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The flag of occupied Albania is placed beside the Italian among the belligerent countries, yet no involvement of any Albanian forces is mentioned in the article... I have heard stories of Albanians being actually conscripted in the Italian divisions and deserting because they were unwilling to fight against the Greeks (who were fighting for their own freedom). It would be interesting to find some backing evidence for this. jonosphere ( talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I see also this disruptive edit [ [2]], with the weird explanation that that this is done per most wwii articles, which is wrong: [ [3]], [ [4]] (also [ [5]][ [6]]). Hope this childish flag game will soon end since historical facts are quite clear. Since a protectorate participated in the war the flag is added in the box, as per the rest of wwii articles. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Constantine, your comparison between the Kaiserlich und kテカniglich and the Italian invasion of Albania case is completely impertinent. And the personal union has nothing to do with either of them btw. Albania was an invaded country and did not have a king as Hungary had, but a ViceRe, an Italian noble (Iacomoni) who would represent Italy's crown in Albania. So there was only ONE CROWN to represent Albania and that crown lived in Turin, not in Tirana. Albania did not have a foreign ministry, had gotten out of the League of Nations in 1939 eccetera: It was NOT an independent country anymore. I don't know who told you that Albania was in personal union with Italy: Albania was INVADED by Italy. Now that Greece kept the state of war with Albania for 47 years, that was Greece's choice, not Albania's. It was Greece who kept the state of war with a country who was invaded when Italian troops went to Greece from there. If Greece wanted to be in war with Albania for so long was Greece choice. Albania never attacked Greece and did not exist as an independent country in 1939-1944 while it was invaded by first Italy and then Germany. In fundis, if you guys really think that Albania was in personal union with Italy and was in that union by choice, then do you allow me to add the Albanai TF tag here? I wasn't answered the first time. -- Sulmues talk 15:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
The flag of occupied Albania is placed beside the Italian among the belligerent countries, yet no involvement of any Albanian forces is mentioned in the article... I have heard stories of Albanians being actually conscripted in the Italian divisions and deserting because they were unwilling to fight against the Greeks (who were fighting for their own freedom). It would be interesting to find some backing evidence for this. jonosphere ( talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I see also this disruptive edit [ [13]], with the weird explanation that that this is done per most wwii articles, which is wrong: [ [14]], [ [15]] (also [ [16]][ [17]]). Hope this childish flag game will soon end since historical facts are quite clear. Since a protectorate participated in the war the flag is added in the box, as per the rest of wwii articles. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Constantine, your comparison between the Kaiserlich und kテカniglich and the Italian invasion of Albania case is completely impertinent. And the personal union has nothing to do with either of them btw. Albania was an invaded country and did not have a king as Hungary had, but a ViceRe, an Italian noble (Iacomoni) who would represent Italy's crown in Albania. So there was only ONE CROWN to represent Albania and that crown lived in Turin, not in Tirana. Albania did not have a foreign ministry, had gotten out of the League of Nations in 1939 eccetera: It was NOT an independent country anymore. I don't know who told you that Albania was in personal union with Italy: Albania was INVADED by Italy. Now that Greece kept the state of war with Albania for 47 years, that was Greece's choice, not Albania's. It was Greece who kept the state of war with a country who was invaded when Italian troops went to Greece from there. If Greece wanted to be in war with Albania for so long was Greece choice. Albania never attacked Greece and did not exist as an independent country in 1939-1944 while it was invaded by first Italy and then Germany. In fundis, if you guys really think that Albania was in personal union with Italy and was in that union by choice, then do you allow me to add the Albanai TF tag here? I wasn't answered the first time. -- Sulmues talk 15:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how this article is B-rated when it has unreferenced sentences like:
The unexpected Greek resistance caught the Italian High Command, which was expecting a 'military picnic,' by surprise
How a serious editor can write this sentence on Wikipedia I don't know: Did the editor ask the Italian High Command if they were expecting to go to a picnic? I removed the edit, but I was reverted by user:Athenean [23]. Please bring it to the talk page, otherwise that "picnic" term should go under Peacock. Thank you! -- Sulmues talk 19:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
There has been a succesfull attempt to change casualties and losses contrary to the numbers the sources give (Rodogno, Cervi, Irving...) since this edit. Check the sources. 193.92.241.63 ( talk) 22:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Do you seriously believe that Fascist Italy reported the actual losses of the Greco-italian war? They changed their numbers after the fall of Mussolini. For example, in Russia they claimed ~3,000 dead, turned out at the end of the war the number was changed to 38,000 dead. Look at the Italian dead numbers they are a few hundred more to the Greek losses. They are absurd. These numbers are reported by the Fascist government, and have never changed unlike those numbers in every other Italian campaign in WWII that have been increased. The Italian casualties are definitely higher. I propose that before anything get changed number wise, for a serious search in the Italian casualties list by historians. 窶捻receding unsigned comment added by 72.227.182.94 ( talk) 18:01, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
The Military Insights section states: 'It has been argued that the Balkan Campaign decisively delayed the German invasion of Russia. For example, during the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today". On the other hand, it may have been the Russian weather, not the contingencies of subsidiary campaigns, which determined Barbarossa窶冱 launch date.'
Neither assertion is correct. German forces that participated in the Balkans campaigns had sufficient time to return home and refit before Barbarossa. In addition, the weather in the USSR did not delay the invasion. Neither of these factors show up in German high command documents relating to Barbarossa, despite Keitel's Nuremberg testimony after the war. Instead, the Germans embarked on a massive expansion of their armed forces in the autumn of 1941, expanding the number of divisions by half, so that they would have enough forces to simultaneously invade the USSR while occupying western Europe. It turned out that German industry was not able to produce sufficient equipment in time for these forces (even though the Germans used considerable amounts of captured weapons and vehicles), and this was the cause of the delay. Even as late as early June 1941, a number of the critically important panzer and motorized divisions had not received their equipment.
All this and more is covered in "The German attack on the USSR: the Destruction of a Legend," M. van Creveld, European Studies Review, Jan. 1972.
The assertion must be considered as correct as Germany never intended to have to deal with occupying Greece himself, the Greeks held out longer than any other nation had. The battle of Crete and the thousands of soldiers killed there as well as in mainland Greece meant that Hitler delayed his plans to invade Russia at least 3 months late. Given the history of Russia and its winter it cannot be denied that this was a vital and unanticipated campaign and is seen as many as a turning point in the war
The Military Insights section states: 'It has been argued that the Balkan Campaign decisively delayed the German invasion of Russia. For example, during the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today". On the other hand, it may have been the Russian weather, not the contingencies of subsidiary campaigns, which determined Barbarossa窶冱 launch date.'
Neither assertion is correct. German forces that participated in the Balkans campaigns had sufficient time to return home and refit before Barbarossa. In addition, the weather in the USSR did not delay the invasion. Neither of these factors show up in German high command documents relating to Barbarossa, despite Keitel's Nuremberg testimony after the war. Instead, the Germans embarked on a massive expansion of their armed forces in the autumn of 1941, expanding the number of divisions by half, so that they would have enough forces to simultaneously invade the USSR while occupying western Europe. It turned out that German industry was not able to produce sufficient equipment in time for these forces (even though the Germans used considerable amounts of captured weapons and vehicles), and this was the cause of the delay. Even as late as early June 1941, a number of the critically important panzer and motorized divisions had not received their equipment.
All this and more is covered in "The German attack on the USSR: the Destruction of a Legend," M. van Creveld, European Studies Review, Jan. 1972.
The assertion must be considered as correct as Germany never intended to have to deal with occupying Greece himself, the Greeks held out longer than any other nation had. The battle of Crete and the thousands of soldiers killed there as well as in mainland Greece meant that Hitler delayed his plans to invade Russia at least 3 months late. Given the history of Russia and its winter it cannot be denied that this was a vital and unanticipated campaign and is seen as many as a turning point in the war
Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.
Irving:
Cervi:
~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.
Irving:
Cervi:
~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I have begun to edit this article. This includes fixing punctuation and grammatical errors. Here is a sandbox link with the proposed amendments: /info/en/?search=User:Sue91/sandbox/greco. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by Sue91 ( talk 窶「 contribs) 22:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Some of the page is oddly written. I just want to point to the following passage: "I said that we would crush the Negus' kidneys. Now, with the same, absolute certainty, I repeat, absolute, I tell you that we will crush Greece's kidneys." Mussolini's speech in Palazzo Venezia, 18 November 1940[31][32] The reader probably wonders why Mussolini went on about kidneys like this. Well the answer is he didn't: he didn't threaten to break anyone's kidneys. He threatened to break Greece's back. If he had wanted to say he was going to break Greece's kidneys he would have said "spezzare i reni", using the masculine plurale of "rene". Instead he said "spezzare le reni", using the feminine plurale ("le reni"), which simply means the small of the back or lumbar region. In short he just said he wanted to break Greece's back. Musso often talked bollocks, but he wasn't fixated on Greece's kidneys. If you doubt my word, check with the Accademia della Crusca: http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/it/lingua-italiana/consulenza-linguistica/domande-risposte/r-due-plurali I know this is pedantry, but it makes the man sound even more foolish than he undoubtedly was. I will correct the phrase. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo ( talk 窶「 contribs) 17:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
In the section titled, "Stages of campaign", there is an image of a soldier with a mule (?) but the caption describes a picture of a boy and a general. 198.151.201.9 ( talk) 19:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
This article might have problems relating to copyright. Part of this book http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Hrigci1NEusC&pg=RA1-PT250&dq=a+junior+partner,+was+meant+to+wrest+back+the&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w00XUsDfG4eJkwXH1oGYBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=a%20junior%20partner%2C%20was%20meant%20to%20wrest%20back%20the&f=false] is duplicated exactly in this article in the Peace section. eg. this article says "a junior partner, was meant to wrest back the pride of independent action. Instead, it dragged Italy far deeper into humiliating subservience to Hitler窶冱 Germany. The fact that Hitler, as a sop to Mussolini窶冱 prestige, allowed the Italians to be a party to the Greek surrender, on 23 April 1941, that German arms had forced, could not hide the scale of Italy窶冱 degradation" 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.113.69.150 ( talk) 12:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo
Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo
I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo
It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough! AnnalesSchool ( talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo
Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo
I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo
It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough! AnnalesSchool ( talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
How this could be a greek victory? The italians just won because of the german intervention, but this doesn't matter in the resulted outcome. Moagim ( talk) 23:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Moagim, it actually was an Italian victory. The Italians went on to occupy most of the country. And Greece did formally surrender to the Italians. The bulk of the Greek army was worn down fighting the Italians, which allowed the German to come in almost unopposed because the Greeks had exhausted themselves. Silly Greeks. They would have been far better off surrendering to the Italians sooner than allow the Germans in, because the Germans were brutal masters who bankrupted and starved the entire country. Under Italian occupation instead, they would have been far better treated, which they were in the zones controlled by the Italians. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 08:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Constantine, it is a matter of record that the Italians massacred far less Greeks, than did the more "capable and disciplined" Germans. Certainly the Greek Jewish population was better off. Sounds like you actually admire the Germans a lot more because they were more brutal and efficient. No one likes to be taken over, but if I had a choice (and many Greeks I know have agreed), the lesser of the two evils would have been an Italian occupation. Certainly the Italian military tradition was more humane and honorable than the German one.
AnnalesSchool (
talk)
10:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I do apologize Constantine for any unintentional remark. But I really do believe the Greeks under the Italian zone of occupation were better off. Certainly if I were Jewish, I'd now which zone I would like my family to be in. But tell me, why were the Bulgarians so brutal towards the Greeks? AnnalesSchool ( talk) 10:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The "Consequences" section really needs a good clean-up. Too long winded, too much editorializing, POV, off topic, incoherent, lack of citations, cherry picking, misleading and undue weight. I propose we delete it and start again. It could be beyond repair.
The "Aftermath" could do with a bit more attention too. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 11:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I still think this article relies far too much on editorializing, dubious and gratuitous citations, and a heavy bias against the Italians. It seems like an article that is partisan towards the Greek POV. The inclusion of Hitler's rant against the Italians for causing Germany to lose the war (which is by the way, erroneous), seems gratuitous to me. What has it got to do with the Italo-Greek war. The source for it, the Bormann papers, are unreliable sources, and discredited in the eyes of historians. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 17:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
On August 15, 1940 -more than two months before the Italian attack to Greece (Oct. 28, 1940)- the Italian submarine "Delfino" (Cap. Aicardi)sunk the coastal Greek cruiser "Helli" in front of the Tinos island during a Greek religious ceremony. Just to provoke Greece! The true reason of the Italian defeat in November 1940 was boorish racism: Italy considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" and a few of Italian divisions were "enough to defeat it". Badoglio said: "Those Greeks`ll get the lesson what they deserve!"
And you Greeks aren't racist??? Mussolini did not invade Greece for racist reasons. He invaded Greece for strategic reasons. Invading a country isn't nice and is wrong, but try to separate the hyperbolic rhetoric from cold, calculating reasoning. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 20:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: Kershaw, Ian (2007). Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions that Changed the World, 1940窶1941. Allen Lane. pp.ツ178窶183. ISBNツ 978-0-7139-9712-5. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa ( talk) 18:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Content from Kershaw was added here, here, here, and here. The citations are Kershaw's, inserted into the content presumably to hide the extent of the copyright violation. There might be some usable material in this revision, which is the last good version before users Moagim and Turgeis edited the article. -- Diannaa ( talk) 18:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I will begin deleting un-referenced statements that have been tagged as [citation needed] in the next few days.
AnnalesSchool (
talk)
20:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Having read this article carefully, I have come to the sad conclusion it reads more like a shrill denunciation and castigation of Mussolini in particular and an unfair and very partisan lambaste against the Italian military in general. It takes every opportunity to downplay the Italians as foolish and Mussolini as the archetype fool. In no way can this article be treated as scholarly or balanced. The cherry-picking of sources and quotes is obvious and even at times, outrageous. It breaks nearly all the rules of weight, balance, neutrality, objectivity, impartial tone, bias in sources, dubious sources, assumptions, editorializing and probably several other Wiki editing rules. It gives a very wrong impression upon the reader and so I would urge readers to take this article with a large pinch of salt and to question and doubt what they read here.The editors of this article are clearly biased in favor of the Greek point of view. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 17:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible to be a little more precise on the above issues? As I see, the descriptions about the failed Italian invasion tend to have a pro-Italian pov, i.e. the Italians did this.. and did that, while on the other hand there is nothing to say about the successful Greek planning (the strategic retreat and the counteroffensive). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
In reality, the Italian offensive was carried out without conviction and without the advantage of surprise.[citation needed]
Even air action was rendered ineffective by poor weather.[49] Under an uncertain leadership and divided by personal rivalries, the troops were already becoming exhausted.[citation needed]
Adverse conditions at sea made it impossible to carry out a projected landing at Corfu.
World War II historian John Keegan writes that Tsolakoglou "was so determined, however, to deny the Italians the satisfaction of a victory they had not earned that,he original surrender document did not include the Italians and "came as an unwelcome and most humiliating blow" to the Italians.
Only after a personal request from Mussolini to Hitler, the German dictator agreed to help Mussolini yet again, albeit very reluctantly, and Italy was allowed as a party in the armistice agreement on April 23.[69][68] In recognition of the valour displayed by Greek forces,
Hitler blamed Mussolini窶冱 "Greek fiasco" for his failed campaign in Russia. 窶錬ut for the difficulties created for us by the Italians and their idiotic campaign in Greece, I should have attacked Russia a few weeks earlier,窶 he later said.[71] Hitler noted that Germany was not notified in advance of the impending attack, which 窶歪ompelled us, contrary to all our plans, to intervene in the Balkans, and that in its turn led to a catastrophic delay in the launching of our attack on Russia. We were compelled to expend some of our best divisions there. And as a net result we were then forced to occupy vast territories in which, but for this stupid show, the presence of our troops would have been quite unnecessary.
Mussolini never requested help from the Germans. In fact, he requested that they stay out of Greece. The Germans invited themselves, like jackals over the Greek carcass. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 21:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
From what I have read, the Italians did deserve their "victory" much more than the Germans because they did the bulk of the fighting and suffered the most casualties. The fact that they underestimated Greek resistance and were pushed back into Albania is neither here nor there. I've lost count of the number of times the British were pushed back during the war. The Italians eventually stabilized the front with reinforcements and were preparing for another big offensive. Of course, German help was appreciated (they were "allies" after all), but like everything the Germans did, it came at a cost. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 21:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The number of 1,531 Greeks taken prisoner reported by Rodogno is at the date of December 31, 1942 (after the liberation of a good number of prisoners) and detained only on the national metropolitan territory. The Italian relations reports approximately 10,000 prisoners taken.-- SaturnoV ( talk) 13:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
The Greek Army History Directorate's "An Abridged History of the Greek-Italian and Greek-German War 1940-1941", page 298, mentions 87 officers and 2,305 soldiers captured "on the battlefield" by Italian forces. Apparently it includes only prisoners interned away, as the exact expressions are "in Italy" and "in Germany", with the German figure being extremely low (14 and 59), understandable as the Germans held Greek prisoners only briefly and then released them.-- Xristar ( talk) 15:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Why was my referenced insert below deleted on the grounds that it is "too simplistic"? Then if it is too simplistic, can anyone offer a valid and logical reason why Mussolini invaded Greece when he did, apart from the reason that it was just an "impulse" he had?
In fact, Mussolini's decision to invade Greece was precipitated by Germany's continual interference and encroachment in the Balkans, long considered by the Italian fascist leadership as its own sphere of influence. [1] It was thus Hitler's decision, made in his characteristically impulsive and unilateral manner, to invade Poland without informing his Axis partner, as well as his interference in Romania and Croatia, that forced Mussolini's hand to attack Greece as a preemptive measure against "a predatory German ally". [2] 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnalesSchool ( talk 窶「 contribs) 19:34, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
References
This section has been issued with a Neutrality Disputed warning tag. I urge readers to be aware that certain editors are heavily pro-Greek and what they have written should be taken with a great deal of skepticism as it represents only one side of the story and is a poor reflection of the principles of Wikipedia. Wiki administrators have been notified and the appropriate action will be taken to prevent further biased editorializing. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 14:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I have to note that this section should be trimmed at least 70%: It concerns another war that followed the Greco-Italian one. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:21, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Just inserted a "failed verification" inline tag as I have access to the said pages online but can't find what has been cited.
But the deeper question I have for the editor who quoted extensively from Mark Mazower's trashy and poorly researched book, Inside Hitler's Greece is why? ( Personal attack removed) But what is perhaps more difficult to understand, is this need to portray the Germans as worthy (and honorable) victors while it was they who principally looted the country and starved its inhabitants. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 09:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Dr K, as far as I know, you cannot write a whole paragraph and then put a citation at the end of it. As a general rule, every two or three sentences must be cited to an author, the year and the page number. In the section, German Intervention, there is only one reference or footnote to Felice (64); and then in the next section - Withdrawal and surrender of the Greek First Army - there are whole paragraphs with only one footnote at the end!!!
From an academic point of view, this would be unacceptable. No undergraduate student would even dare to present a paper to his tutor where whole paragraphs just have one author or footnote attribution. For example, how as a reader do we know, whether the whole paragraph is actually what the author wrote and his ideas, or simply just poorly and very loosely paraphrased by a mischievous wiki editor who has editorialised the section in order to put his own "spin" for the purpose of putting the Italians in a bad light.
I am sorry, but unless this section of this article is improved drastically, then I will have no choice but to delete or alter as much as 70% of it. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 05:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
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The flag of occupied Albania is placed beside the Italian among the belligerent countries, yet no involvement of any Albanian forces is mentioned in the article... I have heard stories of Albanians being actually conscripted in the Italian divisions and deserting because they were unwilling to fight against the Greeks (who were fighting for their own freedom). It would be interesting to find some backing evidence for this. jonosphere ( talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I see also this disruptive edit [ [2]], with the weird explanation that that this is done per most wwii articles, which is wrong: [ [3]], [ [4]] (also [ [5]][ [6]]). Hope this childish flag game will soon end since historical facts are quite clear. Since a protectorate participated in the war the flag is added in the box, as per the rest of wwii articles. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Constantine, your comparison between the Kaiserlich und kテカniglich and the Italian invasion of Albania case is completely impertinent. And the personal union has nothing to do with either of them btw. Albania was an invaded country and did not have a king as Hungary had, but a ViceRe, an Italian noble (Iacomoni) who would represent Italy's crown in Albania. So there was only ONE CROWN to represent Albania and that crown lived in Turin, not in Tirana. Albania did not have a foreign ministry, had gotten out of the League of Nations in 1939 eccetera: It was NOT an independent country anymore. I don't know who told you that Albania was in personal union with Italy: Albania was INVADED by Italy. Now that Greece kept the state of war with Albania for 47 years, that was Greece's choice, not Albania's. It was Greece who kept the state of war with a country who was invaded when Italian troops went to Greece from there. If Greece wanted to be in war with Albania for so long was Greece choice. Albania never attacked Greece and did not exist as an independent country in 1939-1944 while it was invaded by first Italy and then Germany. In fundis, if you guys really think that Albania was in personal union with Italy and was in that union by choice, then do you allow me to add the Albanai TF tag here? I wasn't answered the first time. -- Sulmues talk 15:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
The flag of occupied Albania is placed beside the Italian among the belligerent countries, yet no involvement of any Albanian forces is mentioned in the article... I have heard stories of Albanians being actually conscripted in the Italian divisions and deserting because they were unwilling to fight against the Greeks (who were fighting for their own freedom). It would be interesting to find some backing evidence for this. jonosphere ( talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I see also this disruptive edit [ [13]], with the weird explanation that that this is done per most wwii articles, which is wrong: [ [14]], [ [15]] (also [ [16]][ [17]]). Hope this childish flag game will soon end since historical facts are quite clear. Since a protectorate participated in the war the flag is added in the box, as per the rest of wwii articles. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Constantine, your comparison between the Kaiserlich und kテカniglich and the Italian invasion of Albania case is completely impertinent. And the personal union has nothing to do with either of them btw. Albania was an invaded country and did not have a king as Hungary had, but a ViceRe, an Italian noble (Iacomoni) who would represent Italy's crown in Albania. So there was only ONE CROWN to represent Albania and that crown lived in Turin, not in Tirana. Albania did not have a foreign ministry, had gotten out of the League of Nations in 1939 eccetera: It was NOT an independent country anymore. I don't know who told you that Albania was in personal union with Italy: Albania was INVADED by Italy. Now that Greece kept the state of war with Albania for 47 years, that was Greece's choice, not Albania's. It was Greece who kept the state of war with a country who was invaded when Italian troops went to Greece from there. If Greece wanted to be in war with Albania for so long was Greece choice. Albania never attacked Greece and did not exist as an independent country in 1939-1944 while it was invaded by first Italy and then Germany. In fundis, if you guys really think that Albania was in personal union with Italy and was in that union by choice, then do you allow me to add the Albanai TF tag here? I wasn't answered the first time. -- Sulmues talk 15:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know how this article is B-rated when it has unreferenced sentences like:
The unexpected Greek resistance caught the Italian High Command, which was expecting a 'military picnic,' by surprise
How a serious editor can write this sentence on Wikipedia I don't know: Did the editor ask the Italian High Command if they were expecting to go to a picnic? I removed the edit, but I was reverted by user:Athenean [23]. Please bring it to the talk page, otherwise that "picnic" term should go under Peacock. Thank you! -- Sulmues talk 19:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
There has been a succesfull attempt to change casualties and losses contrary to the numbers the sources give (Rodogno, Cervi, Irving...) since this edit. Check the sources. 193.92.241.63 ( talk) 22:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Do you seriously believe that Fascist Italy reported the actual losses of the Greco-italian war? They changed their numbers after the fall of Mussolini. For example, in Russia they claimed ~3,000 dead, turned out at the end of the war the number was changed to 38,000 dead. Look at the Italian dead numbers they are a few hundred more to the Greek losses. They are absurd. These numbers are reported by the Fascist government, and have never changed unlike those numbers in every other Italian campaign in WWII that have been increased. The Italian casualties are definitely higher. I propose that before anything get changed number wise, for a serious search in the Italian casualties list by historians. 窶捻receding unsigned comment added by 72.227.182.94 ( talk) 18:01, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
The Military Insights section states: 'It has been argued that the Balkan Campaign decisively delayed the German invasion of Russia. For example, during the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today". On the other hand, it may have been the Russian weather, not the contingencies of subsidiary campaigns, which determined Barbarossa窶冱 launch date.'
Neither assertion is correct. German forces that participated in the Balkans campaigns had sufficient time to return home and refit before Barbarossa. In addition, the weather in the USSR did not delay the invasion. Neither of these factors show up in German high command documents relating to Barbarossa, despite Keitel's Nuremberg testimony after the war. Instead, the Germans embarked on a massive expansion of their armed forces in the autumn of 1941, expanding the number of divisions by half, so that they would have enough forces to simultaneously invade the USSR while occupying western Europe. It turned out that German industry was not able to produce sufficient equipment in time for these forces (even though the Germans used considerable amounts of captured weapons and vehicles), and this was the cause of the delay. Even as late as early June 1941, a number of the critically important panzer and motorized divisions had not received their equipment.
All this and more is covered in "The German attack on the USSR: the Destruction of a Legend," M. van Creveld, European Studies Review, Jan. 1972.
The assertion must be considered as correct as Germany never intended to have to deal with occupying Greece himself, the Greeks held out longer than any other nation had. The battle of Crete and the thousands of soldiers killed there as well as in mainland Greece meant that Hitler delayed his plans to invade Russia at least 3 months late. Given the history of Russia and its winter it cannot be denied that this was a vital and unanticipated campaign and is seen as many as a turning point in the war
The Military Insights section states: 'It has been argued that the Balkan Campaign decisively delayed the German invasion of Russia. For example, during the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today". On the other hand, it may have been the Russian weather, not the contingencies of subsidiary campaigns, which determined Barbarossa窶冱 launch date.'
Neither assertion is correct. German forces that participated in the Balkans campaigns had sufficient time to return home and refit before Barbarossa. In addition, the weather in the USSR did not delay the invasion. Neither of these factors show up in German high command documents relating to Barbarossa, despite Keitel's Nuremberg testimony after the war. Instead, the Germans embarked on a massive expansion of their armed forces in the autumn of 1941, expanding the number of divisions by half, so that they would have enough forces to simultaneously invade the USSR while occupying western Europe. It turned out that German industry was not able to produce sufficient equipment in time for these forces (even though the Germans used considerable amounts of captured weapons and vehicles), and this was the cause of the delay. Even as late as early June 1941, a number of the critically important panzer and motorized divisions had not received their equipment.
All this and more is covered in "The German attack on the USSR: the Destruction of a Legend," M. van Creveld, European Studies Review, Jan. 1972.
The assertion must be considered as correct as Germany never intended to have to deal with occupying Greece himself, the Greeks held out longer than any other nation had. The battle of Crete and the thousands of soldiers killed there as well as in mainland Greece meant that Hitler delayed his plans to invade Russia at least 3 months late. Given the history of Russia and its winter it cannot be denied that this was a vital and unanticipated campaign and is seen as many as a turning point in the war
Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.
Irving:
Cervi:
~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.
Irving:
Cervi:
~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I have begun to edit this article. This includes fixing punctuation and grammatical errors. Here is a sandbox link with the proposed amendments: /info/en/?search=User:Sue91/sandbox/greco. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by Sue91 ( talk 窶「 contribs) 22:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Some of the page is oddly written. I just want to point to the following passage: "I said that we would crush the Negus' kidneys. Now, with the same, absolute certainty, I repeat, absolute, I tell you that we will crush Greece's kidneys." Mussolini's speech in Palazzo Venezia, 18 November 1940[31][32] The reader probably wonders why Mussolini went on about kidneys like this. Well the answer is he didn't: he didn't threaten to break anyone's kidneys. He threatened to break Greece's back. If he had wanted to say he was going to break Greece's kidneys he would have said "spezzare i reni", using the masculine plurale of "rene". Instead he said "spezzare le reni", using the feminine plurale ("le reni"), which simply means the small of the back or lumbar region. In short he just said he wanted to break Greece's back. Musso often talked bollocks, but he wasn't fixated on Greece's kidneys. If you doubt my word, check with the Accademia della Crusca: http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/it/lingua-italiana/consulenza-linguistica/domande-risposte/r-due-plurali I know this is pedantry, but it makes the man sound even more foolish than he undoubtedly was. I will correct the phrase. 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo ( talk 窶「 contribs) 17:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
In the section titled, "Stages of campaign", there is an image of a soldier with a mule (?) but the caption describes a picture of a boy and a general. 198.151.201.9 ( talk) 19:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
This article might have problems relating to copyright. Part of this book http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Hrigci1NEusC&pg=RA1-PT250&dq=a+junior+partner,+was+meant+to+wrest+back+the&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w00XUsDfG4eJkwXH1oGYBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=a%20junior%20partner%2C%20was%20meant%20to%20wrest%20back%20the&f=false] is duplicated exactly in this article in the Peace section. eg. this article says "a junior partner, was meant to wrest back the pride of independent action. Instead, it dragged Italy far deeper into humiliating subservience to Hitler窶冱 Germany. The fact that Hitler, as a sop to Mussolini窶冱 prestige, allowed the Italians to be a party to the Greek surrender, on 23 April 1941, that German arms had forced, could not hide the scale of Italy窶冱 degradation" 窶 Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.113.69.150 ( talk) 12:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo
Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo
I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo
It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough! AnnalesSchool ( talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo
Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo
I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo
It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough! AnnalesSchool ( talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
How this could be a greek victory? The italians just won because of the german intervention, but this doesn't matter in the resulted outcome. Moagim ( talk) 23:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Moagim, it actually was an Italian victory. The Italians went on to occupy most of the country. And Greece did formally surrender to the Italians. The bulk of the Greek army was worn down fighting the Italians, which allowed the German to come in almost unopposed because the Greeks had exhausted themselves. Silly Greeks. They would have been far better off surrendering to the Italians sooner than allow the Germans in, because the Germans were brutal masters who bankrupted and starved the entire country. Under Italian occupation instead, they would have been far better treated, which they were in the zones controlled by the Italians. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 08:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Constantine, it is a matter of record that the Italians massacred far less Greeks, than did the more "capable and disciplined" Germans. Certainly the Greek Jewish population was better off. Sounds like you actually admire the Germans a lot more because they were more brutal and efficient. No one likes to be taken over, but if I had a choice (and many Greeks I know have agreed), the lesser of the two evils would have been an Italian occupation. Certainly the Italian military tradition was more humane and honorable than the German one.
AnnalesSchool (
talk)
10:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I do apologize Constantine for any unintentional remark. But I really do believe the Greeks under the Italian zone of occupation were better off. Certainly if I were Jewish, I'd now which zone I would like my family to be in. But tell me, why were the Bulgarians so brutal towards the Greeks? AnnalesSchool ( talk) 10:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The "Consequences" section really needs a good clean-up. Too long winded, too much editorializing, POV, off topic, incoherent, lack of citations, cherry picking, misleading and undue weight. I propose we delete it and start again. It could be beyond repair.
The "Aftermath" could do with a bit more attention too. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 11:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I still think this article relies far too much on editorializing, dubious and gratuitous citations, and a heavy bias against the Italians. It seems like an article that is partisan towards the Greek POV. The inclusion of Hitler's rant against the Italians for causing Germany to lose the war (which is by the way, erroneous), seems gratuitous to me. What has it got to do with the Italo-Greek war. The source for it, the Bormann papers, are unreliable sources, and discredited in the eyes of historians. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 17:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
On August 15, 1940 -more than two months before the Italian attack to Greece (Oct. 28, 1940)- the Italian submarine "Delfino" (Cap. Aicardi)sunk the coastal Greek cruiser "Helli" in front of the Tinos island during a Greek religious ceremony. Just to provoke Greece! The true reason of the Italian defeat in November 1940 was boorish racism: Italy considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" and a few of Italian divisions were "enough to defeat it". Badoglio said: "Those Greeks`ll get the lesson what they deserve!"
And you Greeks aren't racist??? Mussolini did not invade Greece for racist reasons. He invaded Greece for strategic reasons. Invading a country isn't nice and is wrong, but try to separate the hyperbolic rhetoric from cold, calculating reasoning. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 20:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: Kershaw, Ian (2007). Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions that Changed the World, 1940窶1941. Allen Lane. pp.ツ178窶183. ISBNツ 978-0-7139-9712-5. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa ( talk) 18:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Content from Kershaw was added here, here, here, and here. The citations are Kershaw's, inserted into the content presumably to hide the extent of the copyright violation. There might be some usable material in this revision, which is the last good version before users Moagim and Turgeis edited the article. -- Diannaa ( talk) 18:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I will begin deleting un-referenced statements that have been tagged as [citation needed] in the next few days.
AnnalesSchool (
talk)
20:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Having read this article carefully, I have come to the sad conclusion it reads more like a shrill denunciation and castigation of Mussolini in particular and an unfair and very partisan lambaste against the Italian military in general. It takes every opportunity to downplay the Italians as foolish and Mussolini as the archetype fool. In no way can this article be treated as scholarly or balanced. The cherry-picking of sources and quotes is obvious and even at times, outrageous. It breaks nearly all the rules of weight, balance, neutrality, objectivity, impartial tone, bias in sources, dubious sources, assumptions, editorializing and probably several other Wiki editing rules. It gives a very wrong impression upon the reader and so I would urge readers to take this article with a large pinch of salt and to question and doubt what they read here.The editors of this article are clearly biased in favor of the Greek point of view. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 17:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible to be a little more precise on the above issues? As I see, the descriptions about the failed Italian invasion tend to have a pro-Italian pov, i.e. the Italians did this.. and did that, while on the other hand there is nothing to say about the successful Greek planning (the strategic retreat and the counteroffensive). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
In reality, the Italian offensive was carried out without conviction and without the advantage of surprise.[citation needed]
Even air action was rendered ineffective by poor weather.[49] Under an uncertain leadership and divided by personal rivalries, the troops were already becoming exhausted.[citation needed]
Adverse conditions at sea made it impossible to carry out a projected landing at Corfu.
World War II historian John Keegan writes that Tsolakoglou "was so determined, however, to deny the Italians the satisfaction of a victory they had not earned that,he original surrender document did not include the Italians and "came as an unwelcome and most humiliating blow" to the Italians.
Only after a personal request from Mussolini to Hitler, the German dictator agreed to help Mussolini yet again, albeit very reluctantly, and Italy was allowed as a party in the armistice agreement on April 23.[69][68] In recognition of the valour displayed by Greek forces,
Hitler blamed Mussolini窶冱 "Greek fiasco" for his failed campaign in Russia. 窶錬ut for the difficulties created for us by the Italians and their idiotic campaign in Greece, I should have attacked Russia a few weeks earlier,窶 he later said.[71] Hitler noted that Germany was not notified in advance of the impending attack, which 窶歪ompelled us, contrary to all our plans, to intervene in the Balkans, and that in its turn led to a catastrophic delay in the launching of our attack on Russia. We were compelled to expend some of our best divisions there. And as a net result we were then forced to occupy vast territories in which, but for this stupid show, the presence of our troops would have been quite unnecessary.
Mussolini never requested help from the Germans. In fact, he requested that they stay out of Greece. The Germans invited themselves, like jackals over the Greek carcass. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 21:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
From what I have read, the Italians did deserve their "victory" much more than the Germans because they did the bulk of the fighting and suffered the most casualties. The fact that they underestimated Greek resistance and were pushed back into Albania is neither here nor there. I've lost count of the number of times the British were pushed back during the war. The Italians eventually stabilized the front with reinforcements and were preparing for another big offensive. Of course, German help was appreciated (they were "allies" after all), but like everything the Germans did, it came at a cost. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 21:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The number of 1,531 Greeks taken prisoner reported by Rodogno is at the date of December 31, 1942 (after the liberation of a good number of prisoners) and detained only on the national metropolitan territory. The Italian relations reports approximately 10,000 prisoners taken.-- SaturnoV ( talk) 13:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
The Greek Army History Directorate's "An Abridged History of the Greek-Italian and Greek-German War 1940-1941", page 298, mentions 87 officers and 2,305 soldiers captured "on the battlefield" by Italian forces. Apparently it includes only prisoners interned away, as the exact expressions are "in Italy" and "in Germany", with the German figure being extremely low (14 and 59), understandable as the Germans held Greek prisoners only briefly and then released them.-- Xristar ( talk) 15:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Why was my referenced insert below deleted on the grounds that it is "too simplistic"? Then if it is too simplistic, can anyone offer a valid and logical reason why Mussolini invaded Greece when he did, apart from the reason that it was just an "impulse" he had?
In fact, Mussolini's decision to invade Greece was precipitated by Germany's continual interference and encroachment in the Balkans, long considered by the Italian fascist leadership as its own sphere of influence. [1] It was thus Hitler's decision, made in his characteristically impulsive and unilateral manner, to invade Poland without informing his Axis partner, as well as his interference in Romania and Croatia, that forced Mussolini's hand to attack Greece as a preemptive measure against "a predatory German ally". [2] 窶板Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnalesSchool ( talk 窶「 contribs) 19:34, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
References
This section has been issued with a Neutrality Disputed warning tag. I urge readers to be aware that certain editors are heavily pro-Greek and what they have written should be taken with a great deal of skepticism as it represents only one side of the story and is a poor reflection of the principles of Wikipedia. Wiki administrators have been notified and the appropriate action will be taken to prevent further biased editorializing. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 14:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I have to note that this section should be trimmed at least 70%: It concerns another war that followed the Greco-Italian one. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:21, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Just inserted a "failed verification" inline tag as I have access to the said pages online but can't find what has been cited.
But the deeper question I have for the editor who quoted extensively from Mark Mazower's trashy and poorly researched book, Inside Hitler's Greece is why? ( Personal attack removed) But what is perhaps more difficult to understand, is this need to portray the Germans as worthy (and honorable) victors while it was they who principally looted the country and starved its inhabitants. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 09:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Dr K, as far as I know, you cannot write a whole paragraph and then put a citation at the end of it. As a general rule, every two or three sentences must be cited to an author, the year and the page number. In the section, German Intervention, there is only one reference or footnote to Felice (64); and then in the next section - Withdrawal and surrender of the Greek First Army - there are whole paragraphs with only one footnote at the end!!!
From an academic point of view, this would be unacceptable. No undergraduate student would even dare to present a paper to his tutor where whole paragraphs just have one author or footnote attribution. For example, how as a reader do we know, whether the whole paragraph is actually what the author wrote and his ideas, or simply just poorly and very loosely paraphrased by a mischievous wiki editor who has editorialised the section in order to put his own "spin" for the purpose of putting the Italians in a bad light.
I am sorry, but unless this section of this article is improved drastically, then I will have no choice but to delete or alter as much as 70% of it. AnnalesSchool ( talk) 05:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)