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It is truth that Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia regard him as Macedonian, Bulgarians regard him as Bulgarian. If Petrov while still living regarded himself like both of nations (in ethnic sense) it would be NPOV to write Bulgarian/Macedonian (etnic group) or Macedonian (etnic group)/Bulgarian. But what we can do if we can not find some evidences that Petrov had a Macedonian ethnic consciousness? If he fight for Macedonia like one of the local Bulgarians? Then it would be honest to write Bulgarian revolutionary and to specify that in RoM he is regarded like ethnic Macedonian. It is just an oppinion. -- AleksandarH 20:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The key word in the whole text was BULGARIAN! The english(bulgarian) wikipedia know all about Gorce Petrov, and anything is true. But everyting what macedonian wikipedia will said is falce. Ok, now I know what is the whole. BUGARSKA PROPAGANDA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.184.154 ( talk) 17:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
This article will be reverted to an older date, on which there is consensus. This article is not neutral with all the interpretations. It has also dead links and unnecessary information like unsigned letters and school certificate. Laveol, please do not move this article to Gyorche Petrov again. Google on it and you will see that Gyorche Petrov is very very seldom used compared to Gjorce Petrov. ( Toci ( talk) 16:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC))
There is nothing in the certificate about Bulgarian except that is Bulgarian School in Plovdiv. Please do not give any regional and ethnical interpretations without references. Keep the article without them. I do not know why is the certificate important for this article, but he had excellent grades. ( Toci ( talk) 21:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC))
I removed the "Quotes" section you can't just make a section for random quotes especially since its obviously from a book. This is POV provided by other users for some reason. Ashkani 22:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
In Gjorce Petrov memoires (Bulgarian source) there is no self declaration by Gjorce of being Bulgarian. Even more he writes ( page 6) "We the pupils "the macedonians", were more loud (making noise)". He also writes on ( page 64) about the dubious and egocentric ( page 66) role of Bulgaria toward the liberation of Macedonia. Due to that Gjorce and his friends adopted stand of self-belief that evolved in idea od self-arming the revolutionaries ( page 65) for liberation of Macedonia. Gjorce is born in Republic of Macedonia, in his memoires has declared as Macedonian and he describes the fight for liberation of Macedonia. He also never mentiones Ilinden-Preobrazenie Uprising, but he writes only about taking part in the uprising on the day Ilinden ( page 167-8). ( Toci ( talk) 22:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC))
There is a lack of documents in favour of the Macedonian idea. What is supposed to prove Macedonian ethnicity, in fact proves exactly the opposite.Petrov mentions many times Macedonia and Macedonians, however, they are always used as geographic terms and at the same time as synonyms of Bulgarian, Thracian and Adrianopolitan.Furthermore, in his memoirs Gjorche numerous times determines the revolutionary activity in Macedonia as national liberation and unification struggle of the Bulgarian people and had never ever said even a word about any relation with ancient civilisations and so on. With all my respect but if our Macedonian friends don't manage to provide us with real reference showing that he had ever expressed ethnic Macedonian identity and considered himself as descendent of the ancient Macedonians, not of the Macedonian Bulgarians, I'll edit the article.
This article was vandalized. If no reliable explaination will be given about the unexplained actionsI am going to remove the POV, which was pushed here. Jingby ( talk) 14:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I have been trying to clean uthis article up to bring it line with the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, inlcuding:
Ground Zero | t 21:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In his memoirs Gjorce speaks of Macedonians ethnicaly, different from Bulgarians. Macedonians were loud and Bulgarians were more silent in the school. The second quote is about his religios belonging. Gjorce is Bulgarian because of his church, Bulgarian Exarchy. During his undercover operation, the visit to the head of the Bulgarian Exarchy, Gjorce was recognized as Bulgarian, belonging to the Bulgarian Exarchy and they speak about the position of the "Bulgarians" (exarchists) and "Greeks" (patriarchists). ( Toci ( talk) 22:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC))
The current title Gjorche Petrov seems a mix of Macedonian and Bulgarian. Using Wikipedia's standard transliteration of his Macedonian and Bulgarian first names, you get either Ѓорче --> Gjorče (or Đorče), or Гьорче --> Gyorche. I'm not sure which version is most used in English, I suggest we pick one of these. Markussep Talk 12:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
An attempt at finding English usage, Google Books: Gjorche Petrov 36, Gyorche Petrov 22, Gjorče Petrov 64. The Macedonian version "Gjorče Petrov" seems most used. Markussep Talk 16:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Gjorche Petrov is not a mix. It is Macedonian transcription, it is rather spelled Gjorce Petrov. Gyorche Petrov is the Bulgarian transcription. No Macedonian will use Gyorche and majority of visitors on this article will probably come from Republic of Macedonia. Since Gjorche is the usual Macedonian transcription and Gyorche is Bulgarian, why should we not use his true name which has same transcription in Macedonian and Bulgarian. Then both Gyorche Petrov and Gjorche Petrov will redirect to Georgi Petrov Nikolov. Neutral compromise. If you have some reasons against please write them. If not I will move it in 6 months.
Tnx Future for the cut. Much appreciated. I even got some 'do not' threats on my talk page. :-) (
Toci (
talk) 18:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC))
The problem is that Toci doesn't like Gyorche Petrov because he perceives it as "too Bulgarian", and in his opinion Petrov was not Bulgarian. There is no actual discussion and no sensible arguments are provided. Todor → Bozhinov 06:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
No name of Dutch painters for example is transcribed with Y instead of J. (
Abraham van Beijeren does not redirect to
Abraham van Beyeren in Wikipedia). It does not reflect English usage. Why transcribe and redirect the Macedonian names? In this case it coicides with the Bulgarian transcription as well. So it is POV. That is why the Bulgarian editors are so eagered to keep it. There is no need to transcribe Gjorce into Gyorche. But to make the things neutral I wrote even Georgi will do. If Gyorche is kept we should redirect all Dutch, Czech, everyone that uses j in the names into something that is easily read by the English. How logical is that?
Using j instead of y is not new in the Slavic languages. The
first Macedonian alphabet was latin. It originate from the 1920s and uses kj, gj, nj, lj for ќ, ѓ, њ, љ. Today we use the same transcription opposite of Bulgarian and Russians that prefer y because they do not have j in their alphabets. So the transcription is not invented recently. There is an upgrade of the Macedonia latin alphabet from the 1940s, but it was never used eithet is used. We strangely use this old latin transcription without writing carons ž, š, č, (ж, ш, ч) and z, s, c, (з, с, ц) are not competitive vocals in Macedonian language. Toci is never Точи, but Тоци in the reading. Toci as Точи sounds too hard and Gjorce as Ѓорце is too soft. Toci is shortening both from Todor or Stojan.
Gjorce Petrov was not Bulgarian in my opinion. He is born in Republic of Macedonia and fought for autonomous Macedonia as his memoirs say. He was killed by pro-Bulgarian wing of the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. He was declared as Bulgarian in his Bulgarian school. Bulgarians did that when they had the power. My grandad was declared Bulgarian during the World War II when Bulgaria occupied Republic of Macedonia. The Bulgarian fashists have named that process as 'education' and divided the Macedonians on 'hopefull Bulgarians' and 'non hopefull Bulgarians'.
Kiro Gligorov, the first president of Republic of Macedonia was a 'hopefull Bulgarian', my grandad was 'non hopefull Bulgarian'. It was a war and in war you do not get to write your ethnicity freely, especially under a treat of your life. Bulgarian fashists used to torture and
kill for that. Macedonians often get fashist flashes (a repeats of the World War I and World War II history) when there is Bulgarian transcription exchanging Macedonian. Especially when even today Bulgarians deny the existence of Macedonians as ethnicity and refer to it with regional distinction.
So keep the neutrality by giving short information about his life without interpretations like 'At the end of the war he was one of the initiators of the formation of a Provisional Government by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), and this government set the task of defending the positions of the Bulgarians in Macedonia at the Paris Peace Conference (1919-1920)'. If Gjorce is too Macedonian for the Bulgarian editors, Georgi is acceptible. Gyorche as root is not.
Macedonians introduce themselves with the first name. We have first name, last name and kin name. The kin names are localy used. The last name is not very important, it was changable due to many occupations in the last century and lots of renamings. The kin names end on -ov (if its a single male reference) -in (if its a single female reference) or -ski and -evci (if its plural reference). Gjorce had another kin name that can be searched for. Gjorce Petrov was simply known as Gjorce. Even in Skopje, Gjorce means Gjorce Petrov, as municipality, or even more gentle in the municipal slang Dzorce (that is dž or џ, not dz or ѕ). Something like 'Georgi Petrov, known as Gjorce Petrov or Gyorche Petrov' will suffice in the article. (
Toci (
talk) 00:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC))
The result of the move request was: page not moved. harej 02:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Gyorche Petrov →
Gjorče Petrov — 1. Google search optimisation (180000 Google hits for Gjorče Petrov compared to 1000 of Gyorche Petrov). 2. Connection to Gjorče Petrov Municipality.
Toci (
talk) 21:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is truth that Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia regard him as Macedonian, Bulgarians regard him as Bulgarian. If Petrov while still living regarded himself like both of nations (in ethnic sense) it would be NPOV to write Bulgarian/Macedonian (etnic group) or Macedonian (etnic group)/Bulgarian. But what we can do if we can not find some evidences that Petrov had a Macedonian ethnic consciousness? If he fight for Macedonia like one of the local Bulgarians? Then it would be honest to write Bulgarian revolutionary and to specify that in RoM he is regarded like ethnic Macedonian. It is just an oppinion. -- AleksandarH 20:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The key word in the whole text was BULGARIAN! The english(bulgarian) wikipedia know all about Gorce Petrov, and anything is true. But everyting what macedonian wikipedia will said is falce. Ok, now I know what is the whole. BUGARSKA PROPAGANDA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.184.154 ( talk) 17:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
This article will be reverted to an older date, on which there is consensus. This article is not neutral with all the interpretations. It has also dead links and unnecessary information like unsigned letters and school certificate. Laveol, please do not move this article to Gyorche Petrov again. Google on it and you will see that Gyorche Petrov is very very seldom used compared to Gjorce Petrov. ( Toci ( talk) 16:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC))
There is nothing in the certificate about Bulgarian except that is Bulgarian School in Plovdiv. Please do not give any regional and ethnical interpretations without references. Keep the article without them. I do not know why is the certificate important for this article, but he had excellent grades. ( Toci ( talk) 21:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC))
I removed the "Quotes" section you can't just make a section for random quotes especially since its obviously from a book. This is POV provided by other users for some reason. Ashkani 22:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
In Gjorce Petrov memoires (Bulgarian source) there is no self declaration by Gjorce of being Bulgarian. Even more he writes ( page 6) "We the pupils "the macedonians", were more loud (making noise)". He also writes on ( page 64) about the dubious and egocentric ( page 66) role of Bulgaria toward the liberation of Macedonia. Due to that Gjorce and his friends adopted stand of self-belief that evolved in idea od self-arming the revolutionaries ( page 65) for liberation of Macedonia. Gjorce is born in Republic of Macedonia, in his memoires has declared as Macedonian and he describes the fight for liberation of Macedonia. He also never mentiones Ilinden-Preobrazenie Uprising, but he writes only about taking part in the uprising on the day Ilinden ( page 167-8). ( Toci ( talk) 22:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC))
There is a lack of documents in favour of the Macedonian idea. What is supposed to prove Macedonian ethnicity, in fact proves exactly the opposite.Petrov mentions many times Macedonia and Macedonians, however, they are always used as geographic terms and at the same time as synonyms of Bulgarian, Thracian and Adrianopolitan.Furthermore, in his memoirs Gjorche numerous times determines the revolutionary activity in Macedonia as national liberation and unification struggle of the Bulgarian people and had never ever said even a word about any relation with ancient civilisations and so on. With all my respect but if our Macedonian friends don't manage to provide us with real reference showing that he had ever expressed ethnic Macedonian identity and considered himself as descendent of the ancient Macedonians, not of the Macedonian Bulgarians, I'll edit the article.
This article was vandalized. If no reliable explaination will be given about the unexplained actionsI am going to remove the POV, which was pushed here. Jingby ( talk) 14:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I have been trying to clean uthis article up to bring it line with the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, inlcuding:
Ground Zero | t 21:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In his memoirs Gjorce speaks of Macedonians ethnicaly, different from Bulgarians. Macedonians were loud and Bulgarians were more silent in the school. The second quote is about his religios belonging. Gjorce is Bulgarian because of his church, Bulgarian Exarchy. During his undercover operation, the visit to the head of the Bulgarian Exarchy, Gjorce was recognized as Bulgarian, belonging to the Bulgarian Exarchy and they speak about the position of the "Bulgarians" (exarchists) and "Greeks" (patriarchists). ( Toci ( talk) 22:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC))
The current title Gjorche Petrov seems a mix of Macedonian and Bulgarian. Using Wikipedia's standard transliteration of his Macedonian and Bulgarian first names, you get either Ѓорче --> Gjorče (or Đorče), or Гьорче --> Gyorche. I'm not sure which version is most used in English, I suggest we pick one of these. Markussep Talk 12:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
An attempt at finding English usage, Google Books: Gjorche Petrov 36, Gyorche Petrov 22, Gjorče Petrov 64. The Macedonian version "Gjorče Petrov" seems most used. Markussep Talk 16:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Gjorche Petrov is not a mix. It is Macedonian transcription, it is rather spelled Gjorce Petrov. Gyorche Petrov is the Bulgarian transcription. No Macedonian will use Gyorche and majority of visitors on this article will probably come from Republic of Macedonia. Since Gjorche is the usual Macedonian transcription and Gyorche is Bulgarian, why should we not use his true name which has same transcription in Macedonian and Bulgarian. Then both Gyorche Petrov and Gjorche Petrov will redirect to Georgi Petrov Nikolov. Neutral compromise. If you have some reasons against please write them. If not I will move it in 6 months.
Tnx Future for the cut. Much appreciated. I even got some 'do not' threats on my talk page. :-) (
Toci (
talk) 18:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC))
The problem is that Toci doesn't like Gyorche Petrov because he perceives it as "too Bulgarian", and in his opinion Petrov was not Bulgarian. There is no actual discussion and no sensible arguments are provided. Todor → Bozhinov 06:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
No name of Dutch painters for example is transcribed with Y instead of J. (
Abraham van Beijeren does not redirect to
Abraham van Beyeren in Wikipedia). It does not reflect English usage. Why transcribe and redirect the Macedonian names? In this case it coicides with the Bulgarian transcription as well. So it is POV. That is why the Bulgarian editors are so eagered to keep it. There is no need to transcribe Gjorce into Gyorche. But to make the things neutral I wrote even Georgi will do. If Gyorche is kept we should redirect all Dutch, Czech, everyone that uses j in the names into something that is easily read by the English. How logical is that?
Using j instead of y is not new in the Slavic languages. The
first Macedonian alphabet was latin. It originate from the 1920s and uses kj, gj, nj, lj for ќ, ѓ, њ, љ. Today we use the same transcription opposite of Bulgarian and Russians that prefer y because they do not have j in their alphabets. So the transcription is not invented recently. There is an upgrade of the Macedonia latin alphabet from the 1940s, but it was never used eithet is used. We strangely use this old latin transcription without writing carons ž, š, č, (ж, ш, ч) and z, s, c, (з, с, ц) are not competitive vocals in Macedonian language. Toci is never Точи, but Тоци in the reading. Toci as Точи sounds too hard and Gjorce as Ѓорце is too soft. Toci is shortening both from Todor or Stojan.
Gjorce Petrov was not Bulgarian in my opinion. He is born in Republic of Macedonia and fought for autonomous Macedonia as his memoirs say. He was killed by pro-Bulgarian wing of the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. He was declared as Bulgarian in his Bulgarian school. Bulgarians did that when they had the power. My grandad was declared Bulgarian during the World War II when Bulgaria occupied Republic of Macedonia. The Bulgarian fashists have named that process as 'education' and divided the Macedonians on 'hopefull Bulgarians' and 'non hopefull Bulgarians'.
Kiro Gligorov, the first president of Republic of Macedonia was a 'hopefull Bulgarian', my grandad was 'non hopefull Bulgarian'. It was a war and in war you do not get to write your ethnicity freely, especially under a treat of your life. Bulgarian fashists used to torture and
kill for that. Macedonians often get fashist flashes (a repeats of the World War I and World War II history) when there is Bulgarian transcription exchanging Macedonian. Especially when even today Bulgarians deny the existence of Macedonians as ethnicity and refer to it with regional distinction.
So keep the neutrality by giving short information about his life without interpretations like 'At the end of the war he was one of the initiators of the formation of a Provisional Government by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), and this government set the task of defending the positions of the Bulgarians in Macedonia at the Paris Peace Conference (1919-1920)'. If Gjorce is too Macedonian for the Bulgarian editors, Georgi is acceptible. Gyorche as root is not.
Macedonians introduce themselves with the first name. We have first name, last name and kin name. The kin names are localy used. The last name is not very important, it was changable due to many occupations in the last century and lots of renamings. The kin names end on -ov (if its a single male reference) -in (if its a single female reference) or -ski and -evci (if its plural reference). Gjorce had another kin name that can be searched for. Gjorce Petrov was simply known as Gjorce. Even in Skopje, Gjorce means Gjorce Petrov, as municipality, or even more gentle in the municipal slang Dzorce (that is dž or џ, not dz or ѕ). Something like 'Georgi Petrov, known as Gjorce Petrov or Gyorche Petrov' will suffice in the article. (
Toci (
talk) 00:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC))
The result of the move request was: page not moved. harej 02:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Gyorche Petrov →
Gjorče Petrov — 1. Google search optimisation (180000 Google hits for Gjorče Petrov compared to 1000 of Gyorche Petrov). 2. Connection to Gjorče Petrov Municipality.
Toci (
talk) 21:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)