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On the zionist org's article, it does not describe itself as a Scouting movement. Does it really merit inclusion on this page? Chris 02:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Chris 00:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Please change the name of this article to The Guides and Scouts Movement of Belgium instead of giving it the French name. The national Movement in Belgium officially has 3!!! names and not just the French one. Maybe we should use the English name (since this is the English wikipedia) or rename it Scouting in Belgium. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I still very, very strongly disagree. First of all, you looked on the German google. The Belgian google gives a different picture.
Other facts:
The Germanic scouts are normally seen as a part of the Walloon organisations (the Oostkantons are their own Gewest, but, with a huge influx of Walloons, is normally seen as part of the Francophone Gewest. The normally call themselves Pfadfinder Belgien. There are only a few groups in Belgium that are fully German. A few of them are part of the Flemish movement, a few of them are part of the Francophone movement and a few of them are even part of the German movement.
A lot of ignorant people that don't know Belgium think it is a French-speaking country since most Flemish speak French and most Walloons DON't speak Flemish. Brussel is supposedly a bilingual city (in Flemish territory!), but has a huge influx of Walloons. The fact is that Dutch is spoken by the 6 million people in Flanders to the north, French by the 3.5 million Walloons in the south!!!
More so: most English speakers will look for Scouting in Belgium rather than Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique. You have to be able to speak French to come up with this name and since the majority of people on wikipedia search in English I really, really strongly think we should DEMAND an English name for the article!!!!
Jorgenpfhartogs 15:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
When going to [www.scouts.be |www.scouts.be] you'll see they call themselves Guides and Scouts and Belgium and The Guides and Scouts Movement of Belgium!!! I will not give up easily. A majority of scouts in Belgium is Flemish, but I'm not vene asking to rename it Scouts en Gidsen België but the English name. This is the English Wikipedia so use the English name!!!! Use the French name on the French wikipedia, use the German name on the German wikipedia, use the Dutch name on the Dutch wikipedia, use the Greek name on the Greek wikipedia, etc.!!!!!!!
Why not rename Scouting Ireland Guidisme et Scoutisme Irlande and Scouting USA Guidisme et Scoutisme Etats Unis. Let's see how people will react to that. I believe it's highly unsensitive and really offending to give a Belgian article a French name. Belgium is a trilingual country, so please respect that! I have nothing against the Francophones and I would react in the same way if this article would have the Flemish name! The FOS doesn't call themselves Federation pour Scoutisme and Scouts en Gidsen Vlaanderen should not be called Scouts et Guides Flandres.
I beg you to rename. Jorgenpfhartogs 17:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no other site for
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België but www.scouts.be[www.scouts.be] and there they use the English version of the name. I've asked the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België for an enlightenment on this. All correspondation I ever recieved from the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België while a scout in the
VVKSM used Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
I'm sure that if you'd use the Swedish name of the Finnish organisation you'd get a similar reaction. The Swiss have a very similar situation to Belgium and they use the English tanslation on their website, just as the Belgians do on theirs. Can you find any Flemish website that mentions the name of Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België as Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique? You claim they use Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique but I can not find any other sites that use it then the WOSM one. The Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België themselves always use Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/ Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. I've asked them for an explanation and they've agreed to get back to me asap.
There's again my question: Do YOU have any (written) proof that the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België uses the French translation officially or prefers the use of the French version? Preferably from the bylaws of the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België or any other official source.
You've mentioned also that the current naming closely follows Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. An expansion of the title with the Flemish name would offend against the policy that article names should be easy accessible for both readers and editors. If this is so, then
Cologne should be renamed
Köln or even Kölle.
Aachen should be renamed to
Oche and
Maastricht should be named
Mestreech. These are the official native spellings. Instead one has opted to go for te English spelling there.
While we're busy, we might even rename
Voeren to
Fourons because that's exactly the same like calling the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België as
Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique.
Let's await the official answer from the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
This user is Proud to be Belgian. |
This user is very, very, very proud to be Limburgs. |
Jorgenpfhartogs
15:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Iam proud to be
Flemish and so should every Fleming be.
I could ask you the same thing:
I am a nationalist, but aren't we all. I'm also not the only nationalist and not the only one offended by using a French term to refer to an interlingual organisation. I can assure that if we would have used the Flemish term the reactions by Wallooon nationalists would have been worse. My proposal is aimed at assuring all people in Belgium and use a title not offending to anyone. The same thing is used for places like Sint-Pieters-Woluwe ( Woluwe-Saint-Pierre - Sint-Pieters-Woluwe), but Sint-Lambrechts-Woluwe is for some reason called Woluwe-Saint-Lambert. Sint-Joost-ten-Noode is called Saint-Josse-ten-Noode. Sint-Jans-Molenbeek is called Molenbeek-Saint-Jean. These are all examples of Flemish names in common use not being used on the English wikipedia. All these municipalities are Flemish but get the French name on the English wikipedia. For municipalities in Brussel the bilingual term is normally used:
Anderlecht | Auderghem / Oudergem | Berchem-Sainte-Agathe / Sint-Agatha-Berchem | Bruxelles-Ville / Stad Brussel | Ixelles / Elsene | Etterbeek | Evere | Forest / Vorst | Ganshoren | Jette | Koekelberg | Molenbeek-Saint-Jean / Sint-Jans-Molenbeek | Saint-Gilles / Sint-Gillis | Saint-Josse-ten-Node / Sint-Joost-ten-Noode | Schaerbeek / Schaarbeek | Woluwe-Saint-Lambert / Sint-Lambrechts-Woluwe | Woluwe-Saint-Pierre / Sint-Pieters-Woluwe | Uccle / Ukkel | Watermael-Boitsfort / Watermaal-Bosvoorde
Municipalities in Flanders use the Flemish spelling (although the French spelling is alowed within the French community). Municipalities in Wallonie use the French spelling (although the Flemish spelling is alowed within the Flemish community).
The same goes for Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. It is never called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique by any Flemish tongues. It is nationalistic to say so, but let's not forget that language in Belgium is a highly sensitive matter and that people are easily offended. I don't think you ever visietd Belgium or ever talked to Belgians before or you would know they usually regard to themselves as Vlaming or Wallon. Walloon nationalists even used the term "La Belgique est mort" and the Flemish nationalists often use "Eigen Volk eerst". I'm NOT one of those extremists and I'm pro-Belgium! I think Belgium should stay bilingual and that therefore Belgian articles on the English wikipedia should use the English term if more coomonly used OR use the Flemsih AND the French term. It just as offensive to use the French term exclusively as the use Danzig instead of Gdansk.
If I would be an extremist I would demand the Flemish use. You constantly use a very superior tone and act like you know it all. I do not want to offend you and I have no problems with you, nor do I want them. You act like you know the Scouts movements in Belgium better than people who have been a member of them for 21 years. I wouldn't try to tell you something about Germany although I've lived there long enough to be considered a native by some.
I would like to make peace with you and discuss the article instead of using phrases like "You don't know how to use Google". Instead of coming up with proof that Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique is indeed used more commonly, you react with personal comments. Is there any proof at all that Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique is more commonly used in Belgium? I would love to see that and that would end this discussion. I've never seen it and after repeatingly asking you for it, you haven't told me where to find it. I DO agree that there's also no proof of Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België being more commonly used since that would offend the French community just as much. All correspondence send out by them mentions Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. To my knowledge this is even a law in Belgium: the bilingual variety of a nationwide organisation should always be used. Sometimes people even go as far as to demand that the German version should be used as well. There are almost twice as many Flemish people as Wallons and there are almost twice as many Flemsih scouts as Walloon scouts. You can ask for the official numbers by contacting the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België is not a movement like Scouting Ireland or Scouting Nederland but merely an organisation that regulates the 5 main scouts movements in Belgium:
All 5 movements have the same position within Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België and all are equal. Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België is non-political, non-religious and tri-lingual. I still think the bi-lingual term is the correct term: Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
Jorgenpfhartogs 23:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
If you're ever in Dublin I suggest we'll have a pint together and discuss this further. You strike me like the kind of person very enthusiastic about Scouting and although we disagree on some things I belive we'll agree on some as well.
Jorgenpfhartogs
01:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Just had a long talk with the ambassador from Belgium to Irelandand his assistant. They both assured me that the correct way of referring to national organisations would be Flemish/French and in international documentation the English form is allowed but not preferred. All official vancancies (at the embassy or any government position) HAVE to be in Flemish and the French. Adding German is preferred but not obligatory. Et ergo, according to government officials the title should be Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique or even Guides and Scouts Movement Belgium. Feel free to contact to Belgian government about this. The e-mail addresses are info@diplobel.fed.be or info@gov.fed.be. This is according to the Federal government. The Flemish and Walloon governments assured me that just their own language suffices but the Flemish government uses French as well as curtosy. Le grand conclusion: the correct name for this article HAS to be Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique and I'll move it i about a week's time. Jorgenpfhartogs 21:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Just had along talk with Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België and the also prefer this. They've also changed it on their site. They would prefer the English spelling on an English site since writing it as Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique or Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België will spark reactions from either site. The English form is preferred but they would like this article to be called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. Most People would search for Scouuting in Belgium and would land on a page where the link is also called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België (info@scouts.be). They've asked me to rewrite the article as well since it contains a few misconceptions and things that are simply not true. Jorgenpfhartogs 16:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I checked out the National Scout Organisations, and the name of this organization in English is Guiding and Scouting in Belgium. I think we should change it to that name. -- evrik 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 17:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
In line with common usage on the English wikipedia and articles concerning Belgium, names of organisations with both a Dutch and a French name are anglicised, unless there is a good reason for prefering the one over the other. Even though Dutch is the majority language of Belgium, this article has a French title. English is thus more neutral and logical on the English wiki. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 16:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I support the rename, because it seems to me to be in accordance with the decisions we made nearly two years ago. The organisation itself uses an English title, so that it what we should use. The other variants should be redirects. Our problems with English titles are when the organisation itself does not use one. -- Bduke (Discussion) 21:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Jergen, the first point we agreed in early 2007 about naming was "For naming articles on Scout organisations/associations, we use an English name if the organisation itself verifiably uses a unique English name in its own documents (if we can not find such a name, we ask the organisation for a name and a source for its use)". The organisation appears to use the English name proposed on its web site. Is that not verified? The usage or popularity of different names is nothing to do with what we agreed in early 2007. This seems to be a clear case where we have an English name we can use. I do not understand you arguments. -- Bduke (Discussion) 07:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
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On the zionist org's article, it does not describe itself as a Scouting movement. Does it really merit inclusion on this page? Chris 02:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Chris 00:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Please change the name of this article to The Guides and Scouts Movement of Belgium instead of giving it the French name. The national Movement in Belgium officially has 3!!! names and not just the French one. Maybe we should use the English name (since this is the English wikipedia) or rename it Scouting in Belgium. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I still very, very strongly disagree. First of all, you looked on the German google. The Belgian google gives a different picture.
Other facts:
The Germanic scouts are normally seen as a part of the Walloon organisations (the Oostkantons are their own Gewest, but, with a huge influx of Walloons, is normally seen as part of the Francophone Gewest. The normally call themselves Pfadfinder Belgien. There are only a few groups in Belgium that are fully German. A few of them are part of the Flemish movement, a few of them are part of the Francophone movement and a few of them are even part of the German movement.
A lot of ignorant people that don't know Belgium think it is a French-speaking country since most Flemish speak French and most Walloons DON't speak Flemish. Brussel is supposedly a bilingual city (in Flemish territory!), but has a huge influx of Walloons. The fact is that Dutch is spoken by the 6 million people in Flanders to the north, French by the 3.5 million Walloons in the south!!!
More so: most English speakers will look for Scouting in Belgium rather than Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique. You have to be able to speak French to come up with this name and since the majority of people on wikipedia search in English I really, really strongly think we should DEMAND an English name for the article!!!!
Jorgenpfhartogs 15:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
When going to [www.scouts.be |www.scouts.be] you'll see they call themselves Guides and Scouts and Belgium and The Guides and Scouts Movement of Belgium!!! I will not give up easily. A majority of scouts in Belgium is Flemish, but I'm not vene asking to rename it Scouts en Gidsen België but the English name. This is the English Wikipedia so use the English name!!!! Use the French name on the French wikipedia, use the German name on the German wikipedia, use the Dutch name on the Dutch wikipedia, use the Greek name on the Greek wikipedia, etc.!!!!!!!
Why not rename Scouting Ireland Guidisme et Scoutisme Irlande and Scouting USA Guidisme et Scoutisme Etats Unis. Let's see how people will react to that. I believe it's highly unsensitive and really offending to give a Belgian article a French name. Belgium is a trilingual country, so please respect that! I have nothing against the Francophones and I would react in the same way if this article would have the Flemish name! The FOS doesn't call themselves Federation pour Scoutisme and Scouts en Gidsen Vlaanderen should not be called Scouts et Guides Flandres.
I beg you to rename. Jorgenpfhartogs 17:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no other site for
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België but www.scouts.be[www.scouts.be] and there they use the English version of the name. I've asked the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België for an enlightenment on this. All correspondation I ever recieved from the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België while a scout in the
VVKSM used Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
I'm sure that if you'd use the Swedish name of the Finnish organisation you'd get a similar reaction. The Swiss have a very similar situation to Belgium and they use the English tanslation on their website, just as the Belgians do on theirs. Can you find any Flemish website that mentions the name of Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België as Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique? You claim they use Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique but I can not find any other sites that use it then the WOSM one. The Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België themselves always use Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/ Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. I've asked them for an explanation and they've agreed to get back to me asap.
There's again my question: Do YOU have any (written) proof that the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België uses the French translation officially or prefers the use of the French version? Preferably from the bylaws of the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België or any other official source.
You've mentioned also that the current naming closely follows Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. An expansion of the title with the Flemish name would offend against the policy that article names should be easy accessible for both readers and editors. If this is so, then
Cologne should be renamed
Köln or even Kölle.
Aachen should be renamed to
Oche and
Maastricht should be named
Mestreech. These are the official native spellings. Instead one has opted to go for te English spelling there.
While we're busy, we might even rename
Voeren to
Fourons because that's exactly the same like calling the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België as
Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique.
Let's await the official answer from the
Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
This user is Proud to be Belgian. |
This user is very, very, very proud to be Limburgs. |
Jorgenpfhartogs
15:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Iam proud to be
Flemish and so should every Fleming be.
I could ask you the same thing:
I am a nationalist, but aren't we all. I'm also not the only nationalist and not the only one offended by using a French term to refer to an interlingual organisation. I can assure that if we would have used the Flemish term the reactions by Wallooon nationalists would have been worse. My proposal is aimed at assuring all people in Belgium and use a title not offending to anyone. The same thing is used for places like Sint-Pieters-Woluwe ( Woluwe-Saint-Pierre - Sint-Pieters-Woluwe), but Sint-Lambrechts-Woluwe is for some reason called Woluwe-Saint-Lambert. Sint-Joost-ten-Noode is called Saint-Josse-ten-Noode. Sint-Jans-Molenbeek is called Molenbeek-Saint-Jean. These are all examples of Flemish names in common use not being used on the English wikipedia. All these municipalities are Flemish but get the French name on the English wikipedia. For municipalities in Brussel the bilingual term is normally used:
Anderlecht | Auderghem / Oudergem | Berchem-Sainte-Agathe / Sint-Agatha-Berchem | Bruxelles-Ville / Stad Brussel | Ixelles / Elsene | Etterbeek | Evere | Forest / Vorst | Ganshoren | Jette | Koekelberg | Molenbeek-Saint-Jean / Sint-Jans-Molenbeek | Saint-Gilles / Sint-Gillis | Saint-Josse-ten-Node / Sint-Joost-ten-Noode | Schaerbeek / Schaarbeek | Woluwe-Saint-Lambert / Sint-Lambrechts-Woluwe | Woluwe-Saint-Pierre / Sint-Pieters-Woluwe | Uccle / Ukkel | Watermael-Boitsfort / Watermaal-Bosvoorde
Municipalities in Flanders use the Flemish spelling (although the French spelling is alowed within the French community). Municipalities in Wallonie use the French spelling (although the Flemish spelling is alowed within the Flemish community).
The same goes for Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. It is never called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique by any Flemish tongues. It is nationalistic to say so, but let's not forget that language in Belgium is a highly sensitive matter and that people are easily offended. I don't think you ever visietd Belgium or ever talked to Belgians before or you would know they usually regard to themselves as Vlaming or Wallon. Walloon nationalists even used the term "La Belgique est mort" and the Flemish nationalists often use "Eigen Volk eerst". I'm NOT one of those extremists and I'm pro-Belgium! I think Belgium should stay bilingual and that therefore Belgian articles on the English wikipedia should use the English term if more coomonly used OR use the Flemsih AND the French term. It just as offensive to use the French term exclusively as the use Danzig instead of Gdansk.
If I would be an extremist I would demand the Flemish use. You constantly use a very superior tone and act like you know it all. I do not want to offend you and I have no problems with you, nor do I want them. You act like you know the Scouts movements in Belgium better than people who have been a member of them for 21 years. I wouldn't try to tell you something about Germany although I've lived there long enough to be considered a native by some.
I would like to make peace with you and discuss the article instead of using phrases like "You don't know how to use Google". Instead of coming up with proof that Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique is indeed used more commonly, you react with personal comments. Is there any proof at all that Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique is more commonly used in Belgium? I would love to see that and that would end this discussion. I've never seen it and after repeatingly asking you for it, you haven't told me where to find it. I DO agree that there's also no proof of Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België being more commonly used since that would offend the French community just as much. All correspondence send out by them mentions Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. To my knowledge this is even a law in Belgium: the bilingual variety of a nationwide organisation should always be used. Sometimes people even go as far as to demand that the German version should be used as well. There are almost twice as many Flemish people as Wallons and there are almost twice as many Flemsih scouts as Walloon scouts. You can ask for the official numbers by contacting the Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België is not a movement like Scouting Ireland or Scouting Nederland but merely an organisation that regulates the 5 main scouts movements in Belgium:
All 5 movements have the same position within Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België and all are equal. Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België is non-political, non-religious and tri-lingual. I still think the bi-lingual term is the correct term: Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
Jorgenpfhartogs 23:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
If you're ever in Dublin I suggest we'll have a pint together and discuss this further. You strike me like the kind of person very enthusiastic about Scouting and although we disagree on some things I belive we'll agree on some as well.
Jorgenpfhartogs
01:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Just had a long talk with the ambassador from Belgium to Irelandand his assistant. They both assured me that the correct way of referring to national organisations would be Flemish/French and in international documentation the English form is allowed but not preferred. All official vancancies (at the embassy or any government position) HAVE to be in Flemish and the French. Adding German is preferred but not obligatory. Et ergo, according to government officials the title should be Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique or even Guides and Scouts Movement Belgium. Feel free to contact to Belgian government about this. The e-mail addresses are info@diplobel.fed.be or info@gov.fed.be. This is according to the Federal government. The Flemish and Walloon governments assured me that just their own language suffices but the Flemish government uses French as well as curtosy. Le grand conclusion: the correct name for this article HAS to be Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique and I'll move it i about a week's time. Jorgenpfhartogs 21:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Just had along talk with Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België and the also prefer this. They've also changed it on their site. They would prefer the English spelling on an English site since writing it as Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België/Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique or Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België will spark reactions from either site. The English form is preferred but they would like this article to be called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België. Most People would search for Scouuting in Belgium and would land on a page where the link is also called Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique/Gidsen- en Scoutsbeweging in België (info@scouts.be). They've asked me to rewrite the article as well since it contains a few misconceptions and things that are simply not true. Jorgenpfhartogs 16:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I checked out the National Scout Organisations, and the name of this organization in English is Guiding and Scouting in Belgium. I think we should change it to that name. -- evrik 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 17:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
In line with common usage on the English wikipedia and articles concerning Belgium, names of organisations with both a Dutch and a French name are anglicised, unless there is a good reason for prefering the one over the other. Even though Dutch is the majority language of Belgium, this article has a French title. English is thus more neutral and logical on the English wiki. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 16:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I support the rename, because it seems to me to be in accordance with the decisions we made nearly two years ago. The organisation itself uses an English title, so that it what we should use. The other variants should be redirects. Our problems with English titles are when the organisation itself does not use one. -- Bduke (Discussion) 21:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Jergen, the first point we agreed in early 2007 about naming was "For naming articles on Scout organisations/associations, we use an English name if the organisation itself verifiably uses a unique English name in its own documents (if we can not find such a name, we ask the organisation for a name and a source for its use)". The organisation appears to use the English name proposed on its web site. Is that not verified? The usage or popularity of different names is nothing to do with what we agreed in early 2007. This seems to be a clear case where we have an English name we can use. I do not understand you arguments. -- Bduke (Discussion) 07:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
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