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One interesting legacy is that many Greek Cypriots adopted the Muslim title of "Hadji" (bestowed upon Muslims who have completed the hajj to Makkah) to indicate that they had completed a pilgrimage to a significant Christian religious site. Hence, many Greek Cypriot surnames begin with "Hadji-,"
this is not a cypriot characteristic, it is common in all greek speaking areas. Mavros 15:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hadji is also a prefix for people that were doing pilgrimage to the Holy Lands (e.g. Jerusalem, Bethleem), not just Muslim Hadji as in Mecca Gts-tg ( talk) 23:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
According to Eurostat 2010 the population of Greek Cyprus is 796.000 of which 670.000 are Greek Cypriots http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-10-045/EN/KS-SF-10-045-EN.PDF —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siras ( talk • contribs) 04:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I think we should write how Greek Cypriots call themselves (Ελληνοκύπριοι) and also how Turkish Cypriots call them (Kibris Rum). Thus we can link to to the article Rûm. -- Kupirijo ( talk) 11:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I think mentioning Achaeans and Myceaneans in the same sentence is a bit redundant. They are after all the sane people, I think. -- Kupirijo ( talk) 11:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Misleading map of cyprus showing 1973 population. By that time, most of the Turkish Cypriots had moved into small enclaves and had abondoned thier land. This picture presents a misleading Point of View. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillMall ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
hi all - nice article btw - I have hidden the sentence that describes the Greek Cypriot population as "80%" as there has been no citation added since Jan 2009. The numbers cannot be taken simply from the Republic of Cyprus census as this is lacking in many ways and in no way accurately summarises the population of Cyprus. The survey did not include immigrants to the North of Cyprus of British, Russian etc nationality, nor does it include many of the "illegal" Turkish immigrants.
THe biggest problem is that it does not seem to include many of the Turkish Cypriots who have legitimate claim to citizenship
Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi all
THe census of 2001 amended in 2005 gives the Cypriot figures as "Country of birth: by major age group, April 2001" at 77,676
I appreciate the number may be higher but it seems bizzare that the statement of 200,000 is deemed to be true, let alone an increase to 300,000
CAn someone try and clarify please ? Are the figures currently in the article reporting "Of Greek Cypriot descent" rather than "Greek Cypriot". Obviously if you are born in the UK you are not Greek Cypriot.
Thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Greek Cypriots are not "ethnic Greeks", the term "Greek" refers, primarily, to their common language. Genetic research on both DNA and blood groups has established that GCs and TCs are part of the same gene pool, which is distinct from that of either "mainland" country. GCs are genetically more akin with people from West Asia (the Levant) and North Africa than Greece. Therefore, they are not "ethnic Greeks". It is the same with "Arabs", peoples who share the same common language, Arabic, but not necessarily the same ethnicity.
See these sources for a starter: [1] [2] [3]
— Olympian ( talk) 18:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
i took the liberty of removing a link about "Holiday villas for rent in cyprus, paphos". also, the US population source is a facebook group, and i can't find the relevant info in it (although i may have missed it). k kisses 00:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Facebook and Amazon are not reliable sources! Can someone please change this, otherwise I will. Thank you. Turco85 ( Talk) 14:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
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There are more than one flag that are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world. File:Flag of EOKA.tif A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 10:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
more than one flag [...] are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world, you make it even harder, since you need to show sources for which of those flags, if any, is representative. If there are different subgroups using different flags, one could imagine some sort of gallery, but then each single flag would need to be sourced to its subgroup.
There are not any sources as the flag is unofficial but only in public use. The most common greek cypriot flag is the one that I already show you but with orange Cyprus. It is used not only by ultranationalists but as i said it's used by many others. https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cy%7Dgr.html https://www.interflag.gr/el/simaies-istorikes/892-greek-cyprus.html https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Greek-Cypriot-ENOTIKI-EOKA-Flag-5x3-100-x-150cm-Greece-Cyprus-Nationalists/222872359442?hash=item33e43a5212:g:87wAAOSw1RVabTce http://www.drasis-kes.org/2016/10/estin-oun-ellas-kai-i-kypros.html http://www.diakonima.gr/2012/03/26/επιμνημόσυνος-λόγος-για-τον-ήρωα-κυρι/enomenes-elliniki-kypriaki-simaia-03/ https://picclick.com/HQ-Greek-Cypriot-Flag-EOKA-ENOTIKH-322452592369.html http://www.epilekta.com/2018/02/blog-post_637.html http://www.defence-point.gr/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/APOEL-Simaia_EOKA.jpg https://antiparakmi.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/bc019-kyproselliniki.jpg A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 10:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
At this point you are wrong. This flag represents an ethnic group. Cypriots that are basically Greek. It is not political issue. If we don't put a flag like this one, we can just put a image of Greek Cypriots waving this flag without say in that is their flag. We can just say that is a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identity. In the infobox, we can put the Cyprus flag next to Greek. A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 12:29, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
This flagwhen there are so many different versions? 2) What evidence can you give that any of the many different flags
represents an ethnic groupas a whole and is
not political issue? 3) Why should we have a picture of
image of Greek Cypriots waving this flagunless we can call it their flag? 4) What is it about sources you do not understand? Please read WP:V and WP:RS. Text like
a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identityalso needs a source. 5) Finally: The Cyprus flag and the Greek flag are national flags. They can not be used to show ethnicity. No way! -- T*U ( talk) 13:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
You are from the occupited area, arent you? A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 14:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
ok A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 15:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Sarno et al. 2017 conclude that: In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’. On the other hand, the continental part of Greece, including Peloponnesus, appears as slightly differentiated, by clustering with the other Southern Balkan populations of Albania and Kosovo.
, but Demetrios only included the first part of the conclusion. Why isn't the article mentioning the full conclusion?
Other parts I added from the source:
Greek Cypriots are differentiated by Turkish Cypriots in some aspects. Turkish Cypriots have 5.6% Eastern Eurasian (likely Central Asian/Turkic) and 2.1% North African ancestry, while Greek Cypriots have 0.6% Eastern Eurasian and no North African ancestry.Heraclides et al. 2017:
One additional difference between GCy and TCy was the presence of moderate numbers of East Eurasian (primarily Central Asian) Y-haplogroups and small numbers of North African Y-haplogroups among TCy but not among GCy. The frequency of East Eurasian haplogroups among TCy was C-M130 (0.5%), H-L901 (0.3%), N-M231 (2.4%), O-M175 (0.8%) and Q-M242 (1.3%), reaching a total of 5.6%, but only totalling 0.6% among GCy. North African haplogroups (E-M81, E-V38) were only found among TCy (2.1%)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A major feature differentiating Cypriots from Greeks, is the much lower frequency of haplogroups I (2.9% GCy, 7.3% TCy, ~10–21% mainland Greeks) and R1a (2.9% GCy, 3.2% TCy, ~10–22% mainland Greeks) among the former. All differences in haplogroup frequencies between populations were statistically significant (Fisher’s Exact test, p<0.001).
About 24% of all Cypriots are descendants of Levantine migrations from the Neolithic to the present era.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A previous study analyzing detailed SNP data for determining ancient ancestry among Cypriots, revealed that around 24% of Cypriot patrilinages are descendent from the Levant, derived from migrations occurring from the Neolithic and throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages
Why are they source misrepresentation? @ Khirurg: has to explain reverts. Genetic studies have been used selectively. All differences between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks have been removed, similarities between Greek and Turkish Cypriots and differences between Turkish Cypriots and Turks have been overemphasized because there is omission of the full studies. Also, where in any source I mentioned, is there any "aggressive POV"? Ahmet Q. ( talk) 01:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
the ethnicity calculation is done separately from Genetic Groups using older technology that is outdated and in need of an overhaul. We are working on replacing the Ethnicity Estimates right now, and in 2021 plan to roll out much better ones based on totally new technology.Until the end of 2021, we'll get better results about population clusters. @ Demetrios1993: The Greek peninsula has historically been the demographic concentration point for the central and southern Balkans. Pre-medieval links may mask ghost populations which belonged to the same general cluster as the ancestors of Albanians, but I think that Pre-Proto-Albanians and MBA/LBA Proto-Greeks weren't that different overall.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethnicities are comprised of several Genetic Groups. Genetic Groups in this ethnicity offer you a more detailed understanding of the geographic regions your ancestors came from.So, "ethnicities" are relevant broader groups, while "genetic groups" are more refined categories. But still, by viewing a number of them, i was able to see that each has a different timeline which generally dates back to 1600-1900 CE, thus not that ancient. As for the second point you address Maleschreiber, i do agree with you that the ancestors of Albanians and Greeks, from an autosomal (atDNA) perspective, generally belonged to the same macro-cluster (comprised of the central and southern Balkans, as well as southern Italy and probably western Anatolia) from at least the Iron Age. Though, i wouldn't personally support that either pre-proto-Greeks or pre-proto-Albanians belonged to it. Pre-proto-Greeks certainly didn't belong to it, because they would have been predominantly Yamnaya-like (generally 50% EHG and 50% CHG) in admixture; i am thinking members of the Catacomb culture as likely candidates. Likewise, the identity of pre-proto-Albanians, though admittedly palaeo-Balkan, is still a debated subject, with most hypotheses being revolved around Illyrians, Daco-Moesians, or Thracians; even a combination of the aforementioned in varying degrees, and these people didn't constitute a single autosomal cluster. Personally, due to my view that the proto-Albanian Urheimat was within these boundaries i created, i believe there was a degree of hybridization because this area – especially during the early Roman imperial period – was probably the most multi-ethnic in the Balkans, with at least four linguistic groups being present; namely Illyrian proper, Dalmatian-Pannonian, Thracian proper and Moesian (sub-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian), and as if those were not enough, the Romans in the 1st century CE allowed two mass relocations of more than 150,000 Geto-Dacians (trans-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian) to Moesia Superior and Moesia Inferior (50,000 in the years of Augustus and over 100,000 in the years of Nero). By the way, this triangular area i show is based on the borders of the Drina river that separates the Eastern Balkan Romance from the Western Balkan Romance, the Jireček line that separates Latin from Greek as lingua francas, and the Danube separating the Latin-speaking Romans from Barbaricum; all relevant for understanding proto-Albanian. Regardless of all that, i would like to point out that Greek-Albanian autosomal affinity is also based on the fact that the two populations have almost identical frequencies for the three main European ancestral groups – Western Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers and Yamnaya – as shown in this three-way mixture model (Figure 3) published here. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Ahmet Q: You want me to point out how your edits are aggressively POV and intellectually dishonest? By all means.
A 2017 study, found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene poolto
A 2017 study (Heraclides et al), found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene pool or can be explained via the introduction of Turkish patrilineal ancestry and heavy admixture with the local Greek Cypriot population. This refers to
this high percentage of shared haplotypes between them could be explained either by a common local (pre-Ottoman) ancestry for both communities and a recent (few centuries) divergence (scenario 1 in Introduction), or a non-local (i.e. Turkish) paternal origin of TCy and extensive mixing with the local GCy population during the Ottoman era (scenario 2 in Introduction)in the paper. But if you read the paper in its entirety, or cited it faithfully, you would have seen that the paper states 1)
This analysis reveals that none of these are found in Turkey (S11 Table), which does not support a Turkish origin of GCy-TCy shared haplotypesand 2)
This observation thus further strengthens the notion of a common paternal ancestry between GCy and TCy (scenario 1)and 3)
In fact, Greeks show similar differentiation from both GCy and TCy (i.e., they are equally distant from them), which, further supports scenario 1 (common local ancestry of GCy and TCy) rather than scenario 2 (recent non-local ancestry of TCy and subsequent intermixing with GCy)and 4)
Concentrating to more recent history, the lack of shared haplotypes observed between GCy and Turks in the current study, indicates an apparently null (or extremely limited) penetration of Turkish paternal haplotypes into the GCy gene pool, despite 300 years of Ottoman rule of the islandand 5)
the moderate genetic differentiation (Rst) between TCy and Turks (Table 2) does not support the notion that TCy primarily derive from the same paternal gene pool as mainland Turks (scenario 2 in Introduction). Even the abstract (surely you read the abstract?) states:
reveals that despite some differences in haplotype sharing and haplogroup structure, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots share primarily a common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry. Thus, the source clearly supports scenario 1 (that GCy and TCy share a common pre-Ottoman origin) in favor of scenario 2 (post-Ottoman admixture as the source of genetic similarity between GCy and TCy). Your edits explicitly removed that part and instead made it seem like the source gives equal support to scenario 1 and scenario 2, which is absolutely not the case. It's as if you are trying to mislead the readers into thinking that the paper supports a more "Turkish" origin for GCy, which the paper explicitly contradicts. Why did you do this? Did you not read the paper in its entirety (incompetence) or did you read it in its entirety but decided to leave the "inconvenient" parts out (intellectual dishonesty)? Were you hoping no one would notice?
The frequency of total haplotypes shared [a] between Greek and Turkish Cypriots is 7-8%, with analysis showing that none of these being found in Turkey, thus not supporting a Turkish origin for the shared haplotypes., even though it is backed by the source. Why did you do this?
About 24% of all Cypriots are descendants of Levantine migrations from the Neolithic to the present era, but again, that's NOT what the source says. It say:
A previous study analyzing detailed SNP data for determining ancient ancestry among Cypriots, revealed that around 24% of Cypriot patrilinages are descendent from the Levant. Do you see the difference? If not, you shouldn't dabble in genetics.
Furthermore, from the Greek sub-populations, Cretan Greeks were found to be the closest to Cypriots.even though that is also backed by the source.
Albania, Kosovo and mainland Greece are "slightly differentiated" and cluster togetheris off-topic as it has nothing to do with the topic of the article. Why did you add it?
In summary, it seems in your edits you a) misquoted and selectively quoted the source to push a particular POV, b) removed sourced content that didn't fit that POV, and c) added off-topic material to further push POV. Your edits are POV in their entirety, so do not even think about trying to ram them through by force. This article is outside your usual area of interest. Can you explain to us your sudden interest in it? Because I can't help avoid the impression that your edits here have an ulterior motive. I hope that is not the case. Oh, and one last thing: This had better be the last time you refer to me as usual POV-pushing editor
. Clear?
Khirurg (
talk) 20:52, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A major feature differentiating Cypriots from Greeks, is the much lower frequency of haplogroups I (2.9% GCy, 7.3% TCy, ~10–21% mainland Greeks) and R1a (2.9% GCy, 3.2% TCy, ~10–22% mainland Greeks) among the former. All differences in haplogroup frequencies between populations were statistically significant (Fisher’s Exact test, p<0.001).Why was this removed? It's a faithful reproduction of information from the article.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
These haplogroup differences indicate differential migrations into Cyprus and mainland Greece, at different points in history and prehistory. I2 is considered the major haplogroup among Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherers[60], who apparently were either absent from Cyprus or were totally diluted (nearly extinguished) by subsequent migrations. Although the exact origins and migratory patterns of R1a and R1b are still under rigorous investigation, it seems that they are linked to Bronze Age migrations from the Western Eurasian Steppe and Eastern Europe into Southern (including Greece) and Western Europe[61]. Apparently, such migrations (especially as regards R1a) into Cyprus were limited.. The paper also states:
In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, indicating deeper shared paternal ancestry than the shared haplotype analysis, Greeks appear genetically close to CypriotsSo we can't just cherry pick the parts you like out of context, you see? We have to be intellectually honest and give the full picture. Additionally, the paper state
However, despite the very low genetic differentiation between Cypriots, Calabrian Italians, and Lebanese, the former appear to differentiate, in terms of Y-haplogroup frequencies, both from Middle Eastern (including Lebanese) and from Southeast European Mediterranean (including South Italians) populations. The main feature distinguishing Cypriots from Lebanese and other Middle Easterners included in our analysis is their much lower frequency of haplogroup J1. This observation clearly suggests that although Cypriots and Lebanese share common paternal roots, the latter received a substantial influx from populations high in J1, probably during the early Arab conquest era (7th cent. AD).. So there are important difference between the Cypriots and Lebanese, yet you do not seem at all interested in that. Why is that? Btw, you did not answer my question: Why the sudden interest in this topic? Could it be that you came here to back Ahmet Q, who clearly stalked Demetrios1993 here, and got into a discussion he seems to be having...difficulty with? As for an RfC, I would like to remind you that nothing gets added without consensus. And if the usual tag team of Balkan accounts of a particular ethnicity shows up and starts to spam the RfC with !votes (as with every RfC you seem involved in), be aware that I will seek as much admin oversight as possible, up to and including arbitration. If I were you, I really wouldn't want to draw attention to this kind of behavior. Khirurg ( talk) 02:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece. The biggest differentiation factor between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners including the Lebanese is their much lower frequency of haplogroup J1.If this can't be agreed on, I'll ask if it should be included via RfC. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 17:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, which indicate deeper shared paternal ancestry than shared haplotypes, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots, and equidistant from Greek and Turkish Cypriots. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroups, the major difference between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the low frequency of haplogroups, I2, R1a and R1b among Greek Cypriots in comparison to the population of mainland Greece. The biggest differentiation factor between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners including the Lebanese is the much lower frequency of haplogroup J1 among Greel Cypriots.. I could possibly agree to something like that. Khirurg ( talk) 14:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I am ok with the following text: In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, which indicate deeper shared paternal ancestry than shared haplotypes, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots, and equidistant from Greek and Turkish Cypriots. Both Greek and Turkish Cypriots have similar frequencies for their major patrilineal haplogroups, with the main subclades for both being J2a-M410 (23.8% and 20.3% resp.), E-M78 (12.8% and 13.9% resp.) and G2-P287 (12.5% and 13.7% resp.). The biggest differentiating characteristic between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks is the low frequency of haplogroups I, R1a, and R1b among the former, while the biggest differentiating characteristic between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners (including the Lebanese) is the much lower frequency of haplogroup J1 among the former. Greek Cypriots are also differentiated by Turkish Cypriots in some aspects; namely Turkish Cypriots have 5.6% Eastern Eurasian (likely Central Asian/Turkic) and 2.1% North African patrilineal ancestry, while Greek Cypriots have 0.6% Eastern Eurasian and no North African patrilineal ancestry.
Demetrios1993 (
talk) 20:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
References
This section does not seem to have anything to do with the history of the Greek Cypriots. In particular it does not establish a connection between the Greek Cypriot people and that period.
It mentions how archeological evidence suggests an unsystematic Greek settlement of the island which occurred from 1400 BC and how that accelerated further down-the-line but it makes no effort to establish a link between the modern Greek Cypriots and the "Greek" (Mycenaean-Dorian) cultures to which reference is being made.
Have there been any studies that establish a direct, unbroken ethnolinguistic heritage between the Mycenaeans, Dorians and the modern Greek Cypriots?
Maybe in the meantime this section can do with a disclaimer (does one exist?) that says "although this is being used by XXXX to suggest a connection no actual connection has thus far been established"?
Perhaps the ambiguous usage of the word Greek here could also do with a revision? Nargothronde ( talk) 07:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
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One interesting legacy is that many Greek Cypriots adopted the Muslim title of "Hadji" (bestowed upon Muslims who have completed the hajj to Makkah) to indicate that they had completed a pilgrimage to a significant Christian religious site. Hence, many Greek Cypriot surnames begin with "Hadji-,"
this is not a cypriot characteristic, it is common in all greek speaking areas. Mavros 15:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hadji is also a prefix for people that were doing pilgrimage to the Holy Lands (e.g. Jerusalem, Bethleem), not just Muslim Hadji as in Mecca Gts-tg ( talk) 23:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
According to Eurostat 2010 the population of Greek Cyprus is 796.000 of which 670.000 are Greek Cypriots http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-10-045/EN/KS-SF-10-045-EN.PDF —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siras ( talk • contribs) 04:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I think we should write how Greek Cypriots call themselves (Ελληνοκύπριοι) and also how Turkish Cypriots call them (Kibris Rum). Thus we can link to to the article Rûm. -- Kupirijo ( talk) 11:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I think mentioning Achaeans and Myceaneans in the same sentence is a bit redundant. They are after all the sane people, I think. -- Kupirijo ( talk) 11:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Misleading map of cyprus showing 1973 population. By that time, most of the Turkish Cypriots had moved into small enclaves and had abondoned thier land. This picture presents a misleading Point of View. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillMall ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
hi all - nice article btw - I have hidden the sentence that describes the Greek Cypriot population as "80%" as there has been no citation added since Jan 2009. The numbers cannot be taken simply from the Republic of Cyprus census as this is lacking in many ways and in no way accurately summarises the population of Cyprus. The survey did not include immigrants to the North of Cyprus of British, Russian etc nationality, nor does it include many of the "illegal" Turkish immigrants.
THe biggest problem is that it does not seem to include many of the Turkish Cypriots who have legitimate claim to citizenship
Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi all
THe census of 2001 amended in 2005 gives the Cypriot figures as "Country of birth: by major age group, April 2001" at 77,676
I appreciate the number may be higher but it seems bizzare that the statement of 200,000 is deemed to be true, let alone an increase to 300,000
CAn someone try and clarify please ? Are the figures currently in the article reporting "Of Greek Cypriot descent" rather than "Greek Cypriot". Obviously if you are born in the UK you are not Greek Cypriot.
Thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Greek Cypriots are not "ethnic Greeks", the term "Greek" refers, primarily, to their common language. Genetic research on both DNA and blood groups has established that GCs and TCs are part of the same gene pool, which is distinct from that of either "mainland" country. GCs are genetically more akin with people from West Asia (the Levant) and North Africa than Greece. Therefore, they are not "ethnic Greeks". It is the same with "Arabs", peoples who share the same common language, Arabic, but not necessarily the same ethnicity.
See these sources for a starter: [1] [2] [3]
— Olympian ( talk) 18:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
i took the liberty of removing a link about "Holiday villas for rent in cyprus, paphos". also, the US population source is a facebook group, and i can't find the relevant info in it (although i may have missed it). k kisses 00:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Facebook and Amazon are not reliable sources! Can someone please change this, otherwise I will. Thank you. Turco85 ( Talk) 14:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
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There are more than one flag that are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world. File:Flag of EOKA.tif A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 10:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
more than one flag [...] are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world, you make it even harder, since you need to show sources for which of those flags, if any, is representative. If there are different subgroups using different flags, one could imagine some sort of gallery, but then each single flag would need to be sourced to its subgroup.
There are not any sources as the flag is unofficial but only in public use. The most common greek cypriot flag is the one that I already show you but with orange Cyprus. It is used not only by ultranationalists but as i said it's used by many others. https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cy%7Dgr.html https://www.interflag.gr/el/simaies-istorikes/892-greek-cyprus.html https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Greek-Cypriot-ENOTIKI-EOKA-Flag-5x3-100-x-150cm-Greece-Cyprus-Nationalists/222872359442?hash=item33e43a5212:g:87wAAOSw1RVabTce http://www.drasis-kes.org/2016/10/estin-oun-ellas-kai-i-kypros.html http://www.diakonima.gr/2012/03/26/επιμνημόσυνος-λόγος-για-τον-ήρωα-κυρι/enomenes-elliniki-kypriaki-simaia-03/ https://picclick.com/HQ-Greek-Cypriot-Flag-EOKA-ENOTIKH-322452592369.html http://www.epilekta.com/2018/02/blog-post_637.html http://www.defence-point.gr/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/APOEL-Simaia_EOKA.jpg https://antiparakmi.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/bc019-kyproselliniki.jpg A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 10:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
At this point you are wrong. This flag represents an ethnic group. Cypriots that are basically Greek. It is not political issue. If we don't put a flag like this one, we can just put a image of Greek Cypriots waving this flag without say in that is their flag. We can just say that is a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identity. In the infobox, we can put the Cyprus flag next to Greek. A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 12:29, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
This flagwhen there are so many different versions? 2) What evidence can you give that any of the many different flags
represents an ethnic groupas a whole and is
not political issue? 3) Why should we have a picture of
image of Greek Cypriots waving this flagunless we can call it their flag? 4) What is it about sources you do not understand? Please read WP:V and WP:RS. Text like
a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identityalso needs a source. 5) Finally: The Cyprus flag and the Greek flag are national flags. They can not be used to show ethnicity. No way! -- T*U ( talk) 13:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
You are from the occupited area, arent you? A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 14:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
ok A. Katechis Mpourtoulis ( talk) 15:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Sarno et al. 2017 conclude that: In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’. On the other hand, the continental part of Greece, including Peloponnesus, appears as slightly differentiated, by clustering with the other Southern Balkan populations of Albania and Kosovo.
, but Demetrios only included the first part of the conclusion. Why isn't the article mentioning the full conclusion?
Other parts I added from the source:
Greek Cypriots are differentiated by Turkish Cypriots in some aspects. Turkish Cypriots have 5.6% Eastern Eurasian (likely Central Asian/Turkic) and 2.1% North African ancestry, while Greek Cypriots have 0.6% Eastern Eurasian and no North African ancestry.Heraclides et al. 2017:
One additional difference between GCy and TCy was the presence of moderate numbers of East Eurasian (primarily Central Asian) Y-haplogroups and small numbers of North African Y-haplogroups among TCy but not among GCy. The frequency of East Eurasian haplogroups among TCy was C-M130 (0.5%), H-L901 (0.3%), N-M231 (2.4%), O-M175 (0.8%) and Q-M242 (1.3%), reaching a total of 5.6%, but only totalling 0.6% among GCy. North African haplogroups (E-M81, E-V38) were only found among TCy (2.1%)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A major feature differentiating Cypriots from Greeks, is the much lower frequency of haplogroups I (2.9% GCy, 7.3% TCy, ~10–21% mainland Greeks) and R1a (2.9% GCy, 3.2% TCy, ~10–22% mainland Greeks) among the former. All differences in haplogroup frequencies between populations were statistically significant (Fisher’s Exact test, p<0.001).
About 24% of all Cypriots are descendants of Levantine migrations from the Neolithic to the present era.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A previous study analyzing detailed SNP data for determining ancient ancestry among Cypriots, revealed that around 24% of Cypriot patrilinages are descendent from the Levant, derived from migrations occurring from the Neolithic and throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages
Why are they source misrepresentation? @ Khirurg: has to explain reverts. Genetic studies have been used selectively. All differences between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks have been removed, similarities between Greek and Turkish Cypriots and differences between Turkish Cypriots and Turks have been overemphasized because there is omission of the full studies. Also, where in any source I mentioned, is there any "aggressive POV"? Ahmet Q. ( talk) 01:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
the ethnicity calculation is done separately from Genetic Groups using older technology that is outdated and in need of an overhaul. We are working on replacing the Ethnicity Estimates right now, and in 2021 plan to roll out much better ones based on totally new technology.Until the end of 2021, we'll get better results about population clusters. @ Demetrios1993: The Greek peninsula has historically been the demographic concentration point for the central and southern Balkans. Pre-medieval links may mask ghost populations which belonged to the same general cluster as the ancestors of Albanians, but I think that Pre-Proto-Albanians and MBA/LBA Proto-Greeks weren't that different overall.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethnicities are comprised of several Genetic Groups. Genetic Groups in this ethnicity offer you a more detailed understanding of the geographic regions your ancestors came from.So, "ethnicities" are relevant broader groups, while "genetic groups" are more refined categories. But still, by viewing a number of them, i was able to see that each has a different timeline which generally dates back to 1600-1900 CE, thus not that ancient. As for the second point you address Maleschreiber, i do agree with you that the ancestors of Albanians and Greeks, from an autosomal (atDNA) perspective, generally belonged to the same macro-cluster (comprised of the central and southern Balkans, as well as southern Italy and probably western Anatolia) from at least the Iron Age. Though, i wouldn't personally support that either pre-proto-Greeks or pre-proto-Albanians belonged to it. Pre-proto-Greeks certainly didn't belong to it, because they would have been predominantly Yamnaya-like (generally 50% EHG and 50% CHG) in admixture; i am thinking members of the Catacomb culture as likely candidates. Likewise, the identity of pre-proto-Albanians, though admittedly palaeo-Balkan, is still a debated subject, with most hypotheses being revolved around Illyrians, Daco-Moesians, or Thracians; even a combination of the aforementioned in varying degrees, and these people didn't constitute a single autosomal cluster. Personally, due to my view that the proto-Albanian Urheimat was within these boundaries i created, i believe there was a degree of hybridization because this area – especially during the early Roman imperial period – was probably the most multi-ethnic in the Balkans, with at least four linguistic groups being present; namely Illyrian proper, Dalmatian-Pannonian, Thracian proper and Moesian (sub-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian), and as if those were not enough, the Romans in the 1st century CE allowed two mass relocations of more than 150,000 Geto-Dacians (trans-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian) to Moesia Superior and Moesia Inferior (50,000 in the years of Augustus and over 100,000 in the years of Nero). By the way, this triangular area i show is based on the borders of the Drina river that separates the Eastern Balkan Romance from the Western Balkan Romance, the Jireček line that separates Latin from Greek as lingua francas, and the Danube separating the Latin-speaking Romans from Barbaricum; all relevant for understanding proto-Albanian. Regardless of all that, i would like to point out that Greek-Albanian autosomal affinity is also based on the fact that the two populations have almost identical frequencies for the three main European ancestral groups – Western Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers and Yamnaya – as shown in this three-way mixture model (Figure 3) published here. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Ahmet Q: You want me to point out how your edits are aggressively POV and intellectually dishonest? By all means.
A 2017 study, found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene poolto
A 2017 study (Heraclides et al), found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene pool or can be explained via the introduction of Turkish patrilineal ancestry and heavy admixture with the local Greek Cypriot population. This refers to
this high percentage of shared haplotypes between them could be explained either by a common local (pre-Ottoman) ancestry for both communities and a recent (few centuries) divergence (scenario 1 in Introduction), or a non-local (i.e. Turkish) paternal origin of TCy and extensive mixing with the local GCy population during the Ottoman era (scenario 2 in Introduction)in the paper. But if you read the paper in its entirety, or cited it faithfully, you would have seen that the paper states 1)
This analysis reveals that none of these are found in Turkey (S11 Table), which does not support a Turkish origin of GCy-TCy shared haplotypesand 2)
This observation thus further strengthens the notion of a common paternal ancestry between GCy and TCy (scenario 1)and 3)
In fact, Greeks show similar differentiation from both GCy and TCy (i.e., they are equally distant from them), which, further supports scenario 1 (common local ancestry of GCy and TCy) rather than scenario 2 (recent non-local ancestry of TCy and subsequent intermixing with GCy)and 4)
Concentrating to more recent history, the lack of shared haplotypes observed between GCy and Turks in the current study, indicates an apparently null (or extremely limited) penetration of Turkish paternal haplotypes into the GCy gene pool, despite 300 years of Ottoman rule of the islandand 5)
the moderate genetic differentiation (Rst) between TCy and Turks (Table 2) does not support the notion that TCy primarily derive from the same paternal gene pool as mainland Turks (scenario 2 in Introduction). Even the abstract (surely you read the abstract?) states:
reveals that despite some differences in haplotype sharing and haplogroup structure, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots share primarily a common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry. Thus, the source clearly supports scenario 1 (that GCy and TCy share a common pre-Ottoman origin) in favor of scenario 2 (post-Ottoman admixture as the source of genetic similarity between GCy and TCy). Your edits explicitly removed that part and instead made it seem like the source gives equal support to scenario 1 and scenario 2, which is absolutely not the case. It's as if you are trying to mislead the readers into thinking that the paper supports a more "Turkish" origin for GCy, which the paper explicitly contradicts. Why did you do this? Did you not read the paper in its entirety (incompetence) or did you read it in its entirety but decided to leave the "inconvenient" parts out (intellectual dishonesty)? Were you hoping no one would notice?
The frequency of total haplotypes shared [a] between Greek and Turkish Cypriots is 7-8%, with analysis showing that none of these being found in Turkey, thus not supporting a Turkish origin for the shared haplotypes., even though it is backed by the source. Why did you do this?
About 24% of all Cypriots are descendants of Levantine migrations from the Neolithic to the present era, but again, that's NOT what the source says. It say:
A previous study analyzing detailed SNP data for determining ancient ancestry among Cypriots, revealed that around 24% of Cypriot patrilinages are descendent from the Levant. Do you see the difference? If not, you shouldn't dabble in genetics.
Furthermore, from the Greek sub-populations, Cretan Greeks were found to be the closest to Cypriots.even though that is also backed by the source.
Albania, Kosovo and mainland Greece are "slightly differentiated" and cluster togetheris off-topic as it has nothing to do with the topic of the article. Why did you add it?
In summary, it seems in your edits you a) misquoted and selectively quoted the source to push a particular POV, b) removed sourced content that didn't fit that POV, and c) added off-topic material to further push POV. Your edits are POV in their entirety, so do not even think about trying to ram them through by force. This article is outside your usual area of interest. Can you explain to us your sudden interest in it? Because I can't help avoid the impression that your edits here have an ulterior motive. I hope that is not the case. Oh, and one last thing: This had better be the last time you refer to me as usual POV-pushing editor
. Clear?
Khirurg (
talk) 20:52, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece.Heraclides et al. 2017:
A major feature differentiating Cypriots from Greeks, is the much lower frequency of haplogroups I (2.9% GCy, 7.3% TCy, ~10–21% mainland Greeks) and R1a (2.9% GCy, 3.2% TCy, ~10–22% mainland Greeks) among the former. All differences in haplogroup frequencies between populations were statistically significant (Fisher’s Exact test, p<0.001).Why was this removed? It's a faithful reproduction of information from the article.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
These haplogroup differences indicate differential migrations into Cyprus and mainland Greece, at different points in history and prehistory. I2 is considered the major haplogroup among Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherers[60], who apparently were either absent from Cyprus or were totally diluted (nearly extinguished) by subsequent migrations. Although the exact origins and migratory patterns of R1a and R1b are still under rigorous investigation, it seems that they are linked to Bronze Age migrations from the Western Eurasian Steppe and Eastern Europe into Southern (including Greece) and Western Europe[61]. Apparently, such migrations (especially as regards R1a) into Cyprus were limited.. The paper also states:
In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, indicating deeper shared paternal ancestry than the shared haplotype analysis, Greeks appear genetically close to CypriotsSo we can't just cherry pick the parts you like out of context, you see? We have to be intellectually honest and give the full picture. Additionally, the paper state
However, despite the very low genetic differentiation between Cypriots, Calabrian Italians, and Lebanese, the former appear to differentiate, in terms of Y-haplogroup frequencies, both from Middle Eastern (including Lebanese) and from Southeast European Mediterranean (including South Italians) populations. The main feature distinguishing Cypriots from Lebanese and other Middle Easterners included in our analysis is their much lower frequency of haplogroup J1. This observation clearly suggests that although Cypriots and Lebanese share common paternal roots, the latter received a substantial influx from populations high in J1, probably during the early Arab conquest era (7th cent. AD).. So there are important difference between the Cypriots and Lebanese, yet you do not seem at all interested in that. Why is that? Btw, you did not answer my question: Why the sudden interest in this topic? Could it be that you came here to back Ahmet Q, who clearly stalked Demetrios1993 here, and got into a discussion he seems to be having...difficulty with? As for an RfC, I would like to remind you that nothing gets added without consensus. And if the usual tag team of Balkan accounts of a particular ethnicity shows up and starts to spam the RfC with !votes (as with every RfC you seem involved in), be aware that I will seek as much admin oversight as possible, up to and including arbitration. If I were you, I really wouldn't want to draw attention to this kind of behavior. Khirurg ( talk) 02:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The major differentiating characteristic between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the very low frequency of R1a and I haplogroups among the latter in comparison to the population of mainland Greece. The biggest differentiation factor between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners including the Lebanese is their much lower frequency of haplogroup J1.If this can't be agreed on, I'll ask if it should be included via RfC. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 17:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, which indicate deeper shared paternal ancestry than shared haplotypes, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots, and equidistant from Greek and Turkish Cypriots. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroups, the major difference between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the low frequency of haplogroups, I2, R1a and R1b among Greek Cypriots in comparison to the population of mainland Greece. The biggest differentiation factor between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners including the Lebanese is the much lower frequency of haplogroup J1 among Greel Cypriots.. I could possibly agree to something like that. Khirurg ( talk) 14:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I am ok with the following text: In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, which indicate deeper shared paternal ancestry than shared haplotypes, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots, and equidistant from Greek and Turkish Cypriots. Both Greek and Turkish Cypriots have similar frequencies for their major patrilineal haplogroups, with the main subclades for both being J2a-M410 (23.8% and 20.3% resp.), E-M78 (12.8% and 13.9% resp.) and G2-P287 (12.5% and 13.7% resp.). The biggest differentiating characteristic between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks is the low frequency of haplogroups I, R1a, and R1b among the former, while the biggest differentiating characteristic between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners (including the Lebanese) is the much lower frequency of haplogroup J1 among the former. Greek Cypriots are also differentiated by Turkish Cypriots in some aspects; namely Turkish Cypriots have 5.6% Eastern Eurasian (likely Central Asian/Turkic) and 2.1% North African patrilineal ancestry, while Greek Cypriots have 0.6% Eastern Eurasian and no North African patrilineal ancestry.
Demetrios1993 (
talk) 20:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
References
This section does not seem to have anything to do with the history of the Greek Cypriots. In particular it does not establish a connection between the Greek Cypriot people and that period.
It mentions how archeological evidence suggests an unsystematic Greek settlement of the island which occurred from 1400 BC and how that accelerated further down-the-line but it makes no effort to establish a link between the modern Greek Cypriots and the "Greek" (Mycenaean-Dorian) cultures to which reference is being made.
Have there been any studies that establish a direct, unbroken ethnolinguistic heritage between the Mycenaeans, Dorians and the modern Greek Cypriots?
Maybe in the meantime this section can do with a disclaimer (does one exist?) that says "although this is being used by XXXX to suggest a connection no actual connection has thus far been established"?
Perhaps the ambiguous usage of the word Greek here could also do with a revision? Nargothronde ( talk) 07:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
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