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The article, as previously written, stated that: "The United States has the highest rate of gun ownership of any country of the world, with an estimated 88.8 guns per 100 people as of 2007..."
But this is misleading because the number of guns per 100 people doesn't tell people what percentage of private citizens actually own guns. If the average gun owner had 8.88 guns then the rate would be 10%. If the average gun owner owned 88.8 guys then the rate would be 1%.
I've changed it to read: "The United States has the highest number of privately owned guns per capita of any country of the world, with an estimated 88.8 guns per 100 people as of 2007..." - 2003:CA:83CF:F200:D03E:734E:DC84:B25 ( talk) 14:09, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
This list is based on the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report, is fully referenced with links to the actual June 2018, Small Arms Survey report. Please see... http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/Weapons_and_Markets/Tools/Firearms_holdings/SAS-BP-Civilian-held-firearms-annexe.pdf. User:MarkDennehy, the numbers that you are using for Ireland are unreferenced 2014 numbers. If you can provide current Wikipedia:Inline citation that would be fine. Otherwise, I will restore the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report numbers. -- RAF910 ( talk) 18:27, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
See : /info/en/?search=Talk:Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country#Ireland As was quoted earlier. I'm not trying to be a smartarse; these figures are actually out of whack. As I said then: "The Irish figure given by the Small Arms Survey 2007 of 8.6 is wildly inaccurate for three reasons: 1) It uses the total number of firarms legally held in Ireland in 2005 2) It uses the population of Ireland in 2005 3) It includes an estimate of 150,000 illegally held firearms before calculating its number of firearms held by civilians per capita."
When you read the Small Arms Survey you find that the researchers _literally_ invented 150,000 firearms which they claim are held here illegally despite every real source of information in this country saying that they have no basis in fact. That was the case in 2016 when the last figures for the number of firearms owned by civilians was presented by the head of the Garda Firearms Policy Unit to the Oireachtas Joint Commmittee on Justice - the cited source for the figures I've provided on the other page - and remains the case today. The citations were all listed on the talk page for the Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country page - you appear to be in the process of replacing that page without reviewing that list of changes. I would suggest - again not trying to be a smartarse about it, updated figures are always good - that this is not going to lead to more accurate figures.
To illustrate why this isn't a very simple set of figures to put together, your primary source here -- the Small Arms Survey -- counts the number of things the country involved calls firearms under their laws and says that is how many small arms are in the country. This sounds grand, until you learn that some countries do not have the same legal definition for the term "firearm" as others do. In Ireland, for example, airguns are classed as firearms. In the UK, they are not, nor in most of Europe, when below a certain muzzle energy limit. Also classed as firearms here are things like pepper spray, tasers, crossbows of any kind, paintball markers, night vision scopes or thermal scopes designed to be attached to a firearm, and any and all constituent parts of a firearm. So our official number of firearms is actually much higher than it would be if it were prepared under, say, German law or UK law. MarkDennehy ( talk) 18:41, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
I've taken this discussion to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard since it is going nowhere here.-- RAF910 ( talk) 21:32, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
As listed above, RAF910 deleted an entire page with several years of work attached to it and replaced it with a straight copy of a more recent report whose contents have been questioned and corrected in the past due to inaccuracies. This was done without any attempt to consult on the talk page of the prior page. While the data being proposed is from a more recent publication, there appear to still be serious issues with its accuracy on precisely the same grounds as for earlier version of this publication. Attempts to discuss this have been confrontational in nature from the beginning and external opinions would be of use for a constructive outcome. MarkDennehy ( talk) 17:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Merge the Estimated number of guns per capita by country page into the Gun ownership page....The " Estimated number of guns per capita by country" page is based on the 2007, Small Arms Survey report, it is now badly out-of-date (over 10 years) and frankly not salvageable. Therefore, I recommend that it be redirected to the " Gun ownership" page, which has which has a far more comprehensive and up-to-date list, taken from the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report. This page includes "Estimate of firearms in civilian possession", "Population 2017", and "Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons" in a sort-able table. Whereas the Estimated number of guns per capita by country table only includes "Civilian-held firearms per 100 population".
This is an extension of the content dispute in the above section, and adds to the
WP:BLUDGEONing problem. Per
WP:STATUSQUO I have reverted the page to the last stable (14:56, 28 May 2018) version before this content dispute. Again, I suggest that both of you read
Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process, stop responding to each other, and wait to see if any other editors weigh in. --
Guy Macon (
talk)
22:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
PLEASE NOTE: This discussion is related to the previous version of this page, that was revert by User:Guy Macon (see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Gun_ownership&oldid=848251387 ), which is being discussed above in the previous section, Not the current version. User:BrandonALF has already made that mistake above-- RAF910 ( talk) 19:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) It looks like we both want to merge the civilian-owned firearms lists. So if this were done, why not put it on a separate list page? List pages are normal. See the guns section below. The list page has long been listed on "Lists of countries by laws and law enforcement rankings". The civilian guns list has been on the list navbox since the navigation box was first created on June 26, 2009:
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 23:29, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I have restored to the page to the previous version. All other discussions are off topic and nothing more than a distraction in order to prevent a fair an honest merger discussion. -- RAF910 ( talk) 16:09, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#/media/File:2010_gun_homicide_rates_in_high-income_countries.png B. Fairbairn ( talk) 22:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Same page ranks the USA as 94 with a homicide rate 5.35...while Russia is ranked as 42 with a homicide rate 10.82. The murder rate in Russia is twice that of the USA. Therefore, the statement/quote is patently false. This information is taken from the List of countries by intentional homicide rate. The very page that you provided to prove your point, actually proves that your wrong.-- RAF910 ( talk) 22:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Are both countries developed nations? B. Fairbairn ( talk) 23:15, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
1.000–0.800 (very high) 0.700–0.799 (high) 0.555–0.699 (medium) | 0.350–0.554 (low) Data unavailable |
References
The 94/42 table shows murder rate, not firearm homicide rate. B. Fairbairn ( talk) 23:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Back on the talk topic, the US has roughly 5 times the population of the UK, 25 times the gun ownership (from above) and yet nearly 75 times the homicide rate. Drop the number of guns, and the number of homicide, suicide and accidental deaths drops. Unfortunately the NRA and other gun enthusiast groups do not care. B. Fairbairn ( talk) 07:34, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
And:"Swiss firearm ownership increased between 2002 and 2007 Small Arms Surveys because military rifles were released to the public due to drastic army size reductions"
In addition, I personally do have evidence that "gun ownership is related to homicide rates -- especially total homicide rates as opposed to homicides committed with guns??" as requested by Guy Macon. Specifically, Hoskin (2001) found:"...the nationally representative survey data finds that only 2% of households opt to keep an army gun post-service. Some cantons allow reservists to keep their service-issued guns in local gun depots and unit arsenals rather than inside their homes, but reservists in cantons without local depots were required to keep their guns at home."
[1] IntoThinAir ( talk) 16:53, 6 October 2018 (UTC)"a statistically significant positive effect of firearm availability on national homicide rates".
Feast your eyes on these figures, fellow-wikipedians. Death by firearm per 100,000 people according to https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/death-by-gun-top-20-states-with-highest-rates/21/
Death by firearm per 100,100 people according to /info/en/?search=List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Some more reading - "GunPolicy.org estimates that in 2010 there were 3.78 guns per 100 people in the UK, while the US, meanwhile, is estimated to have 101 guns per 100 people. The result has been roughly 50 to 60 gun deaths a year in England and Wales, which have a population of 56 million. Compare that to the US, a country about six times as large that has more than 160 times as many gun-related homicides." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/gun-deaths-eliminated-america-learn-japan-australia-uk-norway-florida-shooting-latest-news-a8216301.html B. Fairbairn ( talk) 00:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Here are the numbers without the POV pushing cherry picking, including the countries where deaths, guns, or death/gun ratio are especially high or low.
Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population
Guns per 100,000 population
As one would expect, countries with very low gun ownership have very low gun-related deaths, but other than that, the numbers are all over the map.
Countries with less than 1 gun per 1,000 people: (0.1%)
Countries with more than than 100 guns per 1,000 people: (10%)
Instead of focusing on number of guns or on economic development we should figure out what Norway (1.75 deaths, 31,300 guns) is doing right and Venezuela (59.13 deaths, 10,700 guns) is doing wrong. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:40, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
A paragraph comparing gun incidents in the US and UK has been removed twice [2] [3] as "cited to an opinion article". Oddly, the BBC source in question leads to an error page. It may be helpful to try to track down the source before labelling it as an opinion piece. Pinging B. Fairbairn who originally added this. – dlthewave ☎ 15:31, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Propose Strike "Studies have shown that 36.3% of people had access to a gun and 5% carried the gun with them. However 7.3% stored their guns in an unsafe place. Certain people have blamed individuals with mental disorders for being dangerous and violent with the use of guns. Nonetheless, other studies have been conducted and show that 34.1% have access to guns. 4.8% carry a gun with them and 6.2% store the gun in an unsafe manner. The statistics show that gun ownership is significantly high in both sets of individuals, however, none of the figures show people with a mental illness are as dangerous with guns than people with perfect mental health.[15]" from the article. Since this is more of world perspective article and this section is more focused on associations of gun violence with rates of ownership, there needs to be a new section on mental health or removed for this article. TauGuys ( talk) 13:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a scatter plot in the article which you can find by searching for its caption: "Multiple studies show that where people have easy access to firearms, gun-related deaths tend to be more frequent, including by suicide, homicide and unintentional injuries.".
The graph has several problems:
1. The graph doesn't present any meaningful relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide because it lacks a correlation coefficient. If anything, the variety of outcomes in the cluster of "35 other developed countries" contradicts the claim made in the caption.
2. It's too US-centric. This is an article about gun ownership broadly, not in the USA specifically. It only has two labels: USA, and 35 unspecified developed countries. 47.28.233.46 ( talk) 06:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article, as previously written, stated that: "The United States has the highest rate of gun ownership of any country of the world, with an estimated 88.8 guns per 100 people as of 2007..."
But this is misleading because the number of guns per 100 people doesn't tell people what percentage of private citizens actually own guns. If the average gun owner had 8.88 guns then the rate would be 10%. If the average gun owner owned 88.8 guys then the rate would be 1%.
I've changed it to read: "The United States has the highest number of privately owned guns per capita of any country of the world, with an estimated 88.8 guns per 100 people as of 2007..." - 2003:CA:83CF:F200:D03E:734E:DC84:B25 ( talk) 14:09, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
This list is based on the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report, is fully referenced with links to the actual June 2018, Small Arms Survey report. Please see... http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/Weapons_and_Markets/Tools/Firearms_holdings/SAS-BP-Civilian-held-firearms-annexe.pdf. User:MarkDennehy, the numbers that you are using for Ireland are unreferenced 2014 numbers. If you can provide current Wikipedia:Inline citation that would be fine. Otherwise, I will restore the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report numbers. -- RAF910 ( talk) 18:27, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
See : /info/en/?search=Talk:Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country#Ireland As was quoted earlier. I'm not trying to be a smartarse; these figures are actually out of whack. As I said then: "The Irish figure given by the Small Arms Survey 2007 of 8.6 is wildly inaccurate for three reasons: 1) It uses the total number of firarms legally held in Ireland in 2005 2) It uses the population of Ireland in 2005 3) It includes an estimate of 150,000 illegally held firearms before calculating its number of firearms held by civilians per capita."
When you read the Small Arms Survey you find that the researchers _literally_ invented 150,000 firearms which they claim are held here illegally despite every real source of information in this country saying that they have no basis in fact. That was the case in 2016 when the last figures for the number of firearms owned by civilians was presented by the head of the Garda Firearms Policy Unit to the Oireachtas Joint Commmittee on Justice - the cited source for the figures I've provided on the other page - and remains the case today. The citations were all listed on the talk page for the Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country page - you appear to be in the process of replacing that page without reviewing that list of changes. I would suggest - again not trying to be a smartarse about it, updated figures are always good - that this is not going to lead to more accurate figures.
To illustrate why this isn't a very simple set of figures to put together, your primary source here -- the Small Arms Survey -- counts the number of things the country involved calls firearms under their laws and says that is how many small arms are in the country. This sounds grand, until you learn that some countries do not have the same legal definition for the term "firearm" as others do. In Ireland, for example, airguns are classed as firearms. In the UK, they are not, nor in most of Europe, when below a certain muzzle energy limit. Also classed as firearms here are things like pepper spray, tasers, crossbows of any kind, paintball markers, night vision scopes or thermal scopes designed to be attached to a firearm, and any and all constituent parts of a firearm. So our official number of firearms is actually much higher than it would be if it were prepared under, say, German law or UK law. MarkDennehy ( talk) 18:41, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
I've taken this discussion to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard since it is going nowhere here.-- RAF910 ( talk) 21:32, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
As listed above, RAF910 deleted an entire page with several years of work attached to it and replaced it with a straight copy of a more recent report whose contents have been questioned and corrected in the past due to inaccuracies. This was done without any attempt to consult on the talk page of the prior page. While the data being proposed is from a more recent publication, there appear to still be serious issues with its accuracy on precisely the same grounds as for earlier version of this publication. Attempts to discuss this have been confrontational in nature from the beginning and external opinions would be of use for a constructive outcome. MarkDennehy ( talk) 17:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Merge the Estimated number of guns per capita by country page into the Gun ownership page....The " Estimated number of guns per capita by country" page is based on the 2007, Small Arms Survey report, it is now badly out-of-date (over 10 years) and frankly not salvageable. Therefore, I recommend that it be redirected to the " Gun ownership" page, which has which has a far more comprehensive and up-to-date list, taken from the June 2018, Small Arms Survey report. This page includes "Estimate of firearms in civilian possession", "Population 2017", and "Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons" in a sort-able table. Whereas the Estimated number of guns per capita by country table only includes "Civilian-held firearms per 100 population".
This is an extension of the content dispute in the above section, and adds to the
WP:BLUDGEONing problem. Per
WP:STATUSQUO I have reverted the page to the last stable (14:56, 28 May 2018) version before this content dispute. Again, I suggest that both of you read
Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process, stop responding to each other, and wait to see if any other editors weigh in. --
Guy Macon (
talk)
22:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
PLEASE NOTE: This discussion is related to the previous version of this page, that was revert by User:Guy Macon (see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Gun_ownership&oldid=848251387 ), which is being discussed above in the previous section, Not the current version. User:BrandonALF has already made that mistake above-- RAF910 ( talk) 19:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
(unindent) It looks like we both want to merge the civilian-owned firearms lists. So if this were done, why not put it on a separate list page? List pages are normal. See the guns section below. The list page has long been listed on "Lists of countries by laws and law enforcement rankings". The civilian guns list has been on the list navbox since the navigation box was first created on June 26, 2009:
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 23:29, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I have restored to the page to the previous version. All other discussions are off topic and nothing more than a distraction in order to prevent a fair an honest merger discussion. -- RAF910 ( talk) 16:09, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#/media/File:2010_gun_homicide_rates_in_high-income_countries.png B. Fairbairn ( talk) 22:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Same page ranks the USA as 94 with a homicide rate 5.35...while Russia is ranked as 42 with a homicide rate 10.82. The murder rate in Russia is twice that of the USA. Therefore, the statement/quote is patently false. This information is taken from the List of countries by intentional homicide rate. The very page that you provided to prove your point, actually proves that your wrong.-- RAF910 ( talk) 22:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Are both countries developed nations? B. Fairbairn ( talk) 23:15, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
1.000–0.800 (very high) 0.700–0.799 (high) 0.555–0.699 (medium) | 0.350–0.554 (low) Data unavailable |
References
The 94/42 table shows murder rate, not firearm homicide rate. B. Fairbairn ( talk) 23:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Back on the talk topic, the US has roughly 5 times the population of the UK, 25 times the gun ownership (from above) and yet nearly 75 times the homicide rate. Drop the number of guns, and the number of homicide, suicide and accidental deaths drops. Unfortunately the NRA and other gun enthusiast groups do not care. B. Fairbairn ( talk) 07:34, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
And:"Swiss firearm ownership increased between 2002 and 2007 Small Arms Surveys because military rifles were released to the public due to drastic army size reductions"
In addition, I personally do have evidence that "gun ownership is related to homicide rates -- especially total homicide rates as opposed to homicides committed with guns??" as requested by Guy Macon. Specifically, Hoskin (2001) found:"...the nationally representative survey data finds that only 2% of households opt to keep an army gun post-service. Some cantons allow reservists to keep their service-issued guns in local gun depots and unit arsenals rather than inside their homes, but reservists in cantons without local depots were required to keep their guns at home."
[1] IntoThinAir ( talk) 16:53, 6 October 2018 (UTC)"a statistically significant positive effect of firearm availability on national homicide rates".
Feast your eyes on these figures, fellow-wikipedians. Death by firearm per 100,000 people according to https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/death-by-gun-top-20-states-with-highest-rates/21/
Death by firearm per 100,100 people according to /info/en/?search=List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Some more reading - "GunPolicy.org estimates that in 2010 there were 3.78 guns per 100 people in the UK, while the US, meanwhile, is estimated to have 101 guns per 100 people. The result has been roughly 50 to 60 gun deaths a year in England and Wales, which have a population of 56 million. Compare that to the US, a country about six times as large that has more than 160 times as many gun-related homicides." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/gun-deaths-eliminated-america-learn-japan-australia-uk-norway-florida-shooting-latest-news-a8216301.html B. Fairbairn ( talk) 00:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Here are the numbers without the POV pushing cherry picking, including the countries where deaths, guns, or death/gun ratio are especially high or low.
Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population
Guns per 100,000 population
As one would expect, countries with very low gun ownership have very low gun-related deaths, but other than that, the numbers are all over the map.
Countries with less than 1 gun per 1,000 people: (0.1%)
Countries with more than than 100 guns per 1,000 people: (10%)
Instead of focusing on number of guns or on economic development we should figure out what Norway (1.75 deaths, 31,300 guns) is doing right and Venezuela (59.13 deaths, 10,700 guns) is doing wrong. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:40, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
A paragraph comparing gun incidents in the US and UK has been removed twice [2] [3] as "cited to an opinion article". Oddly, the BBC source in question leads to an error page. It may be helpful to try to track down the source before labelling it as an opinion piece. Pinging B. Fairbairn who originally added this. – dlthewave ☎ 15:31, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Propose Strike "Studies have shown that 36.3% of people had access to a gun and 5% carried the gun with them. However 7.3% stored their guns in an unsafe place. Certain people have blamed individuals with mental disorders for being dangerous and violent with the use of guns. Nonetheless, other studies have been conducted and show that 34.1% have access to guns. 4.8% carry a gun with them and 6.2% store the gun in an unsafe manner. The statistics show that gun ownership is significantly high in both sets of individuals, however, none of the figures show people with a mental illness are as dangerous with guns than people with perfect mental health.[15]" from the article. Since this is more of world perspective article and this section is more focused on associations of gun violence with rates of ownership, there needs to be a new section on mental health or removed for this article. TauGuys ( talk) 13:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a scatter plot in the article which you can find by searching for its caption: "Multiple studies show that where people have easy access to firearms, gun-related deaths tend to be more frequent, including by suicide, homicide and unintentional injuries.".
The graph has several problems:
1. The graph doesn't present any meaningful relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide because it lacks a correlation coefficient. If anything, the variety of outcomes in the cluster of "35 other developed countries" contradicts the claim made in the caption.
2. It's too US-centric. This is an article about gun ownership broadly, not in the USA specifically. It only has two labels: USA, and 35 unspecified developed countries. 47.28.233.46 ( talk) 06:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)