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So, ground attack aircraft includes all "light" aircraft dedicated to taking out land-based targets...?
Those all count, right? I'm catagorizing planes for World War II and it'd help to have a hierarchy in mind. Oberiko 15:11, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This page is messed up, and contains no link to naval aviation, which has needs of its own. Naval attack aircraft attempt to sink ships as well as destroy tactical ground targets. During WWII, these were called "Torpedo Bombers" and "Dive Bombers". The Japanese had long-ranged ground-based naval attack aircraft of their own, which the US did not, thinking that strategic (high-altitude, level) bombers such as the B-17 and B-24 could do the trick, but they failed at this, though B-24s could attack submarines at low level. Other aircraft used to destroy ships were the Observation aircraft, which would check to see the damage that battleship rounds were making on the target, and not attacking by themselves. In the US Army Air Corps, Attack Aircraft were not strategic (this was before nuclear weapons, though) and long-ranged, but tactical.
As for Oberiko's question, besides "dive bombers," there are "light bombers" (technically horizontal or level bombers, though they aren't called that), which are different ways of attacking a target. Eventually the Attack aircraft and the Light Bomber aircraft designs became practically indistinguishable. I think the distinction involves forward basing in rudimentary conditions (attack) as opposed to secure basing with lots of maintenance equipment (bomber), but that's just a guess.
"Fighter-bomber" derives from WWII, as the fuselage designs of fighter planes which weren't up to interception any longer, but which just happened to make good attack aircraft, using their powerful engines not for travelling fast, but for carrying a bomb. After WWII, purpose-built fighter-bombers were made by the USAF, because they didn't like the designation "Attack" aircraft any more -- the US Navy used it to take the place of the Torpedo and Dive Bombers once a design was made (Douglas Skyraider) which could do both. The USAF concentrated on fighter planes and long-range bombers.
"Strike fighter" is a late postwar British phrase for a plane which can do light bombing, and fight its way out. Currently neither the USAF and USN use this phrase; there's the ghastly term "F/A-18" instead. -- Sobolewski 20:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I am glad that someone who knows what ther are talking about would like to look into this. But I would like to pick up on a couple of points you raised:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Close Air Support is a doctrinal term describing a role or mission that can apply to Attack or Ground Attack Aircraft, but the opposite relationship isn't always automatic. Interdiction is also a doctrinal term that can describe a role that applies to the same aircraft. Are we also recommending that Interdiction and Close Air Support be merged?
I recommend the two not be merged. I also think that Ground Attack is really an outmoded term, since it is somewhat redundant. An Attack Aircraft is an aircraft that traditionally delivers air-to-ground munitions to targets that are on the ground.
So, I recommend:
Gotcha. Merge request already got killed on the CAS page for exactly the reasons you outlined. I'll take it off this one. I'm not sure if the renaming is apropos - generally the most accurate title is desired; I'd rather have "attack aircraft" redirect here than vice versa. You're welcome to put it up to discussion. I dont think that
Ground attack should redirect to CAS over AI or vice versa; since it applies equally to both, why not a stub/disambig page?--
Mmx1
00:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The definition makes a distinction between "ground attack" and "attack." But then the link in "attack" redirects right back here. Perhaps the best thing to do for now is to clarify the distinction between the terms in the definition on this page and to remove the link that just comes back. Thanks to the knowledegable person who can do that. Phytism ( talk) 11:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
See above from Born2flie. I'm not wholly sure; I'd like to hear what other people have to say.-- Mmx1 00:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I was surprised to read the a line in the World War II section comparing the Stuka with the Ilyushin Il-2, which claimed that the latter was a more famous example of a Ground attack aircraft. From my own experience, I knew quite a lot about the Stuka, but had only heard of the Il-2 because I saw the computer game of the same name in the bargain bin at my local games shop. Obviously, that's not a valid source of information, so I decided to do a quick google search, and found 1.26 million hits for the word "Stuka" and only 293,000 for "Il-2." I just added a {{ Fact}} tag because I couldn't find anything concrete either way. Minion-for-hire ( talk) 15:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I may have missed something, but why is there a photo of a Tornado F.3 on this page? And to boot, it's linked to Panavia Tornado Davidelit ( talk) 04:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
To quote the article, "Current US doctrine increasingly emphasizes the use of United States Army helicopters for close air support and anti-tank missions." Really? Since when? After the disastrous performance of the Apache in Iraq (I am specifically thinking of the incident where 33 Apaches engaged the Iraqi "Medina" armoured division resulting in 30 aircraft damaged or downed by an Iraqi "flak trap"), the Army has been shifting more towards aquiring fixed wing aircraft. They still haven't decided if they want something light (like the planes being considered for the Air Force's new OA-X program) or heavy (like the A-10), but they do want to get away from total reliance on the helicopter, and more towards fixed-wing aircraft. SpudHawg948 ( talk) 01:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved: no concensus after 29 days. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 09:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Ground-attack aircraft → Attack aircraft — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC) Move over an existing redirect to the same page. There is no need for the article to focus only on "ground attack aircraft", if most contests are generally about "attack aircraft". Both terms are vague and generally the first one is often used where the latter would be more proper. Per earlier discussion on talk page. -- Kubanczyk ( talk) 00:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be noted that modern ground-attack aircraft are not more accurate than older ones. ie a Stuka was just as accurate in destroying tanks as A-10 Warthogs, and was equally efficient in theater. The Age of Airpower by Martin van Creveld — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.186.148 ( talk) 07:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
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Saw that someone tried to delete this earlier, and I happen to agree with them. This page is referring to tactical (fixed wing) aircraft, and since attack helicopters have their own page I'm not sure what use they have here. 24.192.250.124 ( talk) 02:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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So, ground attack aircraft includes all "light" aircraft dedicated to taking out land-based targets...?
Those all count, right? I'm catagorizing planes for World War II and it'd help to have a hierarchy in mind. Oberiko 15:11, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This page is messed up, and contains no link to naval aviation, which has needs of its own. Naval attack aircraft attempt to sink ships as well as destroy tactical ground targets. During WWII, these were called "Torpedo Bombers" and "Dive Bombers". The Japanese had long-ranged ground-based naval attack aircraft of their own, which the US did not, thinking that strategic (high-altitude, level) bombers such as the B-17 and B-24 could do the trick, but they failed at this, though B-24s could attack submarines at low level. Other aircraft used to destroy ships were the Observation aircraft, which would check to see the damage that battleship rounds were making on the target, and not attacking by themselves. In the US Army Air Corps, Attack Aircraft were not strategic (this was before nuclear weapons, though) and long-ranged, but tactical.
As for Oberiko's question, besides "dive bombers," there are "light bombers" (technically horizontal or level bombers, though they aren't called that), which are different ways of attacking a target. Eventually the Attack aircraft and the Light Bomber aircraft designs became practically indistinguishable. I think the distinction involves forward basing in rudimentary conditions (attack) as opposed to secure basing with lots of maintenance equipment (bomber), but that's just a guess.
"Fighter-bomber" derives from WWII, as the fuselage designs of fighter planes which weren't up to interception any longer, but which just happened to make good attack aircraft, using their powerful engines not for travelling fast, but for carrying a bomb. After WWII, purpose-built fighter-bombers were made by the USAF, because they didn't like the designation "Attack" aircraft any more -- the US Navy used it to take the place of the Torpedo and Dive Bombers once a design was made (Douglas Skyraider) which could do both. The USAF concentrated on fighter planes and long-range bombers.
"Strike fighter" is a late postwar British phrase for a plane which can do light bombing, and fight its way out. Currently neither the USAF and USN use this phrase; there's the ghastly term "F/A-18" instead. -- Sobolewski 20:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I am glad that someone who knows what ther are talking about would like to look into this. But I would like to pick up on a couple of points you raised:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Close Air Support is a doctrinal term describing a role or mission that can apply to Attack or Ground Attack Aircraft, but the opposite relationship isn't always automatic. Interdiction is also a doctrinal term that can describe a role that applies to the same aircraft. Are we also recommending that Interdiction and Close Air Support be merged?
I recommend the two not be merged. I also think that Ground Attack is really an outmoded term, since it is somewhat redundant. An Attack Aircraft is an aircraft that traditionally delivers air-to-ground munitions to targets that are on the ground.
So, I recommend:
Gotcha. Merge request already got killed on the CAS page for exactly the reasons you outlined. I'll take it off this one. I'm not sure if the renaming is apropos - generally the most accurate title is desired; I'd rather have "attack aircraft" redirect here than vice versa. You're welcome to put it up to discussion. I dont think that
Ground attack should redirect to CAS over AI or vice versa; since it applies equally to both, why not a stub/disambig page?--
Mmx1
00:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The definition makes a distinction between "ground attack" and "attack." But then the link in "attack" redirects right back here. Perhaps the best thing to do for now is to clarify the distinction between the terms in the definition on this page and to remove the link that just comes back. Thanks to the knowledegable person who can do that. Phytism ( talk) 11:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
See above from Born2flie. I'm not wholly sure; I'd like to hear what other people have to say.-- Mmx1 00:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I was surprised to read the a line in the World War II section comparing the Stuka with the Ilyushin Il-2, which claimed that the latter was a more famous example of a Ground attack aircraft. From my own experience, I knew quite a lot about the Stuka, but had only heard of the Il-2 because I saw the computer game of the same name in the bargain bin at my local games shop. Obviously, that's not a valid source of information, so I decided to do a quick google search, and found 1.26 million hits for the word "Stuka" and only 293,000 for "Il-2." I just added a {{ Fact}} tag because I couldn't find anything concrete either way. Minion-for-hire ( talk) 15:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I may have missed something, but why is there a photo of a Tornado F.3 on this page? And to boot, it's linked to Panavia Tornado Davidelit ( talk) 04:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
To quote the article, "Current US doctrine increasingly emphasizes the use of United States Army helicopters for close air support and anti-tank missions." Really? Since when? After the disastrous performance of the Apache in Iraq (I am specifically thinking of the incident where 33 Apaches engaged the Iraqi "Medina" armoured division resulting in 30 aircraft damaged or downed by an Iraqi "flak trap"), the Army has been shifting more towards aquiring fixed wing aircraft. They still haven't decided if they want something light (like the planes being considered for the Air Force's new OA-X program) or heavy (like the A-10), but they do want to get away from total reliance on the helicopter, and more towards fixed-wing aircraft. SpudHawg948 ( talk) 01:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved: no concensus after 29 days. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 09:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Ground-attack aircraft → Attack aircraft — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC) Move over an existing redirect to the same page. There is no need for the article to focus only on "ground attack aircraft", if most contests are generally about "attack aircraft". Both terms are vague and generally the first one is often used where the latter would be more proper. Per earlier discussion on talk page. -- Kubanczyk ( talk) 00:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be noted that modern ground-attack aircraft are not more accurate than older ones. ie a Stuka was just as accurate in destroying tanks as A-10 Warthogs, and was equally efficient in theater. The Age of Airpower by Martin van Creveld — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.186.148 ( talk) 07:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Saw that someone tried to delete this earlier, and I happen to agree with them. This page is referring to tactical (fixed wing) aircraft, and since attack helicopters have their own page I'm not sure what use they have here. 24.192.250.124 ( talk) 02:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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