Article has only just been set up today (9th June) and I have created an informative page. However there is room for improvement and this should have been considered before deletion request, that the article has only just been set up and further substance shall be added. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I am no expert, so if you wish to quote WP rules go ahead, make my day. I hope it is recognised what the page was, and the effort I put in to it. It seems a might unfair to dismiss the article as soon as it has begun. It does have merits but it takes time to build an article. I would like to suggest it is NOT merged with Liverpool urban area as that page includes areas outside what I would consider Greater Liverpool (ie St Helens). I am not seeking to offend anyone, however please give me a chance Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Malleus Fatuarum for your kind comment, as long as people do not rush to remove my page in the next 24 hours I shall find reliable sources. It is puzzling to me that I cannot put across to people (as I am a scouser) that St Helens is not part of a Greater Liverpool because St Helens is of a different dialect, a rugby league town. Greater Liverpool also is not the same as Greater Merseyside/ City Region as they are based on 6 boroughs working together including St Helens and Halton. Hardly along the lines that I made in the page. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 00:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I am told not to enter into personal attacks. I view that as a personal attack. For some reason you take offence to this article. The information is self explanitory, I just need some references. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 09:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes I do understand your concern to a degree, Ghmyrtle has suggested that the page I have done contains original research which I had a look at but I don't get. Having said that I am not trying to force my opinions on to Wikipedia. There a number of these terms as you have previously commented on, for me to suggest 'greater Liverpool' is to inform and identify the modern-day concept of what is, what makes Liverpool, it's cuture and it's people and also to distinguish between these other terms which are a based on a broader slice of the region and are to do with things like economy and tourism. I've noted the opposition and while I would like to say I have references to back up my claim I do not have too many references and what I have may not be enough. I have also noted the request to merge with the Liverpool Urban Area. The difference is the Liverpool Urban Area page includes St Helens and Haydock based on the ONS but St Helens and Haydock are more Lancashire towns and even their dialect is different it is not Scouse. I have asked the ONS to explain why they include St Helens and Haydock and also why they do not include other areas like Maghull and Kirkby for example. I know from past experience there will be those that will argue all of these places are separate towns in their own right and I do not disagree. But their is close link to the city of Liverpool which is not quite the same for St Helens. When Liverpool expanded 150, 100 years ago it expanded in to neighbouring towns. I am not saying the city should expand again but their is a 'greater Liverpool' area that passes the city council's existing boundaries. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 10:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I Googled the term. It seems to be in unofficial use here and there, and
this contains some interesting comments (one man includes
Winsford and
Wrexham!); but
this map from Macclesfield Councilthe Borough of Macclesfield website is intriguing. Unfortunately it only goes as far north as Huyton (approx), but the term is being used in respect of a specified area. I can't investigate further now as lunchtime is over, but I thought it may be useful to throw it into the mix and see if any similar, more definitive sources can be found.
Hassocks
5489 (tickets please!)
12:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
A map showing the ONS definition of the "urban area" is here. The way the ONS justify their approach to definition, from this, is as follows - "...the definition of an urban area is an extent of at least 20 hectares and at least 1,500 residents at the time of the 2001 Census. The starting point is the identification by OS (Ordnance Survey) of areas with land use which is irreversibly urban in character. This comprises permanent structures and the land on which they are situated, including land enclosed by or closely associated with such structures; transportation corridors such as roads, railways and canals which have built up land on one or both sides, or which link built-up sites which are less than 200 metres apart; transportation features such as airports and operational airfields, railway yards, motorway service areas and car parks; mine buildings, excluding mineral workings and quarries; and any area completely surrounded by builtup sites. Areas such as playing fields and golf courses are excluded unless completely surrounded by builtup sites. The prerequisite for the recognition of an urban area is that the area of urban land should extend for 20 hectares or more. Separate areas of urban land are linked if less than 200 metres apart. Land between built-up areas is not regarded as urban unless it satisfies one of the conditions listed above." Ghmyrtle ( talk) 21:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The links I have added are not all to do with 'Greater Liverpool'. It is to say that not everyone thinks in the way some of you Wikipedians about this. That you can be brought under the Liverpool banner even if you are not in the city. The Port of Liverpool one example, the National Museums Merseyside was rebranded to Liverpool even though it contains locations in the Wirral. Even the existing ONS include St Helens under the Liverpool banner. Not that I agree with that one. But where I am coming from is that the modern Liverpool area includes Knowsley and South Sefton although there is no current arrangement to show this. The pdf map above is bang on Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Following this discussion, I have drafted a possible text of a merged article, here. Comments welcome. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 15:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm the original author of this page and although I do agree with User RFBailey sentiments, I have to agree the Liverpool Urban Area is best place. Having said that ONS for information purposes only compile the statistics, the actual make up of the Liverpool UA is down to Department for Communities and Local Government which I have emailed to ask questions on the Liverpool UA. Discussions should be moved to the talk page on Liverpool Urban Area Dmcm2008 ( talk) 11:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Article has only just been set up today (9th June) and I have created an informative page. However there is room for improvement and this should have been considered before deletion request, that the article has only just been set up and further substance shall be added. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I am no expert, so if you wish to quote WP rules go ahead, make my day. I hope it is recognised what the page was, and the effort I put in to it. It seems a might unfair to dismiss the article as soon as it has begun. It does have merits but it takes time to build an article. I would like to suggest it is NOT merged with Liverpool urban area as that page includes areas outside what I would consider Greater Liverpool (ie St Helens). I am not seeking to offend anyone, however please give me a chance Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Malleus Fatuarum for your kind comment, as long as people do not rush to remove my page in the next 24 hours I shall find reliable sources. It is puzzling to me that I cannot put across to people (as I am a scouser) that St Helens is not part of a Greater Liverpool because St Helens is of a different dialect, a rugby league town. Greater Liverpool also is not the same as Greater Merseyside/ City Region as they are based on 6 boroughs working together including St Helens and Halton. Hardly along the lines that I made in the page. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 00:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I am told not to enter into personal attacks. I view that as a personal attack. For some reason you take offence to this article. The information is self explanitory, I just need some references. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 09:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes I do understand your concern to a degree, Ghmyrtle has suggested that the page I have done contains original research which I had a look at but I don't get. Having said that I am not trying to force my opinions on to Wikipedia. There a number of these terms as you have previously commented on, for me to suggest 'greater Liverpool' is to inform and identify the modern-day concept of what is, what makes Liverpool, it's cuture and it's people and also to distinguish between these other terms which are a based on a broader slice of the region and are to do with things like economy and tourism. I've noted the opposition and while I would like to say I have references to back up my claim I do not have too many references and what I have may not be enough. I have also noted the request to merge with the Liverpool Urban Area. The difference is the Liverpool Urban Area page includes St Helens and Haydock based on the ONS but St Helens and Haydock are more Lancashire towns and even their dialect is different it is not Scouse. I have asked the ONS to explain why they include St Helens and Haydock and also why they do not include other areas like Maghull and Kirkby for example. I know from past experience there will be those that will argue all of these places are separate towns in their own right and I do not disagree. But their is close link to the city of Liverpool which is not quite the same for St Helens. When Liverpool expanded 150, 100 years ago it expanded in to neighbouring towns. I am not saying the city should expand again but their is a 'greater Liverpool' area that passes the city council's existing boundaries. Dmcm2008 ( talk) 10:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I Googled the term. It seems to be in unofficial use here and there, and
this contains some interesting comments (one man includes
Winsford and
Wrexham!); but
this map from Macclesfield Councilthe Borough of Macclesfield website is intriguing. Unfortunately it only goes as far north as Huyton (approx), but the term is being used in respect of a specified area. I can't investigate further now as lunchtime is over, but I thought it may be useful to throw it into the mix and see if any similar, more definitive sources can be found.
Hassocks
5489 (tickets please!)
12:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
A map showing the ONS definition of the "urban area" is here. The way the ONS justify their approach to definition, from this, is as follows - "...the definition of an urban area is an extent of at least 20 hectares and at least 1,500 residents at the time of the 2001 Census. The starting point is the identification by OS (Ordnance Survey) of areas with land use which is irreversibly urban in character. This comprises permanent structures and the land on which they are situated, including land enclosed by or closely associated with such structures; transportation corridors such as roads, railways and canals which have built up land on one or both sides, or which link built-up sites which are less than 200 metres apart; transportation features such as airports and operational airfields, railway yards, motorway service areas and car parks; mine buildings, excluding mineral workings and quarries; and any area completely surrounded by builtup sites. Areas such as playing fields and golf courses are excluded unless completely surrounded by builtup sites. The prerequisite for the recognition of an urban area is that the area of urban land should extend for 20 hectares or more. Separate areas of urban land are linked if less than 200 metres apart. Land between built-up areas is not regarded as urban unless it satisfies one of the conditions listed above." Ghmyrtle ( talk) 21:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The links I have added are not all to do with 'Greater Liverpool'. It is to say that not everyone thinks in the way some of you Wikipedians about this. That you can be brought under the Liverpool banner even if you are not in the city. The Port of Liverpool one example, the National Museums Merseyside was rebranded to Liverpool even though it contains locations in the Wirral. Even the existing ONS include St Helens under the Liverpool banner. Not that I agree with that one. But where I am coming from is that the modern Liverpool area includes Knowsley and South Sefton although there is no current arrangement to show this. The pdf map above is bang on Dmcm2008 ( talk) 22:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Following this discussion, I have drafted a possible text of a merged article, here. Comments welcome. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 15:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm the original author of this page and although I do agree with User RFBailey sentiments, I have to agree the Liverpool Urban Area is best place. Having said that ONS for information purposes only compile the statistics, the actual make up of the Liverpool UA is down to Department for Communities and Local Government which I have emailed to ask questions on the Liverpool UA. Discussions should be moved to the talk page on Liverpool Urban Area Dmcm2008 ( talk) 11:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)