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Can somebody pls back this accusation up?? If not I am going to take it out.. Look people, it is one thing to talk about the past and analyze it, but it is one thing to just fuel ethnic-hatred.. It has been needing a citation for months..
These are serious allegations.. Turkish and Greek people are very close, let's not dwell on the sad moments of our history.. Calling each other child-killers, baby-killers is not going to get anybody anywhere, at least not in Wikipedia.
And let's not forget Wikipedia is not for original research, as was mentioned below... Baristarim 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The correct term is "White Death" or "White Massacres". A citation has been added. The term refers to various forms of atrocities, i.e., boycott, deportations, death by starvation in labor camps, etc.
Rizos01 01:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I think everyone should note that Turkey doesn't deny people died. They deny that it was genocide (the elimination of a ethnic, religious, racial etc group with intent), but more like war casualties. -- Telex 15:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
What about Cyprus? Was it also a "Greek insland in a Turkish sea"? I think Turkish people overestimate the size of their "sea" (whatever that is). Miskin 14:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The "Arguments against" section of the article says:
However, the "Official recognition" section says:
Which one is true? Here is the PDF. To me it doesn't look like a letter, but an offical UN document. Correct me if I'm wrong. — Khoikhoi
Nope, it just says this:
There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,
- Through your internet options, adjust your privacy settings to allow cookies or
- Check your security settings and make sure this site has not been blocked or
- You are probably using a very slow link that may not work well with this application.
Otherwise you have reached this site through unauthorized means.
— Khoikhoi 01:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
pontian genocide
. The above link works for me though. --
Telex 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)The U.N. document referenced in the article starts with the following statement: The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1296 (XLIV) Basically the document implies no endorsement of the statement's contents. It just acknowledges the receipt of the statement from a NGO called International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP). There has never been a vote on the U.N. floor to approve a resolution on this issue. Therefore, the following statement in this Wikipedia article "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." is a gross misstatement. The absence of any follow-up on the alleged Pontian genocide by the U.N. commission on Human Rights since 1998 (8 years) indicates that this issue has not been taken seriously. I propose that the statement "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." be removed from this Wikipedia article. There is no such recognition. --- Vikiyazar 15:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I provide the following sources for further investigation on the issue:
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2004/SR.16, 30 March 2004, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Sixtieth session, Held at the Palais des Nations, Geneva, on Tuesday, 23 March 2004, at 10 a.m., Chairperson: Mr. SMITH (Australia) ( [4]):
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2002/NGO/30, 25 January 2002, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Fifty-eighth session, Item 11 (c) of the provisional agenda, CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE QUESTIONS OF: FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
Written statement* submitted by the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP), a non-governmental organizations in special consultative status ( [5])
Embassy of Greece - Press Office:
So, from the last one, I guess it hasn't been recognised yet, but there are efforts toward that direction... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh my God, how did you come up with such an inflated number? Is there any limit to one's imagination? What is the basis for this number? You just can't manufacture historical facts like that. It is doubtful that 1 million Greeks ever existed in Pontus in any period of history. The article on Pontic Greeks claims that there are more than 2 million Pontic Greeks living in the world today. This number boggles my mind and it can't be true. 1 million Pontian Greeks killed and still 2 million Pontian Greeks living in the World today???? Considering the fact that the entire population of the Ottoman Empire at the turn of the century was 40 million people (including Muslims and Christians) and that Greeks didn't even constitute the majority of the Black Sea population, all these numbers about the Pontian Greeks living in the World today and those that were killed sound utterly fantastic to me.
I am also quite offended that the paragraph that I added to the Pontian Greek Genocide article called "Arguments Against" was deleted by the same user with an IP number of 87.203.236.72 Clearly this person wants to dictate his opinions to Wikipedia by brute force regardless of the truth. I will make one more attempt to reinstate the version by Khoikhoi dated 04:25, 25 May 2006. If the User:87.203.236.72 deletes that version and reinstates his imaginary 1 million number, I refuse to play this silly game. He can have his way. In the meantime, the victim is Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. Let's not allow Wikipedia to be turned into a political battleground. --- Vikiyazar 15:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
For the simple reason that no one but the Greek parliament seems to recognise it as genocide. A more acceptable name is needed for this article. -- A.Garnet 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose to stick with "genocide", this term has an academic basis, whether or not it is recognised by an international organization is irrelevant. Miskin 17:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
What academic basis? something like that I suppose:
"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide. I know of no work in English focusing on it. But numerous scholars have studied the Armenian genocide and since the 1960s it has become particularly well publicized... Perhaps general appreciation of this genocide [Armenian] is now second only to that of the Jews... To this day, Turkey absolutely denies that her past governments committed any genocide or mass murder. In this she is aided by the silence of those nations whose archives amply document it. Among them is the United States, which, despite the official contemporary reports of its ambassador and consular officials, now adamantly refuses to recognize this clear genocide. Turkey is a member of NATO, was deemed essential for defense of the southern tier against Soviet aggression during the Cold War, and has since that time been deemed an important Western friend in a hostile and volatile region..."
R. J. Rummel, Death by government.
This is only an example of how the Pontic genocide is recognised within academic circles. There are of course many more.
Miskin 17:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Since when does wikipedia restrict its article naming policy according to the variety of other encyclopaedias? Unbiased books are as credible as other encyclopaedias, and I can bring up more citations if this one doesn't convince you. Miskin 18:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
However you see that the citations exist, which means that the article will be expanded sooner or later. Do you really believe that credible sources will have any reason to lie about this? It's called genocide, and by the definition of the word that's what it was. I can't understand how someone can be as disrespectful as to not even be willing to admit it. Miskin 19:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok point me to the WP:POLICY which remotely implies such a rule and we'll speak seriously then. Miskin 22:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Didn't I just prove that people who deal with it regard it as a genocide? I want to see a policy which says that "if no english, non-partisan source is not exclusively devoted on a topic, it's not allowed to have an article". Miskin 22:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap":
"According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
No mention of genocide here but emphasis must be given on "as we did with the Armenians".
Miskin 18:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
R. J. Rummel has a table entitled Turkey's Armenian and Greek Genocide in which he states:
Miskin 18:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think one way we can make the article more neutral, particularly in the "Background" section, is instead of presenting the information at 100% absolute facts, we can say "according to John Smith, one of the methods was to..." Also the "Arguments against" section needs sources as well. — Khoikhoi 01:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on second thought, there should definately not be pictures. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox, i.e., a place for propaganda or advocacy. Look what a user tried to add at the top of the PKK article (eh, it appears to be deleted...). Anyways, we shouldn't sway the reader to one point of view or the other. Upon thinking of what I just said, perhaps the title should be changed... — Khoikhoi 01:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Garnet the way you try to mask such a blatant massacre is disgusting. It's obvious that you don't give a crap about the article being NPOV, you're just trying to hide another Turkish genocide from public view, and from my part there's not much of a point trying to reason with you. I have already provided some sources and I'll find more. For the time being you should be looking for some credible sources which can be used as counter-arguments, i.e. that this was not a genocide but something else. Until you succeed in doing so, you don't have a point. Then we'll ask for RFC and let non-Greek and non-Turkish editors decide. Miskin 13:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Likewise. This is why I'm suggesting a RFC. Miskin 16:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Then go for it. -- A.Garnet 18:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide. I know of no work in English focusing on it. But numerous scholars have studied the Armenian genocide and since the 1960s it has become particularly well publicized... Perhaps general appreciation of this genocide [Armenian] is now second only to that of the Jews... To this day, Turkey absolutely denies that her past governments committed any genocide or mass murder. In this she is aided by the silence of those nations whose archives amply document it. Among them is the United States, which, despite the official contemporary reports of its ambassador and consular officials, now adamantly refuses to recognize this clear genocide. Turkey is a member of NATO, was deemed essential for defense of the southern tier against Soviet aggression during the Cold War, and has since that time been deemed an important Western friend in a hostile and volatile region..." R. J. Rummel, Death by government.
R. J. Rummel has a table entitled Turkey's Armenian and Greek Genocide in which he states:
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap": "According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
"They were held to concentration camps and amongst the survivors was the well known writer Elias Venezis, who later described the situation in his work the Number 31328 (Το Νούμερο 31328)."From what I know Venezis was not a pontian- he was from the aegean coast of Minor Asia.-- Greece666 23:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article Mithridates VI of Pontus, the history of Pontus started out by another genocide, that of the Romans by Greeks in the first century B.C. According to the same article, 100,000 Romans living in Anatolia was massacred by Mithridates VI, the Pontus Greek king. Although the word "massacre" was used in that article, instead of "genocide", I think the term "genocide" is no less fitting for this incident than the Pontian Greek Genocide. The numbers are in the same ballpark. The goal was the same, ethnic cleansing of the Romans by the Greeks from Anatolia. When we do a google search for Pontian Genocide, perhaps we should be more careful. There is another Pontian Genocide. This time the perpetrators were Greek. I also suggest that racist comments about how Turks are likely to commit the Pontian genocide, because they committed the Armenian Genocide, should be avoided because we have a record of Greeks committing a similar scale genocide against the Romans in history. Sure, it was almost 2000 years earlier but it was a genocide regardless. --- Vikiyazar 15:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
If this subject is so close to Greek hearts, how come there is no article on it in the Greek wikipedia? Η γενοκτονία των Ποντίων, right? It's a blank page. There's just a dry statement on the page on Pontians that they are commemorated every 19 May. It's not serious. In politeness. -- Cretanforever
After giving it some thought, I think I've finally come up with an idea for making the 1st paragraph NPOV:
The Pontian Greek Genocide is a term mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
or:
The term Pontian Greek Genocide is mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
What do you guys think? — Khoikhoi 06:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The Pontian Genocide is _not_ a term used only by Greeks. There are few english sources that treat this topic, but the ones that do use invariably "genocide" (cited above). A. Garnet's argument is that we don't have the right to use the term genocide because it's underdocumented. He's completely ignoring the sources I provided and continues to claim that only Greeks call it a 'genocide'. Furthermore he's inaware of the fact that "genocide" besides a legal term, is also a term with a dictionary definition. I'm not aware of a wikipedia policy which forbids the use of term "genocide" unless it's legally recognised by all international organisations. Therefore A. Garnet's claims would fall under "original policy". I don't have too much time to deal with this topic on my own, but I'm in agreement to seek RFC or mediation. Miskin 13:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap":
"According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
I'm citing directly for the book, you're citing from memory. But of course, "you cannot waste your time and energy on these arguments". Like I said, the author claims that the Greek genocide was not as large-scale as the Armenian, he never denies the figures of 350,000 deads nor he questions the act of "genocide". Unless you have a new definition of genocide which means "the _total_ elimination of a certain ethnic or religious group", those massacres remain a genocide. Oh but I forgot that by the Turkish definition of the term there's never been a genocide in Turkey. 5% of the 2,000,000 strong Armenian population of Turkey was alive in 1922, therefore there's no such thing as Armenian Genocide right? Miskin 14:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do you point me to something I just quoted? Miskin 14:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the Axis genocides of WW2? Should we also categorise them as "WW2" casualties? Miskin 14:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
So let us enumerate how many genocides found in wikipedia alone does Turkey, and apparently Turkish people deny:
Coincidence or pattern? Miskin 14:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Alf asked me to look at this, and I'm slightly confused. If people want me to get involved can they state below their preferred title of the article and use sources to back up its use per WP:NAME. - FrancisTyers 15:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Much like Ottoman Armenian casualties. Could encompass pontians, Greeks from Izmir etc. -- A.Garnet 21:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Make discussion here. - FrancisTyers 15:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
From the article genocide: "Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Isn't the general definition of genocide another factor to take into account? Miskin 16:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources for the others? - FrancisTyers 16:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Could we get some more sources please. I've dropped the unpopular ones. - FrancisTyers 17:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, some corrections. Yes, there is no monograph devoted entirely to the Pontian Genocide written by a non-Greek author. However, recent publications tend to discuss it in context with the Armenian and other genocides. I could add reference from German, French etc. sources - but perhaps you'll judge that as "sentences here and there".
The fact that only Greeks seem to write about the topic is because international research is just starting to develop. Another thing to keep in mind is that many (educated) people don't even know who "Pontians" are - this is slowly going to change, cf. books like Thea Halo's "Not Even my Name" or movies like Yesim Ustaoglu's "Waiting for the clouds" (a Turkish production which talks about the persecution of Pontian Greeks).
As a start, I've added one source (in German), a congress volume edited by Tessa Hofmann on the persecution and planned mass extermination of members of Christian minorities in the late Ottoman Empire - with a section on the Pontian Genocide. The term "genocide" is explicitly used in the context with Pontians, as for example by the editor herself on p. 7. I'll try to find some English or French language references too. --
Simela 00:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how Garnet still goes on about "no-one uses the term genocide except Greeks". Does this guy even read what we post for him? Are R. J. Rummel, the state of New Jersey and all the people mentioned by Simela Greeks? Miskin 09:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
For similar reasons I'd like to delete the last sentence in the passage "Arguments against," which says: "The fact that the events took place at a time when a well-organized Greek Army was invading a geographically contiguous land, not populated by a majority of Greeks except for two pockets (Smyrna and Pontus), complicates the picture." This simply is not true. The events which we are talking about started in 1916 (with singular episodes even before that), way before the Greek army arrived on the scene.-- Simela 03:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The arguments against section doesn't really have any arguments against the genocide, is it supposed to? As such, I think it should be renamed, or changed to include any arguments against the genocide, if they exist. I have no knowledge of this stuff, I'm just cleaning up the prose. -- Awiseman 07:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way keep singing that "original research" song. Everybody has seed and accepted the sources except yourself, I bet this will be settled by ArbCom and you'll be still going on about how it's "unsourced" and original research and "based on one sentece". Miskin 13:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The section 'Arguments against' is ironically the only Original Research about this article. Anyone who has basic historical knowledge knows that the Greco-Turkish war started after the genocides of Armenia and Pontus. Unless someone provides a source for possible "arguments against", please don't restore such idiotic claims which contradict every existing historical record on the Greco-Turkish war. Miskin 13:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
If Elias Venezis (Mellos) is put forth as a reference, since his novellized account covers the period after September 1922, the section "Arguments against" remains valid as a counterweight to that reference. If Anyone who has basic historical knowledge knows that the Greco-Turkish war started after the genocides of Armenia and Pontus, Elias Venezis has no place here. That reference should be erased. If the basis for his inclusion as a reference is "Look! There were Labour Battalions between 1916-1919, and there were Labour Battalions in end 1922 and 1923 and Elias wrote about the second ones, then he should be used as a reference in a rather sparing manner, stressing it is an indirect and by-extension type of reference. And then the issue of whose extension it is can be discussed in length. Cretanforever
What's that photo? The caption on here says it's of Elaziq, which is in eastern Turkey. What does the Greek on the photo say? -- Awiseman 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Far from being neutral, mixing two different event (the general policy against the Greeks and what happened in Pontus), the subsequent dates, the ranges of casulties etc., this article should have been first worked before being created. Also, the title..., I don't have alternatives that I can think of, the reason being that this event is called by various names. I could work on this article, but from its current shape it should probably totally be rewritten. Fad (ix) 00:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I wanna ask a question. How many greeks were there in pontian region just before the "Pontian Greek Genocide"? -- Doluca 19:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for deletion of a large piece of the article about "general interest". It was the description of various statistics based on google search. This in 100% original research, which analyses certain facts and draws specific conclusions, which is inadmissible in wikipedia ( WP:NOR). If there is a similar analysis published in reputable publications, please quote it. Mukadderat 22:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I paste the deleted paragraph below. "The 100% original research which analyses certain facts and draws specific conclusions", amounts to observing that the issue treated by this article is not visible in the Google Trends. At that count, "the sky is blue" becomes original research, "the sea is wavy" becomes original research, "the world is round" becomes original research. Let's close shop! :)
"References to the issue have been made at different times by several Greek politicians of various levels. Taken as a tool for providing insights into general interest, Google Trends for several possible keyword combinations indicate that, Turkey on country basis, and Turkish among languages occupy prominent places for the term Pontus. The word is generally used in a context of tourism in Turkey and Pontus or Pontos are also common male names in some countries. Trends also indicate an interest in North America for Pontic. The terms Pontian Genocide or Pontian Greek Genocide did not generate significant search volumes since 2004 anywhere, nor is Greece or the Greek language seen in the lead for any of the possible terms. (For comparison purposes, the term " Armenian Genocide" generates notable search volumes strictly restricted to the period March-April-May each year since 2004 with the lead talen by Armenia, Lebanon and Turkey respectively, for understable reasons, and these are followed by a number of Californian communities centered around Glendale, Irvine, Los Angeles etc.) [1]"
The publication that is the base of the deleted section is called Google Trends. The details are as follows:
as well as variants within. I have put these details in the references section. Cretanforever
Sorry, I read your message only today! Google Trends is a tool that provides insights into general interest (that's how they define themselves). It's not a perfect tool and its information content should be taken with a lot of care and cautiousness (exactly like the wikipedia:), and still more so if one is seeking means for indication or for measurement.
For your question, if someone declares Britney Spears to be a star, and if, when one looked her up in the Google Trends, one had remarked that no significant google search volume had been generated for her, not many people had googled her, was curious about her, cared about her; one could then put quite reasonable question marks about her star status.
Of course, a lot of different dynamics may become pertinent in a google search. Another example is Inanna, the Sumerian goddess :) The term Inanna is sought after the most in Sweden [15], because there is a Swedish electronic music group of that name, popular mainly in that country. Sweden is followed by the United States, Australia, Turkey and the Netherlands on country basis (same link). Swedish, Dutch, Turkish and English are also the primary languages in which google searches on Inanna were made. [16]. And what is interesting is that searches on Inanna surged in the second half of 2005. There was a rock opera of that name by an American composer named John Crater [17] but it was composed in 2003, and was not really a huge hit. Therefore, one may wonder why the other countries figure in the results (apart from Sweden)? It becomes really interesting when one looks at the primary cities where an explosion of interest toward Inanna, perhaps the Sumerian goddess or perhaps someone else, was noticeable:) San Fransisco comes first!!! Followed by New York, Amsterdam etc. [18]. It is really interesting to ask how many times she must have been googled (perhaps by only a few IP's) to generate such search volumes? There is another catch about google, but let me keep to that much explanation for the moment. Regards. :)
I think the current title has gone on long enough. There are far few sources which refer to genocide, at least any credible non-partisan ones. Do people agree to this title? -- A.Garnet 09:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The citations that are asked, concerning the first 2 cases, can be found in many of the external links along with the links in the references' section. about the 3rd requested citation... i have no idea why it was added... (perhaps to counter-balance the first two?). anyway, in USSR-, Stalin-, etc related articles someone can find all the info he wants. -- Hectorian 11:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the Pontian Greek Genocide may be also recognized by Florida [19] and Massachusetts [20]. -- Tēlex 12:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
From: xxxxxxxx@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:55 PM To: Governor Jeb Bush Subject: Pontian Greek Genocide claims
Sir,
I am writing you from İzmir, Turkey.
My question relates to the issue of the Pontian Greek Genocide alleged to have taken place, according to a number of Greek authors, between 1914-1922, although there are also Greek sources such as the journalist Iakobos Pretenteris and researcher Dr. Georgios Nakracas who believe that nothing of a genocidal nature occurred. American historian Mark Mazower also puts forth observations in a similar vein. ( http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html)
I see that, in the wikipedia article on the Pontian Greek Genocide( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontian_Greek_Genocide), Florida is named as one of the U.S. states that have officially recognized the historical existence of a genocide in this case. Although, the reference shown for the recognition seems to consist of a draft proposal by a senator.
I would like to ask if there is such recognition by the State of Florida. The issue is sensitive through a number of viewpoints, and would inevitably implicate, even when not specifically named as in the Florida House of Representatives text that is on the wikipedia page, the Turkish nation as a whole. I do believe that genocide allegations are serious matters and the presentation of this particular issue, as far as I could judge, lacks the seriousness and the unanimity required. As regards the first, one "Turkish Prime Minister" named in Greek sources has not been recorded by history, he simply never existed. The Turkish Prime Minister in 1909 (that would be, the Ottoman Grand Vizier) was not named as such. Creating fictitious prime ministers for neighboring countries is not the best way for Greece for being taken seriously.
Could your office please confirm me if there is a recognition by the State of Florida or not?
Respectfully yours
From:Garrastazu, Tony <Tony.Garrastazu@myflorida.com> Mon, Jul 24, 2006 at 7:58 PM To: xxxxxxxx@gmail.com Cc: "Mohrland, Meghan" <Meghan.Mohrland@myflorida.com>, "Pilver, Michael" <Michael.Pilver@myflorida.com>
Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx:
Thank you for writing Governor Bush regarding the Pontic Greek populations that resided in the Pontus region of the Ottoman Empire. Regarding the issue of Genocide, the State of Florida, as a State within the Union, does not make nor promote its own foreign policy. The question of genocide, its definition and labeling is strictly a matter for the U.S. Federal Government in general and the U.S. State Department in particular.
After reviewing the links provided in your email, it appears that State Representative Gus Bilirakis of the Florida House of Representatives (via House Resolution 9161) and Florida State Senator (via Senate Resolution 2742) Mike Haridopolos placed a ceremonial non-binding resolution on this issue during the 2005 legislative session.
You can visit http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=17788& to see a copy of the resolution. You can also visit the Florida House of Representatives website at http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/
Thank you, Tony Garrastazu
can someone explain who s.ker pasha is? Even the citated artıcle does not mentıon such a name. Also the citated artıcle says Sefker Pasha was the Turkish prime minister (I guess it means Ottoman!!!!) but as far as I remember Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha was the prime minister at that time. -- Hattusili 05:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is a mess. The title is still POV, the 10% of it that is relevant (the intro and the first paragraph) contain no verifiable sources. I have made it abundantly clear before, there are no non-paritsan monographs dedicated to this event, no encylopedic articles, no journals articles - this article cannot be anything other than totally disputed. -- A.Garnet 11:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
There is an overkill of tags accompanying this article. I have to remove at least one. I am not sure what you mean by 'non-partisan'. There are testimonials, there are historians who wrote about these events in Greek. Do we assume that there is a conspiracy between them? If so, what a conspiracy, it sure beats the Da Vinci Code! I agree that a POV element may accompany such writings, but the underlying facts cannot be disputed. Your vehemence (on this question only) reminds me of some people who simply refuse to include anything about the Armenian genocide in the Turkey article. We cannot erase what happened in the past, but also we should treat it with proportionality and we should not use events from the past to creat unbalanced articles in the present. Politis 14:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Change of title? As pointed out, the genocide is recognised as an official commemoration day in Greece. If you think that the Greek state, people, survivors and others are lying, then I suggest you back up such a belief; it must be the greatest conspiracy ever if a state and its people are faking genocide... But the vehement reaction is not just a cause to LOL, but it deserves to be registered by historiographers. The Pontus used to be - within living memory - a thriving Greek region. It was wiped out, thousands were murdered, the buildings were distroyed, thousands fled to Georgia and Russia and suffered further pogroms under Stalin and then in the 1990s. There are very few survivors in the Pontus and a documentary was made. What dont you believe? Politis 12:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't mind the title used for the article at trwiki >> Pontus Genocide Allegations, but if all tags but one are still going to be hanging there, then there's no point in it. -- Telex 14:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Garnet, please don't misunderstand humor for 'throwing rhetoric around'. I really thought 'semi-caust' was a nice sense of black humor. My wife's grandfather was killed in Smyrna, so kindly treat the subject with the respect such loss of life deserves. I agree that the third sources are not equivalent to the ones about the Armenian genocide, but that does not make them moot. On the other hand, as Telex pointed out, there are no third sources (at all) on the non-genocide position. :NikoSilver: 20:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, simply because there is little academic coverage of the issue outside of Greece, does not mean we take Greece's word for it. There are infact sources which mention the plight of Pontians and Ottoman Greeks, two that have been mentioned already in these discussion pages:
Also Nikos, i don't see what Smyrna has to do with this article, which is about Pontians, and why you accuse me of disrespect, when i proposed a title (Ottoman Greek Casualties) which could include casualties of both Greeks in Smyrna, and Pontian Greeks. -- A.Garnet 11:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Your selective quoting of the first source is one more reason. The quote continues:
Meaning: There were not as many Pontian Greeks deported, as Armenians. That signifies that the method of genocide could be different (i.e. Armenians' deportation to desert and series of masacres rather than whatever other). The paragraph does not aim to disprove the Pontian Greek Genocide, it rather aims to prove the Armenian one.
I suppose the above means there was no Armenian genocide either! It was just a series of little 'massacres', according to your reasoning! :NikoSilver: 12:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
And Jesus! Talking about selective quoting, did you by any chance read the rest of the text in the page of your 'Killing Trap' quote? "...today I sent off squads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight..." Garnet? What is wrong with you? :NikoSilver: 12:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, I give you that, although I'd like to cross check the numbers cited below. Now, let's please tone down and discuss:
Of the documents referenced as sources for the claim of official recognition of genocide by U.S. States, only the one from New Jersey seems to have any claim to such a status. The one called "South Carolina recognition" has print of about 2 pixels high, not exactly legible, and yet I'm pretty certain none of the words there is "genocide". For those for Florida and Massachusetts there is no indication of any kind that the resolutions were accepted, at best that they were introduced. If they had been accepted, no doubt there would have been people eager to introduce clearly officially accepted versions as evidence, and capable of doing so. My conclusion is that, for serving as sources for the claims of recognition, these are bogus. -- Lambiam Talk 02:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
If I am correct, A.Garnet is disputing the term 'genocide' not the historical fact that thousands of Pontian Greeks were massacred. But, can we agree that, (1) there existed a Greek based civilisation in the Pontus for over 2,000 years. (2) In 1922, it suddenly vanished and most of the Pontian Greek Orthodox, Greek-speaking people disappeared and (3) there was much bloodshed. If so, how do we call such an event? The Greeks call it genocide; that is the reason it exists as an article. Politis 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, this title issue is much more serious than some people think.. It is really not fair to accuse a nation of genocide just on a whim.. It is a serious allegation that must be backed-up by serious academic research. The definition of the United Nations and the international law must be taken into account. Pls let's not use Wikipedia to fuel ethnic hatred. The article still doesn't have even one impartial source or citation. Pls reply... If not we can easily witness a proliferation of 'genocide' sites on Wikipedia, claiming that every nation in this world has committed genocide against each other...
Turkish and Greeks are very close, focusing on the sad moments of our history and calling each other baby-killers, child-killers is not going to get anywhere. Turks and Greeks don't need to prove something to each other, so let's calm down people... Baristarim 11:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Look dude.. Pls chill.. I am just pointing out the fact that genocide is a serious allegation, it has to be backed by serious academic research.. Pls, are you telling me that the recognition by Greece gives it more credibility?? If Turkey adopts a resolution saying that there was a Turkish Genocide perpetrated by Greeks, would that make it true?? Come on dude, u know politics.. 'And you are asking others to prove a negative.. How can someone possibly prove that 350,000 didn't die?? You have to prove that THEY DID DIE..' Also pls assume that others are acting in good faith..
But there is a more serious issue, this article LACKS gravely the kind of proof that would be needed to prove without a reasonable doubt that this article needs to be titled 'Genocide'. Baristarim 18:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok.. I didn't mean any disrespect.. I am sorry if u took it that way.. Look, if 350,000 people died, there would have to be so much more evidence than this.. Mass graves, photos, many more accounts by people who survived it etc to justify that number.. And the evidence present would only support the title 'massacres', not 'genocide', until there is much more overwhelming evidence.. Even Cyprus doesn't recognize this as a genocide!! I read the references and everything. It is not enough to label these as genocide man, seriously.. After the Armenian Genocide there was at least some trials to try those responsible, in this case nobody even tried to propose a trial.. And the only country to this day that has approved this as genocide is Greece, that's not impartial and you know it... Some American states? Those states pass many resolutions of the kind, Mississippi had a law saying that it was OK to kill a Mormon, until the abrogation of the law in the 70s. All I am saying is that this is really not helping this article, pls let's not use Wikipedia as a sandbox.. It is really not fair on anyone.. This article is a mess, it really looks like it was never thought out and planned... BTW, can I have a reply for the post below? Seriously, if you got impartial and credible sources, cite them to support these allegations... Otherwise let's ask for arbitration and edit-protect on all these issues... Baristarim 20:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with the survivors being Greeks. First of all, there has to be a PROOF confirming the 350,000 number, the article has no citations whatsoever to any impartial source on the specific allegations it makes. Light Death, Turkish casualties being 15,000? Where is the PROOF?? You have not been able to find any citations for months now, this is getting ridiculous.. I only pity you for harboring so much anger.. As for the accounts of the diplomats, they are nowhere close to proving the extent of the allegations leveled. What, they travelled around all around war-torn Anatolia that had no railroads looking for what happenned to the Greek population? And as for their conversation with other Turkish officials and what they might have heard from them, I got only one thing to say: FYI I happen to be a practicing Intl lawyer, and in law this kind of proof is called HEARSAY, they are not valid in a court of law as absolute proofs, they are called preuves relatives, since they can only confirm such person told them so, and not that such an event has taken place. And for you to prove that it was a genocide and not a massacre, you have to scientifically prove the existence of a co-ordinated attempt to wipe-out a nation, major parts of it, seperate them in whole from their territory for eternity etc.. There is NO PROOF of such a command structure, individual events provided don't prove this as genocide.. I know that some people are trying to jump on the genocide bandwagon since they have realized that how much pressure it can put on a country.. And as such I propose the name 'Pontus Greek Massacres'. As for the photos, there are thousand of photos of the Armenian Genocide, considering that they happenned to be at the same time, I guess there would be AT LEAST SOME photos to back up the allegation that 350 thousand Ponti were killed. Baristarim 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, what part of it is hard to understand?? THE PERSON MAKING A CLAIM HAS TO PROVE IT, if you say that 350,000 Greeks were killed, it is up to you to prove it, not for me to disprove it.. Haven't u had ANY SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION??? You make the claim, you prove it. Nobody is under no obligation to prove that 350,000 Greeks DIDN'T die... If you continue to sing the same tune, you will have confirmed yourself as someone who doesn't understand how the scientific process works, haven't you ever heard of the SCIENTIFIC METHOD??? You say something, you prove it... You make the claim that 350,000 people died, you have the obligation to prove that claim to others.. You sound like people who say 'prove that God doesn't exist' while replying to people who question their faiths!!! And apparently you do have anger for the Turks, if it is not towards the Turks, it must be some personal psychological issue then.. There can be no other logical explanation... NO PHOTOS, NO ACADEMIC RESEARCH UNDERTAKEN BY ANY WESTERN UNIVERSITY!! THIS THING IS AN UTTER JOKE. Baristarim 23:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Nobody has the obligation to disprove the genocide claim, you have to prove it... If you want, have a look at the transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials.. I PERSONALLY prepared a sub-thesis on it in Law School, GENOCIDE CLAIMS ARE SERIOUS CLAIMS THAT NEED TO BE BACKED-UP WITH SOLID, HARD-AS-A-ROCK, UNCONTESTABLE PROOFS.. Three web-sites with dodgy web-designs, HEARSAY from a bunch of diplomats and whipped-up and out-dated Nationalistic rhetoric is not ENOUGH, DO YOU HAVE A 20 FOR IQ or what???????? What part of it don't you understand?????????? Baristarim 23:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I did some WP:PA, eh? I am such a badboy, aren't I?? Well, I must be punished then!!! You are a naughty boy Baris, you are a badboy Baris, pls somebody spank me!!! I would rather be doing WP:PA rather than trying to fuel ethnic hatred on some obscure corner of the net, believe me. Well, you still haven't been able to respond to my post, so I will accept that as your admission that you are unable to face the truth and/or not come up with an adequate response in a scientific manner... That's alright, because I knew that u wouldn't be able to do so... I have read everything that you have mentioned, one of the references you have mentioned doesn't even mention this issue!!! Have you read what I wrote?? Pls stop the propagation of ethnic hatred, and please don't manipulate Wikipedia to satisfy your own ego.. It is really lame, believe me. Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody paste some proof pls for:
The numbers of Turkish and Greek casualties (currently it is 350000 for Greeks, and 15000 Turks), for someone reason these numbers seem not to emanate from serious academic proof but from the transcripts of some high-school debate club...
And for the claim that 'were deported to RUSSIA', in the beginning of the article it is claimed they escaped to Russia, that's a good claim and I am sure there is proof for this out there.. But DEPORTED?? There was a population exchange agreement, why the hell would they be deported to Russia?
And 'Light Death', see below...
Pls reply...
Regards... Baristarim 17:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
By the way, International Association of Genocide Scholars doesn't mention EVEN ONE WORD about this, you must be really having a laugh, aren't you??? Baristarim 23:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I was also wondering where the Turkish casualties number came from... For Russia issue, I made the appropriate change... Ok, now I see where the number 353,000 comes from. ON THE OTHER HAND, I fail to see any PROOF in the web-sites you have mentioned. Just because someone repeats something that doesn't make it a proof.. None of these sites have PROOF, no photos, no VERIFIED EYE-witness accounts to overwhelm the reader to convince him that THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND GREEKS WERE KILLED.. Most of the diplomats' accounts depend on HEARSAY, it cannot prove anything.. The quote from the German Chancellor is a great example, what, he was in Anatolia at the time???? Some guy told a German diplomat so and so, he telegraphed so and so, and he said so and so... THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFICALLY-ADMISSIBLE PROOF!! These sites claim to have hundreds of photos, funny that they DON'T show ANY... The evidence you have presented doesn't even prove that massacres even occured, let alone be able to classify them as genocide, what part of this do you fail to understand??? There were 20 million people living in the Ottoman Empire, many foreigners included, if there was such a mass organization that managed to kill so many people, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE MUCH MORE PROOF, SOLID, CONCRETE PROOF, NOT HEARSAY, REAL DAMN PROOF... Show me Western newspaper entries from correspondents in the Ottoman Empire at the time!! There are many for the Armenian Genocide.. Where the hell are they??? You WANT TO BELIEVE that there is such proof, but it's time to wake up and smell the roses, THERE IS NONE.. This is really sad, I just don't understand why you have so much hate and anger towards Turkish people. It is really sad you know... Baristarim 23:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I still can't see any proof about the 'Light Death' except bland statements, if someone can't back this up, I will remove it, or at least add 'according to unverifiable sources, it has been alleged that'... Seriously dude, blaming a nation of committing genocide ain't no joke, when you say something you should have the balls to back it up, if not, don't say it... Baristarim 23:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.. And you know it.. I was trying to point out that the evidence put forward is so flimsy that it can barely support the massacre claims... If there is evidence out there, bring it!!! Where the hell are the photos??? I am willing to accept any suggestion as long as it can be substantiated. But I am not stupid enough to lay down and accept the words of anyone without seeing scientific proof. Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well again, here we go... U don't know me, so you cannot say 'i am not surpised so and so'. Treating every Turk that asks for more proof of these allegations as Holocaust-deniers, clearly shows your stereotypical visions of Turks and doesn't do much to help your credibility. I am personally offended by your implication that just because I ask you to substantiate these claims, I must be a Holocaust-denier (don't say that you didn't imply that, you did and YOU KNOW IT). This issue has nothing to do with the Armenian genocide neither the Holocaust. Don't try to win sympathy from others by pretending that you were the victims of a genocide. You LOST the war fair and square. Maybe you should try accepting that (huh?). Greeks lost Istanbul and Izmir fair and square, how about trying to admit that for a change??? (huh?) And the only state that recognizes the Pontic 'Genocide' is Greece, even Cyprus doesn't recognize it (but they recognize the Armenian Genocide, funny, eh??). So I am guessing from your reasoning that you are recognizing TRNC because, like this 'genocide', only one country recognizes it.. Good...
Nobody has asked you to like Kemal, he never pretended to be the leader of the Greek nation, and let's face it, he was much more successful on all fronts than jokers like Venizelos, or any Greek leader, for that matter...
Furthermore, the fact that there are NO citations for many of the allegations is different than saying that proofs presented can't prove that it was a genocide. FYI, again, I am an intl. lawyer by training, and I know what I am saying when I say that the sources and proofs presented CANNOT back up the claim that this was a genocide... If this truly happenned, I want to understand, but the proofs that are being put forward are not enough to support the charges levelled, and you KNOW IT.. If I am presented with convincing proof and I see that impartial states have recognized this as Genocide, I give you my WORD that I will recognize it..
Stop demagoging as well.. I said I SAW where the number comes from, I didn't say that it is enough proof that the claims of some hate-filled web-site that calls Turks baby-killers that so many Greeks were killed.. As you wish, you can avoid responding to my specific comments.. ( Personal attack removed) Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to take this all the way up to arbitration if the unscientific and hate-oriented version of the title of the article is not changed. I call on all concerned Wikipedians to join the debate, they can see for themselves.. R U ready for the ride Hector?? Baristarim 11:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the title of the article should be changed
I contest the word 'Genocide' and the inclusion of the latter in the title for the following reasons:
From the article genocide: "Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
1- Title of an article speaks a lot for itself, inclusion of the word genocide in the title, implicitly states that the article will be able to provide enough proof of this claim.. And if it fails to do so, the word Genocide should only be included in the body of the article,
2- Claim of Genocide is an extremely serious allegation to make, one that needs to be backed up by serious and constant academic research and solid proofs.
3- And that there is a clear line seperating 'Genocide from 'Massacre', in that for a Genocide to have taken place, there has to be the proof that there was a clear commanding structure and a chain of command that expressly strived to commit the acts that would be described as 'Genocide' (see above)...
4- For more information regarding the line that seperates between Genocide from Massacre, pls see the Nuremberg trial transcripts. Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide have been defined as such not on the massacres themselves, but also by proving that there existed such a command structure that effectively and continously strived to commit the acts that constitute a Genocide... Extensive data is available on both of these events, and the legal framework for Genocide acceptance has been clearly established, as the minutes of ICJ trials show.
5- As such, I claim that the article fails to provide such credible proof. In other words, the article fails to deliver the sort of scientific, academic, universal and solid proof that would be neccessary to verify the claim of a Genocide.
6- Moreover, I hold that these claims are being used to only fuel ethnic-hatred:
6.1- The only sovereign country to have recognized this as Genocide is Greece itself, and that only 9 years ago, the choice of day to commemerate these events is also suspect: May 19th, a national holiday in Turkey since the 1920s.
6.2- Even Cyprus, a country that is extremely close to Greece politically as much it is far from Turkey has not recognized this as genocide.
7- In the article itself, there is not enough proof to substantiate any of these claims:
7.1- The article makes many serious allegations for which citations have been missing for months. Ex. Light Death,
7.2- An overwhelming majority (app. 95 percent) of articles on this subject found on the net have been written either by Greeks or published in Greek web-sites,
7.3- References cited in the article are either completely biased, have no-connection to the subject whatsoever, or have questionable backgrounds. Ex. International Association of Genocide Scholars, that is cited in the article has no link in its website whatsoever concerning this issue. The page devoted to this issue by the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide studies is highly-biased, it claims to have hundreds of photos in its possesion, but none are published, the tone of the writings are clearly racist and not-scientific, and most importantly, has no proof delivered that has been derived using the Scientific Method, none of the allegations are substantiated, no interviews with impartial researchers and none of the claims are signed (by anyone whatsoever, let alone Professors of international standing)
7.4- The other 'proofs' are accounts by a handful of foreign diplomats stationed in the Ottoman Empire. Half of them are considered as HEARSAY, accounts of the stories told by other people, and the accounts of the remaining two or three are not enough to substantiate the claim that 350,000 people were systematically killed.
7.5- Most importantly, there is no link, source, proof or whatsoever to substantiate the claim that the Ottoman and Turkish adminstrations had the will, the command structure and the continuity and generalization of acts to commit a Genocide against the Pontus Greeks.
8- Finally, after 90 years of alleged events taking place and the claim of such a high death-toll, there are absolutely NO photos, no mass-graves, not enough corroborated eye-witness stories that would have resulted from the massacre of such a great number of people, even though there are many for the Armenian Genocide that took place at approximately the same time in geographically close lands.
9- And thus, the 'Genocide' title cannot be substantiated because of a lack of sources, and as such it makes this article on Wikipedia 'original research', which is contrary to the policy of Wikipedia.
10- As such, I propose that the title of the article should be changed to 'Pontic Greek Massacres' to conform with the spirit and philosophy of Wikipedia, since, in my opinion, this article was given this name only with the purpose of igniting ethnic-hatred. Baristarim 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I was just looking through the section of Pontian Greek Genocide of the web-site of the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide.. Now can people please stop citing that non-sense??? First of all, none of the claims are signed by researchers (a must for all academic research), and I also just realized that the only person that has signed this page is Panayiotis Diamadis, hmmm... that's kinda funny... Look people, can you tell me with a straight face and like a man that this is impartial?? There is no list of academicians working on the research unit of Pontian Greek Genocide of this institute.. It doesn't look like it is presenting the results of a serious search, but the thesis of one individual that has been given a page on this website... I call on everyone to have a second look at the section of this web site about the Pontian Greek Genocide and tell me how exactly it would be considered reliable... Pls don't cite verifiablity, not truth.. Have a second look at that policy, it also demands that the sources have to be reliable... The tone of the writings are not academic and they are, to say the least, not serious, and at worst, racist.. Pls have some common sense...Regards... Baristarim 17:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to log out, I am on vacation, but when I get back to France I am removing that source from this article and from the articles where it is cited.. If u don't want this to happen pls say according to Panayiotis Diamadis of the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide has claimed that.. On second thoughts that's what I will put since it is the TRUTH.. Truth will set you free, right?? take care y'all!! Baristarim 17:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
There are the cases of the Assyrian genocide, Bosnian Genocide, Burundi genocide, Rwandan Genocide, that have never been recognised by any country, but such articles exist in Wikipedia. On the other hand, there are the cases of the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide that have not been recognised by all the countries in the world (the word 'holocaust', if not synonymous, is stronger in meaning than the word 'genocide'), but articles concerning them also exist here. The Pontian Greek Genocide has been recognised by a country ( Greece), several American and one Australian state. Lets face it, there is no real reason to change the title. Having in mind that the article about the 'Armenian Genocide' has been proposed twice (!!!) for deletion, i am not surprised of attempts to at least rename this article... -- Hectorian 14:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Those who question the credibility of the AIHGS should take a look at the list of its Directors and Associates at http://www.aihgs.com/images/InfoBooklet2003.pdf. I doubt they would allow anyone to use the Institute to promote his or her agenda without credibility and sufficient historical evidence? But let's assume that the individual mentioned above (Panayiotis Damantis)is biased. What about R. J. Rummel who, based on his research, states that 347,000 Greeks died as a result of atrocities in Turkey at that time? Was he Greek too? Was he biased too? One only has to take a look at the Citations, Bibliography, and References that were recently added and will see that a good number of the authors were/are not Greek. Some of the books and documents are rare or out of print, but with a little persistance one should be able to locate them.
This article is not about ethnic hatred or racism as one mentions above. It is about ackowledging a Genocide that took place approximately 90 or so years ago. If such events are not acknowledged, tought, and those responsible brought to justice; dictatorships, and authoritarian regimes, would have no disincentive or fear of repeating them. Cases in point Darfur, Rwanda, etc. Let's also make clear that the perpetrators of this, the Armenian, and Assyrian Genocides involved only the leadership, and a minority of the Turkish military, and population. Both of my parents were born in Turkey and were in their teens during those horrible events. Both cited examples of Turks who at great risk helped and protected many Greeks from sure death. We are greatful to them. Rizos01 03:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
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Can somebody pls back this accusation up?? If not I am going to take it out.. Look people, it is one thing to talk about the past and analyze it, but it is one thing to just fuel ethnic-hatred.. It has been needing a citation for months..
These are serious allegations.. Turkish and Greek people are very close, let's not dwell on the sad moments of our history.. Calling each other child-killers, baby-killers is not going to get anybody anywhere, at least not in Wikipedia.
And let's not forget Wikipedia is not for original research, as was mentioned below... Baristarim 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The correct term is "White Death" or "White Massacres". A citation has been added. The term refers to various forms of atrocities, i.e., boycott, deportations, death by starvation in labor camps, etc.
Rizos01 01:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I think everyone should note that Turkey doesn't deny people died. They deny that it was genocide (the elimination of a ethnic, religious, racial etc group with intent), but more like war casualties. -- Telex 15:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
What about Cyprus? Was it also a "Greek insland in a Turkish sea"? I think Turkish people overestimate the size of their "sea" (whatever that is). Miskin 14:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The "Arguments against" section of the article says:
However, the "Official recognition" section says:
Which one is true? Here is the PDF. To me it doesn't look like a letter, but an offical UN document. Correct me if I'm wrong. — Khoikhoi
Nope, it just says this:
There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,
- Through your internet options, adjust your privacy settings to allow cookies or
- Check your security settings and make sure this site has not been blocked or
- You are probably using a very slow link that may not work well with this application.
Otherwise you have reached this site through unauthorized means.
— Khoikhoi 01:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
pontian genocide
. The above link works for me though. --
Telex 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)The U.N. document referenced in the article starts with the following statement: The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1296 (XLIV) Basically the document implies no endorsement of the statement's contents. It just acknowledges the receipt of the statement from a NGO called International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP). There has never been a vote on the U.N. floor to approve a resolution on this issue. Therefore, the following statement in this Wikipedia article "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." is a gross misstatement. The absence of any follow-up on the alleged Pontian genocide by the U.N. commission on Human Rights since 1998 (8 years) indicates that this issue has not been taken seriously. I propose that the statement "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." be removed from this Wikipedia article. There is no such recognition. --- Vikiyazar 15:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I provide the following sources for further investigation on the issue:
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2004/SR.16, 30 March 2004, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Sixtieth session, Held at the Palais des Nations, Geneva, on Tuesday, 23 March 2004, at 10 a.m., Chairperson: Mr. SMITH (Australia) ( [4]):
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2002/NGO/30, 25 January 2002, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Fifty-eighth session, Item 11 (c) of the provisional agenda, CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE QUESTIONS OF: FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
Written statement* submitted by the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP), a non-governmental organizations in special consultative status ( [5])
Embassy of Greece - Press Office:
So, from the last one, I guess it hasn't been recognised yet, but there are efforts toward that direction... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh my God, how did you come up with such an inflated number? Is there any limit to one's imagination? What is the basis for this number? You just can't manufacture historical facts like that. It is doubtful that 1 million Greeks ever existed in Pontus in any period of history. The article on Pontic Greeks claims that there are more than 2 million Pontic Greeks living in the world today. This number boggles my mind and it can't be true. 1 million Pontian Greeks killed and still 2 million Pontian Greeks living in the World today???? Considering the fact that the entire population of the Ottoman Empire at the turn of the century was 40 million people (including Muslims and Christians) and that Greeks didn't even constitute the majority of the Black Sea population, all these numbers about the Pontian Greeks living in the World today and those that were killed sound utterly fantastic to me.
I am also quite offended that the paragraph that I added to the Pontian Greek Genocide article called "Arguments Against" was deleted by the same user with an IP number of 87.203.236.72 Clearly this person wants to dictate his opinions to Wikipedia by brute force regardless of the truth. I will make one more attempt to reinstate the version by Khoikhoi dated 04:25, 25 May 2006. If the User:87.203.236.72 deletes that version and reinstates his imaginary 1 million number, I refuse to play this silly game. He can have his way. In the meantime, the victim is Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. Let's not allow Wikipedia to be turned into a political battleground. --- Vikiyazar 15:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
For the simple reason that no one but the Greek parliament seems to recognise it as genocide. A more acceptable name is needed for this article. -- A.Garnet 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose to stick with "genocide", this term has an academic basis, whether or not it is recognised by an international organization is irrelevant. Miskin 17:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
What academic basis? something like that I suppose:
"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide. I know of no work in English focusing on it. But numerous scholars have studied the Armenian genocide and since the 1960s it has become particularly well publicized... Perhaps general appreciation of this genocide [Armenian] is now second only to that of the Jews... To this day, Turkey absolutely denies that her past governments committed any genocide or mass murder. In this she is aided by the silence of those nations whose archives amply document it. Among them is the United States, which, despite the official contemporary reports of its ambassador and consular officials, now adamantly refuses to recognize this clear genocide. Turkey is a member of NATO, was deemed essential for defense of the southern tier against Soviet aggression during the Cold War, and has since that time been deemed an important Western friend in a hostile and volatile region..."
R. J. Rummel, Death by government.
This is only an example of how the Pontic genocide is recognised within academic circles. There are of course many more.
Miskin 17:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Since when does wikipedia restrict its article naming policy according to the variety of other encyclopaedias? Unbiased books are as credible as other encyclopaedias, and I can bring up more citations if this one doesn't convince you. Miskin 18:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
However you see that the citations exist, which means that the article will be expanded sooner or later. Do you really believe that credible sources will have any reason to lie about this? It's called genocide, and by the definition of the word that's what it was. I can't understand how someone can be as disrespectful as to not even be willing to admit it. Miskin 19:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok point me to the WP:POLICY which remotely implies such a rule and we'll speak seriously then. Miskin 22:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Didn't I just prove that people who deal with it regard it as a genocide? I want to see a policy which says that "if no english, non-partisan source is not exclusively devoted on a topic, it's not allowed to have an article". Miskin 22:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap":
"According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
No mention of genocide here but emphasis must be given on "as we did with the Armenians".
Miskin 18:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
R. J. Rummel has a table entitled Turkey's Armenian and Greek Genocide in which he states:
Miskin 18:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think one way we can make the article more neutral, particularly in the "Background" section, is instead of presenting the information at 100% absolute facts, we can say "according to John Smith, one of the methods was to..." Also the "Arguments against" section needs sources as well. — Khoikhoi 01:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on second thought, there should definately not be pictures. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox, i.e., a place for propaganda or advocacy. Look what a user tried to add at the top of the PKK article (eh, it appears to be deleted...). Anyways, we shouldn't sway the reader to one point of view or the other. Upon thinking of what I just said, perhaps the title should be changed... — Khoikhoi 01:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Garnet the way you try to mask such a blatant massacre is disgusting. It's obvious that you don't give a crap about the article being NPOV, you're just trying to hide another Turkish genocide from public view, and from my part there's not much of a point trying to reason with you. I have already provided some sources and I'll find more. For the time being you should be looking for some credible sources which can be used as counter-arguments, i.e. that this was not a genocide but something else. Until you succeed in doing so, you don't have a point. Then we'll ask for RFC and let non-Greek and non-Turkish editors decide. Miskin 13:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Likewise. This is why I'm suggesting a RFC. Miskin 16:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Then go for it. -- A.Garnet 18:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide. I know of no work in English focusing on it. But numerous scholars have studied the Armenian genocide and since the 1960s it has become particularly well publicized... Perhaps general appreciation of this genocide [Armenian] is now second only to that of the Jews... To this day, Turkey absolutely denies that her past governments committed any genocide or mass murder. In this she is aided by the silence of those nations whose archives amply document it. Among them is the United States, which, despite the official contemporary reports of its ambassador and consular officials, now adamantly refuses to recognize this clear genocide. Turkey is a member of NATO, was deemed essential for defense of the southern tier against Soviet aggression during the Cold War, and has since that time been deemed an important Western friend in a hostile and volatile region..." R. J. Rummel, Death by government.
R. J. Rummel has a table entitled Turkey's Armenian and Greek Genocide in which he states:
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap": "According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
"They were held to concentration camps and amongst the survivors was the well known writer Elias Venezis, who later described the situation in his work the Number 31328 (Το Νούμερο 31328)."From what I know Venezis was not a pontian- he was from the aegean coast of Minor Asia.-- Greece666 23:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article Mithridates VI of Pontus, the history of Pontus started out by another genocide, that of the Romans by Greeks in the first century B.C. According to the same article, 100,000 Romans living in Anatolia was massacred by Mithridates VI, the Pontus Greek king. Although the word "massacre" was used in that article, instead of "genocide", I think the term "genocide" is no less fitting for this incident than the Pontian Greek Genocide. The numbers are in the same ballpark. The goal was the same, ethnic cleansing of the Romans by the Greeks from Anatolia. When we do a google search for Pontian Genocide, perhaps we should be more careful. There is another Pontian Genocide. This time the perpetrators were Greek. I also suggest that racist comments about how Turks are likely to commit the Pontian genocide, because they committed the Armenian Genocide, should be avoided because we have a record of Greeks committing a similar scale genocide against the Romans in history. Sure, it was almost 2000 years earlier but it was a genocide regardless. --- Vikiyazar 15:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
If this subject is so close to Greek hearts, how come there is no article on it in the Greek wikipedia? Η γενοκτονία των Ποντίων, right? It's a blank page. There's just a dry statement on the page on Pontians that they are commemorated every 19 May. It's not serious. In politeness. -- Cretanforever
After giving it some thought, I think I've finally come up with an idea for making the 1st paragraph NPOV:
The Pontian Greek Genocide is a term mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
or:
The term Pontian Greek Genocide is mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
What do you guys think? — Khoikhoi 06:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The Pontian Genocide is _not_ a term used only by Greeks. There are few english sources that treat this topic, but the ones that do use invariably "genocide" (cited above). A. Garnet's argument is that we don't have the right to use the term genocide because it's underdocumented. He's completely ignoring the sources I provided and continues to claim that only Greeks call it a 'genocide'. Furthermore he's inaware of the fact that "genocide" besides a legal term, is also a term with a dictionary definition. I'm not aware of a wikipedia policy which forbids the use of term "genocide" unless it's legally recognised by all international organisations. Therefore A. Garnet's claims would fall under "original policy". I don't have too much time to deal with this topic on my own, but I'm in agreement to seek RFC or mediation. Miskin 13:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
From Midlarsky's "The killing trap":
"According to the Austrian colsuls at Amisos, Kwiatkowski, in his Novermber 30, 1916, report to the foreign minister Baron Burian: 'On 26 November Rafet Bey told me: 'we must finish off the Greeks as we did with the Armenians...' on 28 November Rafet Bey told me: 'today I sent sqads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight.' I fear for the elimination of the entire Greek population and a repeat of what occurred last year'. Or according to a January 31, 1917, report by Chancellor HOllweb of Austria: 'The indications are that the Turks plan to eliminate the Greek element as enemies of the state, as they did earlier with the Armenians. The strategy implemented by the Turks is of displacing people to the interior without taking measures of their survival by exposing them to deah, hunger, and illness. The abandoned homes are then looted and burnt or destroyed. Whatever was done to the Armenians is being repeated with the Greeks'"
I'm citing directly for the book, you're citing from memory. But of course, "you cannot waste your time and energy on these arguments". Like I said, the author claims that the Greek genocide was not as large-scale as the Armenian, he never denies the figures of 350,000 deads nor he questions the act of "genocide". Unless you have a new definition of genocide which means "the _total_ elimination of a certain ethnic or religious group", those massacres remain a genocide. Oh but I forgot that by the Turkish definition of the term there's never been a genocide in Turkey. 5% of the 2,000,000 strong Armenian population of Turkey was alive in 1922, therefore there's no such thing as Armenian Genocide right? Miskin 14:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do you point me to something I just quoted? Miskin 14:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the Axis genocides of WW2? Should we also categorise them as "WW2" casualties? Miskin 14:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
So let us enumerate how many genocides found in wikipedia alone does Turkey, and apparently Turkish people deny:
Coincidence or pattern? Miskin 14:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Alf asked me to look at this, and I'm slightly confused. If people want me to get involved can they state below their preferred title of the article and use sources to back up its use per WP:NAME. - FrancisTyers 15:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Much like Ottoman Armenian casualties. Could encompass pontians, Greeks from Izmir etc. -- A.Garnet 21:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Make discussion here. - FrancisTyers 15:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
From the article genocide: "Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Isn't the general definition of genocide another factor to take into account? Miskin 16:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources for the others? - FrancisTyers 16:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Could we get some more sources please. I've dropped the unpopular ones. - FrancisTyers 17:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, some corrections. Yes, there is no monograph devoted entirely to the Pontian Genocide written by a non-Greek author. However, recent publications tend to discuss it in context with the Armenian and other genocides. I could add reference from German, French etc. sources - but perhaps you'll judge that as "sentences here and there".
The fact that only Greeks seem to write about the topic is because international research is just starting to develop. Another thing to keep in mind is that many (educated) people don't even know who "Pontians" are - this is slowly going to change, cf. books like Thea Halo's "Not Even my Name" or movies like Yesim Ustaoglu's "Waiting for the clouds" (a Turkish production which talks about the persecution of Pontian Greeks).
As a start, I've added one source (in German), a congress volume edited by Tessa Hofmann on the persecution and planned mass extermination of members of Christian minorities in the late Ottoman Empire - with a section on the Pontian Genocide. The term "genocide" is explicitly used in the context with Pontians, as for example by the editor herself on p. 7. I'll try to find some English or French language references too. --
Simela 00:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how Garnet still goes on about "no-one uses the term genocide except Greeks". Does this guy even read what we post for him? Are R. J. Rummel, the state of New Jersey and all the people mentioned by Simela Greeks? Miskin 09:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
For similar reasons I'd like to delete the last sentence in the passage "Arguments against," which says: "The fact that the events took place at a time when a well-organized Greek Army was invading a geographically contiguous land, not populated by a majority of Greeks except for two pockets (Smyrna and Pontus), complicates the picture." This simply is not true. The events which we are talking about started in 1916 (with singular episodes even before that), way before the Greek army arrived on the scene.-- Simela 03:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The arguments against section doesn't really have any arguments against the genocide, is it supposed to? As such, I think it should be renamed, or changed to include any arguments against the genocide, if they exist. I have no knowledge of this stuff, I'm just cleaning up the prose. -- Awiseman 07:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way keep singing that "original research" song. Everybody has seed and accepted the sources except yourself, I bet this will be settled by ArbCom and you'll be still going on about how it's "unsourced" and original research and "based on one sentece". Miskin 13:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The section 'Arguments against' is ironically the only Original Research about this article. Anyone who has basic historical knowledge knows that the Greco-Turkish war started after the genocides of Armenia and Pontus. Unless someone provides a source for possible "arguments against", please don't restore such idiotic claims which contradict every existing historical record on the Greco-Turkish war. Miskin 13:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
If Elias Venezis (Mellos) is put forth as a reference, since his novellized account covers the period after September 1922, the section "Arguments against" remains valid as a counterweight to that reference. If Anyone who has basic historical knowledge knows that the Greco-Turkish war started after the genocides of Armenia and Pontus, Elias Venezis has no place here. That reference should be erased. If the basis for his inclusion as a reference is "Look! There were Labour Battalions between 1916-1919, and there were Labour Battalions in end 1922 and 1923 and Elias wrote about the second ones, then he should be used as a reference in a rather sparing manner, stressing it is an indirect and by-extension type of reference. And then the issue of whose extension it is can be discussed in length. Cretanforever
What's that photo? The caption on here says it's of Elaziq, which is in eastern Turkey. What does the Greek on the photo say? -- Awiseman 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Far from being neutral, mixing two different event (the general policy against the Greeks and what happened in Pontus), the subsequent dates, the ranges of casulties etc., this article should have been first worked before being created. Also, the title..., I don't have alternatives that I can think of, the reason being that this event is called by various names. I could work on this article, but from its current shape it should probably totally be rewritten. Fad (ix) 00:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I wanna ask a question. How many greeks were there in pontian region just before the "Pontian Greek Genocide"? -- Doluca 19:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for deletion of a large piece of the article about "general interest". It was the description of various statistics based on google search. This in 100% original research, which analyses certain facts and draws specific conclusions, which is inadmissible in wikipedia ( WP:NOR). If there is a similar analysis published in reputable publications, please quote it. Mukadderat 22:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I paste the deleted paragraph below. "The 100% original research which analyses certain facts and draws specific conclusions", amounts to observing that the issue treated by this article is not visible in the Google Trends. At that count, "the sky is blue" becomes original research, "the sea is wavy" becomes original research, "the world is round" becomes original research. Let's close shop! :)
"References to the issue have been made at different times by several Greek politicians of various levels. Taken as a tool for providing insights into general interest, Google Trends for several possible keyword combinations indicate that, Turkey on country basis, and Turkish among languages occupy prominent places for the term Pontus. The word is generally used in a context of tourism in Turkey and Pontus or Pontos are also common male names in some countries. Trends also indicate an interest in North America for Pontic. The terms Pontian Genocide or Pontian Greek Genocide did not generate significant search volumes since 2004 anywhere, nor is Greece or the Greek language seen in the lead for any of the possible terms. (For comparison purposes, the term " Armenian Genocide" generates notable search volumes strictly restricted to the period March-April-May each year since 2004 with the lead talen by Armenia, Lebanon and Turkey respectively, for understable reasons, and these are followed by a number of Californian communities centered around Glendale, Irvine, Los Angeles etc.) [1]"
The publication that is the base of the deleted section is called Google Trends. The details are as follows:
as well as variants within. I have put these details in the references section. Cretanforever
Sorry, I read your message only today! Google Trends is a tool that provides insights into general interest (that's how they define themselves). It's not a perfect tool and its information content should be taken with a lot of care and cautiousness (exactly like the wikipedia:), and still more so if one is seeking means for indication or for measurement.
For your question, if someone declares Britney Spears to be a star, and if, when one looked her up in the Google Trends, one had remarked that no significant google search volume had been generated for her, not many people had googled her, was curious about her, cared about her; one could then put quite reasonable question marks about her star status.
Of course, a lot of different dynamics may become pertinent in a google search. Another example is Inanna, the Sumerian goddess :) The term Inanna is sought after the most in Sweden [15], because there is a Swedish electronic music group of that name, popular mainly in that country. Sweden is followed by the United States, Australia, Turkey and the Netherlands on country basis (same link). Swedish, Dutch, Turkish and English are also the primary languages in which google searches on Inanna were made. [16]. And what is interesting is that searches on Inanna surged in the second half of 2005. There was a rock opera of that name by an American composer named John Crater [17] but it was composed in 2003, and was not really a huge hit. Therefore, one may wonder why the other countries figure in the results (apart from Sweden)? It becomes really interesting when one looks at the primary cities where an explosion of interest toward Inanna, perhaps the Sumerian goddess or perhaps someone else, was noticeable:) San Fransisco comes first!!! Followed by New York, Amsterdam etc. [18]. It is really interesting to ask how many times she must have been googled (perhaps by only a few IP's) to generate such search volumes? There is another catch about google, but let me keep to that much explanation for the moment. Regards. :)
I think the current title has gone on long enough. There are far few sources which refer to genocide, at least any credible non-partisan ones. Do people agree to this title? -- A.Garnet 09:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The citations that are asked, concerning the first 2 cases, can be found in many of the external links along with the links in the references' section. about the 3rd requested citation... i have no idea why it was added... (perhaps to counter-balance the first two?). anyway, in USSR-, Stalin-, etc related articles someone can find all the info he wants. -- Hectorian 11:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the Pontian Greek Genocide may be also recognized by Florida [19] and Massachusetts [20]. -- Tēlex 12:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
From: xxxxxxxx@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:55 PM To: Governor Jeb Bush Subject: Pontian Greek Genocide claims
Sir,
I am writing you from İzmir, Turkey.
My question relates to the issue of the Pontian Greek Genocide alleged to have taken place, according to a number of Greek authors, between 1914-1922, although there are also Greek sources such as the journalist Iakobos Pretenteris and researcher Dr. Georgios Nakracas who believe that nothing of a genocidal nature occurred. American historian Mark Mazower also puts forth observations in a similar vein. ( http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html)
I see that, in the wikipedia article on the Pontian Greek Genocide( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontian_Greek_Genocide), Florida is named as one of the U.S. states that have officially recognized the historical existence of a genocide in this case. Although, the reference shown for the recognition seems to consist of a draft proposal by a senator.
I would like to ask if there is such recognition by the State of Florida. The issue is sensitive through a number of viewpoints, and would inevitably implicate, even when not specifically named as in the Florida House of Representatives text that is on the wikipedia page, the Turkish nation as a whole. I do believe that genocide allegations are serious matters and the presentation of this particular issue, as far as I could judge, lacks the seriousness and the unanimity required. As regards the first, one "Turkish Prime Minister" named in Greek sources has not been recorded by history, he simply never existed. The Turkish Prime Minister in 1909 (that would be, the Ottoman Grand Vizier) was not named as such. Creating fictitious prime ministers for neighboring countries is not the best way for Greece for being taken seriously.
Could your office please confirm me if there is a recognition by the State of Florida or not?
Respectfully yours
From:Garrastazu, Tony <Tony.Garrastazu@myflorida.com> Mon, Jul 24, 2006 at 7:58 PM To: xxxxxxxx@gmail.com Cc: "Mohrland, Meghan" <Meghan.Mohrland@myflorida.com>, "Pilver, Michael" <Michael.Pilver@myflorida.com>
Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx:
Thank you for writing Governor Bush regarding the Pontic Greek populations that resided in the Pontus region of the Ottoman Empire. Regarding the issue of Genocide, the State of Florida, as a State within the Union, does not make nor promote its own foreign policy. The question of genocide, its definition and labeling is strictly a matter for the U.S. Federal Government in general and the U.S. State Department in particular.
After reviewing the links provided in your email, it appears that State Representative Gus Bilirakis of the Florida House of Representatives (via House Resolution 9161) and Florida State Senator (via Senate Resolution 2742) Mike Haridopolos placed a ceremonial non-binding resolution on this issue during the 2005 legislative session.
You can visit http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=17788& to see a copy of the resolution. You can also visit the Florida House of Representatives website at http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/
Thank you, Tony Garrastazu
can someone explain who s.ker pasha is? Even the citated artıcle does not mentıon such a name. Also the citated artıcle says Sefker Pasha was the Turkish prime minister (I guess it means Ottoman!!!!) but as far as I remember Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha was the prime minister at that time. -- Hattusili 05:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is a mess. The title is still POV, the 10% of it that is relevant (the intro and the first paragraph) contain no verifiable sources. I have made it abundantly clear before, there are no non-paritsan monographs dedicated to this event, no encylopedic articles, no journals articles - this article cannot be anything other than totally disputed. -- A.Garnet 11:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
There is an overkill of tags accompanying this article. I have to remove at least one. I am not sure what you mean by 'non-partisan'. There are testimonials, there are historians who wrote about these events in Greek. Do we assume that there is a conspiracy between them? If so, what a conspiracy, it sure beats the Da Vinci Code! I agree that a POV element may accompany such writings, but the underlying facts cannot be disputed. Your vehemence (on this question only) reminds me of some people who simply refuse to include anything about the Armenian genocide in the Turkey article. We cannot erase what happened in the past, but also we should treat it with proportionality and we should not use events from the past to creat unbalanced articles in the present. Politis 14:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Change of title? As pointed out, the genocide is recognised as an official commemoration day in Greece. If you think that the Greek state, people, survivors and others are lying, then I suggest you back up such a belief; it must be the greatest conspiracy ever if a state and its people are faking genocide... But the vehement reaction is not just a cause to LOL, but it deserves to be registered by historiographers. The Pontus used to be - within living memory - a thriving Greek region. It was wiped out, thousands were murdered, the buildings were distroyed, thousands fled to Georgia and Russia and suffered further pogroms under Stalin and then in the 1990s. There are very few survivors in the Pontus and a documentary was made. What dont you believe? Politis 12:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't mind the title used for the article at trwiki >> Pontus Genocide Allegations, but if all tags but one are still going to be hanging there, then there's no point in it. -- Telex 14:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Garnet, please don't misunderstand humor for 'throwing rhetoric around'. I really thought 'semi-caust' was a nice sense of black humor. My wife's grandfather was killed in Smyrna, so kindly treat the subject with the respect such loss of life deserves. I agree that the third sources are not equivalent to the ones about the Armenian genocide, but that does not make them moot. On the other hand, as Telex pointed out, there are no third sources (at all) on the non-genocide position. :NikoSilver: 20:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, simply because there is little academic coverage of the issue outside of Greece, does not mean we take Greece's word for it. There are infact sources which mention the plight of Pontians and Ottoman Greeks, two that have been mentioned already in these discussion pages:
Also Nikos, i don't see what Smyrna has to do with this article, which is about Pontians, and why you accuse me of disrespect, when i proposed a title (Ottoman Greek Casualties) which could include casualties of both Greeks in Smyrna, and Pontian Greeks. -- A.Garnet 11:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Your selective quoting of the first source is one more reason. The quote continues:
Meaning: There were not as many Pontian Greeks deported, as Armenians. That signifies that the method of genocide could be different (i.e. Armenians' deportation to desert and series of masacres rather than whatever other). The paragraph does not aim to disprove the Pontian Greek Genocide, it rather aims to prove the Armenian one.
I suppose the above means there was no Armenian genocide either! It was just a series of little 'massacres', according to your reasoning! :NikoSilver: 12:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
And Jesus! Talking about selective quoting, did you by any chance read the rest of the text in the page of your 'Killing Trap' quote? "...today I sent off squads to the interior to kill every Greek on sight..." Garnet? What is wrong with you? :NikoSilver: 12:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, I give you that, although I'd like to cross check the numbers cited below. Now, let's please tone down and discuss:
Of the documents referenced as sources for the claim of official recognition of genocide by U.S. States, only the one from New Jersey seems to have any claim to such a status. The one called "South Carolina recognition" has print of about 2 pixels high, not exactly legible, and yet I'm pretty certain none of the words there is "genocide". For those for Florida and Massachusetts there is no indication of any kind that the resolutions were accepted, at best that they were introduced. If they had been accepted, no doubt there would have been people eager to introduce clearly officially accepted versions as evidence, and capable of doing so. My conclusion is that, for serving as sources for the claims of recognition, these are bogus. -- Lambiam Talk 02:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
If I am correct, A.Garnet is disputing the term 'genocide' not the historical fact that thousands of Pontian Greeks were massacred. But, can we agree that, (1) there existed a Greek based civilisation in the Pontus for over 2,000 years. (2) In 1922, it suddenly vanished and most of the Pontian Greek Orthodox, Greek-speaking people disappeared and (3) there was much bloodshed. If so, how do we call such an event? The Greeks call it genocide; that is the reason it exists as an article. Politis 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, this title issue is much more serious than some people think.. It is really not fair to accuse a nation of genocide just on a whim.. It is a serious allegation that must be backed-up by serious academic research. The definition of the United Nations and the international law must be taken into account. Pls let's not use Wikipedia to fuel ethnic hatred. The article still doesn't have even one impartial source or citation. Pls reply... If not we can easily witness a proliferation of 'genocide' sites on Wikipedia, claiming that every nation in this world has committed genocide against each other...
Turkish and Greeks are very close, focusing on the sad moments of our history and calling each other baby-killers, child-killers is not going to get anywhere. Turks and Greeks don't need to prove something to each other, so let's calm down people... Baristarim 11:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Look dude.. Pls chill.. I am just pointing out the fact that genocide is a serious allegation, it has to be backed by serious academic research.. Pls, are you telling me that the recognition by Greece gives it more credibility?? If Turkey adopts a resolution saying that there was a Turkish Genocide perpetrated by Greeks, would that make it true?? Come on dude, u know politics.. 'And you are asking others to prove a negative.. How can someone possibly prove that 350,000 didn't die?? You have to prove that THEY DID DIE..' Also pls assume that others are acting in good faith..
But there is a more serious issue, this article LACKS gravely the kind of proof that would be needed to prove without a reasonable doubt that this article needs to be titled 'Genocide'. Baristarim 18:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok.. I didn't mean any disrespect.. I am sorry if u took it that way.. Look, if 350,000 people died, there would have to be so much more evidence than this.. Mass graves, photos, many more accounts by people who survived it etc to justify that number.. And the evidence present would only support the title 'massacres', not 'genocide', until there is much more overwhelming evidence.. Even Cyprus doesn't recognize this as a genocide!! I read the references and everything. It is not enough to label these as genocide man, seriously.. After the Armenian Genocide there was at least some trials to try those responsible, in this case nobody even tried to propose a trial.. And the only country to this day that has approved this as genocide is Greece, that's not impartial and you know it... Some American states? Those states pass many resolutions of the kind, Mississippi had a law saying that it was OK to kill a Mormon, until the abrogation of the law in the 70s. All I am saying is that this is really not helping this article, pls let's not use Wikipedia as a sandbox.. It is really not fair on anyone.. This article is a mess, it really looks like it was never thought out and planned... BTW, can I have a reply for the post below? Seriously, if you got impartial and credible sources, cite them to support these allegations... Otherwise let's ask for arbitration and edit-protect on all these issues... Baristarim 20:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with the survivors being Greeks. First of all, there has to be a PROOF confirming the 350,000 number, the article has no citations whatsoever to any impartial source on the specific allegations it makes. Light Death, Turkish casualties being 15,000? Where is the PROOF?? You have not been able to find any citations for months now, this is getting ridiculous.. I only pity you for harboring so much anger.. As for the accounts of the diplomats, they are nowhere close to proving the extent of the allegations leveled. What, they travelled around all around war-torn Anatolia that had no railroads looking for what happenned to the Greek population? And as for their conversation with other Turkish officials and what they might have heard from them, I got only one thing to say: FYI I happen to be a practicing Intl lawyer, and in law this kind of proof is called HEARSAY, they are not valid in a court of law as absolute proofs, they are called preuves relatives, since they can only confirm such person told them so, and not that such an event has taken place. And for you to prove that it was a genocide and not a massacre, you have to scientifically prove the existence of a co-ordinated attempt to wipe-out a nation, major parts of it, seperate them in whole from their territory for eternity etc.. There is NO PROOF of such a command structure, individual events provided don't prove this as genocide.. I know that some people are trying to jump on the genocide bandwagon since they have realized that how much pressure it can put on a country.. And as such I propose the name 'Pontus Greek Massacres'. As for the photos, there are thousand of photos of the Armenian Genocide, considering that they happenned to be at the same time, I guess there would be AT LEAST SOME photos to back up the allegation that 350 thousand Ponti were killed. Baristarim 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, what part of it is hard to understand?? THE PERSON MAKING A CLAIM HAS TO PROVE IT, if you say that 350,000 Greeks were killed, it is up to you to prove it, not for me to disprove it.. Haven't u had ANY SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION??? You make the claim, you prove it. Nobody is under no obligation to prove that 350,000 Greeks DIDN'T die... If you continue to sing the same tune, you will have confirmed yourself as someone who doesn't understand how the scientific process works, haven't you ever heard of the SCIENTIFIC METHOD??? You say something, you prove it... You make the claim that 350,000 people died, you have the obligation to prove that claim to others.. You sound like people who say 'prove that God doesn't exist' while replying to people who question their faiths!!! And apparently you do have anger for the Turks, if it is not towards the Turks, it must be some personal psychological issue then.. There can be no other logical explanation... NO PHOTOS, NO ACADEMIC RESEARCH UNDERTAKEN BY ANY WESTERN UNIVERSITY!! THIS THING IS AN UTTER JOKE. Baristarim 23:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Nobody has the obligation to disprove the genocide claim, you have to prove it... If you want, have a look at the transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials.. I PERSONALLY prepared a sub-thesis on it in Law School, GENOCIDE CLAIMS ARE SERIOUS CLAIMS THAT NEED TO BE BACKED-UP WITH SOLID, HARD-AS-A-ROCK, UNCONTESTABLE PROOFS.. Three web-sites with dodgy web-designs, HEARSAY from a bunch of diplomats and whipped-up and out-dated Nationalistic rhetoric is not ENOUGH, DO YOU HAVE A 20 FOR IQ or what???????? What part of it don't you understand?????????? Baristarim 23:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I did some WP:PA, eh? I am such a badboy, aren't I?? Well, I must be punished then!!! You are a naughty boy Baris, you are a badboy Baris, pls somebody spank me!!! I would rather be doing WP:PA rather than trying to fuel ethnic hatred on some obscure corner of the net, believe me. Well, you still haven't been able to respond to my post, so I will accept that as your admission that you are unable to face the truth and/or not come up with an adequate response in a scientific manner... That's alright, because I knew that u wouldn't be able to do so... I have read everything that you have mentioned, one of the references you have mentioned doesn't even mention this issue!!! Have you read what I wrote?? Pls stop the propagation of ethnic hatred, and please don't manipulate Wikipedia to satisfy your own ego.. It is really lame, believe me. Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody paste some proof pls for:
The numbers of Turkish and Greek casualties (currently it is 350000 for Greeks, and 15000 Turks), for someone reason these numbers seem not to emanate from serious academic proof but from the transcripts of some high-school debate club...
And for the claim that 'were deported to RUSSIA', in the beginning of the article it is claimed they escaped to Russia, that's a good claim and I am sure there is proof for this out there.. But DEPORTED?? There was a population exchange agreement, why the hell would they be deported to Russia?
And 'Light Death', see below...
Pls reply...
Regards... Baristarim 17:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
By the way, International Association of Genocide Scholars doesn't mention EVEN ONE WORD about this, you must be really having a laugh, aren't you??? Baristarim 23:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I was also wondering where the Turkish casualties number came from... For Russia issue, I made the appropriate change... Ok, now I see where the number 353,000 comes from. ON THE OTHER HAND, I fail to see any PROOF in the web-sites you have mentioned. Just because someone repeats something that doesn't make it a proof.. None of these sites have PROOF, no photos, no VERIFIED EYE-witness accounts to overwhelm the reader to convince him that THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND GREEKS WERE KILLED.. Most of the diplomats' accounts depend on HEARSAY, it cannot prove anything.. The quote from the German Chancellor is a great example, what, he was in Anatolia at the time???? Some guy told a German diplomat so and so, he telegraphed so and so, and he said so and so... THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFICALLY-ADMISSIBLE PROOF!! These sites claim to have hundreds of photos, funny that they DON'T show ANY... The evidence you have presented doesn't even prove that massacres even occured, let alone be able to classify them as genocide, what part of this do you fail to understand??? There were 20 million people living in the Ottoman Empire, many foreigners included, if there was such a mass organization that managed to kill so many people, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE MUCH MORE PROOF, SOLID, CONCRETE PROOF, NOT HEARSAY, REAL DAMN PROOF... Show me Western newspaper entries from correspondents in the Ottoman Empire at the time!! There are many for the Armenian Genocide.. Where the hell are they??? You WANT TO BELIEVE that there is such proof, but it's time to wake up and smell the roses, THERE IS NONE.. This is really sad, I just don't understand why you have so much hate and anger towards Turkish people. It is really sad you know... Baristarim 23:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I still can't see any proof about the 'Light Death' except bland statements, if someone can't back this up, I will remove it, or at least add 'according to unverifiable sources, it has been alleged that'... Seriously dude, blaming a nation of committing genocide ain't no joke, when you say something you should have the balls to back it up, if not, don't say it... Baristarim 23:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.. And you know it.. I was trying to point out that the evidence put forward is so flimsy that it can barely support the massacre claims... If there is evidence out there, bring it!!! Where the hell are the photos??? I am willing to accept any suggestion as long as it can be substantiated. But I am not stupid enough to lay down and accept the words of anyone without seeing scientific proof. Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well again, here we go... U don't know me, so you cannot say 'i am not surpised so and so'. Treating every Turk that asks for more proof of these allegations as Holocaust-deniers, clearly shows your stereotypical visions of Turks and doesn't do much to help your credibility. I am personally offended by your implication that just because I ask you to substantiate these claims, I must be a Holocaust-denier (don't say that you didn't imply that, you did and YOU KNOW IT). This issue has nothing to do with the Armenian genocide neither the Holocaust. Don't try to win sympathy from others by pretending that you were the victims of a genocide. You LOST the war fair and square. Maybe you should try accepting that (huh?). Greeks lost Istanbul and Izmir fair and square, how about trying to admit that for a change??? (huh?) And the only state that recognizes the Pontic 'Genocide' is Greece, even Cyprus doesn't recognize it (but they recognize the Armenian Genocide, funny, eh??). So I am guessing from your reasoning that you are recognizing TRNC because, like this 'genocide', only one country recognizes it.. Good...
Nobody has asked you to like Kemal, he never pretended to be the leader of the Greek nation, and let's face it, he was much more successful on all fronts than jokers like Venizelos, or any Greek leader, for that matter...
Furthermore, the fact that there are NO citations for many of the allegations is different than saying that proofs presented can't prove that it was a genocide. FYI, again, I am an intl. lawyer by training, and I know what I am saying when I say that the sources and proofs presented CANNOT back up the claim that this was a genocide... If this truly happenned, I want to understand, but the proofs that are being put forward are not enough to support the charges levelled, and you KNOW IT.. If I am presented with convincing proof and I see that impartial states have recognized this as Genocide, I give you my WORD that I will recognize it..
Stop demagoging as well.. I said I SAW where the number comes from, I didn't say that it is enough proof that the claims of some hate-filled web-site that calls Turks baby-killers that so many Greeks were killed.. As you wish, you can avoid responding to my specific comments.. ( Personal attack removed) Baristarim 02:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to take this all the way up to arbitration if the unscientific and hate-oriented version of the title of the article is not changed. I call on all concerned Wikipedians to join the debate, they can see for themselves.. R U ready for the ride Hector?? Baristarim 11:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the title of the article should be changed
I contest the word 'Genocide' and the inclusion of the latter in the title for the following reasons:
From the article genocide: "Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
1- Title of an article speaks a lot for itself, inclusion of the word genocide in the title, implicitly states that the article will be able to provide enough proof of this claim.. And if it fails to do so, the word Genocide should only be included in the body of the article,
2- Claim of Genocide is an extremely serious allegation to make, one that needs to be backed up by serious and constant academic research and solid proofs.
3- And that there is a clear line seperating 'Genocide from 'Massacre', in that for a Genocide to have taken place, there has to be the proof that there was a clear commanding structure and a chain of command that expressly strived to commit the acts that would be described as 'Genocide' (see above)...
4- For more information regarding the line that seperates between Genocide from Massacre, pls see the Nuremberg trial transcripts. Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide have been defined as such not on the massacres themselves, but also by proving that there existed such a command structure that effectively and continously strived to commit the acts that constitute a Genocide... Extensive data is available on both of these events, and the legal framework for Genocide acceptance has been clearly established, as the minutes of ICJ trials show.
5- As such, I claim that the article fails to provide such credible proof. In other words, the article fails to deliver the sort of scientific, academic, universal and solid proof that would be neccessary to verify the claim of a Genocide.
6- Moreover, I hold that these claims are being used to only fuel ethnic-hatred:
6.1- The only sovereign country to have recognized this as Genocide is Greece itself, and that only 9 years ago, the choice of day to commemerate these events is also suspect: May 19th, a national holiday in Turkey since the 1920s.
6.2- Even Cyprus, a country that is extremely close to Greece politically as much it is far from Turkey has not recognized this as genocide.
7- In the article itself, there is not enough proof to substantiate any of these claims:
7.1- The article makes many serious allegations for which citations have been missing for months. Ex. Light Death,
7.2- An overwhelming majority (app. 95 percent) of articles on this subject found on the net have been written either by Greeks or published in Greek web-sites,
7.3- References cited in the article are either completely biased, have no-connection to the subject whatsoever, or have questionable backgrounds. Ex. International Association of Genocide Scholars, that is cited in the article has no link in its website whatsoever concerning this issue. The page devoted to this issue by the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide studies is highly-biased, it claims to have hundreds of photos in its possesion, but none are published, the tone of the writings are clearly racist and not-scientific, and most importantly, has no proof delivered that has been derived using the Scientific Method, none of the allegations are substantiated, no interviews with impartial researchers and none of the claims are signed (by anyone whatsoever, let alone Professors of international standing)
7.4- The other 'proofs' are accounts by a handful of foreign diplomats stationed in the Ottoman Empire. Half of them are considered as HEARSAY, accounts of the stories told by other people, and the accounts of the remaining two or three are not enough to substantiate the claim that 350,000 people were systematically killed.
7.5- Most importantly, there is no link, source, proof or whatsoever to substantiate the claim that the Ottoman and Turkish adminstrations had the will, the command structure and the continuity and generalization of acts to commit a Genocide against the Pontus Greeks.
8- Finally, after 90 years of alleged events taking place and the claim of such a high death-toll, there are absolutely NO photos, no mass-graves, not enough corroborated eye-witness stories that would have resulted from the massacre of such a great number of people, even though there are many for the Armenian Genocide that took place at approximately the same time in geographically close lands.
9- And thus, the 'Genocide' title cannot be substantiated because of a lack of sources, and as such it makes this article on Wikipedia 'original research', which is contrary to the policy of Wikipedia.
10- As such, I propose that the title of the article should be changed to 'Pontic Greek Massacres' to conform with the spirit and philosophy of Wikipedia, since, in my opinion, this article was given this name only with the purpose of igniting ethnic-hatred. Baristarim 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I was just looking through the section of Pontian Greek Genocide of the web-site of the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide.. Now can people please stop citing that non-sense??? First of all, none of the claims are signed by researchers (a must for all academic research), and I also just realized that the only person that has signed this page is Panayiotis Diamadis, hmmm... that's kinda funny... Look people, can you tell me with a straight face and like a man that this is impartial?? There is no list of academicians working on the research unit of Pontian Greek Genocide of this institute.. It doesn't look like it is presenting the results of a serious search, but the thesis of one individual that has been given a page on this website... I call on everyone to have a second look at the section of this web site about the Pontian Greek Genocide and tell me how exactly it would be considered reliable... Pls don't cite verifiablity, not truth.. Have a second look at that policy, it also demands that the sources have to be reliable... The tone of the writings are not academic and they are, to say the least, not serious, and at worst, racist.. Pls have some common sense...Regards... Baristarim 17:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to log out, I am on vacation, but when I get back to France I am removing that source from this article and from the articles where it is cited.. If u don't want this to happen pls say according to Panayiotis Diamadis of the Australian Institute Of Holocaust and Genocide has claimed that.. On second thoughts that's what I will put since it is the TRUTH.. Truth will set you free, right?? take care y'all!! Baristarim 17:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
There are the cases of the Assyrian genocide, Bosnian Genocide, Burundi genocide, Rwandan Genocide, that have never been recognised by any country, but such articles exist in Wikipedia. On the other hand, there are the cases of the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide that have not been recognised by all the countries in the world (the word 'holocaust', if not synonymous, is stronger in meaning than the word 'genocide'), but articles concerning them also exist here. The Pontian Greek Genocide has been recognised by a country ( Greece), several American and one Australian state. Lets face it, there is no real reason to change the title. Having in mind that the article about the 'Armenian Genocide' has been proposed twice (!!!) for deletion, i am not surprised of attempts to at least rename this article... -- Hectorian 14:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Those who question the credibility of the AIHGS should take a look at the list of its Directors and Associates at http://www.aihgs.com/images/InfoBooklet2003.pdf. I doubt they would allow anyone to use the Institute to promote his or her agenda without credibility and sufficient historical evidence? But let's assume that the individual mentioned above (Panayiotis Damantis)is biased. What about R. J. Rummel who, based on his research, states that 347,000 Greeks died as a result of atrocities in Turkey at that time? Was he Greek too? Was he biased too? One only has to take a look at the Citations, Bibliography, and References that were recently added and will see that a good number of the authors were/are not Greek. Some of the books and documents are rare or out of print, but with a little persistance one should be able to locate them.
This article is not about ethnic hatred or racism as one mentions above. It is about ackowledging a Genocide that took place approximately 90 or so years ago. If such events are not acknowledged, tought, and those responsible brought to justice; dictatorships, and authoritarian regimes, would have no disincentive or fear of repeating them. Cases in point Darfur, Rwanda, etc. Let's also make clear that the perpetrators of this, the Armenian, and Assyrian Genocides involved only the leadership, and a minority of the Turkish military, and population. Both of my parents were born in Turkey and were in their teens during those horrible events. Both cited examples of Turks who at great risk helped and protected many Greeks from sure death. We are greatful to them. Rizos01 03:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)