fourth generation, late 1980's to the present: Jimmy Rosenberg, Samson Schmitt, Dino Mehrstein, Yorgui Loeffler, Dallas Baumgartner, Mundine Garcia, Rocky Garcia, Rocky Fallone, Noe Reinhardt, Moreno, Angelo Debarre, David Reinhardt, Mano Drey, Kussi Weiss, Tchocolo Winterstein, Doudou Cuillierre.
Again, this list is by no means exhaustive, just enough to give you an idea as to who came onto the scene at what point. You should also be able to tell, by where the players come from, who their teachers were. You can begin to draw a picture of how the music was handed down through the generations. Comments of questions?
Best,
Ted
-Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 19:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
The Properbox CD compilation was released in 2007, more than 50 years after Django Reinhardt died, and it was attempting to retrospectively invent a history for the genre in order to legitimize it. An effective way to validate something is to assert that it is old and has "withstood the test of time," whether or not that is actually the case. The Mormons claim that when someone converts to Mormonism, then all their ancestors are posthumously baptized as members of the Church of Latter Day Saints. It's defining something (or somebody, such as the falsity that Reinhardt was a "gypsy jazz" musician) by retrospective fiat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9934:A57F:12D3:C452 ( talk) 03:40, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
That is definitely it from me (unlike just above), I have done my best to improve this page for the benefit of all but now leave to others to take it further, as well as deal with dissenting opinions. Tony 1212 ( talk) 22:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Actually, Joseph Reinhardt stated directly, when questioned, that he considered the music he played to be simply "jazz," and not any kind of traditional gypsy music (or any other genre, for that matter). You can see the film of him saying this by searching for "Joseph & Babik Reinhardt. Tchan Tchou Vidal 1960's" on YouTube.
In general, the children learned from their parents/uncles/other relatives (same can be said for the Dutch school), it was part of their culture in which they grew up; with the possible exception of some of the gypsy musicians from Alsace - whom it has been stated were inspired to take up the style following a visit from Schnuckenack Reinhardt's outfit in the 60s or 70s - they did not suddenly "decide" to try to play in a Django-like style. All this and more is evident particularly from Cruickshank's book/s as well as from documentary evidence such as the Averty film cited above. Regards Tony Tony 1212 ( talk) 06:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Notice that you are now discussing whether the concept of "gypsy jazz" originated in the 1960s or the 1970s—whereas Django Reinhardt died in 1953. Django did not play "gypsy jazz." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 ( talk) 01:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
References
Here are the sources introduced by the editor who has been using IPs from Hudson, New York. They are interesting, and may provide good viewpoints for this article. Binksternet ( talk) 05:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Hey, i’ve been informed that many regard the G word when referring to Roma as a slur (and all other language variations), seeing as the article name in this instance contains said word, I propose that we change it to something like "Romani Jazz" (since i believe its standard wikipedia protocol and this is a big active page, i came here to build consensus)
P.S. i'm aware many Roma also use this term in reclamation and take great pride in it, and I respect that, I'm not Roma myself so specifically i'd like your input on this as it is a matter of your people above all else
"Jazz Manouche" would probably be the proper name. It seems like the next most common term for this genre. Manouche is not simply the french translation of the slur. It's an autonym—what the people call themselves. (root is 'manus' in Romani, i.e. 'human,' whereas 'gyp' comes from 'Egyptian,' a mistaken guess on where the Roma people originated.)
On the other hand: while I personally support changing the name (g*psy is indeed a slur), the current article name is what it's known by 90% of the time. I'm not sure of Wikipedia etiquette when it comes to this. 2600:6C46:6D7F:7400:3009:6441:2AE3:99D ( talk) 10:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
This article has been edited to replace most mentios of gypsy with roma or manouche, but nobody refers to this music as manouche jazz. Wikipedia should be descriptive and refer to it as gypsy jazz as most people do. Miro8888 ( talk) 12:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)