This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norway, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Norway on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NorwayWikipedia:WikiProject NorwayTemplate:WikiProject NorwayNorway articles
This could for instance be compared to
Squaw Valley, which is obviously a valley as such, but is most referred to as an district with distinct features. Not even the germans translate Squaw Valley to Indianische Frau Tal.
Groruddalen (as well as other Norwegian placenames with -dalen og -dal) is most commonly refered to as an administrative entity or sociogeographical area. It is seldom though of as a valley as landscape shape per se. Translation of the suffix might be used for a
distancing effect or to make a comic effect.
There is nothing limited about the arguments #1-4 above. You are using a variety of different counterattack defences (grasping at straws and limited sources) rather than discussing the matter in question. Speaking of limited sources; your 84 versus 79 hits from is also a limited source. Looking at National library of Norway online book service, there are 19 books in a search for Grorud valley, whilst there are 74 books in a search for Grodruddalen in english language books.
The suggested "search at Visit Oslo" or "translations used in english language books by norwegians" is certainly limiting one's scope to cherry-picked sources (and nonnative English at that). Regarding your no. 4, English WP says "The Grorud Valley ... is a broad valley ..." and Norwegian WP says "Groruddalen er et dalstrøk ...". They both immediately and clearly describe it as a valley.
Doremo (
talk)
10:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
If the WP articles are wrong, then they should be corrected: "The Grorud Valley ... is not a broad valley ..." / "Groruddalen er ikke et dalstrøk ...".
Doremo (
talk)
11:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Groruddalen is of course a valley, but the name is also or primarly the name for an area within Oslo. As a name for the eastern/northeastern suburb the two components have been permanently fused. Groruddalen is the actually name for this area and we should not impose an constructed name like Grorud Valley. --— Erik Jr.13:33, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
In the national library I only found a couple of books from the 1960s with the name "Grorud Valley". In Google Scholar there are some 300 hits for "Groruddalen" in English language articles, but only 80 for "Grorud Valley". — Erik Jr.13:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
That's another reasonable means of comparison; it stands in contrast to the prevalence of "
Grorud Valley is" in a Google search. For what it's worth, the ratio of Grorud Valley:Groruddalen is 2:1 at newspapers.com and (near as I can figure) 5:4 in a Google Books search.
Doremo (
talk)
14:58, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Doremo has
citedMade in Norway: New Norwegian Architecture as an evidence for the usage of the name Grorud valley in english texts. Truth is, that in this book (
Google books here), the term Grorud Valley is used once, and the term Groruddalen valley is used once. Both on page 120. Thus; this book can not be used as a source for at choice between terms.
Orland (
talk)
07:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Grorud Valley → Groruddalen – Groruddalen (as well as many other Norwegian placenames with -dalen og -dal) is most commonly refered to as an administrative entity or sociogeographical area. It is seldom though of as a valley as landscape shape per se. In english texts of norwegian origin, it is by far most common to refer to this area as Groruddalen or even Groruddalen valley. Translation of the suffix might be used for a
distancing effect or to make a comic effect. In
Category:Valleys of Norway there are 120+ pages, only one other of them with valley, the other ones with their proper norwegian names.
Orland (
talk) 15:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.bd2412T13:10, 7 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:ENGLISH. As discussed above, Grorud Valley is more common than Groruddalen in a general Google search, in a Google Books search, and in a newspapers.com search. In addition to being more common, it is also a better English form than the endonym Groruddalen.
Doremo (
talk)
16:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. Groruddalen is a proper noun that can not be decomposed and translated at will. This is the actual name for this area within Oslo. Groruddalen is notably more common than Grorud Valley in scholarly sources (per Google Scholar) and in the National Library of Norway. This kind of Norwegian place name is consistently listed in this way in English WP. --— Erik Jr.17:14, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment. This article may be discussing two separate topics: 1) The Grorud Valley, a physical geographical feature, which appears to have been the
original contributor's intent, and 2) a suburb (i.e., settlement) named Groruddalen, which is a populated place in Oslo. If so, it would make good sense to create a separate article called Groruddalen for that populated place.
Doremo (
talk)
09:49, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Nah. The first version of this article describes a urban area/suburb/settlement with motorways, urbanization, population, and administrative borders. We can't make dulicate articles about every inhabited valley in Norway. Bw
Orland (
talk)
10:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The
original article is rather geophysical ("The Grorud Valley ... is a broad valley ... on the valleysides ... in the valley basin ... In the south of the valley ... The central valley is ... across the valley") while necessarily discussing settlement as well.
Doremo (
talk)
10:58, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Neutral, chiming in here as the author who chose the title 13 years ago. Either name is acceptable. "Groruddalen" is probably used slightly more often, even in English, but "Grorud Valley" has been used in official contexts as well (e.g.
[2]). USEENGLISH probably supports "Grorud Valley", COMMONNAME supports "Groruddalen". In either case, there should be a redirect from the other title.
Sjakkalle(Check!)06:53, 29 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. Stating the obvious. (Uncertain about whether or not the initiator should give his opition in a bulletpoint as well).
Orland (
talk)
08:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norway, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Norway on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NorwayWikipedia:WikiProject NorwayTemplate:WikiProject NorwayNorway articles
This could for instance be compared to
Squaw Valley, which is obviously a valley as such, but is most referred to as an district with distinct features. Not even the germans translate Squaw Valley to Indianische Frau Tal.
Groruddalen (as well as other Norwegian placenames with -dalen og -dal) is most commonly refered to as an administrative entity or sociogeographical area. It is seldom though of as a valley as landscape shape per se. Translation of the suffix might be used for a
distancing effect or to make a comic effect.
There is nothing limited about the arguments #1-4 above. You are using a variety of different counterattack defences (grasping at straws and limited sources) rather than discussing the matter in question. Speaking of limited sources; your 84 versus 79 hits from is also a limited source. Looking at National library of Norway online book service, there are 19 books in a search for Grorud valley, whilst there are 74 books in a search for Grodruddalen in english language books.
The suggested "search at Visit Oslo" or "translations used in english language books by norwegians" is certainly limiting one's scope to cherry-picked sources (and nonnative English at that). Regarding your no. 4, English WP says "The Grorud Valley ... is a broad valley ..." and Norwegian WP says "Groruddalen er et dalstrøk ...". They both immediately and clearly describe it as a valley.
Doremo (
talk)
10:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
If the WP articles are wrong, then they should be corrected: "The Grorud Valley ... is not a broad valley ..." / "Groruddalen er ikke et dalstrøk ...".
Doremo (
talk)
11:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Groruddalen is of course a valley, but the name is also or primarly the name for an area within Oslo. As a name for the eastern/northeastern suburb the two components have been permanently fused. Groruddalen is the actually name for this area and we should not impose an constructed name like Grorud Valley. --— Erik Jr.13:33, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
In the national library I only found a couple of books from the 1960s with the name "Grorud Valley". In Google Scholar there are some 300 hits for "Groruddalen" in English language articles, but only 80 for "Grorud Valley". — Erik Jr.13:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
That's another reasonable means of comparison; it stands in contrast to the prevalence of "
Grorud Valley is" in a Google search. For what it's worth, the ratio of Grorud Valley:Groruddalen is 2:1 at newspapers.com and (near as I can figure) 5:4 in a Google Books search.
Doremo (
talk)
14:58, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Doremo has
citedMade in Norway: New Norwegian Architecture as an evidence for the usage of the name Grorud valley in english texts. Truth is, that in this book (
Google books here), the term Grorud Valley is used once, and the term Groruddalen valley is used once. Both on page 120. Thus; this book can not be used as a source for at choice between terms.
Orland (
talk)
07:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Grorud Valley → Groruddalen – Groruddalen (as well as many other Norwegian placenames with -dalen og -dal) is most commonly refered to as an administrative entity or sociogeographical area. It is seldom though of as a valley as landscape shape per se. In english texts of norwegian origin, it is by far most common to refer to this area as Groruddalen or even Groruddalen valley. Translation of the suffix might be used for a
distancing effect or to make a comic effect. In
Category:Valleys of Norway there are 120+ pages, only one other of them with valley, the other ones with their proper norwegian names.
Orland (
talk) 15:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.bd2412T13:10, 7 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:ENGLISH. As discussed above, Grorud Valley is more common than Groruddalen in a general Google search, in a Google Books search, and in a newspapers.com search. In addition to being more common, it is also a better English form than the endonym Groruddalen.
Doremo (
talk)
16:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. Groruddalen is a proper noun that can not be decomposed and translated at will. This is the actual name for this area within Oslo. Groruddalen is notably more common than Grorud Valley in scholarly sources (per Google Scholar) and in the National Library of Norway. This kind of Norwegian place name is consistently listed in this way in English WP. --— Erik Jr.17:14, 25 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment. This article may be discussing two separate topics: 1) The Grorud Valley, a physical geographical feature, which appears to have been the
original contributor's intent, and 2) a suburb (i.e., settlement) named Groruddalen, which is a populated place in Oslo. If so, it would make good sense to create a separate article called Groruddalen for that populated place.
Doremo (
talk)
09:49, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Nah. The first version of this article describes a urban area/suburb/settlement with motorways, urbanization, population, and administrative borders. We can't make dulicate articles about every inhabited valley in Norway. Bw
Orland (
talk)
10:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The
original article is rather geophysical ("The Grorud Valley ... is a broad valley ... on the valleysides ... in the valley basin ... In the south of the valley ... The central valley is ... across the valley") while necessarily discussing settlement as well.
Doremo (
talk)
10:58, 26 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Neutral, chiming in here as the author who chose the title 13 years ago. Either name is acceptable. "Groruddalen" is probably used slightly more often, even in English, but "Grorud Valley" has been used in official contexts as well (e.g.
[2]). USEENGLISH probably supports "Grorud Valley", COMMONNAME supports "Groruddalen". In either case, there should be a redirect from the other title.
Sjakkalle(Check!)06:53, 29 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. Stating the obvious. (Uncertain about whether or not the initiator should give his opition in a bulletpoint as well).
Orland (
talk)
08:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.