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I was hoping it here would be any information about their Ancient contact (The Latins, Etruscan and Greek peoples). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.149.248 ( talk) 23:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
same religion,similar way of life,trading but not many interactions with each other.greeks had lived in sicily( Magna Grecia or "Μεγάλη Ελλάδα") and calabria, where there are still ancestors of greeks, see griko people. alexander conquered the east, and italy the west. after the death of alexander greeks occupated in the east and greece was weakened so romans invades greece, but because of the same religion and lifestyle greeks and romans managed to live together. so when constantinople(New Rome) was found it was a Greco-Roman empire. basically greeks and romans are the same people, not same race but very similar people (Una Razza Una Faccia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.130.80.35 ( talk) 09:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
At the end of the History section, I deleted the following [grammatically incorrect] excerpt:
Aside from the fact that whoever wrote this didn't even bother to provide a source for these figures, the author of these sentences also makes a huge mistake of confusing "Greek" with "Greek Orthodox". The two are NOT the same. The Greek-speaking Griko community of Southern Italy is Catholic, mostly of Byzantine Rite but also Latin Rite. Venice, on the other hand, does indeed have an old [and very small] Greek Orthodox community, but it's mostly replenished by newly arrived Greek citizens, as Greeks in Italy have historically assimilated quickly. As for "200,000 Roman Catholic Italians or people of Italian descent" in Greece, this is also a shaky claim. It's true that there are many Italian citizens living in Greece, and Italians have indeed moved to Greece throughout the centuries. But the Greek state does not recognize them as an official minority and -apart from actual Italian citizens having recently moved to Greece- we don't know how many native-born Greeks may have some distant Italian ancestry; most such Greeks don't even consider themselves Italian, let alone know about their ancestry. Additionally, native Roman Catholics in Greece are mostly the result of Venetian and Genoese influence -rather than Italian immigration- and are mostly concentrated in the Cyclades (especially Syros and Santorini), not the Ionians. Ionian Italians completely assimilated and intermarried into the Greek Orthodox population. Skyduster ( talk) 18:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello! Greeks and Italians (mainly those who live in Southern Italy) refer to each other by the statement "Una Faccia Una Razza", which means One Face, One Race, and reflects the strong cultural bounds between the 2 ancient nations. While I may have no official governmental sources, I, however, have multiple sources from internet (newspapers in both countries, commonsfolk, etc). Many Greeks, in real life, including me, are referring to the Italians as brothers from ancient times, and many Italian friends of mine do the same. I don't know who added the "Una Faccia Una Razza" on the Wikipedia's article about the relations between Italy and Greece, but I believe, and I am confident, that this political phrase in fact reflects how close the cultural bonds between Greece and Italy are, and the shared historical relationships between the 2 nations since Roman times, the Renaissance, and up to the modern times. I do not see why this phrase should be removed, so please give explanation or sources that the Una Faccia Una Razza has nothing to do about Greco-Italian relations, before removing it. -- SilentResident ( talk) 03:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(undent)
Despite the discussion above, we still have no solid sources for the origins, history, and meanings of the phrase Una faccia una razza. I can believe that it was an Italian Fascist slogan, but we still need some reliable sources. -- Macrakis ( talk) 19:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The present version of the article is full of unsubstantiated and unencyclopedic claims, reading like an elementary-school civics book. The article is about the diplomatic relations of the modern Greek state and the modern Italian state. Phrases in the lead like "strong historical friendship", "deep cultural ties", "perfect bonds", and the like belong perhaps in diplomatic communiqués, press releases, and schoolbooks, but not in encyclopedias. In addition, as discussed in the Talk section above, we do not have good sources for the origin and meanings of the phrase "Una faccia una razza", but in any case, it seems peculiar to call this a "political statement".
Further down, the article talks says "The historical ties between the two nations date back to the ancient times, when Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome laid the foundations of the Western Civilization. The subsequent common heritage also has strengthened further the bonds between the two people." This is historically naive in a multitude of ways. What's more, it is talking about the "bonds between the two people [sic]", but this article is about relations between two states. It is not the same thing. After all, consider, say, North and South Korea. They surely have incredibly strong and ancient cultural bonds, being essentially one people speaking one language. But politically, the two states are deeply antagonistic. Or consider the common (Eastern) Roman and Ottoman heritage of Greece and Turkey; did that "strengthen the bonds between the two peoples" politically?
I edited the article to remove some of these oversimplifications, but User:SilentResident has restored the text above. I would appreciate it if SilentResident would explain his rationale, and other editors would comment. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Re. these reverts [2] [3]: the phrase "refers to" is being misused here. See WP:Refers to for an explanation why this kind of phrasing is a use–mention mismatch. Relations don't "refer to" relations; they are relations (and once you see that, you also see that the whole sentence is tautological). I'm going to reinstate the correct wording one more time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
So apparently there is some longer history of edit-warring over that wretched "una faccia" meme. One notorious agenda editor, SilentResident ( talk · contribs), has now edit-warred it back into the page at least 12 times over the last few years [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]; add to this another round dozen reverts by some IP editor and occasional throwaway sock accounts. The version reinserted has four footnotes, three of which are bare-url deadlinks without any bibliographical information, none of which looks like they ever pointed to anything reliable and pertinent. The fourth is a naked link to the works of Pausanias(!); how on earth did anybody think that could be used as a reference here?!
Now, looking around a bit, it turns out there actually is a bit of potential sourcing out there. From what I can find:
Just a few random book links for anybody who wishes to pursue this further: [15] [16]
Does any of this belong in the article? Most certainly not, as long as it is as ridiculously mis-sourced as it is now. Plus, not as long as its connection to the topic of the article isn't clarified. This article is about the political and diplomatic relations between Greece and Italy. It is not about popular perceptions of ethnic/cultural affinities between peoples as expressed through popular sayings – unless somebody can show, with reliable sources, that there is a demonstrable connection between the popular perception and the political reality. The original version of this statement as edit-warred over by SilentResident until 2015 made the grandly naive WP:OR claim that the saying actually came about as the effect of "more than two millennia of shared heritage" (obviously, entirely unsourced). The current version is a bit watered down, but still claims that the saying is used to "describe the deep historical, cultural and ethnic closeness of the two peoples", still strongly implying that such a "deep closeness" is an actual reality (obviously, still entirely unsourced). This is obviously unacceptable.
I'll be removing that passage again. SilentResident: if you reinsert it once more, this goes straight into your current section at WP:AE with a request for wide-scope topic ban for long-term agenda edit-warring. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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Re this [17] revert: you need to learn what primary and secondary sources are. Newspapers aren't either the one or the other, as such. All sources can be either primary or secondary sources, depending on what you are using them for. When you are talking about language, i.e. the use of a word or phrase, then a primary source is any source where that phrase is simply used. A secondary source is one where somebody talks about the phrase, i.e. discusses/analyses its use. None of the sources you cited does anything like that. Simply quoting somebody who uses the term doesn't count here; the only thing that counts is actual analysis, making the phrase as such the object of the author's discussion. You were simply collecting bits where you found somebody using that phrase, and forming your own narrative and conclusions about the phrase on that basis. That's the very paradigm of WP:SYNTH. This will be reverted again; your usual instant-revert-warring response won't help you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I was hoping it here would be any information about their Ancient contact (The Latins, Etruscan and Greek peoples). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.149.248 ( talk) 23:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
same religion,similar way of life,trading but not many interactions with each other.greeks had lived in sicily( Magna Grecia or "Μεγάλη Ελλάδα") and calabria, where there are still ancestors of greeks, see griko people. alexander conquered the east, and italy the west. after the death of alexander greeks occupated in the east and greece was weakened so romans invades greece, but because of the same religion and lifestyle greeks and romans managed to live together. so when constantinople(New Rome) was found it was a Greco-Roman empire. basically greeks and romans are the same people, not same race but very similar people (Una Razza Una Faccia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.130.80.35 ( talk) 09:00, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
At the end of the History section, I deleted the following [grammatically incorrect] excerpt:
Aside from the fact that whoever wrote this didn't even bother to provide a source for these figures, the author of these sentences also makes a huge mistake of confusing "Greek" with "Greek Orthodox". The two are NOT the same. The Greek-speaking Griko community of Southern Italy is Catholic, mostly of Byzantine Rite but also Latin Rite. Venice, on the other hand, does indeed have an old [and very small] Greek Orthodox community, but it's mostly replenished by newly arrived Greek citizens, as Greeks in Italy have historically assimilated quickly. As for "200,000 Roman Catholic Italians or people of Italian descent" in Greece, this is also a shaky claim. It's true that there are many Italian citizens living in Greece, and Italians have indeed moved to Greece throughout the centuries. But the Greek state does not recognize them as an official minority and -apart from actual Italian citizens having recently moved to Greece- we don't know how many native-born Greeks may have some distant Italian ancestry; most such Greeks don't even consider themselves Italian, let alone know about their ancestry. Additionally, native Roman Catholics in Greece are mostly the result of Venetian and Genoese influence -rather than Italian immigration- and are mostly concentrated in the Cyclades (especially Syros and Santorini), not the Ionians. Ionian Italians completely assimilated and intermarried into the Greek Orthodox population. Skyduster ( talk) 18:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello! Greeks and Italians (mainly those who live in Southern Italy) refer to each other by the statement "Una Faccia Una Razza", which means One Face, One Race, and reflects the strong cultural bounds between the 2 ancient nations. While I may have no official governmental sources, I, however, have multiple sources from internet (newspapers in both countries, commonsfolk, etc). Many Greeks, in real life, including me, are referring to the Italians as brothers from ancient times, and many Italian friends of mine do the same. I don't know who added the "Una Faccia Una Razza" on the Wikipedia's article about the relations between Italy and Greece, but I believe, and I am confident, that this political phrase in fact reflects how close the cultural bonds between Greece and Italy are, and the shared historical relationships between the 2 nations since Roman times, the Renaissance, and up to the modern times. I do not see why this phrase should be removed, so please give explanation or sources that the Una Faccia Una Razza has nothing to do about Greco-Italian relations, before removing it. -- SilentResident ( talk) 03:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(undent)
Despite the discussion above, we still have no solid sources for the origins, history, and meanings of the phrase Una faccia una razza. I can believe that it was an Italian Fascist slogan, but we still need some reliable sources. -- Macrakis ( talk) 19:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The present version of the article is full of unsubstantiated and unencyclopedic claims, reading like an elementary-school civics book. The article is about the diplomatic relations of the modern Greek state and the modern Italian state. Phrases in the lead like "strong historical friendship", "deep cultural ties", "perfect bonds", and the like belong perhaps in diplomatic communiqués, press releases, and schoolbooks, but not in encyclopedias. In addition, as discussed in the Talk section above, we do not have good sources for the origin and meanings of the phrase "Una faccia una razza", but in any case, it seems peculiar to call this a "political statement".
Further down, the article talks says "The historical ties between the two nations date back to the ancient times, when Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome laid the foundations of the Western Civilization. The subsequent common heritage also has strengthened further the bonds between the two people." This is historically naive in a multitude of ways. What's more, it is talking about the "bonds between the two people [sic]", but this article is about relations between two states. It is not the same thing. After all, consider, say, North and South Korea. They surely have incredibly strong and ancient cultural bonds, being essentially one people speaking one language. But politically, the two states are deeply antagonistic. Or consider the common (Eastern) Roman and Ottoman heritage of Greece and Turkey; did that "strengthen the bonds between the two peoples" politically?
I edited the article to remove some of these oversimplifications, but User:SilentResident has restored the text above. I would appreciate it if SilentResident would explain his rationale, and other editors would comment. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Re. these reverts [2] [3]: the phrase "refers to" is being misused here. See WP:Refers to for an explanation why this kind of phrasing is a use–mention mismatch. Relations don't "refer to" relations; they are relations (and once you see that, you also see that the whole sentence is tautological). I'm going to reinstate the correct wording one more time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
So apparently there is some longer history of edit-warring over that wretched "una faccia" meme. One notorious agenda editor, SilentResident ( talk · contribs), has now edit-warred it back into the page at least 12 times over the last few years [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]; add to this another round dozen reverts by some IP editor and occasional throwaway sock accounts. The version reinserted has four footnotes, three of which are bare-url deadlinks without any bibliographical information, none of which looks like they ever pointed to anything reliable and pertinent. The fourth is a naked link to the works of Pausanias(!); how on earth did anybody think that could be used as a reference here?!
Now, looking around a bit, it turns out there actually is a bit of potential sourcing out there. From what I can find:
Just a few random book links for anybody who wishes to pursue this further: [15] [16]
Does any of this belong in the article? Most certainly not, as long as it is as ridiculously mis-sourced as it is now. Plus, not as long as its connection to the topic of the article isn't clarified. This article is about the political and diplomatic relations between Greece and Italy. It is not about popular perceptions of ethnic/cultural affinities between peoples as expressed through popular sayings – unless somebody can show, with reliable sources, that there is a demonstrable connection between the popular perception and the political reality. The original version of this statement as edit-warred over by SilentResident until 2015 made the grandly naive WP:OR claim that the saying actually came about as the effect of "more than two millennia of shared heritage" (obviously, entirely unsourced). The current version is a bit watered down, but still claims that the saying is used to "describe the deep historical, cultural and ethnic closeness of the two peoples", still strongly implying that such a "deep closeness" is an actual reality (obviously, still entirely unsourced). This is obviously unacceptable.
I'll be removing that passage again. SilentResident: if you reinsert it once more, this goes straight into your current section at WP:AE with a request for wide-scope topic ban for long-term agenda edit-warring. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:51, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Re this [17] revert: you need to learn what primary and secondary sources are. Newspapers aren't either the one or the other, as such. All sources can be either primary or secondary sources, depending on what you are using them for. When you are talking about language, i.e. the use of a word or phrase, then a primary source is any source where that phrase is simply used. A secondary source is one where somebody talks about the phrase, i.e. discusses/analyses its use. None of the sources you cited does anything like that. Simply quoting somebody who uses the term doesn't count here; the only thing that counts is actual analysis, making the phrase as such the object of the author's discussion. You were simply collecting bits where you found somebody using that phrase, and forming your own narrative and conclusions about the phrase on that basis. That's the very paradigm of WP:SYNTH. This will be reverted again; your usual instant-revert-warring response won't help you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC)