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This article follows the tale of Guan Yu given in Luo Guanzhong's "Romance of the Three Kingoms" and makes little effort to reconcile this fictional account with the historical account given in Chen Shou's "Sanguo Zhi".
In section 1 paragraph 1: he fled to the northern frontier town of Zhuo, where he joined Liu Bei, a local notable. What's a "notable"? Is it supposed to be "noble"? From what I understand, though Liu does trace his bloodlines to an already distant branch of the imperial family, the connection is so distant that he could hardly be considered nobility. (Not to mention that he was described as a strawhatter in the RotTK -- albeit one that's literate.)
Yes, that is supposed to be noble- Azi Dahaka
Hi fellow editors. i've made several major changes to this article over the past few days. Among these were the movement of contents from Guan Gong to here, as well as rewriting of most stuffs originally here. The latter is a matter of style and up to individual liking, but i'd like to point out three factual corrections i had made.
That's all for now. i'd be doing more reorganizing for the remaining sections in the days to come. Hope you guys like it. :) -- Plastictv 10:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe "Guanneihou" is the lowest rank of marquis at that time, instead of "Tinghou" ("Tinghou" is different from "Dutinghou", and is higher in rank than the latter as I can recall). EkmanLi ( talk) 10:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
This was added by an unregistered user (IP address: 165.21.154.10). It seems to be a quote by Guan Yu from a Buddhist scripture. i removed it because: 1. the information is not relevant; 2. it is not sourced; 3. it is not translated.
-- Plastictv 11:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
i've roughly completed my work on Guan Yu. However, it is still far below satisfactory. i'd like to add more info on Guan Yu worship as well as Guan Yu in operas but the issues are complex and my knowledge in these areas is utterly hopeless. Anyone who is an expert in this please help? i'd also like to make the article more concise without losing important details but didn't seem able to do so... -- Plastictv 05:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe there should be redirects for the cantonese spellings of words (ie: General Kwan->Guan Yu) As a practicioner of Hung Gar, I am more familiar with cantonese pronouciacion of Kwan Do and General Kwan, and it took me alot longer than it needed to to find this article.
The reason why Guan Yu as Sangharama wields a sword is that guandao did not exist at the time Guan Yu was deified in Buddhism. The idea of guandao probably came much later in Yuan Dynasty or even Ming Dynasty, appearing in operas and, of course, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. i also put "Sangharama Bodhisattva" in parenthesis because it is not Guan Yu Buddhists are worshipping, but rather Sangharama (just like a monk adopts a faith name and abandons his mortal name when he enters the faith).
It is also arguable whether we should transliterate his famous weapon as Guan Dao, Guan Dao, guandao or perhaps something else. i'd support guandao, though. -- Plastictv 15:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
i removed the following text addded by the previous editor because it gives a fictional account of Guan Yu's departure from Cao Cao, which is already covered in the "Guan Yu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms" section. There is a difference between historical record and historical novel.
Hopefully with this explanation, nobody gets offended by the removal. :) -- Plastictv 15:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Re. folklore 21 December 2005 Folklore about Guan Yu is part of the tradition. One would not delete fictional accounts from an article simply because they are not historical. Rather, one can distinquish folklore that is probably fictional from what seems to be more certain historically in an article.
User 69.231.246.224 changed the text "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" to "Blue Moon Dragon". I posted the following on their talk page:
Having not heard anything from them, I have now restored the text to "Green Dragon Crescent Blade". Stelio 19:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
in wiki's chinese myth pages,青龙 is translated into "Azure dragon". However, i prefer the "green" idea, since traditionally Guan Yu is linked to green color.( perhaps the green robe Liu Bei gave him in RoTK? )(btw,green is adopted as national color of Shu in Koei's Dynasty Warriors series) Ybfelix 18:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
青 was referred to the color of blue or black during Han Dynasty. EkmanLi ( talk) 11:03, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, in a non-classical context, 青 is probably more accurately referring to blue. I don't think Koei enters into historical discussion, but most likely you are right regarding green, as this is closest to accepted parlance. WatersD ( talk) 03:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
I have absolutely nothing negative to say about this article. It is long, detailed, and thorough, and even includes a good number of pictures. I especially like the top one, which is of great quality and clarity, and of a good, impressive size, without infringing upon the text at all. The article treats not only the historical Guan Yu, but also the fictional Guan Yu from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, along with the portrayal of Guan Yu in gaming, and the worship of him in various places and faiths. I am nominating this for "Good Article" status, and, I don't see why not, for A-class status as well. If there is anything to be improved here, it is the general clean-up and maintenance that any article requires - nothing's 100% perfect. LordAmeth 01:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a good article. Work on including footnotes. If you have no footnotes, do not bother nominating it as a Good Article. -- GoOdCoNtEnT 06:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"Also according to folklore, Guan Yu's weapon was a guandao named Blue Dragon Crescent Blade, which resembled a halberd and was said to weigh 82 jin (41 kilograms using today's standards)."
On the Guan Do page it says:
"Guan Yu's guan dao was called "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" (青龍偃月刀) which weighed 82 Chinese jin (estimated 49 kg.)"
Which is correct?
The unit of weight "jin" is currently standardized to be exactly 500g. But throughout the history of China, the quantity of this measurement fluctuated a great deal. (Much like how "chi" is. This unit of length s 33.3 cm by today's standard, which would make Guan Yu a 3 meter giant). Since we cannot pinpoint the year, or even the dynasty of Luo's authorship (or has that been officially determined?), there is no way to know for sure how much a "jin" was to Luo. Personally, I would go with the heaviest estimation. -- 64.180.11.169 06:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
During Han Dynasty, the word 青 was mainly referred to black (or blue/indigo). Note that during Qing Dynasty (the time Mao's 120 chapters Sanguozhi yanyi came to this world), the word 青 was usually referred to blue (indigo), or green. -- EkmanLi ( talk) 11:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"In 199 Liu Bei assassinated the Governor of Xu Zhou appointed by the rising warlord Cao Cao"
It is barely of any concern for the reputation of Guan Yu at first glance. But there is no indication from either the Romance or the Chronicle that the method of Che Zhou's demise was assassination, which implies unhonorable behavior on the assassin's part. Seeing how the Romance tells of Guan Yu meeting Che Zhou in broad daylight, fighting for a short while, then killing him as Che Zhou tried to run away, I think it is rather important that we discuss the legitimacy of Liu Bei's claim to the rulership of Xuzhou so that Guan Yu would not be accused of murdering an Imperial government official. -- 64.180.11.169 05:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Hehe, 刺 is in the title, not in the action of killing. -- 64.180.11.169 04:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
maybe it's because of the saying that Guan Yu taked Yan Liang by suprise:) Ybfelix 19:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
According to Han Laws, the word "murder" should be used. I don't intend to make the change, but I need to tell you this: Che Zhou was assigned by Han court to rule Xu Province, Liu Bei couldn't just kill him because he used to be the warlord there EkmanLi ( talk) 11:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Of course, I never thought Liu Bei needed to follow the laws. By the way, which powerful warlords would follow the laws of a collapsing empire? EkmanLi ( talk) 11:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"that the surrender was to the Han emperor and not Cao Cao"
So how come the section title is still called "Surrender to Cao Cao"? If Guan Yu had surrendered to Cao Cao, he would most definitely have not been deified and revered as a household god. The technicality of this surrender is very very crucial to his reputation. Guan Yu understood, Zhang Liao understood, Cao Cao understood. Surrendering to Cao Cao is an act of defection. Surrender to Han is acceptable because both Cao Cao and Liu Bei were holding offices under the Han regime. -- 64.180.11.169 05:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Replying to above statements...If we consider Guan Yu and Liu Bei loyal subjects of Han, then they should ask Cao Cao or Emperor Xian to give them the "legitimacy" to rule Xu Province (technically, they should not even ask for it, caz positions can only be granted) instead of killing Che Zhou in the first place(actually it's a murder if we follow the your logic). I don't mean to offend you, but in my point of view, surrendering to the Han court controlled by Cao Cao is no different than surrendering to Cao Cao at the moment Guan Yu was captured. I would say Guan Yu's loyalty lies with Liu Bei than the failing Han Empire. EkmanLi ( talk) 11:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
This is the title Guan Yu earned after defeating Yan Liang. It is all quoted correctly in the article and all, even with a short insert about the relative hierarchy. The English translation of this title in the article is Marquis of Hanshou, which is not quite linguistically correct. The rank of this title is Tinghou, that much is clear. However, the name of this title is Shou, and Shou alone. Han is the name of the regime that gave Guan Yu this title. It would be like, Lord Tennyson of England, rather than Lord England Tennyson. The Chronicle contains a personae, which the Romance copies directly, that lists Shou Tinghou under Guan Yu.
And while we are at this, in the fanatic spirit of historic accuracy, I don't think the Chronicle talks anything about Guan Yu killing Wen Chou. In Guan Yu's account, Wen Chou was never mentioned. In Cao Cao's account, Guan Yu only appeared in the sentence about killing Yan Liang. -- 64.180.233.181 06:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Upon reaching Baima, Guan Yu saw from afar the standard on Yan Liang's chariot and urged his mount towards the latter. He speared Yan Liang amid the enemy troops, and brought back his severed head. Thus Yuan Shao lost an important lieutenant and the siege of Baima was unravelled. Guan Yu was then enfeoffed as Marquis¹ of Hanshou (漢夀亭侯). After doing Cao Cao this favor, Guan Yu declined further gifts from the former. Leaving behind a letter, he left for his former lord, who was still in the camp of Yuan Shao. When some of his subordinates wanted to pursue Guan Yu, Cao Cao stopped them, saying, "To each his own."
i'd like to say that 漢夀-亭侯 or 漢-夀亭侯 is still debated( it is said this argument starts from southern song dynasty ),ex: [1](need to pay to see the full text:( i will try download at college library later), [2].
from what i've seen, seems the former,漢夀-亭侯, is held by larger portion of historians as the right one. Qing literati 毛宗岗 commented, in his edition of RoTK with commentary, "今人见关公为汉寿亭侯,遂以“汉”为国号,而直称之曰“寿亭侯”,即博雅家亦时有此。此起于俗本演义之误也。俗本云:“曹瞒铸寿亭侯印贻公而不受,加以汉字而后受。”是齐东野人之语,读者不察,遂为所误。夫汉寿,地名也。亭侯,爵名也。汉有亭侯、乡侯、通侯之名,如孔愉为余不亭侯,钟繇为东武亭侯,玄德为宜城亭侯之类。<蜀志>:“大将军费祎会诸将于汉寿。”则汉寿亭侯犹言汉寿之亭侯耳,岂可去“汉”字而以“寿亭侯”为名耶?鸡笼山关庙内题主曰:“汉前将军汉寿亭侯之神。”本自了然。余则谓当于外额亦加一汉,曰“汉汉寿亭侯之祠”,则人人洞晓矣。俗本之误,今依古本校正。" ( well,I won't translate this one,:) ),but, it's just his personal opinion of course.and this can be open to debate Ybfelix 19:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The page has been vandalized by some idiots who posted "roflmao" or something like that. Request that a moderator locks this article and use a designated editor.( Psychoneko 17:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Being a very popular deity, I am surprised that there has been no joint effort to improve the scholarly level of this article up to FA status. I personally don't know enough about the subject, otherwise I would do it myself. I actually copied this articles layout--"History", then "Fiction"--for my Zhou Tong (archer) page. Now I know if I can get Zhou Tong to FA status, someone should surely be able to do it to this one.
The one major problem I see is that many editors have a hard time distinguishing between history and fiction, despite there being an obvious split in the formatting. They believe what they read in Romance of the Three Kingdoms to be true history and consequently try to edit the "history" section as such. Then it gets reverted. I'm sure there are some scholarly books and papers out there that would greatly help improve upon this article and help broaden the line between history and fact. I would like to see a scholar's take on how Guan Yu's part in Romance has influenced Chinese society. I know he was one of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei's idols. I need to add that bit to the page.
Anyway, I hope to see this on the main page someday. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 17:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I find that Guan Yu's fictional biography in Romance of the Three Kingdoms is far too detailed compared to his historical biography. I've attempted summarising and reorganising it but I'm rather confused on what should be excluded or included. I've removed some additional information which is not part of the biography, such as how the oath is linked to modern secret societies and so on. Also, I find that the biography is written in a biased tone so I've also attempted to make it sound as "neutral" as possible, although the fictional biography need not necessarily sound "neutral". Hopefully my efforts bring the article closer to FA status. Please discuss on how to improve on writing Guan Yu's fictional biography. I'm considering having a separate page for it, if it's going to be very long. Lonelydarksky ( talk) 13:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I once heard a story that the idea of the red face came from a story where Guan was being chased and washed his face in a blood filled river. The blood stained his face red and meant his pursuers couldn't recognise him. Any info on this tale? ( 79.190.69.142 ( talk) 21:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC))
Guan Yu was said to have killed Lu Xiong at the age of 23 and 5 years later met Liu Bei and Zhang Fei. Now the Rebellion took place in 184AD so Guan Yu would have been 28 at the time he joined the volunteer force. going back 28 years would put Guan Yu's birth around 156AD, meaning Guan Yu was in fact older than Liu Bei which is quit the opposite to what Lu Guan Zhong has written in the novel "Romance of Three Kingdoms". Luo portrayes Liu Bei as the older brother. a debatable subject but it makes sense according to what this article page says about Guan Yu's early life. —Preceding KingDavid47 comment added by 68.190.121.79 ( talk) 12:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think one of the very outstanding "features" of this article is that the fictional biography of Guan Yu is longer than the actual historical biography. Some of the events in the fictional biography have already been mentioned in List of fictitious stories in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Adding them here again might seem repetitive. Why not just remove those "stories" and put a
tag there? _dk suggested above that we just highlight the differences between Guan Yu's fictional and historical biography in the fictional section. That's another way to do it, instead of writing an entire fictional biography. In terms of language, I think this article is generally fluent and free of grammatical or spelling errors. Another suggestion, how about splitting the worship of Guan Yu part into another separate article? Any ideas on how to promote this article to FA status? I think we should consolidate the ideas for improvements in this section instead of having them scattered all over the talk page. There are some good ideas above, such as this one by Ghostexorcist. _ LDS ( talk) 05:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Is this article a biography about a historical figure, or a research of Guan Yuan's folklore and worship??? If someone answers both or finds the above question hard to answer, it's because the article involves much information without a coherent focus (resulting from the difference between a failed general in real-life and a perfect deity in folklore). Therefore, in order for this article to move towards the Good Article status, some aspects of it must be separated out to form another page. Also, by doing so I will be able to provide the cn in a "folklore page" of Guan (I am not going to give cn from an obscure origin, or even add folklore stuff in a historical page caz it's unpofessional and technically strange to do so). ---- EkmanLi ( talk) 10:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
I thought a cattie is rounded to 1/2 kg, so Guan's sword of 82 cattie is about 40kg, and not 40lb. If no objections, then I'll change the number given in article. 213.1.15.144 ( talk) 15:42, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Maybe this huge statue in his birth city Yucheng should be mentioned: http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/05/landscapes-altered-by-the-worlds-largest-statues/ Lastdingo ( talk) 03:29, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:37, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the Lady Guan page were merged into Guan Yu on 11 February 2013. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | Guan Yu was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Guan Yu article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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This article follows the tale of Guan Yu given in Luo Guanzhong's "Romance of the Three Kingoms" and makes little effort to reconcile this fictional account with the historical account given in Chen Shou's "Sanguo Zhi".
In section 1 paragraph 1: he fled to the northern frontier town of Zhuo, where he joined Liu Bei, a local notable. What's a "notable"? Is it supposed to be "noble"? From what I understand, though Liu does trace his bloodlines to an already distant branch of the imperial family, the connection is so distant that he could hardly be considered nobility. (Not to mention that he was described as a strawhatter in the RotTK -- albeit one that's literate.)
Yes, that is supposed to be noble- Azi Dahaka
Hi fellow editors. i've made several major changes to this article over the past few days. Among these were the movement of contents from Guan Gong to here, as well as rewriting of most stuffs originally here. The latter is a matter of style and up to individual liking, but i'd like to point out three factual corrections i had made.
That's all for now. i'd be doing more reorganizing for the remaining sections in the days to come. Hope you guys like it. :) -- Plastictv 10:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe "Guanneihou" is the lowest rank of marquis at that time, instead of "Tinghou" ("Tinghou" is different from "Dutinghou", and is higher in rank than the latter as I can recall). EkmanLi ( talk) 10:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
This was added by an unregistered user (IP address: 165.21.154.10). It seems to be a quote by Guan Yu from a Buddhist scripture. i removed it because: 1. the information is not relevant; 2. it is not sourced; 3. it is not translated.
-- Plastictv 11:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
i've roughly completed my work on Guan Yu. However, it is still far below satisfactory. i'd like to add more info on Guan Yu worship as well as Guan Yu in operas but the issues are complex and my knowledge in these areas is utterly hopeless. Anyone who is an expert in this please help? i'd also like to make the article more concise without losing important details but didn't seem able to do so... -- Plastictv 05:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe there should be redirects for the cantonese spellings of words (ie: General Kwan->Guan Yu) As a practicioner of Hung Gar, I am more familiar with cantonese pronouciacion of Kwan Do and General Kwan, and it took me alot longer than it needed to to find this article.
The reason why Guan Yu as Sangharama wields a sword is that guandao did not exist at the time Guan Yu was deified in Buddhism. The idea of guandao probably came much later in Yuan Dynasty or even Ming Dynasty, appearing in operas and, of course, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. i also put "Sangharama Bodhisattva" in parenthesis because it is not Guan Yu Buddhists are worshipping, but rather Sangharama (just like a monk adopts a faith name and abandons his mortal name when he enters the faith).
It is also arguable whether we should transliterate his famous weapon as Guan Dao, Guan Dao, guandao or perhaps something else. i'd support guandao, though. -- Plastictv 15:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
i removed the following text addded by the previous editor because it gives a fictional account of Guan Yu's departure from Cao Cao, which is already covered in the "Guan Yu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms" section. There is a difference between historical record and historical novel.
Hopefully with this explanation, nobody gets offended by the removal. :) -- Plastictv 15:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Re. folklore 21 December 2005 Folklore about Guan Yu is part of the tradition. One would not delete fictional accounts from an article simply because they are not historical. Rather, one can distinquish folklore that is probably fictional from what seems to be more certain historically in an article.
User 69.231.246.224 changed the text "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" to "Blue Moon Dragon". I posted the following on their talk page:
Having not heard anything from them, I have now restored the text to "Green Dragon Crescent Blade". Stelio 19:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
in wiki's chinese myth pages,青龙 is translated into "Azure dragon". However, i prefer the "green" idea, since traditionally Guan Yu is linked to green color.( perhaps the green robe Liu Bei gave him in RoTK? )(btw,green is adopted as national color of Shu in Koei's Dynasty Warriors series) Ybfelix 18:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
青 was referred to the color of blue or black during Han Dynasty. EkmanLi ( talk) 11:03, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, in a non-classical context, 青 is probably more accurately referring to blue. I don't think Koei enters into historical discussion, but most likely you are right regarding green, as this is closest to accepted parlance. WatersD ( talk) 03:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
I have absolutely nothing negative to say about this article. It is long, detailed, and thorough, and even includes a good number of pictures. I especially like the top one, which is of great quality and clarity, and of a good, impressive size, without infringing upon the text at all. The article treats not only the historical Guan Yu, but also the fictional Guan Yu from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, along with the portrayal of Guan Yu in gaming, and the worship of him in various places and faiths. I am nominating this for "Good Article" status, and, I don't see why not, for A-class status as well. If there is anything to be improved here, it is the general clean-up and maintenance that any article requires - nothing's 100% perfect. LordAmeth 01:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a good article. Work on including footnotes. If you have no footnotes, do not bother nominating it as a Good Article. -- GoOdCoNtEnT 06:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"Also according to folklore, Guan Yu's weapon was a guandao named Blue Dragon Crescent Blade, which resembled a halberd and was said to weigh 82 jin (41 kilograms using today's standards)."
On the Guan Do page it says:
"Guan Yu's guan dao was called "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" (青龍偃月刀) which weighed 82 Chinese jin (estimated 49 kg.)"
Which is correct?
The unit of weight "jin" is currently standardized to be exactly 500g. But throughout the history of China, the quantity of this measurement fluctuated a great deal. (Much like how "chi" is. This unit of length s 33.3 cm by today's standard, which would make Guan Yu a 3 meter giant). Since we cannot pinpoint the year, or even the dynasty of Luo's authorship (or has that been officially determined?), there is no way to know for sure how much a "jin" was to Luo. Personally, I would go with the heaviest estimation. -- 64.180.11.169 06:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
During Han Dynasty, the word 青 was mainly referred to black (or blue/indigo). Note that during Qing Dynasty (the time Mao's 120 chapters Sanguozhi yanyi came to this world), the word 青 was usually referred to blue (indigo), or green. -- EkmanLi ( talk) 11:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"In 199 Liu Bei assassinated the Governor of Xu Zhou appointed by the rising warlord Cao Cao"
It is barely of any concern for the reputation of Guan Yu at first glance. But there is no indication from either the Romance or the Chronicle that the method of Che Zhou's demise was assassination, which implies unhonorable behavior on the assassin's part. Seeing how the Romance tells of Guan Yu meeting Che Zhou in broad daylight, fighting for a short while, then killing him as Che Zhou tried to run away, I think it is rather important that we discuss the legitimacy of Liu Bei's claim to the rulership of Xuzhou so that Guan Yu would not be accused of murdering an Imperial government official. -- 64.180.11.169 05:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Hehe, 刺 is in the title, not in the action of killing. -- 64.180.11.169 04:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
maybe it's because of the saying that Guan Yu taked Yan Liang by suprise:) Ybfelix 19:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
According to Han Laws, the word "murder" should be used. I don't intend to make the change, but I need to tell you this: Che Zhou was assigned by Han court to rule Xu Province, Liu Bei couldn't just kill him because he used to be the warlord there EkmanLi ( talk) 11:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Of course, I never thought Liu Bei needed to follow the laws. By the way, which powerful warlords would follow the laws of a collapsing empire? EkmanLi ( talk) 11:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
On the Guan Yu page it says:
"that the surrender was to the Han emperor and not Cao Cao"
So how come the section title is still called "Surrender to Cao Cao"? If Guan Yu had surrendered to Cao Cao, he would most definitely have not been deified and revered as a household god. The technicality of this surrender is very very crucial to his reputation. Guan Yu understood, Zhang Liao understood, Cao Cao understood. Surrendering to Cao Cao is an act of defection. Surrender to Han is acceptable because both Cao Cao and Liu Bei were holding offices under the Han regime. -- 64.180.11.169 05:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Replying to above statements...If we consider Guan Yu and Liu Bei loyal subjects of Han, then they should ask Cao Cao or Emperor Xian to give them the "legitimacy" to rule Xu Province (technically, they should not even ask for it, caz positions can only be granted) instead of killing Che Zhou in the first place(actually it's a murder if we follow the your logic). I don't mean to offend you, but in my point of view, surrendering to the Han court controlled by Cao Cao is no different than surrendering to Cao Cao at the moment Guan Yu was captured. I would say Guan Yu's loyalty lies with Liu Bei than the failing Han Empire. EkmanLi ( talk) 11:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
This is the title Guan Yu earned after defeating Yan Liang. It is all quoted correctly in the article and all, even with a short insert about the relative hierarchy. The English translation of this title in the article is Marquis of Hanshou, which is not quite linguistically correct. The rank of this title is Tinghou, that much is clear. However, the name of this title is Shou, and Shou alone. Han is the name of the regime that gave Guan Yu this title. It would be like, Lord Tennyson of England, rather than Lord England Tennyson. The Chronicle contains a personae, which the Romance copies directly, that lists Shou Tinghou under Guan Yu.
And while we are at this, in the fanatic spirit of historic accuracy, I don't think the Chronicle talks anything about Guan Yu killing Wen Chou. In Guan Yu's account, Wen Chou was never mentioned. In Cao Cao's account, Guan Yu only appeared in the sentence about killing Yan Liang. -- 64.180.233.181 06:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Upon reaching Baima, Guan Yu saw from afar the standard on Yan Liang's chariot and urged his mount towards the latter. He speared Yan Liang amid the enemy troops, and brought back his severed head. Thus Yuan Shao lost an important lieutenant and the siege of Baima was unravelled. Guan Yu was then enfeoffed as Marquis¹ of Hanshou (漢夀亭侯). After doing Cao Cao this favor, Guan Yu declined further gifts from the former. Leaving behind a letter, he left for his former lord, who was still in the camp of Yuan Shao. When some of his subordinates wanted to pursue Guan Yu, Cao Cao stopped them, saying, "To each his own."
i'd like to say that 漢夀-亭侯 or 漢-夀亭侯 is still debated( it is said this argument starts from southern song dynasty ),ex: [1](need to pay to see the full text:( i will try download at college library later), [2].
from what i've seen, seems the former,漢夀-亭侯, is held by larger portion of historians as the right one. Qing literati 毛宗岗 commented, in his edition of RoTK with commentary, "今人见关公为汉寿亭侯,遂以“汉”为国号,而直称之曰“寿亭侯”,即博雅家亦时有此。此起于俗本演义之误也。俗本云:“曹瞒铸寿亭侯印贻公而不受,加以汉字而后受。”是齐东野人之语,读者不察,遂为所误。夫汉寿,地名也。亭侯,爵名也。汉有亭侯、乡侯、通侯之名,如孔愉为余不亭侯,钟繇为东武亭侯,玄德为宜城亭侯之类。<蜀志>:“大将军费祎会诸将于汉寿。”则汉寿亭侯犹言汉寿之亭侯耳,岂可去“汉”字而以“寿亭侯”为名耶?鸡笼山关庙内题主曰:“汉前将军汉寿亭侯之神。”本自了然。余则谓当于外额亦加一汉,曰“汉汉寿亭侯之祠”,则人人洞晓矣。俗本之误,今依古本校正。" ( well,I won't translate this one,:) ),but, it's just his personal opinion of course.and this can be open to debate Ybfelix 19:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The page has been vandalized by some idiots who posted "roflmao" or something like that. Request that a moderator locks this article and use a designated editor.( Psychoneko 17:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Being a very popular deity, I am surprised that there has been no joint effort to improve the scholarly level of this article up to FA status. I personally don't know enough about the subject, otherwise I would do it myself. I actually copied this articles layout--"History", then "Fiction"--for my Zhou Tong (archer) page. Now I know if I can get Zhou Tong to FA status, someone should surely be able to do it to this one.
The one major problem I see is that many editors have a hard time distinguishing between history and fiction, despite there being an obvious split in the formatting. They believe what they read in Romance of the Three Kingdoms to be true history and consequently try to edit the "history" section as such. Then it gets reverted. I'm sure there are some scholarly books and papers out there that would greatly help improve upon this article and help broaden the line between history and fact. I would like to see a scholar's take on how Guan Yu's part in Romance has influenced Chinese society. I know he was one of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei's idols. I need to add that bit to the page.
Anyway, I hope to see this on the main page someday. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 17:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I find that Guan Yu's fictional biography in Romance of the Three Kingdoms is far too detailed compared to his historical biography. I've attempted summarising and reorganising it but I'm rather confused on what should be excluded or included. I've removed some additional information which is not part of the biography, such as how the oath is linked to modern secret societies and so on. Also, I find that the biography is written in a biased tone so I've also attempted to make it sound as "neutral" as possible, although the fictional biography need not necessarily sound "neutral". Hopefully my efforts bring the article closer to FA status. Please discuss on how to improve on writing Guan Yu's fictional biography. I'm considering having a separate page for it, if it's going to be very long. Lonelydarksky ( talk) 13:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I once heard a story that the idea of the red face came from a story where Guan was being chased and washed his face in a blood filled river. The blood stained his face red and meant his pursuers couldn't recognise him. Any info on this tale? ( 79.190.69.142 ( talk) 21:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC))
Guan Yu was said to have killed Lu Xiong at the age of 23 and 5 years later met Liu Bei and Zhang Fei. Now the Rebellion took place in 184AD so Guan Yu would have been 28 at the time he joined the volunteer force. going back 28 years would put Guan Yu's birth around 156AD, meaning Guan Yu was in fact older than Liu Bei which is quit the opposite to what Lu Guan Zhong has written in the novel "Romance of Three Kingdoms". Luo portrayes Liu Bei as the older brother. a debatable subject but it makes sense according to what this article page says about Guan Yu's early life. —Preceding KingDavid47 comment added by 68.190.121.79 ( talk) 12:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think one of the very outstanding "features" of this article is that the fictional biography of Guan Yu is longer than the actual historical biography. Some of the events in the fictional biography have already been mentioned in List of fictitious stories in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Adding them here again might seem repetitive. Why not just remove those "stories" and put a
tag there? _dk suggested above that we just highlight the differences between Guan Yu's fictional and historical biography in the fictional section. That's another way to do it, instead of writing an entire fictional biography. In terms of language, I think this article is generally fluent and free of grammatical or spelling errors. Another suggestion, how about splitting the worship of Guan Yu part into another separate article? Any ideas on how to promote this article to FA status? I think we should consolidate the ideas for improvements in this section instead of having them scattered all over the talk page. There are some good ideas above, such as this one by Ghostexorcist. _ LDS ( talk) 05:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Is this article a biography about a historical figure, or a research of Guan Yuan's folklore and worship??? If someone answers both or finds the above question hard to answer, it's because the article involves much information without a coherent focus (resulting from the difference between a failed general in real-life and a perfect deity in folklore). Therefore, in order for this article to move towards the Good Article status, some aspects of it must be separated out to form another page. Also, by doing so I will be able to provide the cn in a "folklore page" of Guan (I am not going to give cn from an obscure origin, or even add folklore stuff in a historical page caz it's unpofessional and technically strange to do so). ---- EkmanLi ( talk) 10:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
I thought a cattie is rounded to 1/2 kg, so Guan's sword of 82 cattie is about 40kg, and not 40lb. If no objections, then I'll change the number given in article. 213.1.15.144 ( talk) 15:42, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Maybe this huge statue in his birth city Yucheng should be mentioned: http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/05/landscapes-altered-by-the-worlds-largest-statues/ Lastdingo ( talk) 03:29, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
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