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I just reorganized the "Western context" section, grouping the different paragraphs under the more appropriate sub-headings. Is this section is becoming extensive enough to spawn it's own article? I am planing to expand the Sikhims and Buddhism sections. -- Zappaz 05:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with moving Kranenborg's analysis about neo-Hindu movements out of the Hindu section. There are Hindus in the Netherlands too. And I think the separation between Western context and Hindu context is artificial. I have met so many Suriname Hindus who were into the SSB Hindu movement. The first three of the four items that Kranenborg mentioned refer to Hinduism. Besides Kranenborg's reference to caste can only refer to Hindus abroad because Dutch/ Suriname Hindus do not observe caste due to their indention work in Suriname in the 19th century (complicated history). Andries
I kindly disagree with you Andries. A Western perspective and a Eastern perspective is a very needed distinction. We assess our world around based on the cultural context from which we observe. Would you say that the perception of the world of a Australian aborigine and the perception of a New Yorker are the same? Is it possible to say that one is more valid than the other? Attempting to "mix" both perspectives in one article would be very, very strange and unusual. More useful to readers will be to show both perceptions from their perspectives. That will be very interesting material, rather than a confusing mishmash of POVs. Same here. For a pious Sikh, there is no higher being than his Guru. He will compare Guru with God, sing the glory of the Guru, pray to his Guru, etc. For a secular person living in Paris, these statements could be seen as ridiculously backward. So, how do you present an article on this subject in NPOV? By clearly making a distinction. This issue is one that most Westerners have a problem with. We somehow think (with no little amount of arrogance, IMO) that our Western perspective is the only one. Now, Wikipedia is not an Western encyclopedia, thank god. This is what is so wonderful about this project. -- Zappaz 16:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not challenging you on your knowledge of hinduism, but your sometimes innacurate assertions of fact. -- Zappaz 22:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not fundamentally oppose separating coherent perspectives into sections, like sociological perspectives, Sant Mat perspective, Saiva perspective, Vaishnava perspective, but I strongly oppose to using such vague and inaccurate classifications as "Eastern" and "Western" as a basis for making sections in this article. The "Western view" is certainly not a coherent perspective. Even the "Hindu view" cannot be treated as a coherent perspective because there is too much variation between the different schools, sects etc. Andries 14:48, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Andries, what from the text below is from Kranenborg's book and what are your additions. The sentences I am referring to are in bold. Also, explain what is the meaning of last point. It does not make sense. Thanks -- Zappaz 22:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with using that article article by Dr. Georg Feuerstein as a basis for this article because I think it is flimsy in contrast to some of his other writings and above all because he uses some unusual tautological definitions of a guru/spiritual teachers. For example he writes.
This is in sharp contradiction with the understanding of mainstream Hinduism that puts greats emphasis on morality and that its warnings that there are false and incompetent gurus who exploit their followers. Elsewhere Feuerstein writes that there are gurus exploit their followers. Andries 13:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Picking and choosing quotations out of context is not an acceptable manner to cite authors. Later in the day, I will come back and review your edits. I warn you again, Andries, that WP is not a place for advocacy. As I said, if you want to express your opinions in this matter and/or advocate against gurus without being challenged, go ahead and publish your thoughts in a blog, a wiki or a website. If it is good material, we may even link it from here ... :) -- Zappaz 19:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Goethean for cleaning up this section. It reads much better now. -- Zappaz 22:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Although I am always for being bold in editing, I find Andries unilateral masive editing and deletion of text inapproriate and lacking in consensus. I am reverting all these edits. Go slow Andries, and excplain your reasons for each edit.. -- Zappaz 16:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Andries, please note that WP is not a place of advocacy of any kind. If you want to advocate against Gurus and warn the public about the dangers you see, or to tell your personal story, you have all right to do that but not in WP. Get a website or even your own wiki for that. Thank you. -- Zappaz 17:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is the problem, Andries ... your need to advocate blinds you. In an article about Paper money, how much of that article needs to be dedicated to Counterfeit money? -- Zappaz 22:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I repeat: WP is not a place for advocay and not a place for you, or anybody else for that natter to save people from suffering. Regarding your extensive edits, I do not have much time today, but rest assure that I will come back and clean up after you. I find your attitude of unilaterally editing to be disingenous and lacking in manners. --
Zappaz 15:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry Andries, your advocacy is creating havoc in this and other articles. This is unacceptable. I have no other way than to revert again all your edits, and I will continue to do the allowed times: 3 times in 24hrs, until you consider editing collaborativelly and seeking consensus before making substantial changes to an article that was stable for months.-- Zappaz 16:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is not about "who's version" prevails. Note that the previous version was not my version. And theres is not point to discuss issues related to your version. This article does not belong to you... The issue at hand is one of consensus NPOV writing vs. advocacy against or for "gurus". Regarding your extensive comments, if you want to play by the rules, please state each one concisely and let's discuss them. -- Zappaz 20:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not - (my highlights) -- Zappaz 21:01, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not here to impress anyone. Your combative attitude is not helping here. The version you took apart is NOT my version. Is a version arrived by a multitude edits over a period of months by many editors. Please don't play the naive with me. Your anti-guru advocacy is known to anyone that has followed your edits, and can read your own words above. Your deletion of text, your shifting around the text to portray your anti-guru POV is totally unencyclopedic and unfair. Your "pick-and-chose" citations and anything but POV, and your attempt to stuff the text as a later thought to claim "I have added information", is just a game that I will not accept. Period. And I am absolutely serious in challenging you on this. --
Zappaz 23:04, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Listen, Andries, playing unilaterally will take you nowhere... You see, I can come tomorrow and excise the whole text about Eastern perspecive and spawn it into its own article. What will you do then? Revert my edits, wouldn't you? Put an RfC? If you want to work together, then revert back to the last version by Goethean and come here to discuss the changes. Thank you and good night. -- Zappaz 23:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank God for a new day...
-- Zappaz 07:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unacceptable editing behavior. I tried to incorporate your additional texts, but you are unilaterally making too many edits that substatially change an article that was worked on by many editors before you. This is totally unacceptable behavior. This is about collabrative editing. I ask of you again: Discuss substantial changes to the article here, and seek consensus before proceeding. Until you accept to play by the rules, my activities on this article will be as follows:
I replied to your proposal about restructuring already and presented my reasons why it is a poor idea. I also suggested to bring this issue to RfC. You ignored this and acted unilaterally. The fact that you went ahead with the change without seeking consensus, shows your contemmpt for collaborative editing. As I said, until you relent, I will revert your changes throughout the maximum allowed eachy day, and at night I will attempt to incorporate new text that is worthy of inclusion into the article as it was before your restructuring. Note that I am not only oppossing your restructuring, I am opposing your attempt to make this article an anti-guru article as a mean to advocate your POV that gurus are "dangerous". This is an outrageous disregard for the reverence that millions of people profess for their Gurus, in Hinduism, Skihism, and Budhism and a blatant disregard for the no-advocacy of WP. Have a good day. -- Zappaz 21:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you presented to RfC, how come you don't announce this here? That is disingenous. If you were not impressed by my rebuttal, then you engage me in a conversation about it. That is what we do here at WP: we discuss, give and take, collaborate. I am with you that the aspects of false gurus is both fascinating and worthy of study (I mysefl added tet from Gita regarding this aspect), but it needs to be placed in the correct context, and a minority viewpoint it needs a worthy mention but no more. After all you don't define something by what is not. At ninght I will attempt to incorporate your text additions (some of which are very good, btw) to the original structure. -- Zappaz 22:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course it is a minority! Your attitude is exactly what I am dsiputing: The attitude that a Western viewpoint can override other viewpoints in which the West is clearly a minority. -- Zappaz 22:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hope I did not leave out any valuable new text added by Andries. -- Zappaz 02:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Andries, for chosing to collaborate. It is appreciated. Regarding your latest edit, I am 90% OK with it, I will make some minor changes later on that I will fully substantiante here. -- Zappaz 15:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here they are my edits of today:
Some other issues/concerns:
-- Zappaz 15:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If after taking the "spiritual crucible" you find out that your guru charges money for membership, lives an unethical lifestyle, self-proclaims his mastership, encourages proselytizing, alleges to be God-incarnated, emphasizes pre-rational practices, and demands total obedience, it can be assumed that you're on the wrong path and that your guru is a charlatan. On the other hand, if your guru/path scores positively in all areas (such an accomplishment, by the way, is rare), then you are very fortunate to have been led to a beneficial and legitimate spiritual movement.
A Western perspective and a Eastern perspective is a very needed distinction. We assess our world around based on the cultural context from which we observe. Would you say that the perception of the world of a Australian aborigine and the perception of a New Yorker are the same? Is it possible to say that one is more valid than the other? Attempting to "mix" both perspectives in one article would be very, very strange and unusual. More useful to readers will be to show both perceptions from their perspectives. That will be very interesting material, rather than a confusing mishmash of POVs. Same here. For a pious Sikh, there is no higher being than his Guru. He will compare Guru with God, sing the glory of the Guru, pray to his Guru, etc. For a secular person living in Paris, these statements could be seen as ridiculously backward. So, how do you present an article on this subject in NPOV? By clearly making a distinction. This issue is one that most Westerners have a problem with. We somehow think (with no little amount of arrogance, IMO) that our Western perspective is the only one. Now, Wikipedia is not an Western encyclopedia, thank god. This is what is so wonderful about this project. --Zappaz 16:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1 Guru in Hinduism
2 Guru in Buddhism
3 Guru in Sikhism
4 A taxonomy of gurus
5 "Guru" in a Western culture context
6 Other uses of the word 'Guru'
There is no such thing as a "Western perspective" or "Eastern perspective". There is a perspective of the followers of bhakti movements, Christians, Skeptics, humanists, traditional Hindus, Radhasoami adepts etc. regardless where they were born and grew up. Some Indians are skeptics. Is that an Eastern persective? Some Westerners follow bhakti movements. Is that a Western perspective? Very artificial and very inaccurate to use the terms Western and Eastern perspective and context. Andries 17:41, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1 Guru in Hinduism
2 Guru in Buddhism
3 Guru in Sikhism
4 A taxonomy of gurus
5 Gurus in the West and their European and American followers
6 Additional meanings in contemporary western usage
7 Assessment of the guru's authenticity and criticism
8 List of gurus independent from traditional religions
9 Other Uses of the word 'Guru'
vs.
One editor changed the RfC notice to say that it was several editors against one, and assigning a position to those multiple opponents. This dispute appears to be between just two editors. The comment has since been corrected. - Willmcw 22:53, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, can you please find out in what book by Feuerstein his article Understanding the guru was published? Thanks Andries 22:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, an introduction to quotes should be neutral. The POV should be in the quote, not in the the introduction of the quote. I consider the following introduction of Feuerstein's quote as an unacceptable endorsement of his very subjective view.
A more NPOV introduction would be
or
Andries 07:12, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I want to emphasize that the extensive quotes from Feuerstein's article promote a highly subjective point of view on gurus that is non-mainstream in the Western world. I admit that this view should be represented but in a section about "Gurus in a Western context" it deserves less prominence than for example Deutsch' or van der Lans' point of view. Deutsch published his article in several psychiatric journals and a book published by the APA. Van der Lans was an internationally respect professor in the psychology of religion. Andries 11:41, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz,
Zappaz,
You changed the sub section title from
into
Hereunder I will show show that the section contains a significant amount of assessment of gurus and not just criticism and that hence the title that you propose is inaccurate
Andries 21:10, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Back to square one, Andries. Your edits are totally unacceptable for all the reasons discussed ad-nauseum above. Reverted. Can we just have an article about Gurus without any slant neither pro or anti? And don't tell me that you are writing within NPOV, because you are not. Period. I am trying to reach consensus, but it seems that you are not interested. This is becaming unglamorous, tedious and a waste of my time. -- Zappaz 15:16, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rick Ross? What this has to do with Rick Ross? He is a deprogrammer that was found guilty of abducting a person and that charges money to families to extract people from alleged cults. The article on Rick Ross can be discussed there. Here we are discussing this article.
Andries, this is not about making "concessions". This is about not editorializing and not using this article for advocacy either pro or con. I will look into the article again, as dispassionately as I can, to see if there is a way out. -- Zappaz 23:00, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just read the article, and you know what I think? That the Western section is 90% critical of gurus; and that the size of that section in comparison with the rest of the article is way to big. When actually there are many people in the West that think and feel different. I would add any Westerner that is a Buddhist, for example. How are these people's POV presented in the article? What about scholars that do not write critically about the guru? If there is a concession to be made, is to add text to the Western section that presents the other side of the coin that the one offered by skeptics, anti-cultists and anti-guru secular scholars. We should work on that. -- Zappaz 23:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cite sources ( citation): provide references that help the reader to check the veracity of the article and to find more information. Good citations are critical to help make Wikipedia trusted and useful. If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite. If you are writing from your own knowledge, then you should know enough to identify good references that the reader can consult on the subject—you will not be around forever to answer questions. (Also, this forces you to check your facts, and you might find that you do not know everything.) The main point is to help the reader—cite whatever you think will be most helpful. This applies when writing about opinions, as well—beware the temptation to write weasel phrases like, "Some people say..." Who said it, and where and when? (Remember that Wikipedia is not for your opinions or for original research.) This applies even when the information is currently undisputed — even if there is no dispute right now, someone might come along in five years and want to dispute, verify, or learn more about a topic. For disputed claims, it is extremely helpful to have a citation so that the issue can either be investigated (by readers) or resolved (by the Wikipedia editing community).
It is helpelss, Goethean. Andries is unable to listen. His agenda is clear and he is one of these that will spent an inordenate number of hours in WP just to advocate his point of view, robing the fun of editing WP. I am tired of it and I had enough of his game. -- Zappaz 15:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You don't seem understand what Goethean and I are saying. Yes, there are people critics of gurus (duh!) but to have such a large section in which only these critics are cited and in which only "juicy" excerpts are displayed, is blatant advocacy and using WP as a soapbox. It will be sufficient to say that there are some authors that are critical of gurus, that France enacted anti-cult legislation that included groups led by gurus, and that gurus, by its own definition, is a role that is not clearly understood in a western context. Period. That is enough, NPOV and a fair exposition of the controversy. The split proposed is NOT a POV split because (a) we will have a good summary here and (b) the article will benefit from it -- Zappaz 16:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Let me give you an example, Andries. Will it be NPOV to use 50% of the article about Pope to write about the criticism of the Pope? There are many people that they do not approve of the anti-abortion, anti-gay policy of the church. If I do that to the Pope article I will be crucified (pun intended). So,. you will not get away with a simlar thing here. Yes, there are people critical of gurus, OK. But it is POV to pik and chose citations from anti-guru authors and use 50% of the article for that. -- Zappaz 16:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will add more text about gurus in a western context, that is not critical "picks". Until then, This section deserves a disputed tag. BTW, your other edits in the Hindu section are also POV and have been reverted again. - Zappaz 18:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a Hindu view on the guru business
Andries 05:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From a German website about Asia [5]
Andries 05:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dutch Expression: "Geen goeroe zonder giro", meaning "No guru without bank account"
Andries 05:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Zappaz 15:13, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, you use all kinds of arguments that you break yourself when it suits you. Hereabove I gave two examples i.e. Rick Ross and the section "Devotees views on Guru and God". And I have noticed that you have done this more often. You should ask yourself what this means.You can have an opinion about cults and NRMs but please try to remain fair and reasonable when editing Wikipedia. Ed Poor does a better job than you in this respect.
Andries 15:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since this page is on my watchlist I can't help noticing the large nymber of reverts in the last few days. Page protection may be helpful to quiet down the situation. - Willmcw 19:58, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
The two are not exclusive.- Willmcw 20:03, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
I have also requested mediation
That is not the way you request mediation. -- Zappaz 20:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have requested that the article be protected as well as seek mediation to break the deadlock. -- Zappaz 20:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
4th revert in a 24-hr period by Andries. Requested ban. -- Zappaz 20:53, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Three-revert rule If you violate the three-revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24 hours, sysops may block you for up to 24 hours. In the cases where multiple parties violate the rule, administrators should treat all sides equally.
Proving once more Andries disregard for WP policy. -- Zappaz 20:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
These are the most notable gurus in the West and seven of 10 twelve (58%) were involved in serious scandal and controversy. But still
user:Zappaz says that a large section of criticsm in the section about gurus in the West is against NPOV guidelines. This is a list of the most notable and popular gurus in the West and not a selection of controversial ones. Allegations and controversies are in bold and in some cases mere allegations and not proven facts.
So that means that 3 5 out of 10 12 (41%) notable gurus in the West are relatively uncontroversial as a person. This proves my point that gurus in the West are very controversial.
Andries 21:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And even Vivekananda, the first guru who came to West has become suspect because of the controversy with regard's to his guru Ramakrishna's playing with the genitals of his close followers with his toes during trance. Allegedly because Ramakrishna himself was sexually abused in his youth. [10] very sad. Andries 21:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(UTC)
I also would like to draw attention to the fact that the criticisms comes from many different sources (Lane, van der Lans, Storr, Premanand, Kovoor, Narsimhaiah) and I tried to summarize as much as possible. For example, the article only mentions three points out of 7 of Lane's article and it summarized Storr's whole book about gurus in one paragraph. In contrast, the long quote by Feuerstein has hardly been summarized. Andries 23:38, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the list presented above, I do not know what is its purpose, (Also, you forgot to add the Dalai Lama to your list and thousands others that do not make it to the news). The discussion is not about controversial gurus, the discussion is about an article that has 50% of it dedicated to criticism of gurus in the West by a small group of scholars and your pick and chosing citations tactics to advocate against gurus. BTW, to almost every thing you have listed you can add the word "alleged", and most of these allegations are made by anti-cultists and/or apostates who's testimony has been challeged quite extensively as you know. For each allegation there we can find 1,000's of people stating the contrary. So, yes, there is controversy, but that is not the issue we are discussing!. In your way of thinking we could go to the article about Catholicism, add a section named "Sexual misconduct of priests in the USA" and use 50% of the space in the article for that. Go try it... claim NPOV, claim whatever you want...but it will not stick because that is not the way NPOV works. Same here. Get it?
For a reminder of what we are discussing here, read the request for mediation summary. I am tired of repeating myself. -- Zappaz 23:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the list above, you better add the disclaimer "alleged" before each one of these statements. Although this is a talk page, please remain civil and don't write allegations as facts. Thanks. (If you don't do it, I will delete the list.) -- Zappaz 23:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More bad manners? Please do not change the tags. Selective inclusion of information is the same as factual innacuracy. This is my last communication with you until some one comes and mediates. I had enough of your stuborness, lack of manners, unilateral approach, lack of willingness to seek consensus, and your use of WP for advocacy against gurus, new religions and related subjects. -- Zappaz 15:18, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mature yo say? You must be nuts to think that way! The article is a bloody NPOV disaster since you got involved, and you have the chutzpah' to keep talking as if everything is fine and no dispute is in place? BTW, Will your logic does not work. I cannot add "favorable" material. What should I write? that these many people think that guru so and so is a great person? Is that encyclopedic? is that NPOV? The fact is that this article in the current shape is not NPOV.
In regard of the list on this page, the text needs to fixed or excised from this page because as it stands its libelous and not NPOV. These pages get indexed by search engines as well and it is against WP policy to use its pages for these type of accussations. I will not allow it. -- Zappaz 22:34, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I just reorganized the "Western context" section, grouping the different paragraphs under the more appropriate sub-headings. Is this section is becoming extensive enough to spawn it's own article? I am planing to expand the Sikhims and Buddhism sections. -- Zappaz 05:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with moving Kranenborg's analysis about neo-Hindu movements out of the Hindu section. There are Hindus in the Netherlands too. And I think the separation between Western context and Hindu context is artificial. I have met so many Suriname Hindus who were into the SSB Hindu movement. The first three of the four items that Kranenborg mentioned refer to Hinduism. Besides Kranenborg's reference to caste can only refer to Hindus abroad because Dutch/ Suriname Hindus do not observe caste due to their indention work in Suriname in the 19th century (complicated history). Andries
I kindly disagree with you Andries. A Western perspective and a Eastern perspective is a very needed distinction. We assess our world around based on the cultural context from which we observe. Would you say that the perception of the world of a Australian aborigine and the perception of a New Yorker are the same? Is it possible to say that one is more valid than the other? Attempting to "mix" both perspectives in one article would be very, very strange and unusual. More useful to readers will be to show both perceptions from their perspectives. That will be very interesting material, rather than a confusing mishmash of POVs. Same here. For a pious Sikh, there is no higher being than his Guru. He will compare Guru with God, sing the glory of the Guru, pray to his Guru, etc. For a secular person living in Paris, these statements could be seen as ridiculously backward. So, how do you present an article on this subject in NPOV? By clearly making a distinction. This issue is one that most Westerners have a problem with. We somehow think (with no little amount of arrogance, IMO) that our Western perspective is the only one. Now, Wikipedia is not an Western encyclopedia, thank god. This is what is so wonderful about this project. -- Zappaz 16:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not challenging you on your knowledge of hinduism, but your sometimes innacurate assertions of fact. -- Zappaz 22:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I do not fundamentally oppose separating coherent perspectives into sections, like sociological perspectives, Sant Mat perspective, Saiva perspective, Vaishnava perspective, but I strongly oppose to using such vague and inaccurate classifications as "Eastern" and "Western" as a basis for making sections in this article. The "Western view" is certainly not a coherent perspective. Even the "Hindu view" cannot be treated as a coherent perspective because there is too much variation between the different schools, sects etc. Andries 14:48, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Andries, what from the text below is from Kranenborg's book and what are your additions. The sentences I am referring to are in bold. Also, explain what is the meaning of last point. It does not make sense. Thanks -- Zappaz 22:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with using that article article by Dr. Georg Feuerstein as a basis for this article because I think it is flimsy in contrast to some of his other writings and above all because he uses some unusual tautological definitions of a guru/spiritual teachers. For example he writes.
This is in sharp contradiction with the understanding of mainstream Hinduism that puts greats emphasis on morality and that its warnings that there are false and incompetent gurus who exploit their followers. Elsewhere Feuerstein writes that there are gurus exploit their followers. Andries 13:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Picking and choosing quotations out of context is not an acceptable manner to cite authors. Later in the day, I will come back and review your edits. I warn you again, Andries, that WP is not a place for advocacy. As I said, if you want to express your opinions in this matter and/or advocate against gurus without being challenged, go ahead and publish your thoughts in a blog, a wiki or a website. If it is good material, we may even link it from here ... :) -- Zappaz 19:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Goethean for cleaning up this section. It reads much better now. -- Zappaz 22:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Although I am always for being bold in editing, I find Andries unilateral masive editing and deletion of text inapproriate and lacking in consensus. I am reverting all these edits. Go slow Andries, and excplain your reasons for each edit.. -- Zappaz 16:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Andries, please note that WP is not a place of advocacy of any kind. If you want to advocate against Gurus and warn the public about the dangers you see, or to tell your personal story, you have all right to do that but not in WP. Get a website or even your own wiki for that. Thank you. -- Zappaz 17:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is the problem, Andries ... your need to advocate blinds you. In an article about Paper money, how much of that article needs to be dedicated to Counterfeit money? -- Zappaz 22:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I repeat: WP is not a place for advocay and not a place for you, or anybody else for that natter to save people from suffering. Regarding your extensive edits, I do not have much time today, but rest assure that I will come back and clean up after you. I find your attitude of unilaterally editing to be disingenous and lacking in manners. --
Zappaz 15:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry Andries, your advocacy is creating havoc in this and other articles. This is unacceptable. I have no other way than to revert again all your edits, and I will continue to do the allowed times: 3 times in 24hrs, until you consider editing collaborativelly and seeking consensus before making substantial changes to an article that was stable for months.-- Zappaz 16:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is not about "who's version" prevails. Note that the previous version was not my version. And theres is not point to discuss issues related to your version. This article does not belong to you... The issue at hand is one of consensus NPOV writing vs. advocacy against or for "gurus". Regarding your extensive comments, if you want to play by the rules, please state each one concisely and let's discuss them. -- Zappaz 20:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not - (my highlights) -- Zappaz 21:01, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not here to impress anyone. Your combative attitude is not helping here. The version you took apart is NOT my version. Is a version arrived by a multitude edits over a period of months by many editors. Please don't play the naive with me. Your anti-guru advocacy is known to anyone that has followed your edits, and can read your own words above. Your deletion of text, your shifting around the text to portray your anti-guru POV is totally unencyclopedic and unfair. Your "pick-and-chose" citations and anything but POV, and your attempt to stuff the text as a later thought to claim "I have added information", is just a game that I will not accept. Period. And I am absolutely serious in challenging you on this. --
Zappaz 23:04, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Listen, Andries, playing unilaterally will take you nowhere... You see, I can come tomorrow and excise the whole text about Eastern perspecive and spawn it into its own article. What will you do then? Revert my edits, wouldn't you? Put an RfC? If you want to work together, then revert back to the last version by Goethean and come here to discuss the changes. Thank you and good night. -- Zappaz 23:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank God for a new day...
-- Zappaz 07:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unacceptable editing behavior. I tried to incorporate your additional texts, but you are unilaterally making too many edits that substatially change an article that was worked on by many editors before you. This is totally unacceptable behavior. This is about collabrative editing. I ask of you again: Discuss substantial changes to the article here, and seek consensus before proceeding. Until you accept to play by the rules, my activities on this article will be as follows:
I replied to your proposal about restructuring already and presented my reasons why it is a poor idea. I also suggested to bring this issue to RfC. You ignored this and acted unilaterally. The fact that you went ahead with the change without seeking consensus, shows your contemmpt for collaborative editing. As I said, until you relent, I will revert your changes throughout the maximum allowed eachy day, and at night I will attempt to incorporate new text that is worthy of inclusion into the article as it was before your restructuring. Note that I am not only oppossing your restructuring, I am opposing your attempt to make this article an anti-guru article as a mean to advocate your POV that gurus are "dangerous". This is an outrageous disregard for the reverence that millions of people profess for their Gurus, in Hinduism, Skihism, and Budhism and a blatant disregard for the no-advocacy of WP. Have a good day. -- Zappaz 21:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you presented to RfC, how come you don't announce this here? That is disingenous. If you were not impressed by my rebuttal, then you engage me in a conversation about it. That is what we do here at WP: we discuss, give and take, collaborate. I am with you that the aspects of false gurus is both fascinating and worthy of study (I mysefl added tet from Gita regarding this aspect), but it needs to be placed in the correct context, and a minority viewpoint it needs a worthy mention but no more. After all you don't define something by what is not. At ninght I will attempt to incorporate your text additions (some of which are very good, btw) to the original structure. -- Zappaz 22:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course it is a minority! Your attitude is exactly what I am dsiputing: The attitude that a Western viewpoint can override other viewpoints in which the West is clearly a minority. -- Zappaz 22:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hope I did not leave out any valuable new text added by Andries. -- Zappaz 02:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Andries, for chosing to collaborate. It is appreciated. Regarding your latest edit, I am 90% OK with it, I will make some minor changes later on that I will fully substantiante here. -- Zappaz 15:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here they are my edits of today:
Some other issues/concerns:
-- Zappaz 15:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If after taking the "spiritual crucible" you find out that your guru charges money for membership, lives an unethical lifestyle, self-proclaims his mastership, encourages proselytizing, alleges to be God-incarnated, emphasizes pre-rational practices, and demands total obedience, it can be assumed that you're on the wrong path and that your guru is a charlatan. On the other hand, if your guru/path scores positively in all areas (such an accomplishment, by the way, is rare), then you are very fortunate to have been led to a beneficial and legitimate spiritual movement.
A Western perspective and a Eastern perspective is a very needed distinction. We assess our world around based on the cultural context from which we observe. Would you say that the perception of the world of a Australian aborigine and the perception of a New Yorker are the same? Is it possible to say that one is more valid than the other? Attempting to "mix" both perspectives in one article would be very, very strange and unusual. More useful to readers will be to show both perceptions from their perspectives. That will be very interesting material, rather than a confusing mishmash of POVs. Same here. For a pious Sikh, there is no higher being than his Guru. He will compare Guru with God, sing the glory of the Guru, pray to his Guru, etc. For a secular person living in Paris, these statements could be seen as ridiculously backward. So, how do you present an article on this subject in NPOV? By clearly making a distinction. This issue is one that most Westerners have a problem with. We somehow think (with no little amount of arrogance, IMO) that our Western perspective is the only one. Now, Wikipedia is not an Western encyclopedia, thank god. This is what is so wonderful about this project. --Zappaz 16:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1 Guru in Hinduism
2 Guru in Buddhism
3 Guru in Sikhism
4 A taxonomy of gurus
5 "Guru" in a Western culture context
6 Other uses of the word 'Guru'
There is no such thing as a "Western perspective" or "Eastern perspective". There is a perspective of the followers of bhakti movements, Christians, Skeptics, humanists, traditional Hindus, Radhasoami adepts etc. regardless where they were born and grew up. Some Indians are skeptics. Is that an Eastern persective? Some Westerners follow bhakti movements. Is that a Western perspective? Very artificial and very inaccurate to use the terms Western and Eastern perspective and context. Andries 17:41, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1 Guru in Hinduism
2 Guru in Buddhism
3 Guru in Sikhism
4 A taxonomy of gurus
5 Gurus in the West and their European and American followers
6 Additional meanings in contemporary western usage
7 Assessment of the guru's authenticity and criticism
8 List of gurus independent from traditional religions
9 Other Uses of the word 'Guru'
vs.
One editor changed the RfC notice to say that it was several editors against one, and assigning a position to those multiple opponents. This dispute appears to be between just two editors. The comment has since been corrected. - Willmcw 22:53, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, can you please find out in what book by Feuerstein his article Understanding the guru was published? Thanks Andries 22:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, an introduction to quotes should be neutral. The POV should be in the quote, not in the the introduction of the quote. I consider the following introduction of Feuerstein's quote as an unacceptable endorsement of his very subjective view.
A more NPOV introduction would be
or
Andries 07:12, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I want to emphasize that the extensive quotes from Feuerstein's article promote a highly subjective point of view on gurus that is non-mainstream in the Western world. I admit that this view should be represented but in a section about "Gurus in a Western context" it deserves less prominence than for example Deutsch' or van der Lans' point of view. Deutsch published his article in several psychiatric journals and a book published by the APA. Van der Lans was an internationally respect professor in the psychology of religion. Andries 11:41, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz,
Zappaz,
You changed the sub section title from
into
Hereunder I will show show that the section contains a significant amount of assessment of gurus and not just criticism and that hence the title that you propose is inaccurate
Andries 21:10, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Back to square one, Andries. Your edits are totally unacceptable for all the reasons discussed ad-nauseum above. Reverted. Can we just have an article about Gurus without any slant neither pro or anti? And don't tell me that you are writing within NPOV, because you are not. Period. I am trying to reach consensus, but it seems that you are not interested. This is becaming unglamorous, tedious and a waste of my time. -- Zappaz 15:16, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Rick Ross? What this has to do with Rick Ross? He is a deprogrammer that was found guilty of abducting a person and that charges money to families to extract people from alleged cults. The article on Rick Ross can be discussed there. Here we are discussing this article.
Andries, this is not about making "concessions". This is about not editorializing and not using this article for advocacy either pro or con. I will look into the article again, as dispassionately as I can, to see if there is a way out. -- Zappaz 23:00, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just read the article, and you know what I think? That the Western section is 90% critical of gurus; and that the size of that section in comparison with the rest of the article is way to big. When actually there are many people in the West that think and feel different. I would add any Westerner that is a Buddhist, for example. How are these people's POV presented in the article? What about scholars that do not write critically about the guru? If there is a concession to be made, is to add text to the Western section that presents the other side of the coin that the one offered by skeptics, anti-cultists and anti-guru secular scholars. We should work on that. -- Zappaz 23:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cite sources ( citation): provide references that help the reader to check the veracity of the article and to find more information. Good citations are critical to help make Wikipedia trusted and useful. If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite. If you are writing from your own knowledge, then you should know enough to identify good references that the reader can consult on the subject—you will not be around forever to answer questions. (Also, this forces you to check your facts, and you might find that you do not know everything.) The main point is to help the reader—cite whatever you think will be most helpful. This applies when writing about opinions, as well—beware the temptation to write weasel phrases like, "Some people say..." Who said it, and where and when? (Remember that Wikipedia is not for your opinions or for original research.) This applies even when the information is currently undisputed — even if there is no dispute right now, someone might come along in five years and want to dispute, verify, or learn more about a topic. For disputed claims, it is extremely helpful to have a citation so that the issue can either be investigated (by readers) or resolved (by the Wikipedia editing community).
It is helpelss, Goethean. Andries is unable to listen. His agenda is clear and he is one of these that will spent an inordenate number of hours in WP just to advocate his point of view, robing the fun of editing WP. I am tired of it and I had enough of his game. -- Zappaz 15:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You don't seem understand what Goethean and I are saying. Yes, there are people critics of gurus (duh!) but to have such a large section in which only these critics are cited and in which only "juicy" excerpts are displayed, is blatant advocacy and using WP as a soapbox. It will be sufficient to say that there are some authors that are critical of gurus, that France enacted anti-cult legislation that included groups led by gurus, and that gurus, by its own definition, is a role that is not clearly understood in a western context. Period. That is enough, NPOV and a fair exposition of the controversy. The split proposed is NOT a POV split because (a) we will have a good summary here and (b) the article will benefit from it -- Zappaz 16:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Let me give you an example, Andries. Will it be NPOV to use 50% of the article about Pope to write about the criticism of the Pope? There are many people that they do not approve of the anti-abortion, anti-gay policy of the church. If I do that to the Pope article I will be crucified (pun intended). So,. you will not get away with a simlar thing here. Yes, there are people critical of gurus, OK. But it is POV to pik and chose citations from anti-guru authors and use 50% of the article for that. -- Zappaz 16:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will add more text about gurus in a western context, that is not critical "picks". Until then, This section deserves a disputed tag. BTW, your other edits in the Hindu section are also POV and have been reverted again. - Zappaz 18:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a Hindu view on the guru business
Andries 05:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From a German website about Asia [5]
Andries 05:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dutch Expression: "Geen goeroe zonder giro", meaning "No guru without bank account"
Andries 05:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Zappaz 15:13, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, you use all kinds of arguments that you break yourself when it suits you. Hereabove I gave two examples i.e. Rick Ross and the section "Devotees views on Guru and God". And I have noticed that you have done this more often. You should ask yourself what this means.You can have an opinion about cults and NRMs but please try to remain fair and reasonable when editing Wikipedia. Ed Poor does a better job than you in this respect.
Andries 15:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since this page is on my watchlist I can't help noticing the large nymber of reverts in the last few days. Page protection may be helpful to quiet down the situation. - Willmcw 19:58, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
The two are not exclusive.- Willmcw 20:03, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
I have also requested mediation
That is not the way you request mediation. -- Zappaz 20:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have requested that the article be protected as well as seek mediation to break the deadlock. -- Zappaz 20:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
4th revert in a 24-hr period by Andries. Requested ban. -- Zappaz 20:53, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Three-revert rule If you violate the three-revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24 hours, sysops may block you for up to 24 hours. In the cases where multiple parties violate the rule, administrators should treat all sides equally.
Proving once more Andries disregard for WP policy. -- Zappaz 20:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
These are the most notable gurus in the West and seven of 10 twelve (58%) were involved in serious scandal and controversy. But still
user:Zappaz says that a large section of criticsm in the section about gurus in the West is against NPOV guidelines. This is a list of the most notable and popular gurus in the West and not a selection of controversial ones. Allegations and controversies are in bold and in some cases mere allegations and not proven facts.
So that means that 3 5 out of 10 12 (41%) notable gurus in the West are relatively uncontroversial as a person. This proves my point that gurus in the West are very controversial.
Andries 21:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And even Vivekananda, the first guru who came to West has become suspect because of the controversy with regard's to his guru Ramakrishna's playing with the genitals of his close followers with his toes during trance. Allegedly because Ramakrishna himself was sexually abused in his youth. [10] very sad. Andries 21:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(UTC)
I also would like to draw attention to the fact that the criticisms comes from many different sources (Lane, van der Lans, Storr, Premanand, Kovoor, Narsimhaiah) and I tried to summarize as much as possible. For example, the article only mentions three points out of 7 of Lane's article and it summarized Storr's whole book about gurus in one paragraph. In contrast, the long quote by Feuerstein has hardly been summarized. Andries 23:38, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the list presented above, I do not know what is its purpose, (Also, you forgot to add the Dalai Lama to your list and thousands others that do not make it to the news). The discussion is not about controversial gurus, the discussion is about an article that has 50% of it dedicated to criticism of gurus in the West by a small group of scholars and your pick and chosing citations tactics to advocate against gurus. BTW, to almost every thing you have listed you can add the word "alleged", and most of these allegations are made by anti-cultists and/or apostates who's testimony has been challeged quite extensively as you know. For each allegation there we can find 1,000's of people stating the contrary. So, yes, there is controversy, but that is not the issue we are discussing!. In your way of thinking we could go to the article about Catholicism, add a section named "Sexual misconduct of priests in the USA" and use 50% of the space in the article for that. Go try it... claim NPOV, claim whatever you want...but it will not stick because that is not the way NPOV works. Same here. Get it?
For a reminder of what we are discussing here, read the request for mediation summary. I am tired of repeating myself. -- Zappaz 23:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the list above, you better add the disclaimer "alleged" before each one of these statements. Although this is a talk page, please remain civil and don't write allegations as facts. Thanks. (If you don't do it, I will delete the list.) -- Zappaz 23:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More bad manners? Please do not change the tags. Selective inclusion of information is the same as factual innacuracy. This is my last communication with you until some one comes and mediates. I had enough of your stuborness, lack of manners, unilateral approach, lack of willingness to seek consensus, and your use of WP for advocacy against gurus, new religions and related subjects. -- Zappaz 15:18, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mature yo say? You must be nuts to think that way! The article is a bloody NPOV disaster since you got involved, and you have the chutzpah' to keep talking as if everything is fine and no dispute is in place? BTW, Will your logic does not work. I cannot add "favorable" material. What should I write? that these many people think that guru so and so is a great person? Is that encyclopedic? is that NPOV? The fact is that this article in the current shape is not NPOV.
In regard of the list on this page, the text needs to fixed or excised from this page because as it stands its libelous and not NPOV. These pages get indexed by search engines as well and it is against WP policy to use its pages for these type of accussations. I will not allow it. -- Zappaz 22:34, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)