This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
I'm puzzled by using pyrotechnic composition as the very first description of gunpowder, for two reasons: 1) I doubt there are many people who know what a pyrotechnic composition is but don't know what gunpowder is, so it's utility in explaining gunpowder is limited. 2) From my reading of the pyrotechnic composition article, the term mainly refers to other applications than in guns. Whereas I think that guns are the primary application of gunpowder. So putting that description first seems to steer the reader away from the main meaning. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 22:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, so here's what I'd propose for the first sentence:
Gunpowder is a an explosive mixture of sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate (also known as saltpetre/saltpeter) that burns rapidly, producing volumes of hot solids and gases which can be used as a propellant in firearms and as a pyrotechnic composition in fireworks.
I think it would also be nice to have the lead explain the relationship between the terms and substances gunpowder, black powder, and smokeless powder, but I'll take this a step at at time. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 01:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I have checked a number of your sources, and they do not support your claims.
The earliest Arabic manuscripts with gunpowder recipes are two undated manuscripts, but one of them (the al-Karshuni manuscript) was dated by Berthelot and Duval to be from the ninth to the eleventh century
— Berthelot, and Duval,.p XII,.
The Karshuni MS was published in Syriac script, with a translation into French by Duval. The Karshuni Arabic text was converted into Arabic script in Aleppo by the Rev. Father Barsum on the request of the author of this paper. The Arabic text in Arabic script is still in MS form.
Potassium Nitrate was known to Arab chemists, and was described many times. The earliest description is by Khalid ibn Yazid (635-704)
— Renaud et Favé: “Du Feu Grégeois, des Feux de guerre et de la Poudre chez les Arabes, les Persans et les Chinois”
in: “Journal Asiatique”- 1849, XIV, pp.257-327
Muslims went beyond the use of the impractical ore material, and began purifying it. Science historian, George Sarton, states that Muslims were the first to purify saltpeter. He also shows that black slave labor was used in purifying saltpeter in Basra, Iraq and that those slaves rebelled in (869).
— George Sarton, Introduction to the History of Science volume 2. p.569.
XIII. Jahrh. (Diss., Berlin 1907). Martin Grabmann: Forschungen uber die lateinischen Aristoteles-Ubersetzungen des XIII. Jahrh. (Beitr. zur Gesch. der Philos. des Mittelalters, 17, 5, 297 p., Munster 1916; important; completing Jourdain). Lynn Thorndike: The Latin pseudo-Aristotle and medieval occult science (Journal of English and Germanic philology, 21, 229-258, 122; Isis, 5, 214). Martin Grabmann: Mittelalterliche lateinische Aristotelesubersetzungen und Aristoteleskommentare in Handschriften spanischer Bibliotheken (Sitzungsber. der bayer. Akad., 120 p., Munchen 1928; Isis, 13, 205). Alexandre Birkenmajer: Le role joue par les medecins et les naturalistes dans la reception d'Aristote aux XIIe et XIIIe siecles (La Pologne au VIe Congres international des sciences historiques, Oslo 1928; 15 p., Warsaw 1930; Isis, 15, 272).
F. Picavet: La science experimentale au XIIIe siecle (Le Moyen Age, 241-248, 1894; a propos of Berthelot's work). Ludwig Keller: Die Anfange der Renaissance und die Kulturgesellschaften des Humanismus im 13. und 14. Jahrhundert (Comenius Gesellschaft, vol. 11, 2, 30 p., Berlin 1903). George von Hertling: Wissenschaftliche Richtungen und philosophische Probleme des 13. Jahrhunderts (Festrede, Akad. der Wissensch., 37 p., Munchen 1910).— George Sarton, Introduction to the History of Science, volume 2, p. 569
Gunpowder was possibly invented by Muslims
— "Gunpowder." Encyclopædia Britannica, 2008. check
Sigrid Hunke, Allahs Sonne über dem Abendland 1967. Stutgart, pp. 36-37.
the first part of what you quoted "The earliest Arabic manuscripts with gunpowder recipes are two undated manuscripts" is not cited, the Berthelot & Duval's source was for what was after the comma ie. "but one of them (the al-Karshuni manuscript) was dated by Berthelot and Duval to be from the ninth to the eleventh century" and this was also cited by Ahmed Y al-Hasan check
the source contains what i cited and the very same information was also cited by Ahmed Y al-Hasan check i think you should search well my refrences, and anyway the time phase between Khaled and Jaber is fringe.
that page is clearly a refrences page and its was written in Deutsch, so can i ask you to look in the same page in the English edition!
britannica clearly states that their evidence that the invention could have been done by the Arabs and Encyclopedia Britannica is an academic and acceptable source and it can not be dismissed, when it comes to Hunke i will read the full sentense and give you the exact portion when i have access to the book-- MARVEL ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Chinese alchemists discovered the recipe for what became known as black powder in the 9th century AD....The Chinese used the substance in rockets, in pyrotechnic projectors much like Roman candles, in crude cannon, and, according to some sources, in bombs thrown by mechanical artillery. This transpired long before gunpowder was known in the West, but development in China stagnated. The development of black powder as a tactically significant weapon was left to the Europeans, who probably acquired it from the Mongols in the 13th century (though diffusion through the Arab Muslim world is also a possibility).
What follows is a side-by-side comparison of Wikipedia material and the relevant passage from the cited source:
Wikipedia | al-Hassan |
---|---|
Hasan al-Rammah's Al-furusiyyah wa al-manasib al-harbiyya (The Book of Military Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices), written in the 1270s, includes the first gunpowder recipes to approach the ideal composition for explosive gunpowder used in modern times (75% saltpetre (KNO3), 10% sulfur, 15% carbon), such as the tayyar "rocket" (75 parts saltpetre, 8 sulfur, and 15 carbon, by weight) and the tayyar buruq "lightning rocket" (74 parts saltpetre, 10 sulfur, 15 carbon). | It is reported by Hall that most authorities regard 75 percent potassium nitrate, 10 percent sulphur, and 15 percent carbon to be the best recipe. Al-Rammah’s median composition for 17 rockets is 75 nitrates, 9.06 sulphur and 15.94 carbon which is almost identical with the reported best recipe. |
Explosive hand cannons were first used by the Mamluks to repel the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260. | We have seen above that portable cannon were used by the Mamluks in 1260 in the battle of `Ayn Jalut. |
Wikipedia identifies these as "firsts" yet the cited source does not.
JFD (
talk)
05:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The point I wanted to raise is whether it is appropriate for Wikipedia to identify certain things as "firsts" when the source cited for such claims does not. JFD ( talk) 14:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article:
"[[Brown brown]] is a form of powdered cocaine, cut with gunpowder. Commonly given to child soldiers in West African armed conflicts, the gunpowder causes irritation of the bowels, which increases aggression.<ref name="IHT.com February 19"> {{cite news | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/14/america/web.0113soldier.nytMAG.php?page=3 | title=The Making, and Unmaking, of a Child Soldier | publisher=International Herald Tribune | accessdate=2007-02-19 }}</ref>"
The reason being, that unless child soldiers in Africa are shooting at each other with muskets, the "gunpowder" going into brown brown would be smokeless powder, such as the SSNF 50 contained in 7.62x39mm AK-47 rounds, and not gunpowder as described in this article.
The reference to brown brown probably belongs somewhere, but I'm not sure where, so have preserved it here. - Kieran ( talk) 03:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a problem with the way this article and the smokeless powder article are structured. In popular usage, gunpowder is used to refer to black powder and smokeless powder without distinguishing between the two, or without even knowing that there is a distinction. Right now, the lede of this article starts providing details about black powder without mentioning the difference until the body of the article. A reader who doesn't know the difference might read the lede and think he's learned something about what makes modern guns work, but be misinformed. Perhaps it's the reader's fault for not knowing what he "should know" but an encyclopedia is for the purpose of informing people who don't already know everything, so we shouldn't punish non experts who start on this page without knowing the distinction. The history of the article and the talk page give ample evidence of this problem, including the brown brown section above.
There are several ways I can think of doing this:
1) Adding a disambiguation page, and having a little italic comment at the top saying "this article is about the traditional type of gunpowder, often known as black powder. For other uses, including the modern alternative used in virtually all modern firearms, see gunpowder (disambiguation)"
2) Skip the disambig page, and re-write the lede to include description of the difference between the two, and send people right to smokeless powder rather than through a disambig page.
3) Move the content of this page to a new page titled either "gunpowder (black powder) or "black powder", and create a new article titled gunpowder that would explain the different uses of the word and the different types, and maybe have a history of the different types, and of course refer the reader to the two main articles.
I like 3 best, 2 second best, and 1 least (but it's still better than how it is now). Because 3) seems like it would certainly ruffle some feathers, I certainly don't want to do that without hearing what other people think. What do you think? Ccrrccrr ( talk) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The term "black powder" was coined in the late 19th century to distinguish prior gunpowder formulations from the new smokeless powders and semi-smokeless powders. (Semi-smokeless powders featured bulk volume properties that approximated black powder in terms of chamber pressure when used in firearms, but had significantly reduced amounts of smoke and combustion products; they ranged in color from brownish tan to yellow to white. Most of the bulk semi-smokeless powders ceased to be manufactured in the 1920's.
A disambiguation page is not a bad idea, it should include a link to Gunpowder tea aswell. /Jonas 130.243.240.244 ( talk) 20:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with a re-write and re-naming. This page is a jumble of blackpowder and smokeless powder information without making enough distinction between the two. It also assumes the term "gunpowder" means "blackpowder". It certainly did historically, but has not for probably a century. There need to be a short "Gunpowder" article, and more in-depth "Blackpowder" and "Smokeless Powder" articles. The merger of two such fundamentally different chemicals such as blackpowder and smokeless powder was a bad decision. Let's get this cleaned up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeadleB ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
It should be clarified wether the "recipe" is given by volume or by weight. There's a big difference. In chemistry it is usually by weight. 83.251.57.154 ( talk) 21:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are there no recipes by volume listed for comparison? 24.90.104.148 ( talk) 02:12, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
I'm puzzled by using pyrotechnic composition as the very first description of gunpowder, for two reasons: 1) I doubt there are many people who know what a pyrotechnic composition is but don't know what gunpowder is, so it's utility in explaining gunpowder is limited. 2) From my reading of the pyrotechnic composition article, the term mainly refers to other applications than in guns. Whereas I think that guns are the primary application of gunpowder. So putting that description first seems to steer the reader away from the main meaning. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 22:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, so here's what I'd propose for the first sentence:
Gunpowder is a an explosive mixture of sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate (also known as saltpetre/saltpeter) that burns rapidly, producing volumes of hot solids and gases which can be used as a propellant in firearms and as a pyrotechnic composition in fireworks.
I think it would also be nice to have the lead explain the relationship between the terms and substances gunpowder, black powder, and smokeless powder, but I'll take this a step at at time. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 01:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I have checked a number of your sources, and they do not support your claims.
The earliest Arabic manuscripts with gunpowder recipes are two undated manuscripts, but one of them (the al-Karshuni manuscript) was dated by Berthelot and Duval to be from the ninth to the eleventh century
— Berthelot, and Duval,.p XII,.
The Karshuni MS was published in Syriac script, with a translation into French by Duval. The Karshuni Arabic text was converted into Arabic script in Aleppo by the Rev. Father Barsum on the request of the author of this paper. The Arabic text in Arabic script is still in MS form.
Potassium Nitrate was known to Arab chemists, and was described many times. The earliest description is by Khalid ibn Yazid (635-704)
— Renaud et Favé: “Du Feu Grégeois, des Feux de guerre et de la Poudre chez les Arabes, les Persans et les Chinois”
in: “Journal Asiatique”- 1849, XIV, pp.257-327
Muslims went beyond the use of the impractical ore material, and began purifying it. Science historian, George Sarton, states that Muslims were the first to purify saltpeter. He also shows that black slave labor was used in purifying saltpeter in Basra, Iraq and that those slaves rebelled in (869).
— George Sarton, Introduction to the History of Science volume 2. p.569.
XIII. Jahrh. (Diss., Berlin 1907). Martin Grabmann: Forschungen uber die lateinischen Aristoteles-Ubersetzungen des XIII. Jahrh. (Beitr. zur Gesch. der Philos. des Mittelalters, 17, 5, 297 p., Munster 1916; important; completing Jourdain). Lynn Thorndike: The Latin pseudo-Aristotle and medieval occult science (Journal of English and Germanic philology, 21, 229-258, 122; Isis, 5, 214). Martin Grabmann: Mittelalterliche lateinische Aristotelesubersetzungen und Aristoteleskommentare in Handschriften spanischer Bibliotheken (Sitzungsber. der bayer. Akad., 120 p., Munchen 1928; Isis, 13, 205). Alexandre Birkenmajer: Le role joue par les medecins et les naturalistes dans la reception d'Aristote aux XIIe et XIIIe siecles (La Pologne au VIe Congres international des sciences historiques, Oslo 1928; 15 p., Warsaw 1930; Isis, 15, 272).
F. Picavet: La science experimentale au XIIIe siecle (Le Moyen Age, 241-248, 1894; a propos of Berthelot's work). Ludwig Keller: Die Anfange der Renaissance und die Kulturgesellschaften des Humanismus im 13. und 14. Jahrhundert (Comenius Gesellschaft, vol. 11, 2, 30 p., Berlin 1903). George von Hertling: Wissenschaftliche Richtungen und philosophische Probleme des 13. Jahrhunderts (Festrede, Akad. der Wissensch., 37 p., Munchen 1910).— George Sarton, Introduction to the History of Science, volume 2, p. 569
Gunpowder was possibly invented by Muslims
— "Gunpowder." Encyclopædia Britannica, 2008. check
Sigrid Hunke, Allahs Sonne über dem Abendland 1967. Stutgart, pp. 36-37.
the first part of what you quoted "The earliest Arabic manuscripts with gunpowder recipes are two undated manuscripts" is not cited, the Berthelot & Duval's source was for what was after the comma ie. "but one of them (the al-Karshuni manuscript) was dated by Berthelot and Duval to be from the ninth to the eleventh century" and this was also cited by Ahmed Y al-Hasan check
the source contains what i cited and the very same information was also cited by Ahmed Y al-Hasan check i think you should search well my refrences, and anyway the time phase between Khaled and Jaber is fringe.
that page is clearly a refrences page and its was written in Deutsch, so can i ask you to look in the same page in the English edition!
britannica clearly states that their evidence that the invention could have been done by the Arabs and Encyclopedia Britannica is an academic and acceptable source and it can not be dismissed, when it comes to Hunke i will read the full sentense and give you the exact portion when i have access to the book-- MARVEL ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Chinese alchemists discovered the recipe for what became known as black powder in the 9th century AD....The Chinese used the substance in rockets, in pyrotechnic projectors much like Roman candles, in crude cannon, and, according to some sources, in bombs thrown by mechanical artillery. This transpired long before gunpowder was known in the West, but development in China stagnated. The development of black powder as a tactically significant weapon was left to the Europeans, who probably acquired it from the Mongols in the 13th century (though diffusion through the Arab Muslim world is also a possibility).
What follows is a side-by-side comparison of Wikipedia material and the relevant passage from the cited source:
Wikipedia | al-Hassan |
---|---|
Hasan al-Rammah's Al-furusiyyah wa al-manasib al-harbiyya (The Book of Military Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices), written in the 1270s, includes the first gunpowder recipes to approach the ideal composition for explosive gunpowder used in modern times (75% saltpetre (KNO3), 10% sulfur, 15% carbon), such as the tayyar "rocket" (75 parts saltpetre, 8 sulfur, and 15 carbon, by weight) and the tayyar buruq "lightning rocket" (74 parts saltpetre, 10 sulfur, 15 carbon). | It is reported by Hall that most authorities regard 75 percent potassium nitrate, 10 percent sulphur, and 15 percent carbon to be the best recipe. Al-Rammah’s median composition for 17 rockets is 75 nitrates, 9.06 sulphur and 15.94 carbon which is almost identical with the reported best recipe. |
Explosive hand cannons were first used by the Mamluks to repel the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260. | We have seen above that portable cannon were used by the Mamluks in 1260 in the battle of `Ayn Jalut. |
Wikipedia identifies these as "firsts" yet the cited source does not.
JFD (
talk)
05:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The point I wanted to raise is whether it is appropriate for Wikipedia to identify certain things as "firsts" when the source cited for such claims does not. JFD ( talk) 14:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article:
"[[Brown brown]] is a form of powdered cocaine, cut with gunpowder. Commonly given to child soldiers in West African armed conflicts, the gunpowder causes irritation of the bowels, which increases aggression.<ref name="IHT.com February 19"> {{cite news | url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/14/america/web.0113soldier.nytMAG.php?page=3 | title=The Making, and Unmaking, of a Child Soldier | publisher=International Herald Tribune | accessdate=2007-02-19 }}</ref>"
The reason being, that unless child soldiers in Africa are shooting at each other with muskets, the "gunpowder" going into brown brown would be smokeless powder, such as the SSNF 50 contained in 7.62x39mm AK-47 rounds, and not gunpowder as described in this article.
The reference to brown brown probably belongs somewhere, but I'm not sure where, so have preserved it here. - Kieran ( talk) 03:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a problem with the way this article and the smokeless powder article are structured. In popular usage, gunpowder is used to refer to black powder and smokeless powder without distinguishing between the two, or without even knowing that there is a distinction. Right now, the lede of this article starts providing details about black powder without mentioning the difference until the body of the article. A reader who doesn't know the difference might read the lede and think he's learned something about what makes modern guns work, but be misinformed. Perhaps it's the reader's fault for not knowing what he "should know" but an encyclopedia is for the purpose of informing people who don't already know everything, so we shouldn't punish non experts who start on this page without knowing the distinction. The history of the article and the talk page give ample evidence of this problem, including the brown brown section above.
There are several ways I can think of doing this:
1) Adding a disambiguation page, and having a little italic comment at the top saying "this article is about the traditional type of gunpowder, often known as black powder. For other uses, including the modern alternative used in virtually all modern firearms, see gunpowder (disambiguation)"
2) Skip the disambig page, and re-write the lede to include description of the difference between the two, and send people right to smokeless powder rather than through a disambig page.
3) Move the content of this page to a new page titled either "gunpowder (black powder) or "black powder", and create a new article titled gunpowder that would explain the different uses of the word and the different types, and maybe have a history of the different types, and of course refer the reader to the two main articles.
I like 3 best, 2 second best, and 1 least (but it's still better than how it is now). Because 3) seems like it would certainly ruffle some feathers, I certainly don't want to do that without hearing what other people think. What do you think? Ccrrccrr ( talk) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The term "black powder" was coined in the late 19th century to distinguish prior gunpowder formulations from the new smokeless powders and semi-smokeless powders. (Semi-smokeless powders featured bulk volume properties that approximated black powder in terms of chamber pressure when used in firearms, but had significantly reduced amounts of smoke and combustion products; they ranged in color from brownish tan to yellow to white. Most of the bulk semi-smokeless powders ceased to be manufactured in the 1920's.
A disambiguation page is not a bad idea, it should include a link to Gunpowder tea aswell. /Jonas 130.243.240.244 ( talk) 20:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with a re-write and re-naming. This page is a jumble of blackpowder and smokeless powder information without making enough distinction between the two. It also assumes the term "gunpowder" means "blackpowder". It certainly did historically, but has not for probably a century. There need to be a short "Gunpowder" article, and more in-depth "Blackpowder" and "Smokeless Powder" articles. The merger of two such fundamentally different chemicals such as blackpowder and smokeless powder was a bad decision. Let's get this cleaned up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeadleB ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
It should be clarified wether the "recipe" is given by volume or by weight. There's a big difference. In chemistry it is usually by weight. 83.251.57.154 ( talk) 21:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are there no recipes by volume listed for comparison? 24.90.104.148 ( talk) 02:12, 11 July 2015 (UTC)