![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Armenia may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Why is he described Georgian politician in Byzantine service of Armenian descent? Isn't he Byzantine politician of Georgian and Armenian descent (since he did all those things described in the article in Byzantine service and not in Georgian or Armenian one)? I'm obviously not an expert but I fail to see logic in the current intro. Alæxis ¿question? 06:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Ethnicity is not same as religion, there are 2 sources on his Armenian ethnicity. There are aremenians adhering to different branches of christianity. Hetoum I 07:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no constructive use of removal or manipulation of cited verifiable quotes. Thank you for additional reference dear Alaexis. Hetoum I 20:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I updated the details of his death with reference to the notes from DBM army list book 4 list 1 ( page 5). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.45.71 ( talk) 23:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Gregory Bakurianis-dze (the son of Bakurian) clearly refers himself as an ethnic Georgian in the typikon written and signed by himself. Here are the quotations:
"აღიწერა და დაემტკიცა ბრძანებითა ჩემ გრიგოლისითა, ნებითა ღმრთისაჲთა, სევასტოსისა და დიდისა დემესტიკოსისა დასავალეთისაჲთა, ძისა სანატრელისა ერის-თავთა მთავრისა ბაკურიანისაჲთა, აღმოსავალელისა და ქართველისაჲთა." (By the will of God, this was written and confirmed by me, Grigol (Gregory), the Sebastos and the Great Domestikos of the West, the son of the Mtavar of Eristavs (the chief of the dukes) the blessed Bakurian the Georgian from the East.)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze),The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 0,2
In the same Typikon Gregory the son of Bakurian states his Georgian ethnicity also with the pride:
"ქართველნი ვართ ნათესავით მჴნენი და მჴედრობითა აღზრდილნი და მარადის ჭირვეულსა ცხორებასა ჩუეულნი." (We Georgians are the valiant kin and raised to be warriors and are accustomed to hard life.)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze),The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 0,4
As for the Georgian ethnicity of inhabitants of the Petritzon Monastery, it is also clearly written in the same Typikon:
"დაიწერა ბერძულად და ქართულად, რამეთუ მონაზონნი მონასტრისა ჩემისანი გუარად ქართველნი არიან და არა იციან ბერძული წარკითხვაჲ და ჯერ-არს რაჲთა ქართულად წერილსა აღმოიკითხვიდენ და გულისჴმა-ჰყოფდენ აღწერილსა განსაზღვრებულსა ამას შინა ტიპიკონსა." (Was written in Greek and Georgian, because the monks of this monastery are of Georgian kin and they are not able to read in Greek and they have to read written in Georgian, in order to understand what is described and defined in this Typikon)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze), The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 36,2
This citation is interesting also, for it indicates the groundlessness of the late insertion in the New Greek distorted translation of the Typikon about the Armenian version of it, which is the source of unestablished speculations. -- Benfaremo ( talk) 17:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kober, please give citation. Wikipedia isn't a place for promoting your personal ideas and beliefs. Readers need to know what the source of your information is. For example: "He was a son of Bakuri." (author, page).
Also, where is the other opinion that his name is Aluz? Why did you destroy my sitation given for this name? Karim Ali
The Armenian Russian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian in her doctoral dissertation, which is а published book in Russian (Типик Григория Пакуриана, 1978, 34-43), after analyzing different opinions about the name of Gregory Pakourianos’s father comes to the conclusion that his father’s name is Aluz and his grandfather’s name is Pakourian. Also, in this book you can find the family tree of Pakourianos according different authors. Karim Ali, July 2007
Kober, why are you giving wrong information? For example:"... he served in Georgia, Armenia, and Syria". The correct is:
He "... spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting Roman Empire..." (Typicon, Chapter Eighteen). Karim Ali, July 2007.
Kober, thank you for your corrections. Could we also get rid of the following repetition: “He is … the founder of the then-Georgian Orthodox Bachkovo Monastery …” “… he founded the Georgian Orthodox monastery of Petritzos …” Karim Ali, August 2007.
But where is the alternate view for the monastery being named anything other than “Georgian”? Can you summarize the article from a neutral point of view? Karim Ali, August 2007
The Greek historian C. Asdracha who is using many different sources, including Bulgarian, in her published doctoral dissertation, remarks that we can’t look at the Iberians in the monastery as an ethnic group. She named the monastery - “the Monastery of Bachkovo” (Asdracha, 74-75).
The above opinion is also confirmed by the Russian Armenian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian who states that the word “Iberian” in 11 century can have different meanings (Фиданян, 134).
This connection between Armenian-Iberian and Georgian Eastern Orthodox Christians must be included in the article because now it seems a little strange that Pakourianos founded Georgian Orthodox monasteries. Karim Ali, August 2007.
“Engaged in a military service since at least the early 1060s, he served in the Byzantine-controlled Georgian, Armenian, Syrian, and Balkan Peninsula lands.” (in the article)
“I spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting the Roman Empire too, seeking to provide for my own life.” (in the Typikon of Gregory Pakourianos for the Monastery in Bačkovo)
Based on the Typikon of Gregory Pakourianos above, I am changing the text of the article to the following:
“He spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting the Roman Empire too, seeking to provide for his own life, before his military service since at least the early 1060s.” -- Karim Ali Talk 10:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
A mural painting of the two brothers, in the bone-vault house near the Monastery of Bachkovo in Bulgaria, is out of condition according: http://www.journey.bg/bulgaria/bulgaria.php?guide=4208 Костницата на Бачковския манастир (The bone-vault house of the Monastery of Bachkovo. A Bulgarian translation from Russian) -- Karim Ali Talk 03:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
This is what is written here, Page 51
“ | The present typikon was written in Greek, 69 Georgian, and Armenian for our very sacred
monastery of the most holy Mother of God Petritzonitissa in the month of December of the sev-enth indiction, year 6592, and was signed in Armenian by me myself, Gregory Pakourianos, the sebastos and megas domestikos of the West |
” |
Is this contradicted by other sources? Alæxis ¿question? 17:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
1. The word “Georgian” is not on the title of the Typicon of the Monastery. Adding the word “Georgian” in the name of the monastery is wrong.
2. Where is written Iberian (Georgian)? No one of authors in 2, 3, and 4 wrote that the monks of the Bachkovo monastery were Iberians (Georgians). In 11 century, the word “Iberians” in Byzantine was used mostly for the citizens of Byzantine Theme of Iberia which population was in majority Armenians.
3. Where is the sing of Pakourianos in the Georgian language Typicon if his last pages are mising? Please, do not mislead people who do not know Georgian language. See this Typicon in the part “External links”. Simba22 ( talk) 22:04, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
The reason those sources are not kept is because they are not speaking as authorities on the matter. The ethnicity of "my" (whatever that means) sources is not and should not be made an issue here and I ask that you do not bring it up again or else I will lodge a complaint at the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard. They are, however, specialists on the matter and their articles or writings are specifically addressing Pakourianos' ethnic identity. If you actually bothered to read Kazhdan's and Toumanoff's works you'll see they are are much more ambivalent about his identity than you are leading the readers to believe. Kazhdan, who have you cited as supporting a Georgian background, takes a more nuanced position in his article and states that Pakourianos was most probably of mixed Armenian-Georgian background, which Garsoian has accepted in her entry in the ODB. You yourself have engaged in gross POV editing, and have even distorted the meaning of the word "Vrats'", which in Classical Armenian referred to Chalcedonian Armenians (Iberians), and not Georgians per se.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments.
Firstly, I don’t appreciate being threatened. I have not removed any of the existing text in the article and all new information was well referenced from world leading publications. You on the other hand have simply deleted on two occasions all my contributions because you were unhappy that already existing statement was slightly bulked up, so it should be me sending you a warning.
Secondly, your arguments are completely flawed:
i) Regarding me confusing Matteos de Urhas statement, its NOT my assumption of the translation of the word Vrats it’s the assumption of 1) Russian/Soviet Academy of Sciences 2) Hungarian Academy of Sciences (Between the Danube and the Caucasus, Akadémiai Kiadó, 1987) 3) Indian Institution on Macedonian Studies (New Dehli, 1988). They all put Matteos’s statement as a counter to Anna Comnena’s statement. So DO NOT remove this note.
Regarding scholars noting his Georgian, not Armenian Chalcedonian heritage:
i) Paul Lemerle states that Pakourianos was Georgian by blood, not purely religion. FYI he is founding president of the International Association of Byzantine Studies (AIEB) and the leading scholar on the subject in France
ii) Judith Herrin (Princeton), John Philip Thoma (Harvard), Robert Browning (Washington) differentiate between the two. Paul Magdalino (St. Andrews) even reverses the Armenian connection stating he was a “Georgian noble or an Armenian with a Georgian background”.
iii) Pakourianos himself notes that he is Georgian, using the Georgian word for self denomination Kartveli on 3 different occasions in the original Typikon written in Georgian. He says that he belonged to "the glorious people of the Georgians," he insisted on his monks knowing the Georgian language”
I believe some compromise needs to be found. I hence suggest the following wording [see updated below]:
Please revert if you are happy with this wording. Its strongly backed by facts, so there should be no issues. I will wait for your confirmation before uploading.
Best regards, --AktadG (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AktadG ( talk • contribs)
Gregory himself notes that he belonged to "the glorious people of the Georgians," and insisted on his monks knowing the Georgian language”. His ethnic origins however, are a matter for scholarly dispute. According to the contemporary historian Anna Comnena, who knew Pakourianos personally, Gregory was "descended from a noble Armenian family", while according to another of his contemporaries, an Armenian historian Matthew of Edessa (Matteos of Urha), Pakourianos was Georgian. According to the others, Pakourianos was born into either a Chalcedonian Armenian or Georgian family in the region of Tao or Tayk, which had been annexed by the Byzantines to the theme of Iberia in 1001. According to the scholar Nina G. Garsoïan, "the most likely explanation is that [the Pakourian family] belonged to the mixed Armeno-Iberian Chalcedonian aristocracy, which dwelt in the border district of Tayk'/Tao
The monks of the monastery and Gregory Pakourianos did not know Georgians. They were Aremenians from the Byzantine theme of Iberia!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.109.218 ( talk) 06:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Gregory Pakourianos. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Armenia may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Why is he described Georgian politician in Byzantine service of Armenian descent? Isn't he Byzantine politician of Georgian and Armenian descent (since he did all those things described in the article in Byzantine service and not in Georgian or Armenian one)? I'm obviously not an expert but I fail to see logic in the current intro. Alæxis ¿question? 06:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Ethnicity is not same as religion, there are 2 sources on his Armenian ethnicity. There are aremenians adhering to different branches of christianity. Hetoum I 07:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no constructive use of removal or manipulation of cited verifiable quotes. Thank you for additional reference dear Alaexis. Hetoum I 20:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I updated the details of his death with reference to the notes from DBM army list book 4 list 1 ( page 5). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.45.71 ( talk) 23:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Gregory Bakurianis-dze (the son of Bakurian) clearly refers himself as an ethnic Georgian in the typikon written and signed by himself. Here are the quotations:
"აღიწერა და დაემტკიცა ბრძანებითა ჩემ გრიგოლისითა, ნებითა ღმრთისაჲთა, სევასტოსისა და დიდისა დემესტიკოსისა დასავალეთისაჲთა, ძისა სანატრელისა ერის-თავთა მთავრისა ბაკურიანისაჲთა, აღმოსავალელისა და ქართველისაჲთა." (By the will of God, this was written and confirmed by me, Grigol (Gregory), the Sebastos and the Great Domestikos of the West, the son of the Mtavar of Eristavs (the chief of the dukes) the blessed Bakurian the Georgian from the East.)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze),The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 0,2
In the same Typikon Gregory the son of Bakurian states his Georgian ethnicity also with the pride:
"ქართველნი ვართ ნათესავით მჴნენი და მჴედრობითა აღზრდილნი და მარადის ჭირვეულსა ცხორებასა ჩუეულნი." (We Georgians are the valiant kin and raised to be warriors and are accustomed to hard life.)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze),The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 0,4
As for the Georgian ethnicity of inhabitants of the Petritzon Monastery, it is also clearly written in the same Typikon:
"დაიწერა ბერძულად და ქართულად, რამეთუ მონაზონნი მონასტრისა ჩემისანი გუარად ქართველნი არიან და არა იციან ბერძული წარკითხვაჲ და ჯერ-არს რაჲთა ქართულად წერილსა აღმოიკითხვიდენ და გულისჴმა-ჰყოფდენ აღწერილსა განსაზღვრებულსა ამას შინა ტიპიკონსა." (Was written in Greek and Georgian, because the monks of this monastery are of Georgian kin and they are not able to read in Greek and they have to read written in Georgian, in order to understand what is described and defined in this Typikon)
Gregorius Pacurianus (Grigol Bakurianis-dze), The Typikon of the Georgian Petritzon Monastery (written in 1083 y.), 36,2
This citation is interesting also, for it indicates the groundlessness of the late insertion in the New Greek distorted translation of the Typikon about the Armenian version of it, which is the source of unestablished speculations. -- Benfaremo ( talk) 17:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kober, please give citation. Wikipedia isn't a place for promoting your personal ideas and beliefs. Readers need to know what the source of your information is. For example: "He was a son of Bakuri." (author, page).
Also, where is the other opinion that his name is Aluz? Why did you destroy my sitation given for this name? Karim Ali
The Armenian Russian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian in her doctoral dissertation, which is а published book in Russian (Типик Григория Пакуриана, 1978, 34-43), after analyzing different opinions about the name of Gregory Pakourianos’s father comes to the conclusion that his father’s name is Aluz and his grandfather’s name is Pakourian. Also, in this book you can find the family tree of Pakourianos according different authors. Karim Ali, July 2007
Kober, why are you giving wrong information? For example:"... he served in Georgia, Armenia, and Syria". The correct is:
He "... spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting Roman Empire..." (Typicon, Chapter Eighteen). Karim Ali, July 2007.
Kober, thank you for your corrections. Could we also get rid of the following repetition: “He is … the founder of the then-Georgian Orthodox Bachkovo Monastery …” “… he founded the Georgian Orthodox monastery of Petritzos …” Karim Ali, August 2007.
But where is the alternate view for the monastery being named anything other than “Georgian”? Can you summarize the article from a neutral point of view? Karim Ali, August 2007
The Greek historian C. Asdracha who is using many different sources, including Bulgarian, in her published doctoral dissertation, remarks that we can’t look at the Iberians in the monastery as an ethnic group. She named the monastery - “the Monastery of Bachkovo” (Asdracha, 74-75).
The above opinion is also confirmed by the Russian Armenian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian who states that the word “Iberian” in 11 century can have different meanings (Фиданян, 134).
This connection between Armenian-Iberian and Georgian Eastern Orthodox Christians must be included in the article because now it seems a little strange that Pakourianos founded Georgian Orthodox monasteries. Karim Ali, August 2007.
“Engaged in a military service since at least the early 1060s, he served in the Byzantine-controlled Georgian, Armenian, Syrian, and Balkan Peninsula lands.” (in the article)
“I spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting the Roman Empire too, seeking to provide for my own life.” (in the Typikon of Gregory Pakourianos for the Monastery in Bačkovo)
Based on the Typikon of Gregory Pakourianos above, I am changing the text of the article to the following:
“He spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting the Roman Empire too, seeking to provide for his own life, before his military service since at least the early 1060s.” -- Karim Ali Talk 10:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
A mural painting of the two brothers, in the bone-vault house near the Monastery of Bachkovo in Bulgaria, is out of condition according: http://www.journey.bg/bulgaria/bulgaria.php?guide=4208 Костницата на Бачковския манастир (The bone-vault house of the Monastery of Bachkovo. A Bulgarian translation from Russian) -- Karim Ali Talk 03:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
This is what is written here, Page 51
“ | The present typikon was written in Greek, 69 Georgian, and Armenian for our very sacred
monastery of the most holy Mother of God Petritzonitissa in the month of December of the sev-enth indiction, year 6592, and was signed in Armenian by me myself, Gregory Pakourianos, the sebastos and megas domestikos of the West |
” |
Is this contradicted by other sources? Alæxis ¿question? 17:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
1. The word “Georgian” is not on the title of the Typicon of the Monastery. Adding the word “Georgian” in the name of the monastery is wrong.
2. Where is written Iberian (Georgian)? No one of authors in 2, 3, and 4 wrote that the monks of the Bachkovo monastery were Iberians (Georgians). In 11 century, the word “Iberians” in Byzantine was used mostly for the citizens of Byzantine Theme of Iberia which population was in majority Armenians.
3. Where is the sing of Pakourianos in the Georgian language Typicon if his last pages are mising? Please, do not mislead people who do not know Georgian language. See this Typicon in the part “External links”. Simba22 ( talk) 22:04, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
The reason those sources are not kept is because they are not speaking as authorities on the matter. The ethnicity of "my" (whatever that means) sources is not and should not be made an issue here and I ask that you do not bring it up again or else I will lodge a complaint at the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard. They are, however, specialists on the matter and their articles or writings are specifically addressing Pakourianos' ethnic identity. If you actually bothered to read Kazhdan's and Toumanoff's works you'll see they are are much more ambivalent about his identity than you are leading the readers to believe. Kazhdan, who have you cited as supporting a Georgian background, takes a more nuanced position in his article and states that Pakourianos was most probably of mixed Armenian-Georgian background, which Garsoian has accepted in her entry in the ODB. You yourself have engaged in gross POV editing, and have even distorted the meaning of the word "Vrats'", which in Classical Armenian referred to Chalcedonian Armenians (Iberians), and not Georgians per se.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments.
Firstly, I don’t appreciate being threatened. I have not removed any of the existing text in the article and all new information was well referenced from world leading publications. You on the other hand have simply deleted on two occasions all my contributions because you were unhappy that already existing statement was slightly bulked up, so it should be me sending you a warning.
Secondly, your arguments are completely flawed:
i) Regarding me confusing Matteos de Urhas statement, its NOT my assumption of the translation of the word Vrats it’s the assumption of 1) Russian/Soviet Academy of Sciences 2) Hungarian Academy of Sciences (Between the Danube and the Caucasus, Akadémiai Kiadó, 1987) 3) Indian Institution on Macedonian Studies (New Dehli, 1988). They all put Matteos’s statement as a counter to Anna Comnena’s statement. So DO NOT remove this note.
Regarding scholars noting his Georgian, not Armenian Chalcedonian heritage:
i) Paul Lemerle states that Pakourianos was Georgian by blood, not purely religion. FYI he is founding president of the International Association of Byzantine Studies (AIEB) and the leading scholar on the subject in France
ii) Judith Herrin (Princeton), John Philip Thoma (Harvard), Robert Browning (Washington) differentiate between the two. Paul Magdalino (St. Andrews) even reverses the Armenian connection stating he was a “Georgian noble or an Armenian with a Georgian background”.
iii) Pakourianos himself notes that he is Georgian, using the Georgian word for self denomination Kartveli on 3 different occasions in the original Typikon written in Georgian. He says that he belonged to "the glorious people of the Georgians," he insisted on his monks knowing the Georgian language”
I believe some compromise needs to be found. I hence suggest the following wording [see updated below]:
Please revert if you are happy with this wording. Its strongly backed by facts, so there should be no issues. I will wait for your confirmation before uploading.
Best regards, --AktadG (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AktadG ( talk • contribs)
Gregory himself notes that he belonged to "the glorious people of the Georgians," and insisted on his monks knowing the Georgian language”. His ethnic origins however, are a matter for scholarly dispute. According to the contemporary historian Anna Comnena, who knew Pakourianos personally, Gregory was "descended from a noble Armenian family", while according to another of his contemporaries, an Armenian historian Matthew of Edessa (Matteos of Urha), Pakourianos was Georgian. According to the others, Pakourianos was born into either a Chalcedonian Armenian or Georgian family in the region of Tao or Tayk, which had been annexed by the Byzantines to the theme of Iberia in 1001. According to the scholar Nina G. Garsoïan, "the most likely explanation is that [the Pakourian family] belonged to the mixed Armeno-Iberian Chalcedonian aristocracy, which dwelt in the border district of Tayk'/Tao
The monks of the monastery and Gregory Pakourianos did not know Georgians. They were Aremenians from the Byzantine theme of Iberia!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.109.218 ( talk) 06:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Gregory Pakourianos. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)