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Mussolini joined the Axis by declaring war on France and the British Empire on 10 June 1940. To use the term "the Allies" is misleading as there were no other countries in the war at that stage. ( 165.120.184.91 ( talk) 15:18, 3 August 2016 (UTC))
Taking into account some of the above discussions about how the analysis section should be presented, a couple of paragraphs which deal with the Greek morale and the importance of the Greek resistance will be fine additions:
Anti-Italian feeling among the Greek public was reinforced after the sinking of "Elli", on August 15, 1940, [1] while Greek optimism that the Italian attack will fail was evident from the first moments of the war. [2] Thus, from the very first hours the war became known a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys", as the Italians were pejoratively called. [3]
Various factors have contributed to the high morale of the Greek side and the subsequent repulsion of the Italian attacks: the strong feeling of justice, the specialized and well trained military personnel of the Greek army and its leadership, as well as the devotion of the civilian population who lived next to the battlefields, including women and children, to the Greek cause. [4] Public opinion in Greece still accepts that the failure of the numerical superior Italian army came as a result of its unjustified action against Greece. [5]
After the Italian troops were successfully driven from Greek soil Greek morale was further strengthened. [6] The bravery and the high moral of the Greek units was also acknowledged by the Italian leadership. [7] The Greek successes against Italy helped raise morale in Allied Europe and showed that the Axis was not invincible. Inspired by these military developments, British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, declared that "today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks". [8]
Although the advance of the Greek army stalled at January 1941, due to harsh winter conditions and the Italian reinforcements, Greece had managed to secure a strong bridgehead in southern Albania. Thus, it didn't only provide a humiliation to Musolini but also occupied an area inhabited by a substantial ethnic Greek population. [9]
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 112: "Undoubtedly a solid anti-Italian sentimental substratum had developed among public opinion, despite the conventional propriety that the dictatorship of Metaxas was trying to maintain. Following the torpedoing of 窶慴片ィ窶, on 15th August 1940 at Tinos, on the nameday of the Virgin Mary, the sentimental charging, in combination with the injustice and the insult to the Orthodox religious tradition, reached its peak. "
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 112: Besides, official propaganda, as well as the spontaneous reaction of the people created the optimism which was necessary for the first difficult moments.
- ^ Carr, 2013, p. 39: "At 6.00 am air raid sirens woke the Athenians who quickly filled the streets and squares in a paroxism of patriotic fervour. Newspapers rushed out special Monday morning editions with screaming headlines and ecstatic editorials whipping up public enthousiasm- if it really needed whipping up- for a stern lesson to be delivered to the 'macaroni-boys' (makaronades)..."
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 121: The optimism of the Greek rank and file reinforced by his ignorance which 窶彭id not cause any hesitation窶; the familiar smile of the soldier; his satisfactory training; the adequately organized mobilization; the strong feeling of justice which had been deceitfully and crudely offended by a coarse Italian propaganda; the capable NCOs and officers, from the rank of platoon leader to that of regiment or division commander who reacted adroitly and very quickly carried out successful decisions, whether they concerned artillery firing or mortar shots or the capture of strategic points; the biological superiority of mountain or rural population (especially people from Epirus, Roumeli, Macedonia, Thessaly), which made up the biggest mass of the infantry forces; the complete devotion of the non-combatant people (women, old people and children) living on the border line (of Epirus and Western Macedonia); the extremely unfavorable weather conditions, which hindered both sides equally, but which were more adverse for the attacker. These are, I believe, the most important factors which made a joint contribution to a profound psychological transformation, which changed the defender into a ruthless attacker, regardless of any sacrifice, at any cost.
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 113: "Still, inexorable questions are put forth to the historian: what is the content, finally, of the 窶徇iracle窶 or of those glorious days of war in Albania if the Greek victors defeated an easy enemy, whose superiority in numbers and arms seemed to play a completely unimportant role. Strong proof of that optimistic over-simplification of probably the most serious factor, which has to do with the justification or non-justification of a military conflict, has survived up to date among the Greek public opinion: that is, that the Italian 窶徇acaronis窶 took to their heels and the Greeks nearly threw them into the sea."
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. p. 122: The unpublished and unknown up to now documents (memoranda, letters, plans) of Ubaldo Soddu (who did not write down his memoirs), Commander of the Italian forces in Albania from 10.11. to 30.12.1940, a critical period for the Italians, reveal the desperate efforts for control, the strict measures for unjustified retreats and abandonment of positions, the tragic appeal even for German help (on 24.11. and 17.12.1940).
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p.123: In his reports, Soddu analyzes the Greek tactics for attack; he acknowledges the bravery and the moral strength of the enemy; he points out, however, that during this period (end of November-December) the Greeks neither apply any new method pf military tactics, nor do they quickly take advantage of the land left back by the Italian retreat28. Mussolini, after the capture of Himara by the Greeks, does not doubt the contribution of high morale to the victory of the enemy (24.12.40).
- ^ Clogg, edited by Richard (2008). Bearing gifts to Greeksツ: humanitarian aid to Greece in the 1940s. Basingstoke [England]: Palgrave Macmillan. p.ツ4. ISBNツ 9780230500358.
Greece's military successes on the Albanian front moved Winston Churchill famously to declare 'today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks'.{{ cite book}}
:|first1=
has generic name ( help)- ^ Fisher, Bernd Jテシrgen (2007). Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. Purdue University Press. p.ツ194. ISBNツ 9781557534552.
A the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantage, provided the first victory against the Axis forces... Greek advances stalled in early January 1941, falling vitcim to the harsch winter and to Italian reinforcements. Nonetheless, the strong positioning of Greek forces in southern Albania provided not only humiliation for Musolini but also an unexpected gain for Greece, which now occupied an area inhabited by many Greeks that had been relegated to Albanian rule after the First World War.{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|1=
( help)
- Tsirpanlis, Zacharias N. (1992). "The Morale of the Greek and the Italian Soldier in the 1940-41 War". Balkan Studies. 33 (1): 111窶141. Retrieved 3 August 2016.
(for the analysis section) In 2009, Mazower wrote that the Italian invasion of Greece was a disaster and the "first Axis setback" of the war. Mussolini sent 140,000 poorly-equipped troops to attack, over some of the worst mountain country in Europe, at the beginning of winter. The Greeks repulsed the invasion, to the surprise of enemies and Allies alike, an event made worse by the Italian disasters in Libya, Eritrea and Ethiopia. After the German invasion of Greece, Italy gained a small empire in the Balkans, mainly to relieve Germany of the need to find garrisons and had to tolerate a collaborationist government in Athens. [1] Keith-264 ( talk) 13:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
References
ツDone
Keith-264 (
talk)
09:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
It has just come to my realization that a lot of well-sourced material that used to be in the article is now missing. See here for example [1]. All the material in the diff has been removed, even though it is well sourced and relevant. I move it be reintroduced in some form. Athenean ( talk) 03:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The Greco-Italian War (Greek: ホ偏サホサホキホスホソマ観ホアホサホケホコマ狐 ママ湖サホオホシホソマ Ellino-italikマ茎 pマ畦emos), also known as the Italo-Greek War and the Italian Campaign in Greece (Italian: Campagna italiana di Grecia), was a conflict between Fascist Italy and Greece which lasted from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The conflict marked the beginning of the Balkans campaign of World War II. The conflict morphed into the Battle of Greece with the intervention of Nazi Germany on 6 April 1941. In Greece, the war against Italy is known as the "War of '40", or the "Epic of '40".
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister[,] Ioannis Metaxas[,] rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.
On 28 October 1940, after Metaxas rejected an Italian ultimatum demanding the occupation of Greek territory, Italian forces invaded Greece from Albania. The Greek army counter-attacked and forced the Italians to retreat. By mid-December, the Greeks occupied nearly a quarter of Albania, tying down 530,000 Italian troops. In March 1941, Operation Spring (Operazione Primavera), an Italian counter-offensive failed and on 6 April, Nazi Germany intervened, invading Greece through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, beginning the Battle of Greece.
The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
Proposed Athenean ( talk) 03:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
I don't think that this is a swaggering claim of victory but a careful and nuanced summary of the article. Repulse, counter-offensive, land and 1940 seem pretty specific, not a claim about the Italo-Greek war per se. Certainly enough to justify Inconclusive or See Aftermath Section in the infobox. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@ everyone; I don't think any of us are happy with the compromises being negotiated but that we are all moving to a version we can live with (more or less) until new sources turn up that support one view or another. Clearly for us anglophones, the literature available is not comprehensive or easily available; I made an approach to the Greek general staff history section but I fear that they are busy with the ECB occupation. I'd like more detail on how both sides organised their war in Albania - signalling, engineering, roads, vehicles or pack animals, medical services, ammunition states, flows of reinforcements and replacements etc. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
In regards to Athenians' request, I have provided a rough suggestion largely based off the information in the article unless otherwise stated. In an effort to make discussion/argument/fighting easy, and to the point, I have broken each section up; so let the fun begin.
The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; Greek: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II and turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened in early 1941.
ツDone
Yes if the Germans are going to be mentioned. Became and turned into aren't quite right but I want to avoid flabby terms like overtaken, subsumed or escalated. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and occupied Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations, culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, ( a Greek religious festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece, which the Prime Minister, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected with the word 'ホ渮ホケ ("No!").
ツDone put the feast day in but you might want to modify the form.
The Italian army invaded Greece but the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, hampered by the mountainous Albanian-Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just over the border. The Greeks counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back over the Albanian frontier and occupied southern Albania. The Italian repulse and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprised everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking German intervention, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to go with the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition in repulsing the Italian offensive; the loss of imports and food shortages also undermined the Greek economy. The failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the dテゥbテ「cle against Greece and defeats against the British in Africa.
From 4 March 窶 2 April 1941, British ground forces were sent to Greece and the Italian disaster led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek窶釘ritish forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated and in Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal, followed up slowly by the Italians, was cut off and surrendered to German troops (then to Italy for propaganda, days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses in the Greco-Italian War and after the Battle of Greece, the Axis partitioned Greece, which was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the Italian "Parallel War" against Greece (and the British in Africa), reduced Italy and the fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941.
Everything looks good here, except I would change "Greek" to "in Greece". Athenean ( talk) 04:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected.
I believe Mussolini asked for the surrender of Greek territory, that should be mentioned. The 15th August is a major (the most significant after Easter) religious holiday. Also, it's an Orthodox holiday, not just a Greek one. Otherwise looks good. Athenean ( talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected British troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa.
I believe the Italians invaded right on 28 October, within hours of Metaxas rejecting the ultimatum . That should be mentioned. Athenean ( talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Actually here's a version of the 3rd paragraph that I propose:
The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The invasion began disastrously, the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania being poorly led and equipped, and having to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army. By mid-November the Greek army had stopped the Italian invasion just inside Greek territory, and counter-attacked, pushing the Italians back into Albania, culminating with the Capture of Klisura Pass in January 1941. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed and by February there was a stalemate.
I've added some military details, and I think Metaxas' refusal of the RAF squadrons is not lede-worthy (although it is certainly article-worthy). Also, the stuff about the debacle exposing the failings of the fascist regime does not belong in this paragraph and is somewhat redundant with what is in the 4th paragraph. This paragraph should end with the stalemate in the Albanian front. Athenean ( talk) 05:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek窶釘ritish forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal and was followed up slowly by the Italians. After being cut off, the Greeks surrendered to German troops (and then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses before the Battle of Greece, after which Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the "Parallel War" against Greece and Britain reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
See below for my proposal for the 4th para:
In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek and British forces on the Bulgarian border were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
Really, this article is going from bad to worse. Something drastic needs to be done an done soon I'm afraid. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.104.189 ( talk) 11:58, 16 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool
Draft leadThe Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941. In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected. The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages and the economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa. In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek troops on the Bulgarian border and British troops in Macedonia were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany. OK? Keith-264 ( talk) 10:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
@Keith: That looks like an older version of the proposed lede with respect to the 3rd paragraph. See below for what I believe we had agreed on.
Oh, it also looks the "raised morale in Allied Europe" bit is missing, too. Athenean ( talk) 16:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Removal of objectionable materialI would really urge Wiki editors to please remove the derogatory quotation describing the gallant Italians who fought well and hard in the campaign as "macaroni boys" in the Analysis Section. It is both unnecessary and defamatory whether or not it is a quote from a "respectable author". "Respectful authors" are a dime a dozen these days anyway. The remark does nothing to add to the Analysis at all. Furthermore, while it is good to see that the article does not endorse the erroneous view that the campaign was a Greek victory when in fact, the Italian Army ended up occupying two thirds of the country, it is important to add a reference concerning the Greek surrender and surrender terms of the Italians. I think this is important so that the reader is left in no uncertain terms about the Campaign's final outcome. And why am I being accused of being a sock when I am not? Who was this AnnalesSchool anyway? 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.77.168 ( talk) 13:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC) |
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"from the very first hours of the war a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys" (Greek: ホ慚アホコホアマ∃ソホスホャホエホオマ, "Makaronades"), as the Italians were pejoratively called" SHOULD BE deleted or at the very least, the term, "macaroni boys" deleted.
Reference should be made in the Analysis section in one statement that the Greek Army surrendered to the Italians at a certain place and a certain time. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.87.226 ( talk) 14:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool
I was given the use of the rollback feature for rapid reverting of dodgy edits, which I've used several times in the last couple of days on this article, under the impression that there have been nuisance edits by a banned editor. If I was wrong and they were good faith edits please let me know. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 20:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Went through the analysis section after a complaint about citation and found the source. Moved some of the quotations to the notes section since they look like understandably comprehensive justifications (in the circumstances) for the sources' conclusions, not necessarily needed in the text. Quite happy to change this if desired. Keith-264 ( talk) 09:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
With a certain degree of temerity I would like to know if we're satisfied that the lead and analysis are at least good enough for now? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 14:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Reverted edits by 89.140.171.112 possible sock. Keith-264 ( talk) 21:24, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
This should be named the Helleno-Italian War because the name of the country is Hellas, and Greece is just a misnomer. CocoaSummer ( talk) 23:48, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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War begon on 1.september 1939 and not on the 3.september 1939 Michumich ( talk) 12:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The Axis had already lost the Battle of Britain, and the Italian invasion of France was repulsed. ( MikeyFinn ( talk) 13:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC))
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This article claims World War II started on 3 September while World War II claims 1 September.
Either one of these two is wrong or there is some nuance that requires additional explanation. I tried changing this article to match the more establish World War II article and it was reverted. If the World War II article is incorrect it should be corrected, but if this article is correct it needs a citation for the date.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 20:07, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello, Keith-264. I have reverted your last edit here because, first and foremost, neither my version, nor the version in place before you and I changed it, is 窶枠rammatically incorrect窶, as implied by your edit summary, since there is no universal agreement over what constitutes 窶歪orrectness窶 in the use or the non-use of commas in such a situation. So I have reverted your edit which suggests that there is, and that the rule you espouse is 窶歪orrect窶 and that anyone who disagrees is 窶亙ncorrect窶.
In the present context, as I stated before, I think the punctuation with the adverbial phrase should be as with a parenthetical phrase: two commas or none. Otherwise, it is like using only one parenthesis, and in this situation makes it appear that the adverbial phrase 窶彷rom 1939窶 is part of the preceding clause. Other options would be replacing the connecting 窶彗nd窶 with either a semi-colon or a full stop. Incidentally, I have just noticed a similar example earlier in the same paragraph, in the statement that 窶弩orld War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940,窶 which is just nonsensical without a comma after 窶1939窶.
In respect of your specific rule, "no commas next to conjunctions", I have never previously encountered this, through a grammar school education in England in the 1950s/1960s and in subsequent acquaintance with Fowler窶冱 Modern English Usage (2nd Edition). Indeed, Fowler's cites various contexts in which the use of a comma before 'and' is not just allowed but recommended, while there is no mention of a bar on using a comma after 窶和nd窶. The Wikipedia article on 窶呂ommas窶 states that: 窶彜ome style guides prescribe that two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) must be separated by a comma placed before the conjunction.窶 The website of the University of Bristol states that: 窶廣 comma should be used before these conjunctions: and, but, for, nor, yet, or, so to separate two independent clauses.窶 < http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_06.htm> I could add several other sources which all say the same.
I would be interested to know your source for the rule you are invoking. The only English grammar and style source which advocates it which I have been able to find is Strunk & White, but that is an American guide and so presumably one that you would regard as 窶從ot germane窶.
Since your mention of this 窶腕ule窶, I have been paying particular attention to the punctuation in a wide variety of texts, informal and formal, encountered in my everyday reading, both in print and on the internet (including Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia:Manual of Style), and I have seen many examples of commas used both before and after conjunctions. So I see virtually no support for this 'rule' in English style guides nor in general usage. Best regards. Blurryman ( talk) 00:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
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Mussolini joined the Axis by declaring war on France and the British Empire on 10 June 1940. To use the term "the Allies" is misleading as there were no other countries in the war at that stage. ( 165.120.184.91 ( talk) 15:18, 3 August 2016 (UTC))
Taking into account some of the above discussions about how the analysis section should be presented, a couple of paragraphs which deal with the Greek morale and the importance of the Greek resistance will be fine additions:
Anti-Italian feeling among the Greek public was reinforced after the sinking of "Elli", on August 15, 1940, [1] while Greek optimism that the Italian attack will fail was evident from the first moments of the war. [2] Thus, from the very first hours the war became known a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys", as the Italians were pejoratively called. [3]
Various factors have contributed to the high morale of the Greek side and the subsequent repulsion of the Italian attacks: the strong feeling of justice, the specialized and well trained military personnel of the Greek army and its leadership, as well as the devotion of the civilian population who lived next to the battlefields, including women and children, to the Greek cause. [4] Public opinion in Greece still accepts that the failure of the numerical superior Italian army came as a result of its unjustified action against Greece. [5]
After the Italian troops were successfully driven from Greek soil Greek morale was further strengthened. [6] The bravery and the high moral of the Greek units was also acknowledged by the Italian leadership. [7] The Greek successes against Italy helped raise morale in Allied Europe and showed that the Axis was not invincible. Inspired by these military developments, British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, declared that "today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks". [8]
Although the advance of the Greek army stalled at January 1941, due to harsh winter conditions and the Italian reinforcements, Greece had managed to secure a strong bridgehead in southern Albania. Thus, it didn't only provide a humiliation to Musolini but also occupied an area inhabited by a substantial ethnic Greek population. [9]
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 112: "Undoubtedly a solid anti-Italian sentimental substratum had developed among public opinion, despite the conventional propriety that the dictatorship of Metaxas was trying to maintain. Following the torpedoing of 窶慴片ィ窶, on 15th August 1940 at Tinos, on the nameday of the Virgin Mary, the sentimental charging, in combination with the injustice and the insult to the Orthodox religious tradition, reached its peak. "
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 112: Besides, official propaganda, as well as the spontaneous reaction of the people created the optimism which was necessary for the first difficult moments.
- ^ Carr, 2013, p. 39: "At 6.00 am air raid sirens woke the Athenians who quickly filled the streets and squares in a paroxism of patriotic fervour. Newspapers rushed out special Monday morning editions with screaming headlines and ecstatic editorials whipping up public enthousiasm- if it really needed whipping up- for a stern lesson to be delivered to the 'macaroni-boys' (makaronades)..."
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 121: The optimism of the Greek rank and file reinforced by his ignorance which 窶彭id not cause any hesitation窶; the familiar smile of the soldier; his satisfactory training; the adequately organized mobilization; the strong feeling of justice which had been deceitfully and crudely offended by a coarse Italian propaganda; the capable NCOs and officers, from the rank of platoon leader to that of regiment or division commander who reacted adroitly and very quickly carried out successful decisions, whether they concerned artillery firing or mortar shots or the capture of strategic points; the biological superiority of mountain or rural population (especially people from Epirus, Roumeli, Macedonia, Thessaly), which made up the biggest mass of the infantry forces; the complete devotion of the non-combatant people (women, old people and children) living on the border line (of Epirus and Western Macedonia); the extremely unfavorable weather conditions, which hindered both sides equally, but which were more adverse for the attacker. These are, I believe, the most important factors which made a joint contribution to a profound psychological transformation, which changed the defender into a ruthless attacker, regardless of any sacrifice, at any cost.
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. 113: "Still, inexorable questions are put forth to the historian: what is the content, finally, of the 窶徇iracle窶 or of those glorious days of war in Albania if the Greek victors defeated an easy enemy, whose superiority in numbers and arms seemed to play a completely unimportant role. Strong proof of that optimistic over-simplification of probably the most serious factor, which has to do with the justification or non-justification of a military conflict, has survived up to date among the Greek public opinion: that is, that the Italian 窶徇acaronis窶 took to their heels and the Greeks nearly threw them into the sea."
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p. p. 122: The unpublished and unknown up to now documents (memoranda, letters, plans) of Ubaldo Soddu (who did not write down his memoirs), Commander of the Italian forces in Albania from 10.11. to 30.12.1940, a critical period for the Italians, reveal the desperate efforts for control, the strict measures for unjustified retreats and abandonment of positions, the tragic appeal even for German help (on 24.11. and 17.12.1940).
- ^ Tsirpanlis, 1992, p.123: In his reports, Soddu analyzes the Greek tactics for attack; he acknowledges the bravery and the moral strength of the enemy; he points out, however, that during this period (end of November-December) the Greeks neither apply any new method pf military tactics, nor do they quickly take advantage of the land left back by the Italian retreat28. Mussolini, after the capture of Himara by the Greeks, does not doubt the contribution of high morale to the victory of the enemy (24.12.40).
- ^ Clogg, edited by Richard (2008). Bearing gifts to Greeksツ: humanitarian aid to Greece in the 1940s. Basingstoke [England]: Palgrave Macmillan. p.ツ4. ISBNツ 9780230500358.
Greece's military successes on the Albanian front moved Winston Churchill famously to declare 'today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks'.{{ cite book}}
:|first1=
has generic name ( help)- ^ Fisher, Bernd Jテシrgen (2007). Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. Purdue University Press. p.ツ194. ISBNツ 9781557534552.
A the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantage, provided the first victory against the Axis forces... Greek advances stalled in early January 1941, falling vitcim to the harsch winter and to Italian reinforcements. Nonetheless, the strong positioning of Greek forces in southern Albania provided not only humiliation for Musolini but also an unexpected gain for Greece, which now occupied an area inhabited by many Greeks that had been relegated to Albanian rule after the First World War.{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|1=
( help)
- Tsirpanlis, Zacharias N. (1992). "The Morale of the Greek and the Italian Soldier in the 1940-41 War". Balkan Studies. 33 (1): 111窶141. Retrieved 3 August 2016.
(for the analysis section) In 2009, Mazower wrote that the Italian invasion of Greece was a disaster and the "first Axis setback" of the war. Mussolini sent 140,000 poorly-equipped troops to attack, over some of the worst mountain country in Europe, at the beginning of winter. The Greeks repulsed the invasion, to the surprise of enemies and Allies alike, an event made worse by the Italian disasters in Libya, Eritrea and Ethiopia. After the German invasion of Greece, Italy gained a small empire in the Balkans, mainly to relieve Germany of the need to find garrisons and had to tolerate a collaborationist government in Athens. [1] Keith-264 ( talk) 13:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
References
ツDone
Keith-264 (
talk)
09:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
It has just come to my realization that a lot of well-sourced material that used to be in the article is now missing. See here for example [1]. All the material in the diff has been removed, even though it is well sourced and relevant. I move it be reintroduced in some form. Athenean ( talk) 03:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The Greco-Italian War (Greek: ホ偏サホサホキホスホソマ観ホアホサホケホコマ狐 ママ湖サホオホシホソマ Ellino-italikマ茎 pマ畦emos), also known as the Italo-Greek War and the Italian Campaign in Greece (Italian: Campagna italiana di Grecia), was a conflict between Fascist Italy and Greece which lasted from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The conflict marked the beginning of the Balkans campaign of World War II. The conflict morphed into the Battle of Greece with the intervention of Nazi Germany on 6 April 1941. In Greece, the war against Italy is known as the "War of '40", or the "Epic of '40".
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister[,] Ioannis Metaxas[,] rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.
On 28 October 1940, after Metaxas rejected an Italian ultimatum demanding the occupation of Greek territory, Italian forces invaded Greece from Albania. The Greek army counter-attacked and forced the Italians to retreat. By mid-December, the Greeks occupied nearly a quarter of Albania, tying down 530,000 Italian troops. In March 1941, Operation Spring (Operazione Primavera), an Italian counter-offensive failed and on 6 April, Nazi Germany intervened, invading Greece through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, beginning the Battle of Greece.
The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
Proposed Athenean ( talk) 03:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
I don't think that this is a swaggering claim of victory but a careful and nuanced summary of the article. Repulse, counter-offensive, land and 1940 seem pretty specific, not a claim about the Italo-Greek war per se. Certainly enough to justify Inconclusive or See Aftermath Section in the infobox. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@ everyone; I don't think any of us are happy with the compromises being negotiated but that we are all moving to a version we can live with (more or less) until new sources turn up that support one view or another. Clearly for us anglophones, the literature available is not comprehensive or easily available; I made an approach to the Greek general staff history section but I fear that they are busy with the ECB occupation. I'd like more detail on how both sides organised their war in Albania - signalling, engineering, roads, vehicles or pack animals, medical services, ammunition states, flows of reinforcements and replacements etc. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
In regards to Athenians' request, I have provided a rough suggestion largely based off the information in the article unless otherwise stated. In an effort to make discussion/argument/fighting easy, and to the point, I have broken each section up; so let the fun begin.
The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; Greek: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II and turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened in early 1941.
ツDone
Yes if the Germans are going to be mentioned. Became and turned into aren't quite right but I want to avoid flabby terms like overtaken, subsumed or escalated. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and occupied Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations, culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, ( a Greek religious festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece, which the Prime Minister, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected with the word 'ホ渮ホケ ("No!").
ツDone put the feast day in but you might want to modify the form.
The Italian army invaded Greece but the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, hampered by the mountainous Albanian-Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just over the border. The Greeks counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back over the Albanian frontier and occupied southern Albania. The Italian repulse and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprised everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking German intervention, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to go with the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition in repulsing the Italian offensive; the loss of imports and food shortages also undermined the Greek economy. The failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the dテゥbテ「cle against Greece and defeats against the British in Africa.
From 4 March 窶 2 April 1941, British ground forces were sent to Greece and the Italian disaster led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek窶釘ritish forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated and in Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal, followed up slowly by the Italians, was cut off and surrendered to German troops (then to Italy for propaganda, days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses in the Greco-Italian War and after the Battle of Greece, the Axis partitioned Greece, which was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the Italian "Parallel War" against Greece (and the British in Africa), reduced Italy and the fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941.
Everything looks good here, except I would change "Greek" to "in Greece". Athenean ( talk) 04:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected.
I believe Mussolini asked for the surrender of Greek territory, that should be mentioned. The 15th August is a major (the most significant after Easter) religious holiday. Also, it's an Orthodox holiday, not just a Greek one. Otherwise looks good. Athenean ( talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected British troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa.
I believe the Italians invaded right on 28 October, within hours of Metaxas rejecting the ultimatum . That should be mentioned. Athenean ( talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Actually here's a version of the 3rd paragraph that I propose:
The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The invasion began disastrously, the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania being poorly led and equipped, and having to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army. By mid-November the Greek army had stopped the Italian invasion just inside Greek territory, and counter-attacked, pushing the Italians back into Albania, culminating with the Capture of Klisura Pass in January 1941. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed and by February there was a stalemate.
I've added some military details, and I think Metaxas' refusal of the RAF squadrons is not lede-worthy (although it is certainly article-worthy). Also, the stuff about the debacle exposing the failings of the fascist regime does not belong in this paragraph and is somewhat redundant with what is in the 4th paragraph. This paragraph should end with the stalemate in the Albanian front. Athenean ( talk) 05:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek窶釘ritish forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal and was followed up slowly by the Italians. After being cut off, the Greeks surrendered to German troops (and then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses before the Battle of Greece, after which Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the "Parallel War" against Greece and Britain reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
See below for my proposal for the 4th para:
In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek and British forces on the Bulgarian border were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.
Really, this article is going from bad to worse. Something drastic needs to be done an done soon I'm afraid. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.104.189 ( talk) 11:58, 16 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool
Draft leadThe Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941. In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected. The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian窶敵reek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages and the economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa. In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek troops on the Bulgarian border and British troops in Macedonia were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek dテゥbテ「cle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany. OK? Keith-264 ( talk) 10:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
@Keith: That looks like an older version of the proposed lede with respect to the 3rd paragraph. See below for what I believe we had agreed on.
Oh, it also looks the "raised morale in Allied Europe" bit is missing, too. Athenean ( talk) 16:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Removal of objectionable materialI would really urge Wiki editors to please remove the derogatory quotation describing the gallant Italians who fought well and hard in the campaign as "macaroni boys" in the Analysis Section. It is both unnecessary and defamatory whether or not it is a quote from a "respectable author". "Respectful authors" are a dime a dozen these days anyway. The remark does nothing to add to the Analysis at all. Furthermore, while it is good to see that the article does not endorse the erroneous view that the campaign was a Greek victory when in fact, the Italian Army ended up occupying two thirds of the country, it is important to add a reference concerning the Greek surrender and surrender terms of the Italians. I think this is important so that the reader is left in no uncertain terms about the Campaign's final outcome. And why am I being accused of being a sock when I am not? Who was this AnnalesSchool anyway? 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.77.168 ( talk) 13:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC) |
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"from the very first hours of the war a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys" (Greek: ホ慚アホコホアマ∃ソホスホャホエホオマ, "Makaronades"), as the Italians were pejoratively called" SHOULD BE deleted or at the very least, the term, "macaroni boys" deleted.
Reference should be made in the Analysis section in one statement that the Greek Army surrendered to the Italians at a certain place and a certain time. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.87.226 ( talk) 14:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool
I was given the use of the rollback feature for rapid reverting of dodgy edits, which I've used several times in the last couple of days on this article, under the impression that there have been nuisance edits by a banned editor. If I was wrong and they were good faith edits please let me know. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 20:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Went through the analysis section after a complaint about citation and found the source. Moved some of the quotations to the notes section since they look like understandably comprehensive justifications (in the circumstances) for the sources' conclusions, not necessarily needed in the text. Quite happy to change this if desired. Keith-264 ( talk) 09:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
With a certain degree of temerity I would like to know if we're satisfied that the lead and analysis are at least good enough for now? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 14:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Reverted edits by 89.140.171.112 possible sock. Keith-264 ( talk) 21:24, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
This should be named the Helleno-Italian War because the name of the country is Hellas, and Greece is just a misnomer. CocoaSummer ( talk) 23:48, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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War begon on 1.september 1939 and not on the 3.september 1939 Michumich ( talk) 12:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The Axis had already lost the Battle of Britain, and the Italian invasion of France was repulsed. ( MikeyFinn ( talk) 13:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC))
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This article claims World War II started on 3 September while World War II claims 1 September.
Either one of these two is wrong or there is some nuance that requires additional explanation. I tried changing this article to match the more establish World War II article and it was reverted. If the World War II article is incorrect it should be corrected, but if this article is correct it needs a citation for the date.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 20:07, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello, Keith-264. I have reverted your last edit here because, first and foremost, neither my version, nor the version in place before you and I changed it, is 窶枠rammatically incorrect窶, as implied by your edit summary, since there is no universal agreement over what constitutes 窶歪orrectness窶 in the use or the non-use of commas in such a situation. So I have reverted your edit which suggests that there is, and that the rule you espouse is 窶歪orrect窶 and that anyone who disagrees is 窶亙ncorrect窶.
In the present context, as I stated before, I think the punctuation with the adverbial phrase should be as with a parenthetical phrase: two commas or none. Otherwise, it is like using only one parenthesis, and in this situation makes it appear that the adverbial phrase 窶彷rom 1939窶 is part of the preceding clause. Other options would be replacing the connecting 窶彗nd窶 with either a semi-colon or a full stop. Incidentally, I have just noticed a similar example earlier in the same paragraph, in the statement that 窶弩orld War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940,窶 which is just nonsensical without a comma after 窶1939窶.
In respect of your specific rule, "no commas next to conjunctions", I have never previously encountered this, through a grammar school education in England in the 1950s/1960s and in subsequent acquaintance with Fowler窶冱 Modern English Usage (2nd Edition). Indeed, Fowler's cites various contexts in which the use of a comma before 'and' is not just allowed but recommended, while there is no mention of a bar on using a comma after 窶和nd窶. The Wikipedia article on 窶呂ommas窶 states that: 窶彜ome style guides prescribe that two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) must be separated by a comma placed before the conjunction.窶 The website of the University of Bristol states that: 窶廣 comma should be used before these conjunctions: and, but, for, nor, yet, or, so to separate two independent clauses.窶 < http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_06.htm> I could add several other sources which all say the same.
I would be interested to know your source for the rule you are invoking. The only English grammar and style source which advocates it which I have been able to find is Strunk & White, but that is an American guide and so presumably one that you would regard as 窶從ot germane窶.
Since your mention of this 窶腕ule窶, I have been paying particular attention to the punctuation in a wide variety of texts, informal and formal, encountered in my everyday reading, both in print and on the internet (including Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia:Manual of Style), and I have seen many examples of commas used both before and after conjunctions. So I see virtually no support for this 'rule' in English style guides nor in general usage. Best regards. Blurryman ( talk) 00:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)