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Kintetsubuffalo said:
![]() | This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the
Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN. |
Why don't you? We can have two reconstructions. — kwami ( talk) 21:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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It seems to me this wikipedia article only claims that the language is Berber based on animals, agrilctural vocabulary. While many videos will show you their language/vocabulary in numbers, genders, foods, greetings, nature are also similar to other Berber languages.
Look at the youtube video that says "The Sound of the Guanche language (Numbers, Greetings, Words & Sample Texts)". You will find that many North Africans youtuber commenters, Berbers, Amazigh sill say they understand the majority of it, another commented or that it understand 90% of it, and that is similar to the the Berber type in southern Morocco. In my opinion, the article could put even more details on it's similarity to Berber.- Vamlos ( talk) 08:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Basic vocabulary in Guanche and Berber are strikingly different.
As a brief exercise, I've compiled basic vocabulary comparing both Guanche and Tarifiyt Berber, although I'm not adding the content below into the article since it's WP:SYNTH.
Selected Guanche vocabulary items from a 16th-century list by Alonso de Espinosa, as edited and translated by Clements Robert Markham (1907), as compared to Tarifiyt Berber from Kossmann (2009):
gloss | Tarifiyt Berber | Guanche |
---|---|---|
lake | ařimam; ŧanda | aguere |
milk | aɣi; ađɣəs | ahof |
sun | ŧfušŧ | amen |
sheep | iħuřiyən | ana |
goat | ŧɣat’t’; amyan | ara |
sky | ažənna | ataman |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | cancha |
moon | yua; ŧaziri | cel |
woman | ŧamɣā’ŧ | chamato |
man | āyaz | coran |
son | mmi | guan; ben |
spirit, life | ŧuđāŧ | guaya |
multitude, people | iwđan | hari |
mother | yəmma | mayec |
bone | iɣəss | n-amet |
thou, thy | šəkk | t |
they | nihni | th |
barley | iməndi | tara |
pine tree | ŧayđa < Latin | tea |
shoe | ahākus < Arabic | xarco |
sky | ažənna | xerax |
navel | ŧaʕəbbut’ | zonfa |
Guanche dialects from Wölfel (1965), compared to
Tarifiyt Berber from
Kossmann (2009):
gloss | Tarifiyt Berber | Guanche | dialect of Guanche |
---|---|---|---|
nostrils | ŧinzā | doramas | Gran Canaria |
shoulder | ŧaɣrut’t’ | adargoma | Gran Canaria |
heart | uř | atacaicate | Gran Canaria |
fist | fus 'hand' | garuaic | |
navel | ŧaʕəbbut’ | zonfa | Tenerife |
bone | iɣəss | agoñe | Tenerife |
good | šən | taber | Palma |
sky | ažənna | tigotan | Palma |
sky, God | ažənna | ataman | Tenerife |
sun | ŧfušŧ | magec | Tenerife, Gran Canaria? |
water | aman | ahemon | Hierro |
water | aman | aala(mon) | Gomera, Hierro |
water | aman | ade | Palma |
fire | ŧiməssi | ide | Tenerife |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | cancha | Gran Canaria, Tenerife |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | garehagua | Palma |
Guanche words that have Berber cognates might be 'sky', 'woman', 'pine tree', and 'water', but we can't set up any
sound correspondences either:
As for the Berber-like numeral system in Guanche, that does not constitute evidence of genetic relatedness. You can see how entire numeral systems can be borrowed among genetically unrelated language groups. For example, many Amerindian languages now use Spanish numerals, and numerous languages of the Sahel utilize Arabic numerals. Kra-Dai languages have an Austronesian base, but most branches use numeral systems almost completely derived from Sinitic languages.
The comparisons clearly show that Guanche and Berber absolutely not related, unless your methodologies are similar to those of
Joseph Greenberg and
Sergei Starostin. —
Sagotreespirit (
talk)
18:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
The lead states that Guanche is known today through sentences and individual words
. However, the rest of the article lists only individual words. Have any complete sentences actually been recorded, and if so, could some be included?
Lennart97 (
talk)
15:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
«¡¡Uh!! Magné Mastáy / Achen tumba Manéy. ¡¡Oh!! Madre del cielo / Madre de la tierra» Prayer to the Virgin Mary during the Candelaria festivity (Tenerife). [Eduardo P. García, 2001]
*Uh! Ma-gnnă, Ma-stăy aše-n tənwa(t), Ma-năy! [1]
“Oh! mother of sky, mother of growth (poetic expletive) of the brotherhood, mother of new.”
«Alzanxiquian abcanahac xerax, que quiere dezir, Lugar del ayuntamiento del hijo del grande» [Espinosa, 1594]
*Als-ənɣ ikiyăn abəqq a-nn ahaẓ Aɣəraɣ. [2]
“Restart for us the roots of the covenant/commune where the kin of Xerax* is.”
*Also known as Guayaxerax (“he who sustains”) [3], local syncretic form of Jesus during the evangelisation of Tenerife.
aɣər-aɣ = “supports the Sky” (Reyes) [4] | ɣereH = “keep safe, sustain” (Militarev) [5].
Y Yguída, y Yguan Ydafe, que quíere decír: Dice que caerâ Ydafe. Y respondía el otro cantando: Que guerte yguan taro: que quíere decír, dalelo que traes, y no caerâ. » [Abreu, ca. 1590]
_*Id yəwəḍa, id yəwăn, Iḍaf? _*Kkə gər-t; yəwăn tar-u. [6] [7]
“_Idafe*, does he fall or is he satisfied? _Go and give (offering); he will be satisfied soon.”
*Rocky pillar in the center of the Taburiente caldera (La Palma).
Iḍaf = sentinel, guard (Reyes) [8]
«Doramas. Aguay marana en maraguas, ay ha acha Aytimadas ayta, ast au tindana ast chanbeneguer ast bentagayre / Sabiduría. aspe Aramaguadas holdaya / Doramas. adu hi area [...] // Sabiduría. Sabeys que diçe que si esta aqui Autindana, o chanbeneguer, O bentagayre tres Canarios balentisimos por que quiere Luchar Conellos. yo le digo que no estan sino Tres damas hermosas que le buscan que vaje aca y diçe que ya biene [...] / Doramas. Aramera macura aramera macura. [...] / Sabiduría. dice que parecemos cosa del çíelo» [Cairasco 1582: 40r]
_*A way əmărəna n əmărəwas! Ay ɣa ašša i-tămaddas ay-da. As-da aw-tendara, as-da šanbănəger, as-da wa-n-taggayd. _*Asəbbi ăra-mawaḍ. As ɣol ddăy-a. _*A ddu-ɣ har-a. _*Ar amăr am aqqur-a. [9]
“_Lo, the overcomer of hardship! He who comes to the fight is here. Where are you, Autindana/Outindara, Chanbeneguer, Bentagayre/Bentagayde? _Fair young girls (we are). Come down here. _Still, I’ll go. _(You are) even like the heaven."
«Las casas de mujeres religiosas era sagrado para delínquentes; llamabanlas Tamogante en Acoran, que significa cassa de Dios» [Gómez Escudero, ca. 1484]
*Taməggant-n-aqquran [10]
“(Female) Servant of *Acorán.”
*Celestial god.
Feel free (all of you) to correct this and rewrite it according to Wikipedia's standards. I will work on it anyway. The citation links are there if anybody wants to include it at any point. Cheers.-- Il Qathar ( talk) 15:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
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Might be a borrowing of ‘canicula’ and therefore not be of much help identifying Guanche's origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 11:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
One argument against this is that if Pliny was right, Canary Island dogs were endemic since ancient times and quite large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 00:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Hayward 2000 is a general overview on the topic of Afroasiatic languages and therefore a lousy source for a niche topic like this. The author hasn't published on Guanche before and likely has very little topical knowledge, given his sweeping claim that Guanche is ‘clearly another AA language’ even though most of the vocabulary is a complete mystery and almost nothing is known about its grammar. And too boot, this source is used to support the claim that Guanche is a Berber language but the author doesn't even claim that. It seems even Hayward had enough humility to not commit any further than to Afroasiatic. The other other author he cites writes: ‘But numerous isoglosses connecting Guanche with Chadic and other Afrasian languages to the exclusion of Berbero-Libyan, indicate a divergent development.’ Unfortunately Igor M. Diakonoff doesn't actually show these isoglosses in his text and looking at some word lists I can see no clear correspondences between Guanche and either reconstructed Proto-Chadic or modern Hausa and all the basic vocabulary is completely different. He died twenty years ago, so we cannot ask him for clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 14:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Kintetsubuffalo said:
![]() | This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the
Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN. |
Why don't you? We can have two reconstructions. — kwami ( talk) 21:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Guanche language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:35, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
It seems to me this wikipedia article only claims that the language is Berber based on animals, agrilctural vocabulary. While many videos will show you their language/vocabulary in numbers, genders, foods, greetings, nature are also similar to other Berber languages.
Look at the youtube video that says "The Sound of the Guanche language (Numbers, Greetings, Words & Sample Texts)". You will find that many North Africans youtuber commenters, Berbers, Amazigh sill say they understand the majority of it, another commented or that it understand 90% of it, and that is similar to the the Berber type in southern Morocco. In my opinion, the article could put even more details on it's similarity to Berber.- Vamlos ( talk) 08:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Basic vocabulary in Guanche and Berber are strikingly different.
As a brief exercise, I've compiled basic vocabulary comparing both Guanche and Tarifiyt Berber, although I'm not adding the content below into the article since it's WP:SYNTH.
Selected Guanche vocabulary items from a 16th-century list by Alonso de Espinosa, as edited and translated by Clements Robert Markham (1907), as compared to Tarifiyt Berber from Kossmann (2009):
gloss | Tarifiyt Berber | Guanche |
---|---|---|
lake | ařimam; ŧanda | aguere |
milk | aɣi; ađɣəs | ahof |
sun | ŧfušŧ | amen |
sheep | iħuřiyən | ana |
goat | ŧɣat’t’; amyan | ara |
sky | ažənna | ataman |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | cancha |
moon | yua; ŧaziri | cel |
woman | ŧamɣā’ŧ | chamato |
man | āyaz | coran |
son | mmi | guan; ben |
spirit, life | ŧuđāŧ | guaya |
multitude, people | iwđan | hari |
mother | yəmma | mayec |
bone | iɣəss | n-amet |
thou, thy | šəkk | t |
they | nihni | th |
barley | iməndi | tara |
pine tree | ŧayđa < Latin | tea |
shoe | ahākus < Arabic | xarco |
sky | ažənna | xerax |
navel | ŧaʕəbbut’ | zonfa |
Guanche dialects from Wölfel (1965), compared to
Tarifiyt Berber from
Kossmann (2009):
gloss | Tarifiyt Berber | Guanche | dialect of Guanche |
---|---|---|---|
nostrils | ŧinzā | doramas | Gran Canaria |
shoulder | ŧaɣrut’t’ | adargoma | Gran Canaria |
heart | uř | atacaicate | Gran Canaria |
fist | fus 'hand' | garuaic | |
navel | ŧaʕəbbut’ | zonfa | Tenerife |
bone | iɣəss | agoñe | Tenerife |
good | šən | taber | Palma |
sky | ažənna | tigotan | Palma |
sky, God | ažənna | ataman | Tenerife |
sun | ŧfušŧ | magec | Tenerife, Gran Canaria? |
water | aman | ahemon | Hierro |
water | aman | aala(mon) | Gomera, Hierro |
water | aman | ade | Palma |
fire | ŧiməssi | ide | Tenerife |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | cancha | Gran Canaria, Tenerife |
dog | ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā | garehagua | Palma |
Guanche words that have Berber cognates might be 'sky', 'woman', 'pine tree', and 'water', but we can't set up any
sound correspondences either:
As for the Berber-like numeral system in Guanche, that does not constitute evidence of genetic relatedness. You can see how entire numeral systems can be borrowed among genetically unrelated language groups. For example, many Amerindian languages now use Spanish numerals, and numerous languages of the Sahel utilize Arabic numerals. Kra-Dai languages have an Austronesian base, but most branches use numeral systems almost completely derived from Sinitic languages.
The comparisons clearly show that Guanche and Berber absolutely not related, unless your methodologies are similar to those of
Joseph Greenberg and
Sergei Starostin. —
Sagotreespirit (
talk)
18:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
The lead states that Guanche is known today through sentences and individual words
. However, the rest of the article lists only individual words. Have any complete sentences actually been recorded, and if so, could some be included?
Lennart97 (
talk)
15:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
«¡¡Uh!! Magné Mastáy / Achen tumba Manéy. ¡¡Oh!! Madre del cielo / Madre de la tierra» Prayer to the Virgin Mary during the Candelaria festivity (Tenerife). [Eduardo P. García, 2001]
*Uh! Ma-gnnă, Ma-stăy aše-n tənwa(t), Ma-năy! [1]
“Oh! mother of sky, mother of growth (poetic expletive) of the brotherhood, mother of new.”
«Alzanxiquian abcanahac xerax, que quiere dezir, Lugar del ayuntamiento del hijo del grande» [Espinosa, 1594]
*Als-ənɣ ikiyăn abəqq a-nn ahaẓ Aɣəraɣ. [2]
“Restart for us the roots of the covenant/commune where the kin of Xerax* is.”
*Also known as Guayaxerax (“he who sustains”) [3], local syncretic form of Jesus during the evangelisation of Tenerife.
aɣər-aɣ = “supports the Sky” (Reyes) [4] | ɣereH = “keep safe, sustain” (Militarev) [5].
Y Yguída, y Yguan Ydafe, que quíere decír: Dice que caerâ Ydafe. Y respondía el otro cantando: Que guerte yguan taro: que quíere decír, dalelo que traes, y no caerâ. » [Abreu, ca. 1590]
_*Id yəwəḍa, id yəwăn, Iḍaf? _*Kkə gər-t; yəwăn tar-u. [6] [7]
“_Idafe*, does he fall or is he satisfied? _Go and give (offering); he will be satisfied soon.”
*Rocky pillar in the center of the Taburiente caldera (La Palma).
Iḍaf = sentinel, guard (Reyes) [8]
«Doramas. Aguay marana en maraguas, ay ha acha Aytimadas ayta, ast au tindana ast chanbeneguer ast bentagayre / Sabiduría. aspe Aramaguadas holdaya / Doramas. adu hi area [...] // Sabiduría. Sabeys que diçe que si esta aqui Autindana, o chanbeneguer, O bentagayre tres Canarios balentisimos por que quiere Luchar Conellos. yo le digo que no estan sino Tres damas hermosas que le buscan que vaje aca y diçe que ya biene [...] / Doramas. Aramera macura aramera macura. [...] / Sabiduría. dice que parecemos cosa del çíelo» [Cairasco 1582: 40r]
_*A way əmărəna n əmărəwas! Ay ɣa ašša i-tămaddas ay-da. As-da aw-tendara, as-da šanbănəger, as-da wa-n-taggayd. _*Asəbbi ăra-mawaḍ. As ɣol ddăy-a. _*A ddu-ɣ har-a. _*Ar amăr am aqqur-a. [9]
“_Lo, the overcomer of hardship! He who comes to the fight is here. Where are you, Autindana/Outindara, Chanbeneguer, Bentagayre/Bentagayde? _Fair young girls (we are). Come down here. _Still, I’ll go. _(You are) even like the heaven."
«Las casas de mujeres religiosas era sagrado para delínquentes; llamabanlas Tamogante en Acoran, que significa cassa de Dios» [Gómez Escudero, ca. 1484]
*Taməggant-n-aqquran [10]
“(Female) Servant of *Acorán.”
*Celestial god.
Feel free (all of you) to correct this and rewrite it according to Wikipedia's standards. I will work on it anyway. The citation links are there if anybody wants to include it at any point. Cheers.-- Il Qathar ( talk) 15:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
References
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help)
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Might be a borrowing of ‘canicula’ and therefore not be of much help identifying Guanche's origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 11:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
One argument against this is that if Pliny was right, Canary Island dogs were endemic since ancient times and quite large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 00:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Hayward 2000 is a general overview on the topic of Afroasiatic languages and therefore a lousy source for a niche topic like this. The author hasn't published on Guanche before and likely has very little topical knowledge, given his sweeping claim that Guanche is ‘clearly another AA language’ even though most of the vocabulary is a complete mystery and almost nothing is known about its grammar. And too boot, this source is used to support the claim that Guanche is a Berber language but the author doesn't even claim that. It seems even Hayward had enough humility to not commit any further than to Afroasiatic. The other other author he cites writes: ‘But numerous isoglosses connecting Guanche with Chadic and other Afrasian languages to the exclusion of Berbero-Libyan, indicate a divergent development.’ Unfortunately Igor M. Diakonoff doesn't actually show these isoglosses in his text and looking at some word lists I can see no clear correspondences between Guanche and either reconstructed Proto-Chadic or modern Hausa and all the basic vocabulary is completely different. He died twenty years ago, so we cannot ask him for clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 ( talk) 14:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)