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Hmmm... so where does However there was one catastrophic dip in the weather during the Medieval Warm Period that coincided with the onset of the Great Famine. Between 1310 and 1330 northern Europe saw some of the worst and most substained periods of bad weather in the entire Middle Ages, characterized by severe winters and rainy and cold summers. come from? William M. Connolley 20:26:34, 2005-09-05 (UTC).
"However there was one catastrophic dip in the weather during the Medieval Warm Period..." I do not understand the meaning of this part of the sentence. The Medieval Warm Period is usually (wikipedia elsewhere) considered to end 1250, so this Great Famine would not be included into the Warm Period? Jan Kunnas ( talk) 11:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
The evidence for cannibalism during the Great Famine is ambiguous and controversial for historians. There are reports from Livonia and Estonia, as well as Ireland and most other parts of Europe. Many historians discount it as being impossible, that in a time when the Renaissance was just starting, while Dante was creating one of the greatest works of literature in history, at the same time people in Europe were eating one another. However, perhaps it says more about modern values, which attribute cannibalism to "the other", than about the realities of people doing whatever it took to survive.
Which historians? When? Is this still disputed today? And the Renaissance did not "start" until a century later. Bastie 20:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Also, the picture is of the Irish famine of six centuries later. Could we not find a more appropriate image? Bastie 20:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Information added on the Little Ice Age. With links. Note to Bastie above: the Renaissance is considered by many scholars to have started as early as the 1300s and some the 1200s. It was certainly in full swing by the 3rd quarter of the 14th century 70.26.11.45 04:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
No reason given for the contradict tag. It is just a controversial topic, doesnt mean its contradictory. Removed the "citation needed" -- it is the first book on the subject. Dont know what else to say. Read the book if you dont believe it, its self-citational and has an extensive bibliography. -- Stbalbach 02:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this
I get the idea, maybe it can go in the article but not in this form, you can't say that it's a disputed view and then present your own view as "reality". I tried rephrasing but I didn't find a satisfying result. Try something like "Some historians this, while others that" And find a source, when the topic is controversial. Piet 14:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 15:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's going to be stated that there are reports of cannibalism then the sources should be listed and should be clear. Otherwise it would be better to not to state that it has been reported at all. Ronank 02:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone remove that picture. That has nothing to do with the Great Famine. That would be like using a picture of Normandy to describe a civil war in Africa.
-Tony
This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. -- RelHistBuff 10:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so please tell me how "while Dante was creating one of the greatest works of literature in history" is not a) a POV, b) Euro-centric, c) too dramatic to be encyclopaedic. Ambarish 05:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Using the average life expectancy to prove that "old age" in this period was considered 30 years of age is misleading, as the average life expectancy figure is simply a mathematical average that is affected by infant and childhood mortality. If someone was able to live into young adulthood or able to withstand the Black Death, through genetic immunity or other factors, they had as good a chance of living into their 60s or even later as any other human living in any other time frame (except of course the 20th century for developed Western nations which DID increase life expectancy significantly). This claim that people only "lived to the age of 30" in "X" time period is widespread but wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.216.99 ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 26 February 2007
Also, the sentence structure referring to the English royal family records leaves the claim of life expectancy ambiguous - Is the life expectancy for the royal family or for commoners? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.193.60.189 (
talk) 20:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there a map of affected area of Europe available? The description "from Russia to Ireland and from Scandinavia to Alps" is not very descriptive. The famine did not hurt Poland or Hungary for example. So, it should be more detailed. Merewyn ( talk) 19:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
In the current revision, the last paragraph of the section "Great Famine" offers speculation that this crop failure might have been due to natural events; however, no evidence is offered for conditions elsewhere in the world where we have historical records, for example China, Japan -- or the lands of the Middle East. (For the record, there is no indication of crop failures in Ethiopia at this time, although the historical record in that country at the time is so fragmentary that this is hardly conclusive by itself.) -- llywrch ( talk) 18:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Problem with accuracy of farming ratios or grain yeilds. In this article I read "By comparison, modern farming has ratios of 200:1 or more". but in the Medieval demogrophy article there is a statistic of 30:1 as being modern grain yeilds... I had a quick check arround but could not find a conclusive answer to the problem.. help appreciated.
This section is unsourced and reads like original research. I have deleted it; if someone can find a source, they can re-insert the section. Wkharrisjr ( talk) 13:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I edited this page today, changing "Stores of grain for long-term emergencies were limited to the lords and nobles." to "Stores of grain for long-term emergencies were hoarded by the many of the rich." I did so as the earlier version excluded rich merchants, clergy, black marketeers, etc, from the class of people who could buy grain, and the verb for this is indeed hoarding. The user Dia, reverted this and admonished me on my talkpage not to remove other people's stuff.
I'm quite inexperienced with this and not familiar with the culture here, does my edit not read the way I meant it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtdriver ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
There are several problems with this section. First, one expects that the headlines reflects the number of consequences. Second, it is said: "Third was the failure of the Medieval governments to deal with the crisis. Just as God seemed unable or unwilling to answer prayers, the earthly powers were equally ineffective, eroding and undermining their power and authority." Besides the fictional tone of the phrase "Just as God seemed...", it is not clear why the failure of the Medieval goverments is a consequence. It seems to be either a cause or a conciedence (in the sense of something co-ocurring), but in no case a consequence. I suggest to completly remove this from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.202.149 ( talk) 13:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Article says, "At first the Irish/Scottish alliance seemed unstoppable, winning battle after battle and gaining control of most of Ireland in less than a year, seemingly on the verge of driving the Anglo-Norman settlers out of Ireland altogether." After that one expects to read something like, "But the Anglo-Normans took heart & whipped the Irish/Scottish next year." But instead of that the article seems to say that the I/S went on to victory. Thus the "seemed unstoppable" needs revision. Should it read, "The I/S began and continued an unstoppable and irresistible attack leading the total expulsion of the A-N"Â ??? ( EnochBethany ( talk) 15:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great Famine of 1315–1317/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
this is an excellent article. I wasn't able to find them in German Language. |
Last edited at 22:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 16:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Apparently: For most people there was often not enough to eat, and life was a relatively short and brutal struggle to survive to old age.
If the struggle was "to reach old age", then "relatively short" is untrue. On the other hand if the struggle is relatively short (relative to what?) then the rest of the person's life is free of struggle, which is probably not what's intended. I'd just go ahead and remove "relatively short and" but I'm not sure whether the whole thing is POV/editorialising anyway. Tonywalton Talk 20:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
What the hell is Dearth? 2601:18F:E82:A10:3568:48C0:A95A:28AC ( talk) 22:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
The article mentioned extreme rain, but what caused the rain? Were there any volcanic events in the northern hemisphere? 78.1.161.168 ( talk) 22:10, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hmmm... so where does However there was one catastrophic dip in the weather during the Medieval Warm Period that coincided with the onset of the Great Famine. Between 1310 and 1330 northern Europe saw some of the worst and most substained periods of bad weather in the entire Middle Ages, characterized by severe winters and rainy and cold summers. come from? William M. Connolley 20:26:34, 2005-09-05 (UTC).
"However there was one catastrophic dip in the weather during the Medieval Warm Period..." I do not understand the meaning of this part of the sentence. The Medieval Warm Period is usually (wikipedia elsewhere) considered to end 1250, so this Great Famine would not be included into the Warm Period? Jan Kunnas ( talk) 11:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
The evidence for cannibalism during the Great Famine is ambiguous and controversial for historians. There are reports from Livonia and Estonia, as well as Ireland and most other parts of Europe. Many historians discount it as being impossible, that in a time when the Renaissance was just starting, while Dante was creating one of the greatest works of literature in history, at the same time people in Europe were eating one another. However, perhaps it says more about modern values, which attribute cannibalism to "the other", than about the realities of people doing whatever it took to survive.
Which historians? When? Is this still disputed today? And the Renaissance did not "start" until a century later. Bastie 20:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Also, the picture is of the Irish famine of six centuries later. Could we not find a more appropriate image? Bastie 20:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Information added on the Little Ice Age. With links. Note to Bastie above: the Renaissance is considered by many scholars to have started as early as the 1300s and some the 1200s. It was certainly in full swing by the 3rd quarter of the 14th century 70.26.11.45 04:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
No reason given for the contradict tag. It is just a controversial topic, doesnt mean its contradictory. Removed the "citation needed" -- it is the first book on the subject. Dont know what else to say. Read the book if you dont believe it, its self-citational and has an extensive bibliography. -- Stbalbach 02:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this
I get the idea, maybe it can go in the article but not in this form, you can't say that it's a disputed view and then present your own view as "reality". I tried rephrasing but I didn't find a satisfying result. Try something like "Some historians this, while others that" And find a source, when the topic is controversial. Piet 14:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 15:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's going to be stated that there are reports of cannibalism then the sources should be listed and should be clear. Otherwise it would be better to not to state that it has been reported at all. Ronank 02:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone remove that picture. That has nothing to do with the Great Famine. That would be like using a picture of Normandy to describe a civil war in Africa.
-Tony
This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. -- RelHistBuff 10:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so please tell me how "while Dante was creating one of the greatest works of literature in history" is not a) a POV, b) Euro-centric, c) too dramatic to be encyclopaedic. Ambarish 05:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Using the average life expectancy to prove that "old age" in this period was considered 30 years of age is misleading, as the average life expectancy figure is simply a mathematical average that is affected by infant and childhood mortality. If someone was able to live into young adulthood or able to withstand the Black Death, through genetic immunity or other factors, they had as good a chance of living into their 60s or even later as any other human living in any other time frame (except of course the 20th century for developed Western nations which DID increase life expectancy significantly). This claim that people only "lived to the age of 30" in "X" time period is widespread but wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.216.99 ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 26 February 2007
Also, the sentence structure referring to the English royal family records leaves the claim of life expectancy ambiguous - Is the life expectancy for the royal family or for commoners? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.193.60.189 (
talk) 20:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there a map of affected area of Europe available? The description "from Russia to Ireland and from Scandinavia to Alps" is not very descriptive. The famine did not hurt Poland or Hungary for example. So, it should be more detailed. Merewyn ( talk) 19:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
In the current revision, the last paragraph of the section "Great Famine" offers speculation that this crop failure might have been due to natural events; however, no evidence is offered for conditions elsewhere in the world where we have historical records, for example China, Japan -- or the lands of the Middle East. (For the record, there is no indication of crop failures in Ethiopia at this time, although the historical record in that country at the time is so fragmentary that this is hardly conclusive by itself.) -- llywrch ( talk) 18:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Problem with accuracy of farming ratios or grain yeilds. In this article I read "By comparison, modern farming has ratios of 200:1 or more". but in the Medieval demogrophy article there is a statistic of 30:1 as being modern grain yeilds... I had a quick check arround but could not find a conclusive answer to the problem.. help appreciated.
This section is unsourced and reads like original research. I have deleted it; if someone can find a source, they can re-insert the section. Wkharrisjr ( talk) 13:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I edited this page today, changing "Stores of grain for long-term emergencies were limited to the lords and nobles." to "Stores of grain for long-term emergencies were hoarded by the many of the rich." I did so as the earlier version excluded rich merchants, clergy, black marketeers, etc, from the class of people who could buy grain, and the verb for this is indeed hoarding. The user Dia, reverted this and admonished me on my talkpage not to remove other people's stuff.
I'm quite inexperienced with this and not familiar with the culture here, does my edit not read the way I meant it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtdriver ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
There are several problems with this section. First, one expects that the headlines reflects the number of consequences. Second, it is said: "Third was the failure of the Medieval governments to deal with the crisis. Just as God seemed unable or unwilling to answer prayers, the earthly powers were equally ineffective, eroding and undermining their power and authority." Besides the fictional tone of the phrase "Just as God seemed...", it is not clear why the failure of the Medieval goverments is a consequence. It seems to be either a cause or a conciedence (in the sense of something co-ocurring), but in no case a consequence. I suggest to completly remove this from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.202.149 ( talk) 13:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Article says, "At first the Irish/Scottish alliance seemed unstoppable, winning battle after battle and gaining control of most of Ireland in less than a year, seemingly on the verge of driving the Anglo-Norman settlers out of Ireland altogether." After that one expects to read something like, "But the Anglo-Normans took heart & whipped the Irish/Scottish next year." But instead of that the article seems to say that the I/S went on to victory. Thus the "seemed unstoppable" needs revision. Should it read, "The I/S began and continued an unstoppable and irresistible attack leading the total expulsion of the A-N"Â ??? ( EnochBethany ( talk) 15:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great Famine of 1315–1317/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
this is an excellent article. I wasn't able to find them in German Language. |
Last edited at 22:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 16:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Apparently: For most people there was often not enough to eat, and life was a relatively short and brutal struggle to survive to old age.
If the struggle was "to reach old age", then "relatively short" is untrue. On the other hand if the struggle is relatively short (relative to what?) then the rest of the person's life is free of struggle, which is probably not what's intended. I'd just go ahead and remove "relatively short and" but I'm not sure whether the whole thing is POV/editorialising anyway. Tonywalton Talk 20:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
What the hell is Dearth? 2601:18F:E82:A10:3568:48C0:A95A:28AC ( talk) 22:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
The article mentioned extreme rain, but what caused the rain? Were there any volcanic events in the northern hemisphere? 78.1.161.168 ( talk) 22:10, 19 November 2023 (UTC)