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"Guardian spirit" redirects to this article, but this article barely even mentions protective spirits in cultures outside of Judeo-Christian ones. Is "guardian angel" really the place to put every culture's conceptions of guardian spirits? If anything, wouldn't it be the other way around (although "guardian angel" gets more Google hits than "guardian spirits", obviously). - Silence 02:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Silence is referring, I think, to how fully developed the thought is outside of the west and how eastern philosophies have also come to something like a g.a. I.e. there should be an article on the guardian spirit that includes everything from animism to ancestor worship to daemons to the Islamic protector. However, the Guardian angel article should confine itself to what's in Christian thought and how it got there (e.g. by discussing the Islamic tradition and its influence around 1309). Geogre 15:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Angels aren't solely spirit, but also flesh. They can appear as invisble and disincarnate spirits, but also they can appear within a human flesh. This applies bho to angels of Satan and to angels of God, while solely the seconds are capable of loving their neighbour and to look for ourselves and human communities. Their work in a human body is described in Genesis 19:1–7, Psalms 91:11 in the Book of Tobit and in 1 Corinthians 11;10. It is problematic if their had an own immutable flesh, apart of the multiple and mutable forms -both animal (for demons) and human- in which they are always been used to appear. In the first case, angels woul have a dyophysite nature, both human and spiritual, which for definition is invisible, bodiless and without physic mass. By virtue of this twofold nature, the saint angels of God belong to the Roman Catholic notion of the Communion of saints.
I put back the guardian angel prayer, including an explanation. It is a widely-know and oft-used prayer, especially for Christian children. There is also a Wikilink to it from List of Prayers, so if it is determined by consensus that the prayer should be removed, please redirect that link. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 14:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Folks, we really need a source for that prayer. If it's common, it should be attested somewhere besides ourselves. There is much more to do in this article, and I've set it aside for quite a while. However, there is much more to the theology and, in particular, the counterpositioning of Arabic/Islamic thought. Most of the schema of angels employed by Western literature comes from Islamic sources (in Paradise Lost, for example), and all the alchemists were drawing from those sources. Consequently, there is a much more developed guardian angel theology in Islam. Although this article is about the Christian guardian angel, a fair amount has bled into the west from Islam. Geogre 15:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't saying that Greek Orthodox angelology was from Islam. The doctrine of the guardian angel is well developed in the Greek fathers. However, the exact positioning (seraphim/cherubim vs. orders), along with the names, etc. are all developed in Islam, so the contemporary mystery with angels is really derived from Christianity + Arabic belief + Islam + Christianity, with the Greek church following the same lines until the schism and then getting a different direction. I still say that prayer's got to go, though, unless someone has a citation for it. It's been a month, and the thing is still sitting there without citation. Geogre 02:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The text says the following: "The belief that God sends a spirit to watch every individual was common in Ancient Greek philosophy, and Plato alludes to it in Phaedo". The greeks were polytheists, which god does the text refer to? Furthermore should a reference be added here. -ramz- 19:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The above banner was placed on this article as there is a liturgical feast day for the Guardian angels, as indicated in the article, and we in that project are working to improve all articles relating to individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical feasts. The inclusion of the banner gives us in the project an idea of the current status of the article. We will upon completion of tagging work harder on the importance assessment, which will give the members of the project a chance to concentrate their efforts where it is most needed. That will happen sometime later, though. I can't say when, as I'm still in the process of tagging. In any event, I hope that these statements are sufficient to justify the banner not being removed by someone else later. John Carter 15:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
No problem, of course, but aren't angels, by the nature of their being angelos, not hidden and therefore not occult? Like I said, it's all fine with me, but it does seem...odd. Geogre 12:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
This article should be named Guardian angel. This is clearly the primary meaning (even the generic Guardian angel page redirects here). So, per WP:DAB, this article's name should be without the disambiguation (spirit) . -- P199 ( talk) 14:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The view that the "prince of the Persian Kingdom" was referring to one of the fallen angels... may not be quite as clear cut as presented. The note to Daniel 10:13 in the NAB follows Jerome in stating that this was the guardian angel of Persia, just as Michael protects Israel (Dan.10:21); while Clarke suggests that it was Cyrus himself, who resisted the angel's promptings. This statement also seems to contradict the last sentence in the Old Testament section which identifies the prince of the Persians as one of the angels assigned to particular districts. Mannanan51 ( talk) 02:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)mannannan51
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My removal of some vague/dubious information and inappropriate sourcing was reverted without any reason, so if you want to have a serious discussion please do so. -- Pythagimedes ( talk) 07:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Rabbinic litterature is a secondary source in respect of the whole Bible. If you quotes the Old Testament, then the New Testament shall be the immediately subsequent section since for Christian (and in some way also for the Muslims) it has the same authority and divine inspiration than the Old Testament. From a Jewish point of view this statement is not true, but a similar order of sections doesn't observe WP:NPOV.
Differently, religious commentaries are secondary sources derived from the Holy Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.14.138.216 ( talk • contribs)
I don't know whether editors who follow a majority religion excluded the viewpoints of the religion Thelema from this article, or whether the followers of Thelema wished to create their own walled-garden, but we basically had a POV split across a single subject, so I was bold and merged them. Skyerise ( talk) 12:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
I think that's enough to make it obvious that Crowley didn't invent the idea, and implies further history which anyone interested can seek out by scrolling up or following the links. If you want to make things even harder to miss, we can add a "(see above)" with an internal link to the section on Renaissance magic. This would provide the necessary background and would eliminate the need for subsuming the existing material."Having studied The Book of Abramelin during his time with the Golden Dawn, author and occultist Aleister Crowley adapted the concept of the Holy Guardian Angel from Renaissance magic and made it central to the philosophy and practices of Thelema, popularizing it in the process."
Well done. Skyerise ( talk) 00:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Needs to be discussed here by the edit-warrior attempting to force this change on the article. Skyerise ( talk) 11:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Guardian angel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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"Guardian spirit" redirects to this article, but this article barely even mentions protective spirits in cultures outside of Judeo-Christian ones. Is "guardian angel" really the place to put every culture's conceptions of guardian spirits? If anything, wouldn't it be the other way around (although "guardian angel" gets more Google hits than "guardian spirits", obviously). - Silence 02:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Silence is referring, I think, to how fully developed the thought is outside of the west and how eastern philosophies have also come to something like a g.a. I.e. there should be an article on the guardian spirit that includes everything from animism to ancestor worship to daemons to the Islamic protector. However, the Guardian angel article should confine itself to what's in Christian thought and how it got there (e.g. by discussing the Islamic tradition and its influence around 1309). Geogre 15:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Angels aren't solely spirit, but also flesh. They can appear as invisble and disincarnate spirits, but also they can appear within a human flesh. This applies bho to angels of Satan and to angels of God, while solely the seconds are capable of loving their neighbour and to look for ourselves and human communities. Their work in a human body is described in Genesis 19:1–7, Psalms 91:11 in the Book of Tobit and in 1 Corinthians 11;10. It is problematic if their had an own immutable flesh, apart of the multiple and mutable forms -both animal (for demons) and human- in which they are always been used to appear. In the first case, angels woul have a dyophysite nature, both human and spiritual, which for definition is invisible, bodiless and without physic mass. By virtue of this twofold nature, the saint angels of God belong to the Roman Catholic notion of the Communion of saints.
I put back the guardian angel prayer, including an explanation. It is a widely-know and oft-used prayer, especially for Christian children. There is also a Wikilink to it from List of Prayers, so if it is determined by consensus that the prayer should be removed, please redirect that link. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 14:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Folks, we really need a source for that prayer. If it's common, it should be attested somewhere besides ourselves. There is much more to do in this article, and I've set it aside for quite a while. However, there is much more to the theology and, in particular, the counterpositioning of Arabic/Islamic thought. Most of the schema of angels employed by Western literature comes from Islamic sources (in Paradise Lost, for example), and all the alchemists were drawing from those sources. Consequently, there is a much more developed guardian angel theology in Islam. Although this article is about the Christian guardian angel, a fair amount has bled into the west from Islam. Geogre 15:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't saying that Greek Orthodox angelology was from Islam. The doctrine of the guardian angel is well developed in the Greek fathers. However, the exact positioning (seraphim/cherubim vs. orders), along with the names, etc. are all developed in Islam, so the contemporary mystery with angels is really derived from Christianity + Arabic belief + Islam + Christianity, with the Greek church following the same lines until the schism and then getting a different direction. I still say that prayer's got to go, though, unless someone has a citation for it. It's been a month, and the thing is still sitting there without citation. Geogre 02:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The text says the following: "The belief that God sends a spirit to watch every individual was common in Ancient Greek philosophy, and Plato alludes to it in Phaedo". The greeks were polytheists, which god does the text refer to? Furthermore should a reference be added here. -ramz- 19:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The above banner was placed on this article as there is a liturgical feast day for the Guardian angels, as indicated in the article, and we in that project are working to improve all articles relating to individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical feasts. The inclusion of the banner gives us in the project an idea of the current status of the article. We will upon completion of tagging work harder on the importance assessment, which will give the members of the project a chance to concentrate their efforts where it is most needed. That will happen sometime later, though. I can't say when, as I'm still in the process of tagging. In any event, I hope that these statements are sufficient to justify the banner not being removed by someone else later. John Carter 15:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
No problem, of course, but aren't angels, by the nature of their being angelos, not hidden and therefore not occult? Like I said, it's all fine with me, but it does seem...odd. Geogre 12:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
This article should be named Guardian angel. This is clearly the primary meaning (even the generic Guardian angel page redirects here). So, per WP:DAB, this article's name should be without the disambiguation (spirit) . -- P199 ( talk) 14:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The view that the "prince of the Persian Kingdom" was referring to one of the fallen angels... may not be quite as clear cut as presented. The note to Daniel 10:13 in the NAB follows Jerome in stating that this was the guardian angel of Persia, just as Michael protects Israel (Dan.10:21); while Clarke suggests that it was Cyrus himself, who resisted the angel's promptings. This statement also seems to contradict the last sentence in the Old Testament section which identifies the prince of the Persians as one of the angels assigned to particular districts. Mannanan51 ( talk) 02:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)mannannan51
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My removal of some vague/dubious information and inappropriate sourcing was reverted without any reason, so if you want to have a serious discussion please do so. -- Pythagimedes ( talk) 07:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Rabbinic litterature is a secondary source in respect of the whole Bible. If you quotes the Old Testament, then the New Testament shall be the immediately subsequent section since for Christian (and in some way also for the Muslims) it has the same authority and divine inspiration than the Old Testament. From a Jewish point of view this statement is not true, but a similar order of sections doesn't observe WP:NPOV.
Differently, religious commentaries are secondary sources derived from the Holy Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.14.138.216 ( talk • contribs)
I don't know whether editors who follow a majority religion excluded the viewpoints of the religion Thelema from this article, or whether the followers of Thelema wished to create their own walled-garden, but we basically had a POV split across a single subject, so I was bold and merged them. Skyerise ( talk) 12:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
I think that's enough to make it obvious that Crowley didn't invent the idea, and implies further history which anyone interested can seek out by scrolling up or following the links. If you want to make things even harder to miss, we can add a "(see above)" with an internal link to the section on Renaissance magic. This would provide the necessary background and would eliminate the need for subsuming the existing material."Having studied The Book of Abramelin during his time with the Golden Dawn, author and occultist Aleister Crowley adapted the concept of the Holy Guardian Angel from Renaissance magic and made it central to the philosophy and practices of Thelema, popularizing it in the process."
Well done. Skyerise ( talk) 00:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Needs to be discussed here by the edit-warrior attempting to force this change on the article. Skyerise ( talk) 11:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)