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The infobox should reflect what the sources say. And in this case the sources are unanimous. A small sample:
1. Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39. Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks.
2. Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II. Cambridge University Press. page 210. Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories... [1]
3. Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: Fascism and the Italian Occupation of Syros in World War II. I.B. Tauris. page 25. Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece... [2].
4. J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97: ...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQg0MAM#v=onepage&q=%22%20as%20France%20surrendered%20two%20weeks%20after%20Italy's%20entry%20into%20war%2C%20defeat%20came%20rapidly%2C%20first%20in%20Greece%20and%20Albania%2C%22&f=false
5. Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194: ... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces "first+victory+"&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8xtf0zIrOAhUQsBQKHYbgDtI4ChDoAQgyMAQ#v=onepage&q=%22As%20the%20only%20active%20ally%20of%20Britain%20fighting%20in%20Europe%2C%20Greece%2C%20overcoming%20its%20comparative%20disadvantages%2C%20provided%20the%20first%20victory%20against%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false
6. Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74 "First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany. "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7ktf9zYrOAhWBWBQKHQTsCE4Q6AEIOjAE#v=snippet&q=%22First%2C%20Greece%20represented%20the%20first%20real%20defeat%20for%20the%20Axis%2C%20and%20had%20an%20enormous%20psychological%20impact%20upon%20both%20Italy%20and%20Germany.%22&f=false
7. Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. "The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces. "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQhcMAg#v=snippet&q=%22The%20decision%20to%20invade%20Greece%20had%20been%20revealed%20as%20a%20calamitous%20folly.%20It%20was%20the%20first%20defeat%20for%20the%20seemingly%20invincible%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false
8. A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211: ...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'. [3]
9. Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. "Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'. [ [4]]
10. John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958: Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..." [ [5]]
11. Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6: the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner. [ [6]]
12. Peter Ewer. Forgotten ANZACS: the campaign in Greece, 1941. Royal United Services Institute of New South Wales. p. 2: Within weeks, the Italian army was in tatters, and the Greeks gave the Allied cause its first substantial victory on land in World War II, an achievement that has never received the recognition it deserves.[ [7]]
I could go on and on. I mean, it's real easy to find sources to back this up. Athenean ( talk) 05:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
"The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84.
The historians agree on these 4 facts about the Greek-Italian war: 1) Stopping Invasion, 2) Pushing Back Invaders, 3) Loss part of Italian-held Albania to the Greeks, 4) Stabilization of war's front line far behind from where it begun. More precisely the scholars agree that: 1) the war broke out when Italy invaded Greece through Albania. 2) the Greeks managed to overturn the invasion and drive all the Italian troops out of the Greek soil and back into Albania. 3) The war front was moved from Greece to Albania, and the Greek troops, not only managed to keep the Axis out of Greek soil for the remainder of this war, but also brought about 30% of the territory of the Axis-controlled Albania (then an Italian protectorate), under Allied and Greek control. 4) Eventually, the Italians managed to stabilize their front on Albanian soil but this doesn't negate their defeats and losses, nor the success of the Greeks against their invaders. The primary goal of the Greek efforts in this war was just to defend their homeland and not let anyone touch it. And no, the goal of the Greeks wasn't to defeat the Axis powers and save the planet, nor to invade Italy, nor to overthrow Mussolini from power. The Italian side failed in its offensive goals which was to conquer Greece, and the Greek side accomplished its defensive goals which was to keep invaders out of Greek soil.
Okay, I tried to assume good faith but you have declared yourself to be an ass (your allegation of distribution) who is apparently wilfully ignoring sources (already posted in this section that contradict your claim) and deliberately misreading posts to further avoid a rational discussion (I.e. ctrl f search this very page turned into a "desperate effort" to just argue). I can see why Annales got so frustrated! EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 00:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Was this really the first allied success in the war? I can remember at least of Narvik and maybe of Dunkirk,maybe there are others. Yes, both ended ultimately in retreat, but it did it here too, soo. Uspzor ( talk) 04:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
SilentResident, these are just you personal opinions. You didn't provide a a definition for "campaign", "major" and even the greek victory piece is debatable as anyone didn't pretending amnesia can see. I showed you that narvik is considered a campaign and if take the trouble to search narvik victory you'll see that it's considered a victory much more unanimously than the greco-italian war. Any dubius and contentius claim as this should not be made into the article but at least qualify it. Uspzor ( talk) 22:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The defeat of the Italians and the ensuing Greek counter-offensive have been described as the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and helped raise morale in Allied Europe.
The repulse [defeat (the Italians weren't defeated, their offensive was, the war went on)] of the Italian invasion and the [ensuing (counter-offensives have to ensue)] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers, which helped raise morale in Allied Europe. this version avoids WP:WEASEL Keith-264 ( talk) 16:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Had a look to see if it shed any light on the "first Allied victory" question but found only references to the Italian failures. The first four lines of the section are a copy from the lead (complete with bold words too) which seems a bit odd. I would have deleted it but we're blocked for the moment. Perhaps we should revise the Analysis to add the Greek and global perspective first? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Weinberg is a tertiary source (a textual consolidation of primary and secondary sources) and a lousy one at that. If anyone wants to contradict Enigma's edits they need to discuss it here, [not make peremptory edits]. The article is quite eloquent on the structural problems of the Italian army in the late 30s and Weinberg wrote piffle. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It's obvious that the 2nd lead paragraph should not be part of this article. In fact the background information about the war should provide a very brief summary about "both" Italian and Greek preparations and not about the strategic moves of Italy during World War II... in the Balkans, Mediterrennean, Italian-German policy and Italian-British conflicts. It would be a good addition for the lead in "Italy during World War II" though. On the other hand the 3rd lead paragraph should be expanded since it concerns the core events of this article. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
[A sentence or two here about Italian imperial aspirations and Mussolini's intentions towards Greece, Greek policy of maintaining its independence] The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt, then invaded Greece. [A sentence or two here about the importance of conquering Greece and the military effect it would have on the wider war, importance of speed, British involvement]
how about something like this? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 08:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt. Then, as part of his imperial ambitions, turned his attention to Greece. The latter began making defensive preparations for an Italian attack. Moreover, Greek leader Ioannis Metaxas wisely rejected a premature dispatch of token British forces, which would precipitate a German intervention. Meanwhile, Greek-Italian tensions mounted as a result of a continued anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press, combined with provocative Italian actions which culminated with the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli.
Alexikoua ( talk) 20:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
¨ Agree with the proposal. Looks good to me. Cuts down on the current bloat.
Athenean (
talk)
06:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.
a slimmer version. Keith-264 ( talk) 06:39, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Agree . I feel ashamed for not seeing the problem sooner, given how frequently I was visiting this article in the past. Your proposals look good. --
SILENT
RESIDENT
10:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian campaign was poorly prepared and Mussolini's "quick and relatively easy victory" turned to defeat and stalemate, which exposed the incompetence of Fascist government and its war machine. Italian soldiers suffered great hardship in the Albanian mountains, "due to the incompetence and unforgivably bad planning of their leaders". [1] The Italian army fought in difficult terrain, short of clothing and equipment, with units being split up as they arrived. Paoletti criticised Mussolini for "criminal improvidence", in causing the great number casualties of the Italian army. [clearly the Greeks had something to do with this too] The German invasion "went smoothly, because the Greek army was concentrated against the Italians". [2]
Sadkovich wrote in 1993 that the effect of the Italo-Greek war had been exaggerated by other authors, because Axis victories in the spring of 1941 cancelled the Italian defeats of the previous winter. During the war against Greece, the quantity of soldiers, merchant ships, escort vessels and weapons which Italy allocated to the Greek front was much greater than those for the invasion of Egypt. [3] In 1995, Gann and Duignan wrote that the fighting in France, Yugoslavia and Greece reduced Italy to the status of a [German] satellite. [4] According to Kershaw in 2007, Italian aspirations to great power status were ended by the Greek failure, the Battle of Taranto (11–12 November 1940) and the loss of Cyrenaica (9 December 1940 – 9 February 1941). [5]
References
Did this to prune the existing text, clearly the Greek side is missing and needs to be represented. Thoughts? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:21, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
The defeat [repulse] of the Italians and the [ensuing] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and that it helped raise morale in Allied Europe. [1] I'm not sure about the source though, are there more eminent ones? The British OH describes the Greek war effort as being in decline. Keith-264 ( talk) 15:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, the armistice with Germany was repeated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of April, the Axis occupation of Greece had been completed by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy occupying nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive [in 1940] have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 (or 1-2) most eminent historians that write this)] the first Allied land [victory] against the Axis powers and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
How about this? Does the article have this [the bold bit] and appropriate citations? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
References
Whatever this war may set on our country we must never forget the new debt which we owe to Greece. She is the first nation to inflict a defeat upon the ground forces of an Axis Power, and the very fact of her resistance to an attack has afforded us new opportunities at sea and in the air.[ [9]] Alexikoua ( talk) 22:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, an armistice [does this have a name?] with Germany was duplicated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of the month, all of Greece had been occupied by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy taking over nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 helped to raise morale in Allied Europe and have been called by historians like Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, the first Allied land victory against the Axis powers of World War II.
OK? Keith-264 ( talk) 08:13, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Why is there
wouldn't it be better to separate them to
I attempted assuming good faith, but as @ SilentResident: has accused of me of pretty much lying and disruptive editing here on the talkpage, allow me to spell it out for him:
Source and page number | Quote | Comment by Enigma. | Comment by Alexikoua |
---|---|---|---|
Stockings, Swastika over the Acropolis, p. 2 | "...the fall and subsequent occupation of most of Greece ended a costly and embarrassing statement in Albania...". | P.45 reinforces the point of a stalemate ensuing between both sides, politically, militarily, and economically | This statement was obviously the result of the Italian defeat both in Greece and Albania |
Hall, War in the Balkan, p. 117 | "By mid-December, both sides had reached a stalemate..." | There was a stalemate mid-December but this doesn't concern the entire war, only a couple of weeks in December (in the middle of heavy winter by the way) | |
Hall, The Modern Balkans, p. 109 | "... on 29 January 1941 the Greek government agreed to accept British land forces in an effort to the break the stalemate in Albania." | It would be immature to assume that the war resulted in a stalemate because there was a short term stalemate in late January (wasn't the Spring Offensive yet another humiliation for Mussolini? At least Mussolini accepted his defeat) | |
Shores and Cull, Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41, p. 63 | "The New Year of 1941 found a situation of stalemate fast developing along the front line. ... The Greeks were practically exhausted by the tremendous exertions of their autumn counter-attacks ..." | wouldn't be weird to claim that the result was a stalemate because the Greek army was exhausted? | |
Swanston, The Atlas of Special Operations of World War II, p. ? | "The Greek Army had managed to hold off the Italian offensive into the country ... . A stalemate had been created along the Greek border ... and it remained as such until the German intervention..." | A stalemate was created along the Greek border? I don't think so, the Greek army captured nearly 1/3 of Albanian territory. By the way, what makes this "Atlas of ...." a non-tertiary source? | |
Latrides, Greece at the Crossroads, p. 319? | "Heavy winter and exhaustion produce a stalemate" | Didn't the war continue the following spring? Yes it did and it was followed by yet another humiliating defeat during "Operatione Primavera". | |
Ripley, The Wehrmacht, p. 108 | "After modest initial Italian successes, however, the Greek Army forced the Italians back onto Albanian soil, until by December the fighting had degenerated into a stalemate." | Again, the post-December events are missing. The war ended in early April. In simple words it would be again weird to claim that the author claims that this war ended with a "stalemate". | |
McGrew, Educating across Cultures, p. 247 | "There a stalemate ensued throughout the winter." | Weak source on the subject | Agree. Moreover the war didn't end during winter. |
Marder, Stewards of the land, p. 188 | "The invasion ... ended in the Italians' humiliating defeat ... the Greeks had pushed the Italian line back into Albania ... The Italians at this point were able to stablize their line ... reached a stalemate." | Weak source on the subject | |
Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84. | "The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." | This doesn't say a word about the supposed Italian "non-defeat" | |
James J. Sadkovich, The Italo-Greek War in Context, p. 455 | "The Greeks thus did no more than stalemate Italy and efforts to claim victory in an 'Italo-Greek' conflict that was distinct from an 'Italo-German' war are not convincing." | Somewhat problematic author with claims of bias. His essay is an interesting read, however, that details a much more complicated war than a limited infobox would allow and would be further support to a link to the aftermath section. | Agree with Enigma. |
Source and page number | Quote | Comment |
---|---|---|
Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39 | "Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks." | |
Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. p.? | "Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'." | More context is needed, although seems more in line with talking about the initial invasion |
John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958, p.? | "Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..." | Likewise |
Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6 | "the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner." | Likewise |
Source and page number | Quote | Comment |
---|---|---|
Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: p. 210. | "Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories..." | Only talks about the Greek counterattack, the quote does not reflect an opinion on the entire course of the war. |
Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: p. 25 | "Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece..." | The war lasted longer than the invasion, so irrelevant |
J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97 | "...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania" | This is an extremely weak source, and this is pretty much all it says. It provides no context or actual analysis. |
Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194 | "... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces" | First victory is irrelevant to the discussion. The source goes on to state the "Greek advances stalled in early January 1941 ..." The source teases at stalemate, but acknowledges that the situation was more complex than some editors here would admit noting that the situation was a "humiliation for Mussolini but also an unexpected gain force Greece ...". It goes on to talk about pre-war boundary decisions, and hints at further analysis, which Google Books does not show. |
Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74 | "First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany" | Irrelevant to the discussion on the outcome, and more in line with the separate discussion on reinforcing - with better sources than were used - the point that the land campaign was the first Allied victory. Offers little in the way of actually providing information on the outcome of the whole war, and ventures into the more complex situation of Italy losing its freedom as a result of its actions. |
Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. p? | "The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces." | Likewise |
A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211 | "...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'." | Likewise |
Unless someone has a better way of displaying this info in a table, this will have to do for now. I will also add additional sources, brought up here and found elsewhere, as they crop up. EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 01:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
This does not mention of the Greek advances that occurred in Albania BEFORE a statement has been reached.
Again this was after the Greek advances in Albania.
Same as above.
Same as above.
This source conflicts with the other sources which confirmed the Greeks taking over 25% of Ablania's territory before frontline of the war was stabilized. So, the source claiming the front line to be on the Greek-Albanian border when the Greeks have gained territories inside Albania, makes no sense.
This does not say that the Greeks didn't make advances in Albania.
This again does not say that the Greeks didn't had any advances on Albanian soil.
Same as above.
Note how this sources confirm that the Italian line is NOT on Greek-Albanian borders, but into Albania, due to the Greek advances.
My conclusion: 1) You do not have concrete and solid proof that the Greeks didn't make any advances against the Italians on Albanian soil during the war. 2) You do not have any concrete and solid proof that the stalemate occured outright on the Greek-Albanian border to be declared a true stalemate for both sides. If you think you can pass this for a consensus, or change the established facts using these sources, then you are wrong. -- SILENT RESIDENT 01:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Most of my sources are Anglocentric so tend to describe events in Greece and Albania as peripheral matters but Playfair I has some detail on the effect of the war in Albania dragging on, that both sides made sacrifices elsewhere and both were finding that the strain was undermining their armies and economies. The Greeks had stripped the defences in the east to send 13 divisions to the Albanian front and the Italians had given the front priority over North Africa. I don't think that anyone disputes the achievement of the Greek army in occupying 1/3 of Albania, only what was going to come next. The British and German interventions made the Italo-Greek war part of a bigger conflict so it's obviously difficult to come to a conclusion. Playfair writes that the Italian invasion was based on the assumption that there would be little resistance and that the speed by which the Greeks turned to the counter-offensive was another nasty surprise.pp.228-235 The counter-offensive failed to capture Tepelene and by January 1941, the possibility of a German invasion increased and this would make the Greek position "desperate", the weather caused great hardship and there were many frostbite casualties, clothes and boots were short as were vehicles and pack animals and there was only two months' artillery ammunition left. (Playfair stresses that the Greek army was equipped with French and German arms, for which the British had little ammunition and such French ammunition available in the US had already been sent or was en route. All the British could do was pass on captured Italian stocks from Libya.) pp.333-335 To release troops for the eastern front, the Greeks tried to capture Valona in mid-February but the weather deteriorated again and Tepelene was not captured and signs of an Italian attack in the centre, ended the prospect of a return to the offensive. p.337 Keith-264 ( talk) 09:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
How about a brief description of the success of the Greek counter-offensive/counter-invasion, that a strategic stalemate followed and was then overtaken by the British-German interventions? This formulation can accommodate a desire to emphasis Greek success and the effect it had on world opinion without implying that the war with Italy had been won? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
The infobox should reflect what the sources say. And in this case the sources are unanimous. A small sample:
1. Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39. Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks.
2. Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II. Cambridge University Press. page 210. Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories... [1]
3. Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: Fascism and the Italian Occupation of Syros in World War II. I.B. Tauris. page 25. Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece... [2].
4. J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97: ...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQg0MAM#v=onepage&q=%22%20as%20France%20surrendered%20two%20weeks%20after%20Italy's%20entry%20into%20war%2C%20defeat%20came%20rapidly%2C%20first%20in%20Greece%20and%20Albania%2C%22&f=false
5. Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194: ... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces "first+victory+"&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8xtf0zIrOAhUQsBQKHYbgDtI4ChDoAQgyMAQ#v=onepage&q=%22As%20the%20only%20active%20ally%20of%20Britain%20fighting%20in%20Europe%2C%20Greece%2C%20overcoming%20its%20comparative%20disadvantages%2C%20provided%20the%20first%20victory%20against%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false
6. Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74 "First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany. "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7ktf9zYrOAhWBWBQKHQTsCE4Q6AEIOjAE#v=snippet&q=%22First%2C%20Greece%20represented%20the%20first%20real%20defeat%20for%20the%20Axis%2C%20and%20had%20an%20enormous%20psychological%20impact%20upon%20both%20Italy%20and%20Germany.%22&f=false
7. Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. "The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces. "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQhcMAg#v=snippet&q=%22The%20decision%20to%20invade%20Greece%20had%20been%20revealed%20as%20a%20calamitous%20folly.%20It%20was%20the%20first%20defeat%20for%20the%20seemingly%20invincible%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false
8. A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211: ...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'. [3]
9. Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. "Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'. [ [4]]
10. John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958: Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..." [ [5]]
11. Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6: the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner. [ [6]]
12. Peter Ewer. Forgotten ANZACS: the campaign in Greece, 1941. Royal United Services Institute of New South Wales. p. 2: Within weeks, the Italian army was in tatters, and the Greeks gave the Allied cause its first substantial victory on land in World War II, an achievement that has never received the recognition it deserves.[ [7]]
I could go on and on. I mean, it's real easy to find sources to back this up. Athenean ( talk) 05:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
"The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84.
The historians agree on these 4 facts about the Greek-Italian war: 1) Stopping Invasion, 2) Pushing Back Invaders, 3) Loss part of Italian-held Albania to the Greeks, 4) Stabilization of war's front line far behind from where it begun. More precisely the scholars agree that: 1) the war broke out when Italy invaded Greece through Albania. 2) the Greeks managed to overturn the invasion and drive all the Italian troops out of the Greek soil and back into Albania. 3) The war front was moved from Greece to Albania, and the Greek troops, not only managed to keep the Axis out of Greek soil for the remainder of this war, but also brought about 30% of the territory of the Axis-controlled Albania (then an Italian protectorate), under Allied and Greek control. 4) Eventually, the Italians managed to stabilize their front on Albanian soil but this doesn't negate their defeats and losses, nor the success of the Greeks against their invaders. The primary goal of the Greek efforts in this war was just to defend their homeland and not let anyone touch it. And no, the goal of the Greeks wasn't to defeat the Axis powers and save the planet, nor to invade Italy, nor to overthrow Mussolini from power. The Italian side failed in its offensive goals which was to conquer Greece, and the Greek side accomplished its defensive goals which was to keep invaders out of Greek soil.
Okay, I tried to assume good faith but you have declared yourself to be an ass (your allegation of distribution) who is apparently wilfully ignoring sources (already posted in this section that contradict your claim) and deliberately misreading posts to further avoid a rational discussion (I.e. ctrl f search this very page turned into a "desperate effort" to just argue). I can see why Annales got so frustrated! EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 00:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Was this really the first allied success in the war? I can remember at least of Narvik and maybe of Dunkirk,maybe there are others. Yes, both ended ultimately in retreat, but it did it here too, soo. Uspzor ( talk) 04:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
SilentResident, these are just you personal opinions. You didn't provide a a definition for "campaign", "major" and even the greek victory piece is debatable as anyone didn't pretending amnesia can see. I showed you that narvik is considered a campaign and if take the trouble to search narvik victory you'll see that it's considered a victory much more unanimously than the greco-italian war. Any dubius and contentius claim as this should not be made into the article but at least qualify it. Uspzor ( talk) 22:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The defeat of the Italians and the ensuing Greek counter-offensive have been described as the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and helped raise morale in Allied Europe.
The repulse [defeat (the Italians weren't defeated, their offensive was, the war went on)] of the Italian invasion and the [ensuing (counter-offensives have to ensue)] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers, which helped raise morale in Allied Europe. this version avoids WP:WEASEL Keith-264 ( talk) 16:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Had a look to see if it shed any light on the "first Allied victory" question but found only references to the Italian failures. The first four lines of the section are a copy from the lead (complete with bold words too) which seems a bit odd. I would have deleted it but we're blocked for the moment. Perhaps we should revise the Analysis to add the Greek and global perspective first? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Weinberg is a tertiary source (a textual consolidation of primary and secondary sources) and a lousy one at that. If anyone wants to contradict Enigma's edits they need to discuss it here, [not make peremptory edits]. The article is quite eloquent on the structural problems of the Italian army in the late 30s and Weinberg wrote piffle. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It's obvious that the 2nd lead paragraph should not be part of this article. In fact the background information about the war should provide a very brief summary about "both" Italian and Greek preparations and not about the strategic moves of Italy during World War II... in the Balkans, Mediterrennean, Italian-German policy and Italian-British conflicts. It would be a good addition for the lead in "Italy during World War II" though. On the other hand the 3rd lead paragraph should be expanded since it concerns the core events of this article. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
[A sentence or two here about Italian imperial aspirations and Mussolini's intentions towards Greece, Greek policy of maintaining its independence] The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt, then invaded Greece. [A sentence or two here about the importance of conquering Greece and the military effect it would have on the wider war, importance of speed, British involvement]
how about something like this? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 08:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt. Then, as part of his imperial ambitions, turned his attention to Greece. The latter began making defensive preparations for an Italian attack. Moreover, Greek leader Ioannis Metaxas wisely rejected a premature dispatch of token British forces, which would precipitate a German intervention. Meanwhile, Greek-Italian tensions mounted as a result of a continued anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press, combined with provocative Italian actions which culminated with the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli.
Alexikoua ( talk) 20:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
¨ Agree with the proposal. Looks good to me. Cuts down on the current bloat.
Athenean (
talk)
06:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.
a slimmer version. Keith-264 ( talk) 06:39, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Agree . I feel ashamed for not seeing the problem sooner, given how frequently I was visiting this article in the past. Your proposals look good. --
SILENT
RESIDENT
10:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The Italian campaign was poorly prepared and Mussolini's "quick and relatively easy victory" turned to defeat and stalemate, which exposed the incompetence of Fascist government and its war machine. Italian soldiers suffered great hardship in the Albanian mountains, "due to the incompetence and unforgivably bad planning of their leaders". [1] The Italian army fought in difficult terrain, short of clothing and equipment, with units being split up as they arrived. Paoletti criticised Mussolini for "criminal improvidence", in causing the great number casualties of the Italian army. [clearly the Greeks had something to do with this too] The German invasion "went smoothly, because the Greek army was concentrated against the Italians". [2]
Sadkovich wrote in 1993 that the effect of the Italo-Greek war had been exaggerated by other authors, because Axis victories in the spring of 1941 cancelled the Italian defeats of the previous winter. During the war against Greece, the quantity of soldiers, merchant ships, escort vessels and weapons which Italy allocated to the Greek front was much greater than those for the invasion of Egypt. [3] In 1995, Gann and Duignan wrote that the fighting in France, Yugoslavia and Greece reduced Italy to the status of a [German] satellite. [4] According to Kershaw in 2007, Italian aspirations to great power status were ended by the Greek failure, the Battle of Taranto (11–12 November 1940) and the loss of Cyrenaica (9 December 1940 – 9 February 1941). [5]
References
Did this to prune the existing text, clearly the Greek side is missing and needs to be represented. Thoughts? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:21, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
The defeat [repulse] of the Italians and the [ensuing] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and that it helped raise morale in Allied Europe. [1] I'm not sure about the source though, are there more eminent ones? The British OH describes the Greek war effort as being in decline. Keith-264 ( talk) 15:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, the armistice with Germany was repeated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of April, the Axis occupation of Greece had been completed by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy occupying nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive [in 1940] have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 (or 1-2) most eminent historians that write this)] the first Allied land [victory] against the Axis powers and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.
How about this? Does the article have this [the bold bit] and appropriate citations? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
References
Whatever this war may set on our country we must never forget the new debt which we owe to Greece. She is the first nation to inflict a defeat upon the ground forces of an Axis Power, and the very fact of her resistance to an attack has afforded us new opportunities at sea and in the air.[ [9]] Alexikoua ( talk) 22:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, an armistice [does this have a name?] with Germany was duplicated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of the month, all of Greece had been occupied by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy taking over nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 helped to raise morale in Allied Europe and have been called by historians like Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, the first Allied land victory against the Axis powers of World War II.
OK? Keith-264 ( talk) 08:13, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Why is there
wouldn't it be better to separate them to
I attempted assuming good faith, but as @ SilentResident: has accused of me of pretty much lying and disruptive editing here on the talkpage, allow me to spell it out for him:
Source and page number | Quote | Comment by Enigma. | Comment by Alexikoua |
---|---|---|---|
Stockings, Swastika over the Acropolis, p. 2 | "...the fall and subsequent occupation of most of Greece ended a costly and embarrassing statement in Albania...". | P.45 reinforces the point of a stalemate ensuing between both sides, politically, militarily, and economically | This statement was obviously the result of the Italian defeat both in Greece and Albania |
Hall, War in the Balkan, p. 117 | "By mid-December, both sides had reached a stalemate..." | There was a stalemate mid-December but this doesn't concern the entire war, only a couple of weeks in December (in the middle of heavy winter by the way) | |
Hall, The Modern Balkans, p. 109 | "... on 29 January 1941 the Greek government agreed to accept British land forces in an effort to the break the stalemate in Albania." | It would be immature to assume that the war resulted in a stalemate because there was a short term stalemate in late January (wasn't the Spring Offensive yet another humiliation for Mussolini? At least Mussolini accepted his defeat) | |
Shores and Cull, Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41, p. 63 | "The New Year of 1941 found a situation of stalemate fast developing along the front line. ... The Greeks were practically exhausted by the tremendous exertions of their autumn counter-attacks ..." | wouldn't be weird to claim that the result was a stalemate because the Greek army was exhausted? | |
Swanston, The Atlas of Special Operations of World War II, p. ? | "The Greek Army had managed to hold off the Italian offensive into the country ... . A stalemate had been created along the Greek border ... and it remained as such until the German intervention..." | A stalemate was created along the Greek border? I don't think so, the Greek army captured nearly 1/3 of Albanian territory. By the way, what makes this "Atlas of ...." a non-tertiary source? | |
Latrides, Greece at the Crossroads, p. 319? | "Heavy winter and exhaustion produce a stalemate" | Didn't the war continue the following spring? Yes it did and it was followed by yet another humiliating defeat during "Operatione Primavera". | |
Ripley, The Wehrmacht, p. 108 | "After modest initial Italian successes, however, the Greek Army forced the Italians back onto Albanian soil, until by December the fighting had degenerated into a stalemate." | Again, the post-December events are missing. The war ended in early April. In simple words it would be again weird to claim that the author claims that this war ended with a "stalemate". | |
McGrew, Educating across Cultures, p. 247 | "There a stalemate ensued throughout the winter." | Weak source on the subject | Agree. Moreover the war didn't end during winter. |
Marder, Stewards of the land, p. 188 | "The invasion ... ended in the Italians' humiliating defeat ... the Greeks had pushed the Italian line back into Albania ... The Italians at this point were able to stablize their line ... reached a stalemate." | Weak source on the subject | |
Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84. | "The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." | This doesn't say a word about the supposed Italian "non-defeat" | |
James J. Sadkovich, The Italo-Greek War in Context, p. 455 | "The Greeks thus did no more than stalemate Italy and efforts to claim victory in an 'Italo-Greek' conflict that was distinct from an 'Italo-German' war are not convincing." | Somewhat problematic author with claims of bias. His essay is an interesting read, however, that details a much more complicated war than a limited infobox would allow and would be further support to a link to the aftermath section. | Agree with Enigma. |
Source and page number | Quote | Comment |
---|---|---|
Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39 | "Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks." | |
Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. p.? | "Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'." | More context is needed, although seems more in line with talking about the initial invasion |
John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958, p.? | "Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..." | Likewise |
Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6 | "the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner." | Likewise |
Source and page number | Quote | Comment |
---|---|---|
Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: p. 210. | "Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories..." | Only talks about the Greek counterattack, the quote does not reflect an opinion on the entire course of the war. |
Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: p. 25 | "Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece..." | The war lasted longer than the invasion, so irrelevant |
J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97 | "...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania" | This is an extremely weak source, and this is pretty much all it says. It provides no context or actual analysis. |
Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194 | "... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces" | First victory is irrelevant to the discussion. The source goes on to state the "Greek advances stalled in early January 1941 ..." The source teases at stalemate, but acknowledges that the situation was more complex than some editors here would admit noting that the situation was a "humiliation for Mussolini but also an unexpected gain force Greece ...". It goes on to talk about pre-war boundary decisions, and hints at further analysis, which Google Books does not show. |
Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74 | "First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany" | Irrelevant to the discussion on the outcome, and more in line with the separate discussion on reinforcing - with better sources than were used - the point that the land campaign was the first Allied victory. Offers little in the way of actually providing information on the outcome of the whole war, and ventures into the more complex situation of Italy losing its freedom as a result of its actions. |
Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. p? | "The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces." | Likewise |
A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211 | "...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'." | Likewise |
Unless someone has a better way of displaying this info in a table, this will have to do for now. I will also add additional sources, brought up here and found elsewhere, as they crop up. EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 01:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
This does not mention of the Greek advances that occurred in Albania BEFORE a statement has been reached.
Again this was after the Greek advances in Albania.
Same as above.
Same as above.
This source conflicts with the other sources which confirmed the Greeks taking over 25% of Ablania's territory before frontline of the war was stabilized. So, the source claiming the front line to be on the Greek-Albanian border when the Greeks have gained territories inside Albania, makes no sense.
This does not say that the Greeks didn't make advances in Albania.
This again does not say that the Greeks didn't had any advances on Albanian soil.
Same as above.
Note how this sources confirm that the Italian line is NOT on Greek-Albanian borders, but into Albania, due to the Greek advances.
My conclusion: 1) You do not have concrete and solid proof that the Greeks didn't make any advances against the Italians on Albanian soil during the war. 2) You do not have any concrete and solid proof that the stalemate occured outright on the Greek-Albanian border to be declared a true stalemate for both sides. If you think you can pass this for a consensus, or change the established facts using these sources, then you are wrong. -- SILENT RESIDENT 01:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Most of my sources are Anglocentric so tend to describe events in Greece and Albania as peripheral matters but Playfair I has some detail on the effect of the war in Albania dragging on, that both sides made sacrifices elsewhere and both were finding that the strain was undermining their armies and economies. The Greeks had stripped the defences in the east to send 13 divisions to the Albanian front and the Italians had given the front priority over North Africa. I don't think that anyone disputes the achievement of the Greek army in occupying 1/3 of Albania, only what was going to come next. The British and German interventions made the Italo-Greek war part of a bigger conflict so it's obviously difficult to come to a conclusion. Playfair writes that the Italian invasion was based on the assumption that there would be little resistance and that the speed by which the Greeks turned to the counter-offensive was another nasty surprise.pp.228-235 The counter-offensive failed to capture Tepelene and by January 1941, the possibility of a German invasion increased and this would make the Greek position "desperate", the weather caused great hardship and there were many frostbite casualties, clothes and boots were short as were vehicles and pack animals and there was only two months' artillery ammunition left. (Playfair stresses that the Greek army was equipped with French and German arms, for which the British had little ammunition and such French ammunition available in the US had already been sent or was en route. All the British could do was pass on captured Italian stocks from Libya.) pp.333-335 To release troops for the eastern front, the Greeks tried to capture Valona in mid-February but the weather deteriorated again and Tepelene was not captured and signs of an Italian attack in the centre, ended the prospect of a return to the offensive. p.337 Keith-264 ( talk) 09:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
How about a brief description of the success of the Greek counter-offensive/counter-invasion, that a strategic stalemate followed and was then overtaken by the British-German interventions? This formulation can accommodate a desire to emphasis Greek success and the effect it had on world opinion without implying that the war with Italy had been won? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)