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Well i just think that Bush's old stuff was Grunge and if Hole was classed as Grunge so should Bush. They were more Grunge then Hole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 03:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah i totally agree with you. Im sick of people putting bush in a post grunge genre, they were around before kurt died. So if more people argue this point, we could hopefully convince them to keep bush on the out of the seattle are grunge bands. --
JBrocksthehouse (
talk)
21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
They generally utilized a more commercial-friendly, less "dirty" production for the most part and even had a cleaned up "hearthrob" at the center of their line-up (seriously? How anti-grunge is that?). Their first record was released well after 1992. They are POST-GRUNGE, and you're just going to have to accept it. And by the way, they are not the only band who formed/recorded before Cobain's death to be classified under the post-grunge category (Live and Candlebox are other notable examples). 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 09:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree totally with the above. If being commercial, radio-friendly etc makes you non-grunge, then please could you enlighten me as to what Nirvana's "Nevermind" classes as? And as for grunge musicians not being allowed to be good-looking, no one seems to have told the thousands of girls and young women who seemed to think Cobain was plenty bone-able. Anyway, as for Bush, I have added their name to the list, and inserted a reference to a respectable source describing them as grunge. So, person above the person above me, it would appear YOU are the one who is "just going to have to accept it". Peace xxx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.127.118 ( talk) 13:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Theburning25 ( talk) 01:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure as to why Bush isn't included either, surely there are multiple reliable sources citing them as such. Hoponpop69 ( talk) 20:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Were R.E.M., the rock band from Georgia, a grunge band? They were once described this way on Stars in their Eyes. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 09:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone should add Soul Asylum to the list of Prominent bands Outside the Seattle area. They where defiantly a part of that grunge scene and had allot of success in the 90's after there triple-platinum album "Grave Dancers Union" in 1992 and winning a Grammy Award for the song "Runaway Train" in 1994. The band also played the Bill Clinton inauguration and where doing the grunge thing long before Babes in Toyland in Minneapolis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.17.55.141 ( talk) 23:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
how come underground bands like pet salad and garden blue aint mentioned underground bands like them keep grunge alive —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
im going to add a revival section if everyone lets me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
well they do have they're own websites and spirit of metal has references to many new grunge bands and a page on last fm about the subject Justing101 ( talk) 04:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC) justing101
right im adding it now Justing101 ( talk) 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)justing101
I was just thinking that "Hard rock" would fit the influences spot for grunge. Bands like Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith and stuff had an impact. Just thought I'd consolt it here. (This is CheezerRox4502, just forgot my password) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.142.112 ( talk) 23:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Hard rock should be added to the spot of influences for grunge. This way, musicians like The Stooges and Neil Young ("The Godfather of Grunge") would be noticed. -- Rivet138 ( talk) 18:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Rivet138
I agree with the whole hard rock being an influence. like listen to the riffs on the songs breed from nirvana. thats a pretty damn heavy riff for grunge. And some of the riffs from alice and chains and pearl jam. -- JBrocksthehouse ( talk) 21:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I too agree with that. The Who is also an influence that many grunge bands have covered some of their songs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.145.200.106 ( talk) 13:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I sure would think that Hard Rock is a more accurate genre influence than Heavy Metal. Still, if Metal is going to be left in then Hard Rock shouldn't need to be included as well. 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 09:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
I think we should change Heavy Metal to Hard Rock.-- 79.115.179.48 ( talk) 08:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
We shouldn't. It was influenced by Heavy Metal, not Hard Rock. Don't forget that Hard Rock isn't just a harder classic rock. Not every heavy form of rock is related to it.-- 79.115.178.97 ( talk) 16:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Hard Rock is a better term than Heavy Metal. If one were to listen to the song structures of grunge bands such as Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, and Pearl Jam, one can recognize the influence of Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, and Jimi Hendricks (respectively), all of which are hard rock groups, not metal groups. However, it does seem that hard rock has become absorbed by heavy metal (for the most part), and most people cannot hear the difference anymore, so I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.74.80 ( talk) 05:38, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
This is not a forum for discussing grunge in general, it is only for article improvement. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is ridiculous none of those bands are grunge. I personally think of grunge as the Seattle Sound. Someone will bring up here that they all sound different but it's the Seattle Sound i.e. based on geographical location. It even says it within the article here - Arm used grunge as a descriptive term rather than a genre term, but it eventually came to describe the punk/metal hybrid sound of the Seattle music scene.[4] So what is the basis for those bands being there? That they have a punk/metal sound? I can think of lots more bands from the period who could fit into that section, Hum must be grunge by that logic, sure i suppose Helmet is grunge too. When i go to remove the bands it says that Silverchair, Smashing Pumpkins etc. cannot be included... Why not!? What makes them so different from Stone Temple Pilots or Hole. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It even says here regarding STP: "Anti Grunge From a 1993 interview, "Although STP takes pains to distance itself from the grunge groups (Weiland jokingly labels himself a "new wave Renaissance guy"), the singer also admits his band is riding the grunge wave." Just because he is riding the grunge wave doesn't mean the band is grunge. By the logic of this article any band who came out in the early 90s and has a metal/punk sound is grunge and that is simply not correct. Also if these bands were so major in the genre why are they not mentioned in the history? It also says in this article "Grunge evolved from the local punk rock scene (in Seattle) - How could those bands be influenced by the Seattle local punk rock scene if they are not from Seattle. Can we use a bit of common sense here...-- Alowishus321 ( talk) 22:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC) The problem here is that no-one seems to remember what grunge means. Nirvana were pretty much grunge in the beginning but not so much later on, Pearl Jam were never grunge, Soundgarden were never grunge, Alice In Chains weren't grunge but had some grungey tracks. The Seattle scene is not the same thing as grunge, the two terms were confused by the media; journalists asked a few talking heads and random kids from Seattle what the sound that was going around Seattle was called and they answered "grunge", which was true. Unfortunately, people took this to mean that all bands from the Seattle area were grunge bands when this was not in fact the case. Everyone who knows the history of grunge knows that, but Wikipedia seems to have missed it. The bands that actually played grunge were not as successful as the so-called big four grunge bands (unless you include Nirvana, who got big after ditching the grungier elements of their sound) because grunge is a not a very commercial sound, therefore most people have never heard real grunge, and so the confusion continues. As Wikipedia operates under the pretense of being an impartial encyclopedia it would be nice if Wikipedia helped to put this grunge myth to rest, but sadly this will never happen as most so-called reliable sources do not know what grunge means. Note that Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden don't sound very similar at all, and the only genre that you can fit the three bands into comfortably is rock. Alice In Chains were really outsiders who were influenced by the Seattle scene (including grunge, to an extent), they were regarded as phonies by many inside the Seattle scene at the time because they were originally a glam rock band who appeared to change their sound when some alternative rock bands from Seattle got big, though I personally think they were a great band, better than Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Though essentially a pop-rock band, Pearl Jam were accepted because they had roots going right back to Green River. Soundgarden were basically a metal band with psychedelic influences until later on in their career, where they became more eclectic. The fact that none of the so-called big four grunge bands actually played grunge for the most part does not seem to matter any more, that is why there is so much confusion about what is or isn't grunge. Bleach by Nirvana is the only album by any of those four bands that could be described as a grunge album, though it is not entirely grunge. I hope that clears it up for you, though most likely I have confused you even more! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.121.206 ( talk) 14:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
Well, a more accurate definition of grunge would somewhat improve the article, in my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.121.206 ( talk) 02:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I come back a year later to find that some idiot has pushed my post into "discussing information in the manner of a forum". I was informing on inaccuracies in the article and backing it up with information. Isn't that the whole point of this site?! The fact that someone replied to my post in that matter has nothing to do with me. The person who replied to me is entitled to their opinion but i backed up my claims with information from other articles on THIS SITE which directly contradicts what is being said in this one. If you want to claim that what i am saying is some gibberish then by all means continue thinking that. I was just attempting to improve this article. Bands like Smashing Pumpkins are not, have never been and never will be grunge. Like i rightly pointed out if this article is going to continue on the route it is going basically every alt metal/rock band from the early 90s is going to be appearing on the list of bands. It is totally ludicrous and yet people are still piling on discussions below this suggesting "band x oh they must be grunge". This is truly one of the contradicting pages on the whole site. -- Alowishus321 ( talk) 00:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
i think you should add it as a derivative form of grunge or maybe as a stylistic origin because Aic, Soundgarden and the melvins are considered the godfather's of alternative metal and are two of the earliest bands to be labeled alternative metal. i'm not sure though because it says both genre's began around the same time in the mid 80s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.220.148 ( talk) 09:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
This article has too many words and reflects an African-American point of view. It should be reduced in size. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.93.31 ( talk) 23:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I think nu-metal should be in the derivative genres section because nu-metal bands definately did derive their sound from grunge music. If not in the derivatives section, grunge's influence on nu-metal should at least be mentioned on here.
This article is not neutral in terms of the early Grunge movement giving Nirvana with "smell like teen spirit" and Pear Jam full credit for starting it or being the most popular bands of the era. Definetly not accurate! Before Nirvana came into the scene Alice in Chains with the album "Facelift" was already making noise in MTV and the whole world.
NU-metal is a stupid sub genre, i think its a load of crap and i hate some of the bands that get called nu-metal, like distrubed for example, im trying to convince people that distrubed are progressive metal. -- JBrocksthehouse ( talk) 21:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Um no, Nu-Metal has no real reason to be mentioned here. It crosses over with post-grunge music quite often, but pretty much is it's own offshoot of Alternative Metal inspired largely by Faith No More and RHCP (non-grunge bands), and has little in common with the original Grunge bands. As far as I know the "Heavy Metal" article covers that particular topic, and it's fine there. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC) i'm removing nu metal from derivative forms since grunge was just a minor influence to nu metal (and it's unsourced) — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey ( talk • contribs) 15:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm a little blown away these guys didn't make the Outside Seattle grunge band list...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.95.162.44 ( talk) 19:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
What do you mean "rvt largely unsource and otherwise problematic errors?" that's the statement you used to removed what I had wrote about Tales of Terror in the Grunge article, I don't understand it, so can you explain me please?. I thought the two references I wrote were enough reliable sources. DustyCoffin ( talk) 16:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
someone should make an article for grunge metal, as that would be a good of separating the heavier grunge bands from the more punk influenced ones, and it could also be used to describe the 80s metal bands that experimented with grunge in the 90s (motley crue, anthrax etc.) as well as post-grunge bands like nickelback and creed — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Please do not compare post grunge to grunge. Post grunge is an insult to grunge's existence and does not deserve to be lumped together. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
DustyCoffin ( talk · contribs) is dead set on including Tales of Terror as some forerunner of grunge, and are not afraid of edit-warring to keep that information in, sourced to this article. Here's the problem:
If anyone can make a decent argument as to why this should be kept, with all the problems cited above (in addition to the problem that no one else has heard of this band), I'd love to hear it. In the meantime, DustyCoffin has been reported for edit-warring. Drmies ( talk) 21:26, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Who said I'm 'in the in the advocacy game'? And what I think I meant is that he said an encyclopedia reflects what exists in the outside world, well Tales' influence is something real, what haven't you read what I wrote, I'm not making that up, it's not as if it is my band and I'm spamming; I submitted it here 'cause I saw this info wasn't here, every time somebody submits something here is 'cause they want people to know it, right? Contribute to the 'encyclopedia.' So every single time somebody tries to submit new info then you people will impede it jealousy? DustyCoffin ( talk) 14:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Recently Soundgarden released the new album King Animal and some of the editors keep telling me that because it's not from the 80s or 90s that it can't be grunge even if it's sourced as such while also sounding like grunge and being by a band known as a "grunge band." The same problem occurs with Alice in Chain's album Black Gives Way to Blue. Personally I think both albums are clearly grunge and I'd like some help in making sure they are labeled so because editors on both pages keep removing grunge from their genre sections. They're arguments are only that "grunge is a time period", but I thought grunge was just a sub genre and the grunge article seems to agree with me. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
The way I see it: if it's a genre it has no expiration date and King Animal and Black Gives Way to Blue's articles should be labeled as grunge. If it's only a time period don't allow grunge as a genre for any album article, not even Nevermind, Ten, or Badmotorfinger. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 02:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Grunge isn't dead. The whole section about Alice in Chains needs revision as the band has reformed (without deceased Lane Staley) and put out a widely praised album, "Black Gives Way to Blue." I think the album is selling as well as can be expected in a file swapping world. I leave any changes for the wiki gurus to evaluate and make.
OCT 30, 2009 Bobroberts248 ( talk) 14:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Or the fact that Soundgarden has a new album and another successful single. STP hasn't really been grunge since Purple though, they went through drastic sound changes after that just like Hole didn't after Live Through This. But, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, and Pearl Jam are all still active and have albums in the 2000s. People need to remember there's more grunge bands than Nirvana. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
None of the bands are making full-fledged albums that sound exactly like 'grunge' sound you know. If you watch the making of 'King Animal' videos on youtube Chris Cornell clearly states that he doesn't really want to make more full-fledged grunge or heavy metal albums. He wants to make something different and experimental with some traces of the band's trademark sound. On the other hand Alice in Chains' comeback was more like a full-fledged metal band dressed up in all black leather if you see the promotionals of Black gives Way to Blue. And the album sounded like something in between traditional melodic heavy metal with riffs and heavy bits reminiscent of bands like Candlemass, Type o Negative here and there and the album has won Metal Hammer best album of the year as well. And as Mrmoustache14 said STP hasn't really been grunge since Purple, more of southern rock and generic hard rock. Pearl Jam is making generic alternative rock records that sound nothing like 'grunge' to me. Their last 'grunge' record according to me is Vitalogy. Mudhoney is somewhere between garage rock, art rock and punk rock now. Ravenlord5150 ( talk) 07:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Most grunge bands were NOT uncomfortable with their popularity, only Nirvana was... actually that's not even true JUST Kurt Cobain. I'm removing this. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Are there any new Grunge bands out nowadays? At least underground laced ones? The post-grunge sounds more watered down than the raw, visceral real sound of Grunge. Why isn't there a list of new underground Grunge bands? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.245.51 ( talk) 03:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
There are a lot of new grunge bands; unfortunately Wikipedia's guidelines make it very hard to actually mention them without them getting deleted, as it's hard to hit critical mass and get mentioned in a newspaper. 98.216.65.237 ( talk) 01:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, which guidelines exactly? If there's recent underground bands why not put a sub-section on the main page for a list of new, underground Grunge bands? To signify that despite the post-grunge, mainstream phase you still have a continuous and low-level scene going on with the genre. Grunge is a speciic type of genre, it's not a historical precursor like Protopunk or Post-Punk which were only titled in specific timeframes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentrazemine ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I've tried that before, but apparently wikipedia is extremely strict in that it doesn't let you put anything unless it had sources, and the proper ones at that, and they don't allow facebook or myspace pages, so it's really hard to get any sort of lists or band mentions, but I have a facebook page called "Spread the word of good newer grunge bands" if you want to check that out, with several lists in notes, and there have been over 400 bands posted. Some notable ones that everyone seems to love include Violent Soho, Senium, Nukeateen, Noiseheads, Dinosaur Pile-Up, Japanese Voyeurs, Cable35, Thee Now Sound, Viole(n)t Bullfrog, Valentiine, Inedia, Dirty Bliss, The Heroine Whores, and Dave's Pawn Shop. 96.229.229.77 ( talk) 09:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
In case you're wondering Japanese Voyeurs already has a wikipedia page. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 11:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
They have their own article. They were formed in the 90s in Tacoma, Washington. Their debut album was in 1991 and they're considered punk rock and grunge. They also were on the Sub Pop label. Their version of "Go Your Own Way" by Fleetwood Mac was in the famous cult classic Clerks and have worked and toured along side Mudhoney. A song of theirs "Kid Candy" was known enough to be featured on Beavis and Butthead. Why aren't they on this list? They're surely more important of a grunge band and more successful than Hammerbox, Gruntruck, and Blood Circus (though those 3 definitely deserve to be on the list) so does Seaweed. The guy who linked "Seaweed" linked the plant article isntead of the band article which is titled "Seaweed (band)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJcoIEWB1C0 <-If you'd like evidence of their sound here's "Kid Candy" Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
i don't know how to add citations, but cobain cites raping a slave as one of his 50 biggest influences and a google search will pull up quotes by buzz osborne talking about swans. in fact, if you cross-reference through wiki itself, you'll see swans mentioned on the melvins page, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.135 ( talk) 17:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
interviewre:Yeah! Because it's like - you listen to that and it's just absolutely - there's no precedent for it at all! Is there? I mean, it's like you invented an entirely new - not grunge, but an entirely new genre. It's just such a bizarre form of music you're playing on there.
buzz osborne:Yeah! That's a weird one.
i: How did you come up with that sound? What was going on in that point in time that would result in you creating that kind of music? bo: Well, at the time, we were listening to a lot of Swans, Gang of Four's "Solid Gold" album which has remained a favorite, umm.Public Image Limited's "Flowers of Romance" - that was another big positive influence for us. Uhh. Meat Puppets II. Not as much Sabbath as people would imagine at that point; we were actually much more into Black Flag than Black Sabbath at that period in time. We liked them, but..
i: Yeah, but none of that music sounds at all like Gluey Porch Treatments. I mean, for the first five minutes of that record, you can't even tell what speed it's supposed to be on! bo: Yeah, that first song's pretty slow. But you have to think of that album in terms of the place and time it was created. It was recorded at the end of 1986, which was the height of -
i: Oh! Hardcore punk. bo: SKINHEAD hardcore. And we didn't like it at all. We didn't like their whole attitude - towards us especially! So we wanted to do something that made us totally opposite to what they were doing. Which were the kinds of things that made us happy! Bands like Venom. We were really into Venom and Flipper and the Swans. Stuff like that. And some Sabbath too, I guess. Though I think I was listening to the Dio stuff at that time. Probably Heaven and Hell more than any of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.135 ( talk) 06:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
There should be a section on Australian bands and their influence on Grunge. It seems odd to quote Mark Arm citing Australia as the birthplace of Grunge, and then not go into further detail. So here's a bunch of facts and quotes I've collected in just a short while:
124.169.174.92 ( talk) 21:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
It is important that the information about Soundgarden's recent history is mentioned and not removed because their grunge releases and success are relevant to the exposure of grunge in recent years. For example, the grunge album Telephantasm recieved the first ever platinum certification in the United States based on video games sales and their 2012 studio album reached the top five in at least three countries and number six in the World Chart. This is important to the article because it demonstrates that grunge as a genre has had some mainstream success in recent years. It would be better therefore, to keep this in the article somehow instead of pretending that grunge just didn't exist after 1997. It isn't just Soundgarden either. Mudhoney have also been releasing grunge studio albums in the 21st century -- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 19:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but i really think hard rock should be included as a stylistic origin. What genre do the so called "big 4" grunge bands (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, AIC) all fall under? - hard rock, and all 4 have mentioned hard rock/classic rock bands as influences. Having heavy metal but not hard rock is sort of misleading, since not every grunge band (Pearl Jam and Hole for example) is influenced by metal, while basically every grunge band has been inspired by hard rock. I'm confident there are sources out there confirming that hard rock is an origin as well. I call the big one bitey 22:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Well Alice in Chains really early stuff (glam metal days to Facelift) is both hard rock and metal, same applies for every Soundgarden album excluding "Down on the Upside" which is more of an alternative rock album. And the two metal band's that mainly influenced grunge (Black Sabbath and Led Zep) are both considered hard rock/classic rock bands. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were never really directly influenced by any "pure" metal bands like Iron Maiden, Slayer, etc. I call the big one bitey 02:10, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
But that's only Alice in Chains, who along with Melvins, are the most extreme example of metal influence in grunge. Both are better described as alternative metal or traditional heavy metal anyway. The regular grunge band is mainly influenced by punk, (e.g sonic youth) indie (e.g pixies) and hard rock (eg. Led Zep, Black Sabbath). Also adding hard rock to the infobox would be a good way to differentiate with alternative metal, since that would help imply that grunge is overall softer and less metal leaning than alt metal, because after looking at both articles, the average reader with little music knowledge could assume both genres are the exact same thing. I call the big one bitey 02:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
They came up in the Seattle scene as early as 1990. They might not have the depressive outlook as Nirvana but honestly neither did Pearl Jam. Candlebox had the sound and vocals of a grunge band. I'll admit they are on the lighter side of grunge but they came out way too early to be considered post-grunge. They should be listed under Seattle bands. ( Xffactor ( talk) 03:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC))
They have been considered grunge. Perhaps not "original grunge" but they have been referred too has lite grunge or even post-grunge, which I think they came out too soon to be post-grunge. I'm not saying they are just because of being from Seattle, but let's face it grunge seems to require more street cred than rap. My point was simply that Candlebox formed from everything going on around them. Their debut does have a pop quality but there are a lot of grunge qualities as well. Some people will insist that none of the bands who actually made it were grunge. That Tad and Mother Love Bone are the only real grunge bands. Kurt Cobain used to trash Pearl Jam all the time saying that they were fake and were stealing alternative kids money. I guess it's up to ones interpretation since the STP argument is still going on. When you break down the big 5, PJ, STP, Nirvana, AIC, and Soundgarden, they have similar qualities but sound completely different. ( Xffactor ( talk) 18:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC))
Well Soundgarden is completely different from the other big 4 since they're from the original grunge scene (Green River, U-Men, Soundgarden, Melvins, Malfunkshun, Skin Yard) You know Deep Six an early grunge release dating back to1986, so it's safe to say Soundgarden is clearly grunge. Alice in Chains hate the term, but almost everyone cites them as grunge and they were close to Mother Love Bone and Soundgarden members in both friendship and music style. Nirvana also fits into the scene based on style and although I love them, Stone Temple Pilots kind of just "jumped onto the grunge band wagon" after it was popular, but still definitely made grunge. Pearl Jam did have members who were in grunge bands (Green River, Mother Love Bone), if you look at their work after Vitalogy, they actually started to be considered post-grunge and I can agree with Cobain in saying they tried a little too hard when it came to being commercial, a very un grunge like way. Though Pearl Jam is borderline grunge, it's still grunge and will be almost always cited as such. Candlebox? They're almost always cited as post-grunge, and even though some references call them grunge, they're probably the same articles that called The Smashing Pumpkins and Jane's Addictions grunge (which are both obviously just alternative rock.) -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh I totally agree with Soundgarden, myself. They never really get the credit they deserve for how much work they put in before grunge became "a thing." They were the one actual original that made it. I've AIC rejected the grunge sound and Jerry said that they never even dressed the part until their label suggested they do. The thing with Pearl Jam is they did the ultimate to reject the mainstream back then which was to reject MTV after "Jeremy." That's what always bothered me about Kurt's views on them. Nirvana, although Kurt said he hated it, fully embraced the position they were in. They were all over MTV right up until his death. PJ's sound was cleaner than Nirvana and definitely went more towards just hard rock after 10. I don't think they tried too hard, I just think they had a different idea on where they wanted to go with their music. I honestly don't think Nirvana could have grown much over 10 or 20 years. I can see STP jumping on the bandwagon, but coming out in 1992 it still seems a little early for that. It's not like they were Bush, which I do like Bush but total bandwagon. STP will always be a 50/50 discussion. Ok, now for the actual point which is Candlebox. Calling Smashing Pumpkins grunge is like calling The Cranberries grunge. An experiment with a song or two doesn't define the whole band. Candlebox came out in 1993. It seems too early, at least to me, to consider them post. They were touring clubs in areas that was the basis for the grunge sound while Nirvana and Pearl Jam were headlining arenas. I'd go lite grunge, but they are like an easier PJ. A very produced, yet dirty sounding album with great guitar leads. I mean Far Behind is about Andy Wood's death. They had the grunge themes and a lot of grit to much of their first album. This is a good convo. Keep the responses going as long as no one is going to be a douche about it. ( Xffactor ( talk) 06:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC))
You need to realize Pearl Jam is definitely grunge, but they're NOT the "grunge standard" if anything Green River and the other 5 Deep Six bands are the only grunge standards, as in all other grunge bands should sound like them. Pearl Jam does on their first 3 albums, Candlebox doesn't at all. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 17:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok...I fully realize Pearl Jam is grunge. I didn't say they weren't. All I said was that they had a different direction and that's why they make make the music they make today. ( Xffactor ( talk) 18:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC))
No I wasn't saying you didn't know Pearl Jam was grunge. What I meant was "You need realize that although Pearl Jam is definitely grunge that they are not the grunge standard." -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
They clearly are grunge (there are numerous sources backing this up). People are too picky about what get's called grunge these days. Most quote un quote "post-grunge" bands don't sound too different from Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Paw, Screaming Trees, Gruntruck, Stone Temple Pilots and any other "original" grunge band, compare Pearl Jam's "Alive" to Nickelback's "When We Stand Together", they sound exactly the same as each other and both have the same anthemic lyrical themes. As for bands like Green River, Nirvana and such, they're really more noise rock than they are grunge or anything. I call the big one bitey 04:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Also Green River is definitely grunge since they were the first band to be categorized as grunge EVER. Soundgarden is a good standard since they were the most successful grunge band that existed in the first wave of grunge so maybe think of grunge as something that sounds like those two bands. I'd personally say Candlebox sounds like neither. To me they sound like a sold out version of Pearl Jam and since Pearl Jam arrived really late to the grunge scene (1991, when most grunge bands had been established since the 80s) They are a terrible example of the "definition of grunge." I'd sooner argue that Pearl Jam isn't grunge than Candlebox is grunge, even though I do believe Pearl Jam is grunge. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 07:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Well the exact same thing can be said for Stone Temple Pilots, who are still considered major players in grunge by fans and the media. Grunge began as a sort of mix between sabbath, noise rock/punk and indie, but by the time Nevermind was released the definition had changed to hard alternative rock music. That's what i would call every grunge band popular during the genres golden years, many like Alice in Chains and STP had almost no punk influence whatsoever and no connection to underground indie music. Post-grunge is basically a continuation of that hard alternative rock sound, but people don't label these bands grunge because they haven't been around since the early 90s and the majority have come from places outside of the washington area. Candlebox emerged during grunge's "golden years", had that hard alternative rock sound and came directly from Seattle, so they deserve to be labeled grunge as much as Alice in Chains and Stone Temple Pilots do. I call the big one bitey 07:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't say I agree with that at all. Well I see grunge more as a hybrid genre of either alternative rock, punk, or metal that tends to be on the heavier side... With that said the vocal style also matters. Bands such as Green River, Mudhoney, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Hole, AND Stone Temple Pilots, all for the most part had with heavy distorted guitars, gritty vocals, and seemed to have a protesting like spirit in their lyrics (whether it be politics, getting over depression, or self expression.) To me Candlebox's guitars aren't very distorted despite being heavy, the lead singer's vocals aren't very gritty, their lyrics content tends to be of love more than anything else, and they sound alternative rock, but have no metal or punk influence heard (which is reminiscent of a pop version of a genre.) Clearly post-grunge is the "pop" version of grunge, right? That's how Candlebox comes off as so I feel they're post-grunge. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 09:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Well then by you're logic Nirvana (post-bleach) and Pearl Jam (ten era) are post-grunge, since they took the original sound and made it more accessible. Actually the music on Ten, Nevermind and Superunknown is about as pop as anything you'll hear on any post-grunge album. To say grunge tends to be on the heavier side of things is saying bands like Pearl Jam, Hole, Mono Men and Babes in Toyland are heavy, and to say ALL grunge bands have gritty vocals, angsty lyrics and distorted guitars implies alternative metal/nu metal bands like Tool, Helmet, Deftones and Korn are grunge. The only 2 influences that EVERY grunge band had were alternative rock (where the base sound comes from) and hard rock (where the heavy guitars come from), and Peal Jam and Stone Temple Pilots both were mainly influenced by alternative rock and hard rock. Candlebox (and Bush for that matter) also fall under that wing of grunge, the ones with not much metal or punk influence. I call the big one bitey 10:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Just because its more accessible doesn't mean its post-grunge. First of all STP are clearly metal influenced, specifically on Core and Purple, most people don't consider their other albums grunge anyway. Since I'm not too fond of Pearl Jam I couldn't really put up an argument of them because I don't know much of their origins, but from what I know of them they're pretty grungy... Finally, how could you say that Tool falls under this when they don't even have alternative rock roots. Imagine grunge as a heavy, angst driven, gritty vocalized form of alternative rock with EIHER punk or metal influences (not always both) and you'll see that Candlebox isn't really too heavy, sings about love etc. not much angst, has neither punk nor metal influences, and honestly the kicker: IT WAS INFLUENCED BY GRUNGE... not just influenced by one or two grunge bands, but influenced by the entire genre as a whole, which means they're emulating what grunge already is, possibly even trying to sound like grunge... As you may know most grunge bands tend to reject the label grunge, clearly Candlebox never really did that because grunge influenced them directly (not necessarily punk, metal, or even other forms of alternative rock.) And isn't that what post-grunge is? A poppy version of grunge that was influenced by grunge? Finally of a different note, you don't think Hole is heavy??? Have you heard anything from their first album... its like Love flipping out to really loud guitars and drums for a whole album. Also when it comes to Hole generally people believe their first two albums are grunge, and that Celebrity Skin (the first Hole album that isn't considered grunge) is pure pop-rock, on that album her vocals are not longer gritty, the guitar distortion is almost gone, and she still has angst, but its a lot less well grungy... Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 18:41, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
i think Sprinkler should be in the Grunge bands ouside seattle area beacause they were a Grunge band from Portland, Oregon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 22:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
um, i put them in and it says talk on the discussion board first but i already have? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 15:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree, Sprinkler is a Grunge band and should be added. im adding them. Megabar09 ( talk) 15:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Yet Malfunkshun is on the list? There were NOT prominent, they were just Andy Wood's first band. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 07:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Never heard until now. Seems like some ultra obscure amateur band which probably fails all notability guidelines. Just because some crumby obscure punk band from poland is said by some ip to be one of the first punk rock band's doesn't mean they are notable, nor does it mean they should be mentioned on the punk rock article, basically the same applies here. I call the big one bitey 20:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Finally, I can agree with you on something. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have not been able to find a reliable source that specifies them as grunge. There are, however, a lot of sources that talk about the genre label being slapped onto the band in an accusing manner, but this doesn't make them grunge. My understanding is that the DeLeos struggled with the "rip off" accusations, which obviously led to the change in their sound. So is Core grunge or not? I'd rather there were a consensus (as opposed to a vote) to whether the band should be considered grunge or not. In my opinion, the grunge genre would be more of an insult to STP's proven integrity as a unique band. If they could be considered grunge, it would only be for the first album, the sound being a minority compared to their future releases. In addition, Core doesn't have "apathetic or angst-filled lyrics" (as defined in the Wiki article for "grunge") but rather political or socially influenced lyrics. Finally, in the archives, someone stated that removing STP from the list would be considered a breach of WP:POV, but I actually think having STP listed is neither notable (the debate is notable, and the accusations are notable, but that "STP is Grunge" is not notable) or reliably accurate. –Kerαunoςcopia◁ galaxies 07:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Way to help resolve the issue SPORT what an ass-et to the project you are :)-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 02:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
I definitely think STP should be included. In a way they are like Pearl Jam. They started off as a grunge band and later just turned into a hard rock band. Candlebox I also think was a grunge band for their first album. Although not on Sub-Pop, they were in that Seattle scene for years. Their first album was only lacking more writing outward instead of inward. ( Xffactor ( talk) 00:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xffactor ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Hard rock/alternative rock/pop rock/post-grunge band, not grunge. Not nearly enough punk or metal (real metal like metallica not hard rock like led zep) influences to be tagged as grunge. I agree with sheeeeeeep, if STP are grunge than so are Candlebox. This appears to be a case of a few veteran editors/grunge aficionados liking a certain band (STP) and wanting them to be tagged as grunge, while not wanting another (Candlebox/Bush) which they don't like, to be tagged as such, in spite of what the sources have to say. I call the big one bitey 16:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Real metal? Led Zeppelin was called metal before Metallica existed. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple were the standards for heavy metal before the members of Metallica (a thrash metal band) even knew how to play instruments. Those 3 bands are metal in its purest form. When people say grunge is influenced by metal they mean Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple. Nirvana, STP, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains all draw heavily from these bands or ones similar. Yet again, Candlebox does not. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
All three of those bands you mentioned are also hard rock (D.P. and Led zep are both listed as hard rock on wikipedia and there are zillions of sources calling black sabbath hard rock). So technically STP are more influenced by hard rock/classic rock than they are metal, keeping in mind they're also largely influenced by even less heavy classic rock bands like the beatles, rolling stones etc. I assume it's the same situation with Candlebox. On a side note, does anyone actually known about any of Candlebox's influences? because that would be really helpful to this discussion right now. I call the big one bitey 19:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Sources say Candlebox's major influences are: http://www.mtv.com/artists/candlebox/related-artists/?filter=influencedBy
For STP: http://www.mtv.com/artists/stone-temple-pilots/related-artists/?filter=influencedBy
With the exception of 1 grunge band, STP seems to have mainly heavy metal and classic rock influences. Keep in mind Nirvana and Pearl Jam was also inspired by Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin. Soundgarden is also a first wave grunge band that sounded more "metal" on their earlier albums. This sound is non existant in grunge bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and STP all who have influenced Candlebox.
Face it Candlebox was inspired by grunge in the post-grungiest way possible. STP mainly was inspired by classic rock and heavy metal, which Nirvana and Pearl Jam were as well so it makes them no less grunge. Actually no 80s metal bands really influenced Nirvana or Pearl Jam and when it comes to them being influenced by "metal" they mean Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and oddly enough ACDC. The only 80s metal bands Soundgarden was influenced by was Metallica, but its well known that Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and surprisingly Neil Young were all bigger influences to their sound. It seems STP's influences mirror Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Soundgarden's very closely, while Candlebox was inspired mainly by Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, but shares few similar influences. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Candlebox weren't only influenced by grunge bands, since they emerged around the same time as bands like Nirvana, Alice in Chains Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. They were mainly influenced by classic rock (just like Soundgarden, STP and Pearl Jam) as well as metal (just like AIC and Soundgarden). If you don't believe they were influenced by metal than just look at their offcial bio http://www.candleboxrocks.com/bio/ it says
“ | “Believe in It” had its genesis in Klett’s Seattle home studio, as his mind wandered back to his formative years. “I was playing guitar one day and thinking about Black Sabbath when I came up with this riff with a heavy, Sabbath-y feel,” he recalls. | ” |
They may not have been influenced by punk at all, but Alice in Chains, STP and Pearl Jam (for the most part) weren't either. What I'm Saying is Candlebox are technically on the same boat as STP, AIC and PJ in terms of influences. I call the big one bitey 13:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
No but Alice in Chains wasn't influenced by another grunge band, nor was Soundgarden, Nirvana, or Pearl Jam. STP was, but it was only 1 (Soundgarden) and it was their earlier less grungy work. Candlebox? They were influenced by 5 grunge bands (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney), 2 of which (Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam) were commercially successful as soon as their first release came out. So you're telling me that a band influenced by a commercially successful grunge band can also be grunge and not post-grunge? Can you name another grunge band who had 5 commercial grunge bands as influences? Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Would you consider Alternative Metal to be derived from Grunge at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 01:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
No I would not since prominent older alt. metal bands Primus, Tool, and Faith No More had little to no link to grunge even if grunge bands such as Alice in Chains and Soundgarden are also considered alt. metal. It'd be easier to prove in reverse. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Like i said on the alternative metal talk page, both genres emerged around the same time [first grunge band U-men formed in 1981, first alt-metal band Faith No More formed in 1981, first grunge hit was released in 1991 ( nevermind), first alt metal hit was released in 1989 ( the real thing)], so it's nearly impossible for bands from both genres to have influenced each other. Although on the faith no more page it says nirvana were influenced by fnm or something, but i haven't read the source yet. The only alt metal bands that i can think of who were influenced by grunge are Tool and Helmet, who were both influenced by Melvins, although Melvins themselves are more alt metal than they are grunge. I call the big one bitey 16:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I just get confused sometimes when I see some bands are listed as both genres. Would you consider Alice In Chains' "Facelift" album to be an Alt-Metal album since it came out a year prior to 1991? 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 00:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
No, that album's really more like traditional heavy metal/hard rock with even a little glam metal, since Alice in Chains originally began as a glam metal/hard rock band. Alice in Chains weren't really grunge or alt metal until after that album. I call the big one bitey 00:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
99.248.120.62, You do understand that grunge existed before 1991 right? U-Men and Green River were first considered grunge bands in 1985 (Even if they had existed prior) so anything from 1985-today can be grunge (though generally it is believed grunge died in 1997 when Soundgarden broke up, which only added the decline of grunge caused by Pearl Jam's sound change and Kurt Cobain's suicide.) I believe Facelift is definitely grunge, but with clear metal/glam like influences. With that said Primus and Faith No More (2 of the first alt. metal bands) were not inspired by grunge even slightly. If anything alt. metal inspired some grunge acts, but this is barely true in reverse. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 02:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I do understand it existed before 1991, as Nirvana's Bleach album came out in 1989. I didn't think the first Grunge "hit" album would've came out in 1991. 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 01:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Nirvana didn't invent grunge... Bleach was not even close to being the first grunge album. Grunge was first established in 1985 with bands lie The U-Men, Green River, Malfunkshun, and Soundgarden. Nirvana made it commercial in 1991 (well not really Pearl Jam's Ten was a hit before Nevermind came out) Anyone who thinks Nirvana is the basis for grunge is just incorrect. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
There have been several sections such as "Grunge in the 21st century", "Grunge in later years" that keep being removed and any post-90s information lumped into the "decline" section. But how is grunge still "declining" today? It was discussed above why Soundgarden's revival needs to be included and there is no way that grunge was still in the decline when they re-formed in 2010, thirteen years after 1997 when they disestablished in the 90s.-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 01:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I already had a debate on Soundgarden still being grunge on the King Animal talk page. The result was "yes" so if you have any doubt I guess refer to that conversation. I believe its under the headline of "grunge?" Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 18:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
With this said I think:
I think these are agreeable ideas, but you can tweak them if you like. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Tarc i have no idea what you just said, but you'll find the overwhelming majority of sources state that Candlebox and Bush are grunge, not post-grunge. To say that those bands are post-grunge (despite the sources obviously leaning towards grunge) is you're opinion, which as you mentioned is irrelevant in an encyclopedia. I call the big one bitey 21:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
There aren't just "some" sources calling Candlebox and Bush grunge, there are a LOT of sources calling them that, infact its probably the genre with the most sources for them, as opposed to the pumpkins who are mainly categorized as alternative rock, only occasionally being called grunge. If a large number of sources (not just one or two lone ones) agree on something, than you should just go with what those sources say. I call the big one bitey 21:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Well when most people say The Smashing Pumpkins are grunge they only mean Gish and Siamese Dream, which the two songs you named aren't on either. I still don't consider those 2 albums grunge either, and few sources do as well. Other than that I agree with DrumstickJuggler's points completely. If you really want to, we could re-examine citations and do the whole grunge listing again to get a new consensus of which bands are grunge based on citations mixed with discretion. For instance 7 Year Bitch's article doesn't list it as grunge and neither do most of the citations I've found about them. Most citations consider them both punk and riot grrrl, but not grunge. For all I know there could be other bands like this on the list who really aren't backed up by citations. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Died (Alice in Chains song) is a song that was recorded in 1998 and released in 1999 (famouly the last song performed by Layne Staley before he...well, you know). It is recongized as grunge and was one of the new songs on Music Bank. Music Bank has been certified gold in the United States so it's fair to consider it a substantial release. I think it could be good for the article to adress that there was grunge in the late 90s too, just not as much. Bleed Together by Soundgarden was a 1997 song that is recognized as grunge, so at least two of the "big four" released grunge in the late 90s. The song was a minor charter, but a charter nonetheless and ties in with the A-sides compiltation, also released in 1997, that reached number six in the New Zealand albums chart. My point is that it's just incorrect to make it sound like grunge didn't exist in the late 90s when I've given a few good examples of its existence.-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 00:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Well I don't believe grunge ever died, it just took a break, but some people insist it died in 1997 when Soundgarden broke up. Some even think it died when Cobain killed himself in 1994 as if Kurt IS grunge (which is ridiculous.) I wouldn't say a few singles really call for grunge being alive, but it was on vacation I guess... I do believe King Animal, Mudhoney's 2000s albums, and L7's 1997 and 1999 albums are grunge though. So that's why it remains alive. Pearl Jam, STP, Hole, and Alice in Chains changed their sound too much to be grunge on post-1995 releases in my opinion. Nirvana clearly ended... Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
You can't pinpoint an exact moment a genre dies, infact it's debatable whether grunge actually did die or not, but to me Alice in Chains self titled 1995 record was the last pure grunge album. Down on the Upside was really more on the alternative rock side of things since the guitars on that album weren't particularly heavy or "grungy" sounding. Down on the Upside is as grunge as Candlebox's self titled and Bush's Sixteen Stone, which to me were sort of half grunge half post-grunge albums. It's debatable whether "Died" is grunge. That song sounds more like something from one of Jerry Cantrell's solo albums, which are mainly considered alternative metal and post-grunge/hard rock, not grunge. The same can be said for the stuff on Black Gives Way to Blue as well. I call the big one bitey 19:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm bringing this here before editing the article because this page has a history of editors removing sections of material for various reasons and at least if it's discussed on the talk page, there is a dicussion to refer back to. The article for the Boggy Depot album calls the 1998 release as a grunge album. Two songs appeared in the top ten of the Mainstream Rock Tracks and the album itself reached the top 40 in both the United States and Canada. Degradation Trip is also put down as grunge, the album also charted in the top 40, and the Anger Rising song was also a top ten Mainstream Rock track. Even though he is a component of Alice In Chains his solo career appears to have contributed to the genre but with releases after 1997 (the year that many mark as the decline of grunge). I'm not entirely certain how we approach this. Despite his success as a solo performer, he also can't merely be listed under "Prominent bands" because he alone isn't really a band and even if we changed the title of that list to "Prominent music acts" we would still have an issue because people would then say "if Jerry Cantrell can be listed as a music act, what about all the Kurt Cobains and Layne Staleys that drummed, sang or guitared in some way on the scene?" and by extension "which singers, drummers and guitarists are worthy of being listed and which ones are not?". Per the articles calling his solo career releases grunge, and the reasonable sucess of these works, I think his work is worthy of being included somehow, but it's fair to have it included in a way that satisfies a consensus. So what do people think?-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 21:07, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Its seems he should be listed since sources categorize his work as grunge before any other sub-genre. Since you have proven his solo career had also spawned successful, well charting singles: I say just add him to the list. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
List of grunge supergroups was an article that was boldly converted into a redirect to this article in October 2012, the redirect have now been nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 April 18#List of grunge supergroups. Your comments in the discussion would be most welcome. Thryduulf ( talk) 13:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
The Meat Puppets have already been classified as grunge on their page, so I think it is only appropriate to add them here. -- TheeCakee ( talk) 22:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Honestly I'd sooner change their page to say their not grunge than add them to the grunge list. People need to stop labeling Nirvana's influences as grunge because they aren't. Meat Puppets are classified as a lot of things --punk, cowpunk, alternative rock, neo-psychedelia-- and grunge is not one of them. For future reference: The Vaselines, David Bowie, and Lead Belly aren't grunge either (Sorry for the humor...) Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
The Meat Puppets were not grunge. Tarc ( talk) 19:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Just because they are classed as grunge on their page doesn't mean they should be mentioned here. Infact if you check the editing history of The Meat Puppets you'll see grunge was just added by some random genre warrior ip address without consensus or sources, so obviously that means little. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 23:23, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to add Seattle band
Dickless to Prominent Acts section.
Reasons:
J_Tom_Moon_79 ( talk) 22:41, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I couldn't wait, I added
Dickless. Again, before removing them, please listen to
Saddle Tramp.
Also, check out the book references in their article if you're still doubtful.
J_Tom_Moon_79 (
talk)
10:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
It says "prominent grunge acts" not "all grunge acts." Dickless doesn't even have a full album, just singles and a compilation. They received no fame... I'm removing them. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
I think there's an argument for at least a mention of David Bowie's band Tin Machine in this article. I've been doing some research for the band for their article and now have several articles that talk about how the band "explored alternative and grunge before the styles were even widely known to exist." (as one example) Please see Tin Machine#Band legacy for the list of references and statements. Of course there's an additional connection, with Bowie's influence on Kurt Cobain already being noted. Tin Machine were formed in 1988, released their first album in 1989 and disbanded in 1992. Thoughts? I didn't want to go change a featured article without some discussion first. If there's no immediate dissent, I'll figure out how to add something to the article without disruption. 87Fan ( talk) 20:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The sounds of Tin Machine is reminiscent of Alternative rock, but not even close to grunge. I think when Cobain was influenced by Bowie it was his older albums (70s era.) I know Bowie is a genre chameleon, but grunge is something he never even came close to, not even with Tin Machine. Also you may want to consider that Bowie being an influence to 1 grunge band means nothing. Bands or artists who have influenced many grunge bands would qualify as notible for mention, like Aerosmith influencing Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and plenty of other grunge bands. Maybe consider adding something to the Alternative rock article instead. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The page has limited pictures; why is one of them some British dude who casually mentioned he doesn't like the genre in an interview? Shouldn't the pics be of grunge musicians, or at least producers or record label owners directly related to the scene? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.164.74 ( talk) 16:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Should this be mentioned somewhere? recently Soundgarden's Ben Shepherd trashed grunge and said Soundgarden were never a grunge band www.alternativenation.net/?p=25233 Billy Corgan has also said "I think we've finally proved that we're not a grunge band, thankfully."
Here's a quote from Mike McCready from an Entertainment Weekly feature: ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Is grunge still a bad word? [Laughs] Yeah. But it's used so much. So I don't have the reaction I used to have to it. I used to be like, "NO. WE ARE A ROCK & ROLL BAND. WE PLAY ROCK. WE PLAY HEAVY ROCK. WE'RE A HARD-ROCK BAND." I call the big one bitey ( talk) 05:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
All,
I have looked through the archives, but have not found a mention of this. The lead states "It emerged in the mid-1980's, particularly in the state of Washington, and its capital Seattle." The way this is written makes it sound as though the capital of Washington is Seattle, not Olympia. Can we rework this to avoid the confusion? I do not know how to do so. Svyatoslav ( talk) 02:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Superunknown (Soundgarden's true commercial breakthrough) and Vitalogy (the album that completed Pearl Jam's trilogy of albums that sold 5 million+ copies) are missing from the article?? Not to mention the highly notable unplugged albums from Nirvana and Alice in Chains. Grunge did not die in 1994 with Kurt Cobain's death. Grunge actually continued to be one of the most commercially viable forms of rock music through 1995 or 1996, I would say. I think this is further confirmed by the success of acts such as Live, Bush, Candlebox, and STP in the mid 90s. Alice in Chains' eponymous album (1995) is another glaring omission, as is STP's Purple (1994). After Soundgarden's Down on the Upside (1996) was really when the genre faded out I would say, being supplanted in the alternative rock world by more pop-sounding modern rock and the harder-edged nu-metal genre. I can go ahead and add this gap in coverage, but this is a featured article and I don't want to mess with it too much before getting some feedback from other editors. Thanks. Abog ( talk) 21:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
The section of this article talking about early influences seems to completely gloss over what should be a prominent feature of that section... Neil Young was clearly a big influence on the genre, it mentions Rust Never Sleeps, but completely ignores Freedom(1989) which had a few songs on it that sound almost identical to 90s grunge... Young's clothing style pre-grunge was almost perfectly reproduced by grunge bands(flannel) LeCabbage ( talk) 09:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
The article says that hardcore punk is an influence on grunge. Should it not be softcore punk?-- Oddeivind ( talk) 19:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hardcore punk bands like Black Flag were the first to integrate metal sounds into the punk genre as a whole. Also softcore punk isn't a thing, and the hardcore scene was what allowed grunge to develop. Hardcore bands were some of the only ones who'd come through town (most larger bands wouldn't due to Seattle's geographic location), but the geography factored in as well in that the cities isolation allowed it to break from the more prototypical hardcore ideology that was favored nationally (i.e. drugs weren't taboo. The proximity to the border certainly didn't help that one either, but whatever).
Point is, I don't think that this edit is necessary, nor is it accurate. Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 07:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
The post-grunge band Bush doesn't belong in the mainstream success section, let's face it, Bush wasn't grunge, they were post-grunge. Being post-grunge means being a grunge band in a radio-friendly way, Bush was radio-friendly and lacked the underground roots of grunge. Bush was never included in the mainstream success of this section until a Bush fan decided to include them here, if Bush was grunge that means that bands like Live and Collective Soul were definitely grunge which it isn't the case, those bands were post-grunge. Gavin Rossdale clean voice and his good looks for females doesn't make them grunge which many grunge bands didn't care about their looks. Bush's music isn't as raw as the other grunge bands, they were imitators and a radio-friendly sound. Bush also caused the demised of grunge, they affected it with their radio-friendly post-grunge sound. Bush has a lot of things to do with grunge but were they grunge, no. The same thing can be said about bands like Nickelback and Creed, they have a lot to do with grunge but are they grunge, no. They are post-grunge bands and the same thing can be said about Bush. ( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 20:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC) )
Nope, they were not having mainstream success in early of 1994, that is wrong. Sixteen Stone was released in December of 1994 and it got it's biggest peak in 1996, by that point grunge was dead and got replace by what it created, post-grunge. Bush is definitely post-grunge and not original grunge. Grunge was original and were not imitators, the only grunge band I could call a imitator is probably Stone Temple Pilots but even the lead vocalist had a different voice for some songs, his voice sounds different from Creep to Plush. Bush in the other hand was radio-friendly and Gavin had the same voice for most of the band songs. Sixteen Stone was released in 1994 but it was released during the ending of 1994 and it got it's peak during 1996. Bush was popular again in 1997 with Razorblade Suitcase which got it's biggest success in that year, by that point the original grunge was already dead. Bands like Bush, Candlebox, Collective Soul, Better Than Ezra, Live, Our Lady Peace and others were the first wave of post-grunge bands. If Bush was grunge, Nickelback is definitely grunge too but that is not the case. Bush is post-grunge. I was watching the hype movie about grunge and there was no Bush include on there, they are post-grunge.( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 18:27, 12 November 2016 (UTC) )
Thank you for your comment but Bush still wasn't having mainstream success in 1994, their mainstream success came in 1995 and at their highest peak in 1996. I like both genres, grunge and post-grunge are great genres to me and I have a lot of grunge-post-grunge albums but to me, like you said, Bush was one of the earliest post-grunge bands. If Bush are mention in the mainstream success section of grunge, why are they saying that they are grunge when they were post-grunge and not original grunge? If they are mention in the mainstream success section, at least write on how they were post-grunge and were using the sounds of Nirvana or something like that instead of making them original to the grunge genre. Can I somewhat change it? ( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 22:35, 12 November 2016 (UTC) )
@ Strangeguy91: I'm sorry we need more consensus on this. Maybe do a RFC on the Bush page? Karst ( talk) 00:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Nirvana had cultural impact? Who knew? I thought they were relatively obscure, and with relatively few hits. Anyway, the problem with the discussion above is that it does not mention any sources for the analysis of which band is grunge and which is not. Please remember not to do original research. Dimadick ( talk) 09:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Bush sound like Nirvana. They do NOT sound like Creed and Nickelback. If Bush were from Seattle and got big in 1992 then everyone would call them grunge. If Sixteen Stone was by Nirvana then everybody would call it grunge. If In Utero was by Bush then everybody would call it post-grunge. If Nirvana were NOT from Seattle and was from the UK and released their first album in 1994/1995 then everybody would call them post-grunge. Statik N ( talk) 22:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi, An editor changed a number of the subheadings to all capital letters at the start of each word. WP:MOS, the style guide for Wikipedia, says that all subheadings should be "sentence case", which means that only the first letter of the subheading should be capitalized ( WP:MOS#Capitalization). Thus a typical subheading would read "History of the region". The exception is when one of the subsequent words is a proper noun or place name (e.g., "Colonial America" or "Grunge in Seattle"). I am changing the subheadings to comply with WP:MOS, as this is the "house style" for all Wikipedia articles. Thanks OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 15:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Is this hoax independently notable from the main article? And is it already sufficiently covered in the main article? The hoax article depends almost exclusively on sources primary to the incident as it is (the NYT report, the Baffler reply). Unless it's going to be sourced to secondary source coverage—that is, about the hoax at a distance, not involved in the hoax itself—it should be merged or redirected. czar 00:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be a distraction from the content of the central article, were the content to be merged. Grunge speak is a minor incident, when considering that the page is seeking to cover an entire genre of music. However, it was notable enough as a historical/sociological and pop-cultural event that it should remain on wikipedia.
The film Hype covers the incident in depth, regarding a secondary source. Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 07:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't really see how it's necessary, regardless. There's enough detail to the story that would be lost in the merger that I would say don't do it. Also, to reinforce my original point, I think that it would distract from the content regarding the actual music. Ultimately I don't think it's hurting anybody, but also it doesn't really matter all that much. -- Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 03:16, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
While I think recent expansion has brought many improvements to this article, there is I think a serious problem with the overuse of quotations. Some sections almost can't go a sentence without quoting source material, often making the text clunky and the reading experience repetitive and tiresome. For example, this random example from the opening section on the etymology of grunge ...
"When grunge first developed, music journalists called it 'pain rock', due to the genre's focus on 'impossibly' and its strong influence from '[Black] Sabbath's late-60s negativity.'"
... could become ...
"With its themes of apathy and negativity, early grunge was referred to by the press as 'pain rock'."
This I think is also a more accurate summary of the source, which does not actually say that grunge was called "pain rock" due to a Black Sabbath influence, or a focus on "impossibly", which is meant to read "impossibility" (still doesn't make a whole lot of sense divorced from context). Will be interested to see what other editors have to say about this. - HappyWaldo ( talk) 00:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi all, An editor has deleted the list of grunge bands from outside the US twice now. This editor is User:2804:7f7:e18a:e658:2067:fa01:9f:3aaa. The editor does not provide a rationale for deleting these other bands from outside the US. At least regarding the Australian bands, the source is The Guardian, which is considered a reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I have reverted this deletion once, but I do not want to do so again, because I don't want to get into an edit war with 2804:7f7:e18a:e658:2067:fa01:9f:3aaa. If he or she has concerns about whether the Australian and British bands qualify as grunge, or whether the sources are reliable, I am happy to discuss here. But I think deleting without explanation in the talk page summary is not the best approach. Thanks : ) OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Well i just think that Bush's old stuff was Grunge and if Hole was classed as Grunge so should Bush. They were more Grunge then Hole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 03:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah i totally agree with you. Im sick of people putting bush in a post grunge genre, they were around before kurt died. So if more people argue this point, we could hopefully convince them to keep bush on the out of the seattle are grunge bands. --
JBrocksthehouse (
talk)
21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
They generally utilized a more commercial-friendly, less "dirty" production for the most part and even had a cleaned up "hearthrob" at the center of their line-up (seriously? How anti-grunge is that?). Their first record was released well after 1992. They are POST-GRUNGE, and you're just going to have to accept it. And by the way, they are not the only band who formed/recorded before Cobain's death to be classified under the post-grunge category (Live and Candlebox are other notable examples). 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 09:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree totally with the above. If being commercial, radio-friendly etc makes you non-grunge, then please could you enlighten me as to what Nirvana's "Nevermind" classes as? And as for grunge musicians not being allowed to be good-looking, no one seems to have told the thousands of girls and young women who seemed to think Cobain was plenty bone-able. Anyway, as for Bush, I have added their name to the list, and inserted a reference to a respectable source describing them as grunge. So, person above the person above me, it would appear YOU are the one who is "just going to have to accept it". Peace xxx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.127.118 ( talk) 13:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Theburning25 ( talk) 01:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure as to why Bush isn't included either, surely there are multiple reliable sources citing them as such. Hoponpop69 ( talk) 20:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Were R.E.M., the rock band from Georgia, a grunge band? They were once described this way on Stars in their Eyes. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 09:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone should add Soul Asylum to the list of Prominent bands Outside the Seattle area. They where defiantly a part of that grunge scene and had allot of success in the 90's after there triple-platinum album "Grave Dancers Union" in 1992 and winning a Grammy Award for the song "Runaway Train" in 1994. The band also played the Bill Clinton inauguration and where doing the grunge thing long before Babes in Toyland in Minneapolis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.17.55.141 ( talk) 23:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
how come underground bands like pet salad and garden blue aint mentioned underground bands like them keep grunge alive —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
im going to add a revival section if everyone lets me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justing101 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
well they do have they're own websites and spirit of metal has references to many new grunge bands and a page on last fm about the subject Justing101 ( talk) 04:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC) justing101
right im adding it now Justing101 ( talk) 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)justing101
I was just thinking that "Hard rock" would fit the influences spot for grunge. Bands like Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith and stuff had an impact. Just thought I'd consolt it here. (This is CheezerRox4502, just forgot my password) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.142.112 ( talk) 23:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Hard rock should be added to the spot of influences for grunge. This way, musicians like The Stooges and Neil Young ("The Godfather of Grunge") would be noticed. -- Rivet138 ( talk) 18:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Rivet138
I agree with the whole hard rock being an influence. like listen to the riffs on the songs breed from nirvana. thats a pretty damn heavy riff for grunge. And some of the riffs from alice and chains and pearl jam. -- JBrocksthehouse ( talk) 21:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I too agree with that. The Who is also an influence that many grunge bands have covered some of their songs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.145.200.106 ( talk) 13:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I sure would think that Hard Rock is a more accurate genre influence than Heavy Metal. Still, if Metal is going to be left in then Hard Rock shouldn't need to be included as well. 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 09:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
I think we should change Heavy Metal to Hard Rock.-- 79.115.179.48 ( talk) 08:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
We shouldn't. It was influenced by Heavy Metal, not Hard Rock. Don't forget that Hard Rock isn't just a harder classic rock. Not every heavy form of rock is related to it.-- 79.115.178.97 ( talk) 16:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Hard Rock is a better term than Heavy Metal. If one were to listen to the song structures of grunge bands such as Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, and Pearl Jam, one can recognize the influence of Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, and Jimi Hendricks (respectively), all of which are hard rock groups, not metal groups. However, it does seem that hard rock has become absorbed by heavy metal (for the most part), and most people cannot hear the difference anymore, so I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.74.80 ( talk) 05:38, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
This is not a forum for discussing grunge in general, it is only for article improvement. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is ridiculous none of those bands are grunge. I personally think of grunge as the Seattle Sound. Someone will bring up here that they all sound different but it's the Seattle Sound i.e. based on geographical location. It even says it within the article here - Arm used grunge as a descriptive term rather than a genre term, but it eventually came to describe the punk/metal hybrid sound of the Seattle music scene.[4] So what is the basis for those bands being there? That they have a punk/metal sound? I can think of lots more bands from the period who could fit into that section, Hum must be grunge by that logic, sure i suppose Helmet is grunge too. When i go to remove the bands it says that Silverchair, Smashing Pumpkins etc. cannot be included... Why not!? What makes them so different from Stone Temple Pilots or Hole. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It even says here regarding STP: "Anti Grunge From a 1993 interview, "Although STP takes pains to distance itself from the grunge groups (Weiland jokingly labels himself a "new wave Renaissance guy"), the singer also admits his band is riding the grunge wave." Just because he is riding the grunge wave doesn't mean the band is grunge. By the logic of this article any band who came out in the early 90s and has a metal/punk sound is grunge and that is simply not correct. Also if these bands were so major in the genre why are they not mentioned in the history? It also says in this article "Grunge evolved from the local punk rock scene (in Seattle) - How could those bands be influenced by the Seattle local punk rock scene if they are not from Seattle. Can we use a bit of common sense here...-- Alowishus321 ( talk) 22:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC) The problem here is that no-one seems to remember what grunge means. Nirvana were pretty much grunge in the beginning but not so much later on, Pearl Jam were never grunge, Soundgarden were never grunge, Alice In Chains weren't grunge but had some grungey tracks. The Seattle scene is not the same thing as grunge, the two terms were confused by the media; journalists asked a few talking heads and random kids from Seattle what the sound that was going around Seattle was called and they answered "grunge", which was true. Unfortunately, people took this to mean that all bands from the Seattle area were grunge bands when this was not in fact the case. Everyone who knows the history of grunge knows that, but Wikipedia seems to have missed it. The bands that actually played grunge were not as successful as the so-called big four grunge bands (unless you include Nirvana, who got big after ditching the grungier elements of their sound) because grunge is a not a very commercial sound, therefore most people have never heard real grunge, and so the confusion continues. As Wikipedia operates under the pretense of being an impartial encyclopedia it would be nice if Wikipedia helped to put this grunge myth to rest, but sadly this will never happen as most so-called reliable sources do not know what grunge means. Note that Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden don't sound very similar at all, and the only genre that you can fit the three bands into comfortably is rock. Alice In Chains were really outsiders who were influenced by the Seattle scene (including grunge, to an extent), they were regarded as phonies by many inside the Seattle scene at the time because they were originally a glam rock band who appeared to change their sound when some alternative rock bands from Seattle got big, though I personally think they were a great band, better than Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Though essentially a pop-rock band, Pearl Jam were accepted because they had roots going right back to Green River. Soundgarden were basically a metal band with psychedelic influences until later on in their career, where they became more eclectic. The fact that none of the so-called big four grunge bands actually played grunge for the most part does not seem to matter any more, that is why there is so much confusion about what is or isn't grunge. Bleach by Nirvana is the only album by any of those four bands that could be described as a grunge album, though it is not entirely grunge. I hope that clears it up for you, though most likely I have confused you even more! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.121.206 ( talk) 14:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
Well, a more accurate definition of grunge would somewhat improve the article, in my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.121.206 ( talk) 02:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I come back a year later to find that some idiot has pushed my post into "discussing information in the manner of a forum". I was informing on inaccuracies in the article and backing it up with information. Isn't that the whole point of this site?! The fact that someone replied to my post in that matter has nothing to do with me. The person who replied to me is entitled to their opinion but i backed up my claims with information from other articles on THIS SITE which directly contradicts what is being said in this one. If you want to claim that what i am saying is some gibberish then by all means continue thinking that. I was just attempting to improve this article. Bands like Smashing Pumpkins are not, have never been and never will be grunge. Like i rightly pointed out if this article is going to continue on the route it is going basically every alt metal/rock band from the early 90s is going to be appearing on the list of bands. It is totally ludicrous and yet people are still piling on discussions below this suggesting "band x oh they must be grunge". This is truly one of the contradicting pages on the whole site. -- Alowishus321 ( talk) 00:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
i think you should add it as a derivative form of grunge or maybe as a stylistic origin because Aic, Soundgarden and the melvins are considered the godfather's of alternative metal and are two of the earliest bands to be labeled alternative metal. i'm not sure though because it says both genre's began around the same time in the mid 80s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.220.148 ( talk) 09:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
This article has too many words and reflects an African-American point of view. It should be reduced in size. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.93.31 ( talk) 23:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I think nu-metal should be in the derivative genres section because nu-metal bands definately did derive their sound from grunge music. If not in the derivatives section, grunge's influence on nu-metal should at least be mentioned on here.
This article is not neutral in terms of the early Grunge movement giving Nirvana with "smell like teen spirit" and Pear Jam full credit for starting it or being the most popular bands of the era. Definetly not accurate! Before Nirvana came into the scene Alice in Chains with the album "Facelift" was already making noise in MTV and the whole world.
NU-metal is a stupid sub genre, i think its a load of crap and i hate some of the bands that get called nu-metal, like distrubed for example, im trying to convince people that distrubed are progressive metal. -- JBrocksthehouse ( talk) 21:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Um no, Nu-Metal has no real reason to be mentioned here. It crosses over with post-grunge music quite often, but pretty much is it's own offshoot of Alternative Metal inspired largely by Faith No More and RHCP (non-grunge bands), and has little in common with the original Grunge bands. As far as I know the "Heavy Metal" article covers that particular topic, and it's fine there. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC) i'm removing nu metal from derivative forms since grunge was just a minor influence to nu metal (and it's unsourced) — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey ( talk • contribs) 15:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm a little blown away these guys didn't make the Outside Seattle grunge band list...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.95.162.44 ( talk) 19:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
What do you mean "rvt largely unsource and otherwise problematic errors?" that's the statement you used to removed what I had wrote about Tales of Terror in the Grunge article, I don't understand it, so can you explain me please?. I thought the two references I wrote were enough reliable sources. DustyCoffin ( talk) 16:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
someone should make an article for grunge metal, as that would be a good of separating the heavier grunge bands from the more punk influenced ones, and it could also be used to describe the 80s metal bands that experimented with grunge in the 90s (motley crue, anthrax etc.) as well as post-grunge bands like nickelback and creed — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Please do not compare post grunge to grunge. Post grunge is an insult to grunge's existence and does not deserve to be lumped together. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
DustyCoffin ( talk · contribs) is dead set on including Tales of Terror as some forerunner of grunge, and are not afraid of edit-warring to keep that information in, sourced to this article. Here's the problem:
If anyone can make a decent argument as to why this should be kept, with all the problems cited above (in addition to the problem that no one else has heard of this band), I'd love to hear it. In the meantime, DustyCoffin has been reported for edit-warring. Drmies ( talk) 21:26, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Who said I'm 'in the in the advocacy game'? And what I think I meant is that he said an encyclopedia reflects what exists in the outside world, well Tales' influence is something real, what haven't you read what I wrote, I'm not making that up, it's not as if it is my band and I'm spamming; I submitted it here 'cause I saw this info wasn't here, every time somebody submits something here is 'cause they want people to know it, right? Contribute to the 'encyclopedia.' So every single time somebody tries to submit new info then you people will impede it jealousy? DustyCoffin ( talk) 14:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Recently Soundgarden released the new album King Animal and some of the editors keep telling me that because it's not from the 80s or 90s that it can't be grunge even if it's sourced as such while also sounding like grunge and being by a band known as a "grunge band." The same problem occurs with Alice in Chain's album Black Gives Way to Blue. Personally I think both albums are clearly grunge and I'd like some help in making sure they are labeled so because editors on both pages keep removing grunge from their genre sections. They're arguments are only that "grunge is a time period", but I thought grunge was just a sub genre and the grunge article seems to agree with me. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
The way I see it: if it's a genre it has no expiration date and King Animal and Black Gives Way to Blue's articles should be labeled as grunge. If it's only a time period don't allow grunge as a genre for any album article, not even Nevermind, Ten, or Badmotorfinger. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 02:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Grunge isn't dead. The whole section about Alice in Chains needs revision as the band has reformed (without deceased Lane Staley) and put out a widely praised album, "Black Gives Way to Blue." I think the album is selling as well as can be expected in a file swapping world. I leave any changes for the wiki gurus to evaluate and make.
OCT 30, 2009 Bobroberts248 ( talk) 14:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Or the fact that Soundgarden has a new album and another successful single. STP hasn't really been grunge since Purple though, they went through drastic sound changes after that just like Hole didn't after Live Through This. But, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, and Pearl Jam are all still active and have albums in the 2000s. People need to remember there's more grunge bands than Nirvana. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
None of the bands are making full-fledged albums that sound exactly like 'grunge' sound you know. If you watch the making of 'King Animal' videos on youtube Chris Cornell clearly states that he doesn't really want to make more full-fledged grunge or heavy metal albums. He wants to make something different and experimental with some traces of the band's trademark sound. On the other hand Alice in Chains' comeback was more like a full-fledged metal band dressed up in all black leather if you see the promotionals of Black gives Way to Blue. And the album sounded like something in between traditional melodic heavy metal with riffs and heavy bits reminiscent of bands like Candlemass, Type o Negative here and there and the album has won Metal Hammer best album of the year as well. And as Mrmoustache14 said STP hasn't really been grunge since Purple, more of southern rock and generic hard rock. Pearl Jam is making generic alternative rock records that sound nothing like 'grunge' to me. Their last 'grunge' record according to me is Vitalogy. Mudhoney is somewhere between garage rock, art rock and punk rock now. Ravenlord5150 ( talk) 07:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Most grunge bands were NOT uncomfortable with their popularity, only Nirvana was... actually that's not even true JUST Kurt Cobain. I'm removing this. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Are there any new Grunge bands out nowadays? At least underground laced ones? The post-grunge sounds more watered down than the raw, visceral real sound of Grunge. Why isn't there a list of new underground Grunge bands? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.245.51 ( talk) 03:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
There are a lot of new grunge bands; unfortunately Wikipedia's guidelines make it very hard to actually mention them without them getting deleted, as it's hard to hit critical mass and get mentioned in a newspaper. 98.216.65.237 ( talk) 01:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, which guidelines exactly? If there's recent underground bands why not put a sub-section on the main page for a list of new, underground Grunge bands? To signify that despite the post-grunge, mainstream phase you still have a continuous and low-level scene going on with the genre. Grunge is a speciic type of genre, it's not a historical precursor like Protopunk or Post-Punk which were only titled in specific timeframes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentrazemine ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I've tried that before, but apparently wikipedia is extremely strict in that it doesn't let you put anything unless it had sources, and the proper ones at that, and they don't allow facebook or myspace pages, so it's really hard to get any sort of lists or band mentions, but I have a facebook page called "Spread the word of good newer grunge bands" if you want to check that out, with several lists in notes, and there have been over 400 bands posted. Some notable ones that everyone seems to love include Violent Soho, Senium, Nukeateen, Noiseheads, Dinosaur Pile-Up, Japanese Voyeurs, Cable35, Thee Now Sound, Viole(n)t Bullfrog, Valentiine, Inedia, Dirty Bliss, The Heroine Whores, and Dave's Pawn Shop. 96.229.229.77 ( talk) 09:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
In case you're wondering Japanese Voyeurs already has a wikipedia page. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 11:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
They have their own article. They were formed in the 90s in Tacoma, Washington. Their debut album was in 1991 and they're considered punk rock and grunge. They also were on the Sub Pop label. Their version of "Go Your Own Way" by Fleetwood Mac was in the famous cult classic Clerks and have worked and toured along side Mudhoney. A song of theirs "Kid Candy" was known enough to be featured on Beavis and Butthead. Why aren't they on this list? They're surely more important of a grunge band and more successful than Hammerbox, Gruntruck, and Blood Circus (though those 3 definitely deserve to be on the list) so does Seaweed. The guy who linked "Seaweed" linked the plant article isntead of the band article which is titled "Seaweed (band)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJcoIEWB1C0 <-If you'd like evidence of their sound here's "Kid Candy" Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
i don't know how to add citations, but cobain cites raping a slave as one of his 50 biggest influences and a google search will pull up quotes by buzz osborne talking about swans. in fact, if you cross-reference through wiki itself, you'll see swans mentioned on the melvins page, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.135 ( talk) 17:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
interviewre:Yeah! Because it's like - you listen to that and it's just absolutely - there's no precedent for it at all! Is there? I mean, it's like you invented an entirely new - not grunge, but an entirely new genre. It's just such a bizarre form of music you're playing on there.
buzz osborne:Yeah! That's a weird one.
i: How did you come up with that sound? What was going on in that point in time that would result in you creating that kind of music? bo: Well, at the time, we were listening to a lot of Swans, Gang of Four's "Solid Gold" album which has remained a favorite, umm.Public Image Limited's "Flowers of Romance" - that was another big positive influence for us. Uhh. Meat Puppets II. Not as much Sabbath as people would imagine at that point; we were actually much more into Black Flag than Black Sabbath at that period in time. We liked them, but..
i: Yeah, but none of that music sounds at all like Gluey Porch Treatments. I mean, for the first five minutes of that record, you can't even tell what speed it's supposed to be on! bo: Yeah, that first song's pretty slow. But you have to think of that album in terms of the place and time it was created. It was recorded at the end of 1986, which was the height of -
i: Oh! Hardcore punk. bo: SKINHEAD hardcore. And we didn't like it at all. We didn't like their whole attitude - towards us especially! So we wanted to do something that made us totally opposite to what they were doing. Which were the kinds of things that made us happy! Bands like Venom. We were really into Venom and Flipper and the Swans. Stuff like that. And some Sabbath too, I guess. Though I think I was listening to the Dio stuff at that time. Probably Heaven and Hell more than any of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.135 ( talk) 06:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
There should be a section on Australian bands and their influence on Grunge. It seems odd to quote Mark Arm citing Australia as the birthplace of Grunge, and then not go into further detail. So here's a bunch of facts and quotes I've collected in just a short while:
124.169.174.92 ( talk) 21:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
It is important that the information about Soundgarden's recent history is mentioned and not removed because their grunge releases and success are relevant to the exposure of grunge in recent years. For example, the grunge album Telephantasm recieved the first ever platinum certification in the United States based on video games sales and their 2012 studio album reached the top five in at least three countries and number six in the World Chart. This is important to the article because it demonstrates that grunge as a genre has had some mainstream success in recent years. It would be better therefore, to keep this in the article somehow instead of pretending that grunge just didn't exist after 1997. It isn't just Soundgarden either. Mudhoney have also been releasing grunge studio albums in the 21st century -- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 19:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but i really think hard rock should be included as a stylistic origin. What genre do the so called "big 4" grunge bands (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, AIC) all fall under? - hard rock, and all 4 have mentioned hard rock/classic rock bands as influences. Having heavy metal but not hard rock is sort of misleading, since not every grunge band (Pearl Jam and Hole for example) is influenced by metal, while basically every grunge band has been inspired by hard rock. I'm confident there are sources out there confirming that hard rock is an origin as well. I call the big one bitey 22:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Well Alice in Chains really early stuff (glam metal days to Facelift) is both hard rock and metal, same applies for every Soundgarden album excluding "Down on the Upside" which is more of an alternative rock album. And the two metal band's that mainly influenced grunge (Black Sabbath and Led Zep) are both considered hard rock/classic rock bands. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were never really directly influenced by any "pure" metal bands like Iron Maiden, Slayer, etc. I call the big one bitey 02:10, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
But that's only Alice in Chains, who along with Melvins, are the most extreme example of metal influence in grunge. Both are better described as alternative metal or traditional heavy metal anyway. The regular grunge band is mainly influenced by punk, (e.g sonic youth) indie (e.g pixies) and hard rock (eg. Led Zep, Black Sabbath). Also adding hard rock to the infobox would be a good way to differentiate with alternative metal, since that would help imply that grunge is overall softer and less metal leaning than alt metal, because after looking at both articles, the average reader with little music knowledge could assume both genres are the exact same thing. I call the big one bitey 02:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
They came up in the Seattle scene as early as 1990. They might not have the depressive outlook as Nirvana but honestly neither did Pearl Jam. Candlebox had the sound and vocals of a grunge band. I'll admit they are on the lighter side of grunge but they came out way too early to be considered post-grunge. They should be listed under Seattle bands. ( Xffactor ( talk) 03:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC))
They have been considered grunge. Perhaps not "original grunge" but they have been referred too has lite grunge or even post-grunge, which I think they came out too soon to be post-grunge. I'm not saying they are just because of being from Seattle, but let's face it grunge seems to require more street cred than rap. My point was simply that Candlebox formed from everything going on around them. Their debut does have a pop quality but there are a lot of grunge qualities as well. Some people will insist that none of the bands who actually made it were grunge. That Tad and Mother Love Bone are the only real grunge bands. Kurt Cobain used to trash Pearl Jam all the time saying that they were fake and were stealing alternative kids money. I guess it's up to ones interpretation since the STP argument is still going on. When you break down the big 5, PJ, STP, Nirvana, AIC, and Soundgarden, they have similar qualities but sound completely different. ( Xffactor ( talk) 18:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC))
Well Soundgarden is completely different from the other big 4 since they're from the original grunge scene (Green River, U-Men, Soundgarden, Melvins, Malfunkshun, Skin Yard) You know Deep Six an early grunge release dating back to1986, so it's safe to say Soundgarden is clearly grunge. Alice in Chains hate the term, but almost everyone cites them as grunge and they were close to Mother Love Bone and Soundgarden members in both friendship and music style. Nirvana also fits into the scene based on style and although I love them, Stone Temple Pilots kind of just "jumped onto the grunge band wagon" after it was popular, but still definitely made grunge. Pearl Jam did have members who were in grunge bands (Green River, Mother Love Bone), if you look at their work after Vitalogy, they actually started to be considered post-grunge and I can agree with Cobain in saying they tried a little too hard when it came to being commercial, a very un grunge like way. Though Pearl Jam is borderline grunge, it's still grunge and will be almost always cited as such. Candlebox? They're almost always cited as post-grunge, and even though some references call them grunge, they're probably the same articles that called The Smashing Pumpkins and Jane's Addictions grunge (which are both obviously just alternative rock.) -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh I totally agree with Soundgarden, myself. They never really get the credit they deserve for how much work they put in before grunge became "a thing." They were the one actual original that made it. I've AIC rejected the grunge sound and Jerry said that they never even dressed the part until their label suggested they do. The thing with Pearl Jam is they did the ultimate to reject the mainstream back then which was to reject MTV after "Jeremy." That's what always bothered me about Kurt's views on them. Nirvana, although Kurt said he hated it, fully embraced the position they were in. They were all over MTV right up until his death. PJ's sound was cleaner than Nirvana and definitely went more towards just hard rock after 10. I don't think they tried too hard, I just think they had a different idea on where they wanted to go with their music. I honestly don't think Nirvana could have grown much over 10 or 20 years. I can see STP jumping on the bandwagon, but coming out in 1992 it still seems a little early for that. It's not like they were Bush, which I do like Bush but total bandwagon. STP will always be a 50/50 discussion. Ok, now for the actual point which is Candlebox. Calling Smashing Pumpkins grunge is like calling The Cranberries grunge. An experiment with a song or two doesn't define the whole band. Candlebox came out in 1993. It seems too early, at least to me, to consider them post. They were touring clubs in areas that was the basis for the grunge sound while Nirvana and Pearl Jam were headlining arenas. I'd go lite grunge, but they are like an easier PJ. A very produced, yet dirty sounding album with great guitar leads. I mean Far Behind is about Andy Wood's death. They had the grunge themes and a lot of grit to much of their first album. This is a good convo. Keep the responses going as long as no one is going to be a douche about it. ( Xffactor ( talk) 06:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC))
You need to realize Pearl Jam is definitely grunge, but they're NOT the "grunge standard" if anything Green River and the other 5 Deep Six bands are the only grunge standards, as in all other grunge bands should sound like them. Pearl Jam does on their first 3 albums, Candlebox doesn't at all. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 17:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok...I fully realize Pearl Jam is grunge. I didn't say they weren't. All I said was that they had a different direction and that's why they make make the music they make today. ( Xffactor ( talk) 18:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC))
No I wasn't saying you didn't know Pearl Jam was grunge. What I meant was "You need realize that although Pearl Jam is definitely grunge that they are not the grunge standard." -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
They clearly are grunge (there are numerous sources backing this up). People are too picky about what get's called grunge these days. Most quote un quote "post-grunge" bands don't sound too different from Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Paw, Screaming Trees, Gruntruck, Stone Temple Pilots and any other "original" grunge band, compare Pearl Jam's "Alive" to Nickelback's "When We Stand Together", they sound exactly the same as each other and both have the same anthemic lyrical themes. As for bands like Green River, Nirvana and such, they're really more noise rock than they are grunge or anything. I call the big one bitey 04:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Also Green River is definitely grunge since they were the first band to be categorized as grunge EVER. Soundgarden is a good standard since they were the most successful grunge band that existed in the first wave of grunge so maybe think of grunge as something that sounds like those two bands. I'd personally say Candlebox sounds like neither. To me they sound like a sold out version of Pearl Jam and since Pearl Jam arrived really late to the grunge scene (1991, when most grunge bands had been established since the 80s) They are a terrible example of the "definition of grunge." I'd sooner argue that Pearl Jam isn't grunge than Candlebox is grunge, even though I do believe Pearl Jam is grunge. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 07:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Well the exact same thing can be said for Stone Temple Pilots, who are still considered major players in grunge by fans and the media. Grunge began as a sort of mix between sabbath, noise rock/punk and indie, but by the time Nevermind was released the definition had changed to hard alternative rock music. That's what i would call every grunge band popular during the genres golden years, many like Alice in Chains and STP had almost no punk influence whatsoever and no connection to underground indie music. Post-grunge is basically a continuation of that hard alternative rock sound, but people don't label these bands grunge because they haven't been around since the early 90s and the majority have come from places outside of the washington area. Candlebox emerged during grunge's "golden years", had that hard alternative rock sound and came directly from Seattle, so they deserve to be labeled grunge as much as Alice in Chains and Stone Temple Pilots do. I call the big one bitey 07:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't say I agree with that at all. Well I see grunge more as a hybrid genre of either alternative rock, punk, or metal that tends to be on the heavier side... With that said the vocal style also matters. Bands such as Green River, Mudhoney, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Hole, AND Stone Temple Pilots, all for the most part had with heavy distorted guitars, gritty vocals, and seemed to have a protesting like spirit in their lyrics (whether it be politics, getting over depression, or self expression.) To me Candlebox's guitars aren't very distorted despite being heavy, the lead singer's vocals aren't very gritty, their lyrics content tends to be of love more than anything else, and they sound alternative rock, but have no metal or punk influence heard (which is reminiscent of a pop version of a genre.) Clearly post-grunge is the "pop" version of grunge, right? That's how Candlebox comes off as so I feel they're post-grunge. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 09:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Well then by you're logic Nirvana (post-bleach) and Pearl Jam (ten era) are post-grunge, since they took the original sound and made it more accessible. Actually the music on Ten, Nevermind and Superunknown is about as pop as anything you'll hear on any post-grunge album. To say grunge tends to be on the heavier side of things is saying bands like Pearl Jam, Hole, Mono Men and Babes in Toyland are heavy, and to say ALL grunge bands have gritty vocals, angsty lyrics and distorted guitars implies alternative metal/nu metal bands like Tool, Helmet, Deftones and Korn are grunge. The only 2 influences that EVERY grunge band had were alternative rock (where the base sound comes from) and hard rock (where the heavy guitars come from), and Peal Jam and Stone Temple Pilots both were mainly influenced by alternative rock and hard rock. Candlebox (and Bush for that matter) also fall under that wing of grunge, the ones with not much metal or punk influence. I call the big one bitey 10:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Just because its more accessible doesn't mean its post-grunge. First of all STP are clearly metal influenced, specifically on Core and Purple, most people don't consider their other albums grunge anyway. Since I'm not too fond of Pearl Jam I couldn't really put up an argument of them because I don't know much of their origins, but from what I know of them they're pretty grungy... Finally, how could you say that Tool falls under this when they don't even have alternative rock roots. Imagine grunge as a heavy, angst driven, gritty vocalized form of alternative rock with EIHER punk or metal influences (not always both) and you'll see that Candlebox isn't really too heavy, sings about love etc. not much angst, has neither punk nor metal influences, and honestly the kicker: IT WAS INFLUENCED BY GRUNGE... not just influenced by one or two grunge bands, but influenced by the entire genre as a whole, which means they're emulating what grunge already is, possibly even trying to sound like grunge... As you may know most grunge bands tend to reject the label grunge, clearly Candlebox never really did that because grunge influenced them directly (not necessarily punk, metal, or even other forms of alternative rock.) And isn't that what post-grunge is? A poppy version of grunge that was influenced by grunge? Finally of a different note, you don't think Hole is heavy??? Have you heard anything from their first album... its like Love flipping out to really loud guitars and drums for a whole album. Also when it comes to Hole generally people believe their first two albums are grunge, and that Celebrity Skin (the first Hole album that isn't considered grunge) is pure pop-rock, on that album her vocals are not longer gritty, the guitar distortion is almost gone, and she still has angst, but its a lot less well grungy... Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 18:41, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
i think Sprinkler should be in the Grunge bands ouside seattle area beacause they were a Grunge band from Portland, Oregon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 22:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
um, i put them in and it says talk on the discussion board first but i already have? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.254.143 ( talk) 15:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree, Sprinkler is a Grunge band and should be added. im adding them. Megabar09 ( talk) 15:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Yet Malfunkshun is on the list? There were NOT prominent, they were just Andy Wood's first band. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 07:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Never heard until now. Seems like some ultra obscure amateur band which probably fails all notability guidelines. Just because some crumby obscure punk band from poland is said by some ip to be one of the first punk rock band's doesn't mean they are notable, nor does it mean they should be mentioned on the punk rock article, basically the same applies here. I call the big one bitey 20:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Finally, I can agree with you on something. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have not been able to find a reliable source that specifies them as grunge. There are, however, a lot of sources that talk about the genre label being slapped onto the band in an accusing manner, but this doesn't make them grunge. My understanding is that the DeLeos struggled with the "rip off" accusations, which obviously led to the change in their sound. So is Core grunge or not? I'd rather there were a consensus (as opposed to a vote) to whether the band should be considered grunge or not. In my opinion, the grunge genre would be more of an insult to STP's proven integrity as a unique band. If they could be considered grunge, it would only be for the first album, the sound being a minority compared to their future releases. In addition, Core doesn't have "apathetic or angst-filled lyrics" (as defined in the Wiki article for "grunge") but rather political or socially influenced lyrics. Finally, in the archives, someone stated that removing STP from the list would be considered a breach of WP:POV, but I actually think having STP listed is neither notable (the debate is notable, and the accusations are notable, but that "STP is Grunge" is not notable) or reliably accurate. –Kerαunoςcopia◁ galaxies 07:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Way to help resolve the issue SPORT what an ass-et to the project you are :)-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 02:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
I definitely think STP should be included. In a way they are like Pearl Jam. They started off as a grunge band and later just turned into a hard rock band. Candlebox I also think was a grunge band for their first album. Although not on Sub-Pop, they were in that Seattle scene for years. Their first album was only lacking more writing outward instead of inward. ( Xffactor ( talk) 00:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xffactor ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Hard rock/alternative rock/pop rock/post-grunge band, not grunge. Not nearly enough punk or metal (real metal like metallica not hard rock like led zep) influences to be tagged as grunge. I agree with sheeeeeeep, if STP are grunge than so are Candlebox. This appears to be a case of a few veteran editors/grunge aficionados liking a certain band (STP) and wanting them to be tagged as grunge, while not wanting another (Candlebox/Bush) which they don't like, to be tagged as such, in spite of what the sources have to say. I call the big one bitey 16:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Real metal? Led Zeppelin was called metal before Metallica existed. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple were the standards for heavy metal before the members of Metallica (a thrash metal band) even knew how to play instruments. Those 3 bands are metal in its purest form. When people say grunge is influenced by metal they mean Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple. Nirvana, STP, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains all draw heavily from these bands or ones similar. Yet again, Candlebox does not. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
All three of those bands you mentioned are also hard rock (D.P. and Led zep are both listed as hard rock on wikipedia and there are zillions of sources calling black sabbath hard rock). So technically STP are more influenced by hard rock/classic rock than they are metal, keeping in mind they're also largely influenced by even less heavy classic rock bands like the beatles, rolling stones etc. I assume it's the same situation with Candlebox. On a side note, does anyone actually known about any of Candlebox's influences? because that would be really helpful to this discussion right now. I call the big one bitey 19:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Sources say Candlebox's major influences are: http://www.mtv.com/artists/candlebox/related-artists/?filter=influencedBy
For STP: http://www.mtv.com/artists/stone-temple-pilots/related-artists/?filter=influencedBy
With the exception of 1 grunge band, STP seems to have mainly heavy metal and classic rock influences. Keep in mind Nirvana and Pearl Jam was also inspired by Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin. Soundgarden is also a first wave grunge band that sounded more "metal" on their earlier albums. This sound is non existant in grunge bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and STP all who have influenced Candlebox.
Face it Candlebox was inspired by grunge in the post-grungiest way possible. STP mainly was inspired by classic rock and heavy metal, which Nirvana and Pearl Jam were as well so it makes them no less grunge. Actually no 80s metal bands really influenced Nirvana or Pearl Jam and when it comes to them being influenced by "metal" they mean Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and oddly enough ACDC. The only 80s metal bands Soundgarden was influenced by was Metallica, but its well known that Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and surprisingly Neil Young were all bigger influences to their sound. It seems STP's influences mirror Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Soundgarden's very closely, while Candlebox was inspired mainly by Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, but shares few similar influences. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Candlebox weren't only influenced by grunge bands, since they emerged around the same time as bands like Nirvana, Alice in Chains Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. They were mainly influenced by classic rock (just like Soundgarden, STP and Pearl Jam) as well as metal (just like AIC and Soundgarden). If you don't believe they were influenced by metal than just look at their offcial bio http://www.candleboxrocks.com/bio/ it says
“ | “Believe in It” had its genesis in Klett’s Seattle home studio, as his mind wandered back to his formative years. “I was playing guitar one day and thinking about Black Sabbath when I came up with this riff with a heavy, Sabbath-y feel,” he recalls. | ” |
They may not have been influenced by punk at all, but Alice in Chains, STP and Pearl Jam (for the most part) weren't either. What I'm Saying is Candlebox are technically on the same boat as STP, AIC and PJ in terms of influences. I call the big one bitey 13:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
No but Alice in Chains wasn't influenced by another grunge band, nor was Soundgarden, Nirvana, or Pearl Jam. STP was, but it was only 1 (Soundgarden) and it was their earlier less grungy work. Candlebox? They were influenced by 5 grunge bands (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney), 2 of which (Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam) were commercially successful as soon as their first release came out. So you're telling me that a band influenced by a commercially successful grunge band can also be grunge and not post-grunge? Can you name another grunge band who had 5 commercial grunge bands as influences? Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Would you consider Alternative Metal to be derived from Grunge at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 01:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
No I would not since prominent older alt. metal bands Primus, Tool, and Faith No More had little to no link to grunge even if grunge bands such as Alice in Chains and Soundgarden are also considered alt. metal. It'd be easier to prove in reverse. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Like i said on the alternative metal talk page, both genres emerged around the same time [first grunge band U-men formed in 1981, first alt-metal band Faith No More formed in 1981, first grunge hit was released in 1991 ( nevermind), first alt metal hit was released in 1989 ( the real thing)], so it's nearly impossible for bands from both genres to have influenced each other. Although on the faith no more page it says nirvana were influenced by fnm or something, but i haven't read the source yet. The only alt metal bands that i can think of who were influenced by grunge are Tool and Helmet, who were both influenced by Melvins, although Melvins themselves are more alt metal than they are grunge. I call the big one bitey 16:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I just get confused sometimes when I see some bands are listed as both genres. Would you consider Alice In Chains' "Facelift" album to be an Alt-Metal album since it came out a year prior to 1991? 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 00:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
No, that album's really more like traditional heavy metal/hard rock with even a little glam metal, since Alice in Chains originally began as a glam metal/hard rock band. Alice in Chains weren't really grunge or alt metal until after that album. I call the big one bitey 00:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
99.248.120.62, You do understand that grunge existed before 1991 right? U-Men and Green River were first considered grunge bands in 1985 (Even if they had existed prior) so anything from 1985-today can be grunge (though generally it is believed grunge died in 1997 when Soundgarden broke up, which only added the decline of grunge caused by Pearl Jam's sound change and Kurt Cobain's suicide.) I believe Facelift is definitely grunge, but with clear metal/glam like influences. With that said Primus and Faith No More (2 of the first alt. metal bands) were not inspired by grunge even slightly. If anything alt. metal inspired some grunge acts, but this is barely true in reverse. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 02:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I do understand it existed before 1991, as Nirvana's Bleach album came out in 1989. I didn't think the first Grunge "hit" album would've came out in 1991. 99.248.120.62 ( talk) 01:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Nirvana didn't invent grunge... Bleach was not even close to being the first grunge album. Grunge was first established in 1985 with bands lie The U-Men, Green River, Malfunkshun, and Soundgarden. Nirvana made it commercial in 1991 (well not really Pearl Jam's Ten was a hit before Nevermind came out) Anyone who thinks Nirvana is the basis for grunge is just incorrect. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
There have been several sections such as "Grunge in the 21st century", "Grunge in later years" that keep being removed and any post-90s information lumped into the "decline" section. But how is grunge still "declining" today? It was discussed above why Soundgarden's revival needs to be included and there is no way that grunge was still in the decline when they re-formed in 2010, thirteen years after 1997 when they disestablished in the 90s.-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 01:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I already had a debate on Soundgarden still being grunge on the King Animal talk page. The result was "yes" so if you have any doubt I guess refer to that conversation. I believe its under the headline of "grunge?" Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 18:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
With this said I think:
I think these are agreeable ideas, but you can tweak them if you like. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Tarc i have no idea what you just said, but you'll find the overwhelming majority of sources state that Candlebox and Bush are grunge, not post-grunge. To say that those bands are post-grunge (despite the sources obviously leaning towards grunge) is you're opinion, which as you mentioned is irrelevant in an encyclopedia. I call the big one bitey 21:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
There aren't just "some" sources calling Candlebox and Bush grunge, there are a LOT of sources calling them that, infact its probably the genre with the most sources for them, as opposed to the pumpkins who are mainly categorized as alternative rock, only occasionally being called grunge. If a large number of sources (not just one or two lone ones) agree on something, than you should just go with what those sources say. I call the big one bitey 21:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Well when most people say The Smashing Pumpkins are grunge they only mean Gish and Siamese Dream, which the two songs you named aren't on either. I still don't consider those 2 albums grunge either, and few sources do as well. Other than that I agree with DrumstickJuggler's points completely. If you really want to, we could re-examine citations and do the whole grunge listing again to get a new consensus of which bands are grunge based on citations mixed with discretion. For instance 7 Year Bitch's article doesn't list it as grunge and neither do most of the citations I've found about them. Most citations consider them both punk and riot grrrl, but not grunge. For all I know there could be other bands like this on the list who really aren't backed up by citations. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Died (Alice in Chains song) is a song that was recorded in 1998 and released in 1999 (famouly the last song performed by Layne Staley before he...well, you know). It is recongized as grunge and was one of the new songs on Music Bank. Music Bank has been certified gold in the United States so it's fair to consider it a substantial release. I think it could be good for the article to adress that there was grunge in the late 90s too, just not as much. Bleed Together by Soundgarden was a 1997 song that is recognized as grunge, so at least two of the "big four" released grunge in the late 90s. The song was a minor charter, but a charter nonetheless and ties in with the A-sides compiltation, also released in 1997, that reached number six in the New Zealand albums chart. My point is that it's just incorrect to make it sound like grunge didn't exist in the late 90s when I've given a few good examples of its existence.-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 00:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Well I don't believe grunge ever died, it just took a break, but some people insist it died in 1997 when Soundgarden broke up. Some even think it died when Cobain killed himself in 1994 as if Kurt IS grunge (which is ridiculous.) I wouldn't say a few singles really call for grunge being alive, but it was on vacation I guess... I do believe King Animal, Mudhoney's 2000s albums, and L7's 1997 and 1999 albums are grunge though. So that's why it remains alive. Pearl Jam, STP, Hole, and Alice in Chains changed their sound too much to be grunge on post-1995 releases in my opinion. Nirvana clearly ended... Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 01:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
You can't pinpoint an exact moment a genre dies, infact it's debatable whether grunge actually did die or not, but to me Alice in Chains self titled 1995 record was the last pure grunge album. Down on the Upside was really more on the alternative rock side of things since the guitars on that album weren't particularly heavy or "grungy" sounding. Down on the Upside is as grunge as Candlebox's self titled and Bush's Sixteen Stone, which to me were sort of half grunge half post-grunge albums. It's debatable whether "Died" is grunge. That song sounds more like something from one of Jerry Cantrell's solo albums, which are mainly considered alternative metal and post-grunge/hard rock, not grunge. The same can be said for the stuff on Black Gives Way to Blue as well. I call the big one bitey 19:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm bringing this here before editing the article because this page has a history of editors removing sections of material for various reasons and at least if it's discussed on the talk page, there is a dicussion to refer back to. The article for the Boggy Depot album calls the 1998 release as a grunge album. Two songs appeared in the top ten of the Mainstream Rock Tracks and the album itself reached the top 40 in both the United States and Canada. Degradation Trip is also put down as grunge, the album also charted in the top 40, and the Anger Rising song was also a top ten Mainstream Rock track. Even though he is a component of Alice In Chains his solo career appears to have contributed to the genre but with releases after 1997 (the year that many mark as the decline of grunge). I'm not entirely certain how we approach this. Despite his success as a solo performer, he also can't merely be listed under "Prominent bands" because he alone isn't really a band and even if we changed the title of that list to "Prominent music acts" we would still have an issue because people would then say "if Jerry Cantrell can be listed as a music act, what about all the Kurt Cobains and Layne Staleys that drummed, sang or guitared in some way on the scene?" and by extension "which singers, drummers and guitarists are worthy of being listed and which ones are not?". Per the articles calling his solo career releases grunge, and the reasonable sucess of these works, I think his work is worthy of being included somehow, but it's fair to have it included in a way that satisfies a consensus. So what do people think?-- DrumstickJuggler ( talk) 21:07, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Its seems he should be listed since sources categorize his work as grunge before any other sub-genre. Since you have proven his solo career had also spawned successful, well charting singles: I say just add him to the list. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 23:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
List of grunge supergroups was an article that was boldly converted into a redirect to this article in October 2012, the redirect have now been nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 April 18#List of grunge supergroups. Your comments in the discussion would be most welcome. Thryduulf ( talk) 13:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
The Meat Puppets have already been classified as grunge on their page, so I think it is only appropriate to add them here. -- TheeCakee ( talk) 22:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Honestly I'd sooner change their page to say their not grunge than add them to the grunge list. People need to stop labeling Nirvana's influences as grunge because they aren't. Meat Puppets are classified as a lot of things --punk, cowpunk, alternative rock, neo-psychedelia-- and grunge is not one of them. For future reference: The Vaselines, David Bowie, and Lead Belly aren't grunge either (Sorry for the humor...) Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 19:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
The Meat Puppets were not grunge. Tarc ( talk) 19:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Just because they are classed as grunge on their page doesn't mean they should be mentioned here. Infact if you check the editing history of The Meat Puppets you'll see grunge was just added by some random genre warrior ip address without consensus or sources, so obviously that means little. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 23:23, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to add Seattle band
Dickless to Prominent Acts section.
Reasons:
J_Tom_Moon_79 ( talk) 22:41, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I couldn't wait, I added
Dickless. Again, before removing them, please listen to
Saddle Tramp.
Also, check out the book references in their article if you're still doubtful.
J_Tom_Moon_79 (
talk)
10:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
It says "prominent grunge acts" not "all grunge acts." Dickless doesn't even have a full album, just singles and a compilation. They received no fame... I'm removing them. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
I think there's an argument for at least a mention of David Bowie's band Tin Machine in this article. I've been doing some research for the band for their article and now have several articles that talk about how the band "explored alternative and grunge before the styles were even widely known to exist." (as one example) Please see Tin Machine#Band legacy for the list of references and statements. Of course there's an additional connection, with Bowie's influence on Kurt Cobain already being noted. Tin Machine were formed in 1988, released their first album in 1989 and disbanded in 1992. Thoughts? I didn't want to go change a featured article without some discussion first. If there's no immediate dissent, I'll figure out how to add something to the article without disruption. 87Fan ( talk) 20:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The sounds of Tin Machine is reminiscent of Alternative rock, but not even close to grunge. I think when Cobain was influenced by Bowie it was his older albums (70s era.) I know Bowie is a genre chameleon, but grunge is something he never even came close to, not even with Tin Machine. Also you may want to consider that Bowie being an influence to 1 grunge band means nothing. Bands or artists who have influenced many grunge bands would qualify as notible for mention, like Aerosmith influencing Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and plenty of other grunge bands. Maybe consider adding something to the Alternative rock article instead. Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 21:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The page has limited pictures; why is one of them some British dude who casually mentioned he doesn't like the genre in an interview? Shouldn't the pics be of grunge musicians, or at least producers or record label owners directly related to the scene? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.164.74 ( talk) 16:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Should this be mentioned somewhere? recently Soundgarden's Ben Shepherd trashed grunge and said Soundgarden were never a grunge band www.alternativenation.net/?p=25233 Billy Corgan has also said "I think we've finally proved that we're not a grunge band, thankfully."
Here's a quote from Mike McCready from an Entertainment Weekly feature: ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Is grunge still a bad word? [Laughs] Yeah. But it's used so much. So I don't have the reaction I used to have to it. I used to be like, "NO. WE ARE A ROCK & ROLL BAND. WE PLAY ROCK. WE PLAY HEAVY ROCK. WE'RE A HARD-ROCK BAND." I call the big one bitey ( talk) 05:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
All,
I have looked through the archives, but have not found a mention of this. The lead states "It emerged in the mid-1980's, particularly in the state of Washington, and its capital Seattle." The way this is written makes it sound as though the capital of Washington is Seattle, not Olympia. Can we rework this to avoid the confusion? I do not know how to do so. Svyatoslav ( talk) 02:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Superunknown (Soundgarden's true commercial breakthrough) and Vitalogy (the album that completed Pearl Jam's trilogy of albums that sold 5 million+ copies) are missing from the article?? Not to mention the highly notable unplugged albums from Nirvana and Alice in Chains. Grunge did not die in 1994 with Kurt Cobain's death. Grunge actually continued to be one of the most commercially viable forms of rock music through 1995 or 1996, I would say. I think this is further confirmed by the success of acts such as Live, Bush, Candlebox, and STP in the mid 90s. Alice in Chains' eponymous album (1995) is another glaring omission, as is STP's Purple (1994). After Soundgarden's Down on the Upside (1996) was really when the genre faded out I would say, being supplanted in the alternative rock world by more pop-sounding modern rock and the harder-edged nu-metal genre. I can go ahead and add this gap in coverage, but this is a featured article and I don't want to mess with it too much before getting some feedback from other editors. Thanks. Abog ( talk) 21:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
The section of this article talking about early influences seems to completely gloss over what should be a prominent feature of that section... Neil Young was clearly a big influence on the genre, it mentions Rust Never Sleeps, but completely ignores Freedom(1989) which had a few songs on it that sound almost identical to 90s grunge... Young's clothing style pre-grunge was almost perfectly reproduced by grunge bands(flannel) LeCabbage ( talk) 09:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
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The article says that hardcore punk is an influence on grunge. Should it not be softcore punk?-- Oddeivind ( talk) 19:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hardcore punk bands like Black Flag were the first to integrate metal sounds into the punk genre as a whole. Also softcore punk isn't a thing, and the hardcore scene was what allowed grunge to develop. Hardcore bands were some of the only ones who'd come through town (most larger bands wouldn't due to Seattle's geographic location), but the geography factored in as well in that the cities isolation allowed it to break from the more prototypical hardcore ideology that was favored nationally (i.e. drugs weren't taboo. The proximity to the border certainly didn't help that one either, but whatever).
Point is, I don't think that this edit is necessary, nor is it accurate. Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 07:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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The post-grunge band Bush doesn't belong in the mainstream success section, let's face it, Bush wasn't grunge, they were post-grunge. Being post-grunge means being a grunge band in a radio-friendly way, Bush was radio-friendly and lacked the underground roots of grunge. Bush was never included in the mainstream success of this section until a Bush fan decided to include them here, if Bush was grunge that means that bands like Live and Collective Soul were definitely grunge which it isn't the case, those bands were post-grunge. Gavin Rossdale clean voice and his good looks for females doesn't make them grunge which many grunge bands didn't care about their looks. Bush's music isn't as raw as the other grunge bands, they were imitators and a radio-friendly sound. Bush also caused the demised of grunge, they affected it with their radio-friendly post-grunge sound. Bush has a lot of things to do with grunge but were they grunge, no. The same thing can be said about bands like Nickelback and Creed, they have a lot to do with grunge but are they grunge, no. They are post-grunge bands and the same thing can be said about Bush. ( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 20:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC) )
Nope, they were not having mainstream success in early of 1994, that is wrong. Sixteen Stone was released in December of 1994 and it got it's biggest peak in 1996, by that point grunge was dead and got replace by what it created, post-grunge. Bush is definitely post-grunge and not original grunge. Grunge was original and were not imitators, the only grunge band I could call a imitator is probably Stone Temple Pilots but even the lead vocalist had a different voice for some songs, his voice sounds different from Creep to Plush. Bush in the other hand was radio-friendly and Gavin had the same voice for most of the band songs. Sixteen Stone was released in 1994 but it was released during the ending of 1994 and it got it's peak during 1996. Bush was popular again in 1997 with Razorblade Suitcase which got it's biggest success in that year, by that point the original grunge was already dead. Bands like Bush, Candlebox, Collective Soul, Better Than Ezra, Live, Our Lady Peace and others were the first wave of post-grunge bands. If Bush was grunge, Nickelback is definitely grunge too but that is not the case. Bush is post-grunge. I was watching the hype movie about grunge and there was no Bush include on there, they are post-grunge.( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 18:27, 12 November 2016 (UTC) )
Thank you for your comment but Bush still wasn't having mainstream success in 1994, their mainstream success came in 1995 and at their highest peak in 1996. I like both genres, grunge and post-grunge are great genres to me and I have a lot of grunge-post-grunge albums but to me, like you said, Bush was one of the earliest post-grunge bands. If Bush are mention in the mainstream success section of grunge, why are they saying that they are grunge when they were post-grunge and not original grunge? If they are mention in the mainstream success section, at least write on how they were post-grunge and were using the sounds of Nirvana or something like that instead of making them original to the grunge genre. Can I somewhat change it? ( Strangeguy91 ( talk) 22:35, 12 November 2016 (UTC) )
@ Strangeguy91: I'm sorry we need more consensus on this. Maybe do a RFC on the Bush page? Karst ( talk) 00:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Nirvana had cultural impact? Who knew? I thought they were relatively obscure, and with relatively few hits. Anyway, the problem with the discussion above is that it does not mention any sources for the analysis of which band is grunge and which is not. Please remember not to do original research. Dimadick ( talk) 09:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Bush sound like Nirvana. They do NOT sound like Creed and Nickelback. If Bush were from Seattle and got big in 1992 then everyone would call them grunge. If Sixteen Stone was by Nirvana then everybody would call it grunge. If In Utero was by Bush then everybody would call it post-grunge. If Nirvana were NOT from Seattle and was from the UK and released their first album in 1994/1995 then everybody would call them post-grunge. Statik N ( talk) 22:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi, An editor changed a number of the subheadings to all capital letters at the start of each word. WP:MOS, the style guide for Wikipedia, says that all subheadings should be "sentence case", which means that only the first letter of the subheading should be capitalized ( WP:MOS#Capitalization). Thus a typical subheading would read "History of the region". The exception is when one of the subsequent words is a proper noun or place name (e.g., "Colonial America" or "Grunge in Seattle"). I am changing the subheadings to comply with WP:MOS, as this is the "house style" for all Wikipedia articles. Thanks OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 15:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Is this hoax independently notable from the main article? And is it already sufficiently covered in the main article? The hoax article depends almost exclusively on sources primary to the incident as it is (the NYT report, the Baffler reply). Unless it's going to be sourced to secondary source coverage—that is, about the hoax at a distance, not involved in the hoax itself—it should be merged or redirected. czar 00:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be a distraction from the content of the central article, were the content to be merged. Grunge speak is a minor incident, when considering that the page is seeking to cover an entire genre of music. However, it was notable enough as a historical/sociological and pop-cultural event that it should remain on wikipedia.
The film Hype covers the incident in depth, regarding a secondary source. Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 07:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't really see how it's necessary, regardless. There's enough detail to the story that would be lost in the merger that I would say don't do it. Also, to reinforce my original point, I think that it would distract from the content regarding the actual music. Ultimately I don't think it's hurting anybody, but also it doesn't really matter all that much. -- Theabsurdreigns ( talk) 03:16, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
While I think recent expansion has brought many improvements to this article, there is I think a serious problem with the overuse of quotations. Some sections almost can't go a sentence without quoting source material, often making the text clunky and the reading experience repetitive and tiresome. For example, this random example from the opening section on the etymology of grunge ...
"When grunge first developed, music journalists called it 'pain rock', due to the genre's focus on 'impossibly' and its strong influence from '[Black] Sabbath's late-60s negativity.'"
... could become ...
"With its themes of apathy and negativity, early grunge was referred to by the press as 'pain rock'."
This I think is also a more accurate summary of the source, which does not actually say that grunge was called "pain rock" due to a Black Sabbath influence, or a focus on "impossibly", which is meant to read "impossibility" (still doesn't make a whole lot of sense divorced from context). Will be interested to see what other editors have to say about this. - HappyWaldo ( talk) 00:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi all, An editor has deleted the list of grunge bands from outside the US twice now. This editor is User:2804:7f7:e18a:e658:2067:fa01:9f:3aaa. The editor does not provide a rationale for deleting these other bands from outside the US. At least regarding the Australian bands, the source is The Guardian, which is considered a reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. I have reverted this deletion once, but I do not want to do so again, because I don't want to get into an edit war with 2804:7f7:e18a:e658:2067:fa01:9f:3aaa. If he or she has concerns about whether the Australian and British bands qualify as grunge, or whether the sources are reliable, I am happy to discuss here. But I think deleting without explanation in the talk page summary is not the best approach. Thanks : ) OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)