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There are several issues with sourcing in the "Controversy" section. First, it says that the expulsion was "under the pretense of 'gray rape'". This use of the word " pretense" implies dishonesty on the part of the university, which does not seem to be supported by either source. Second, it says Jane Doe "admitted the sex was consensual at the time", something which does not seem to be supported by either source. AFAICT, the most that the sources say is that according to the judge, "Jane Doe never asked plaintiff to stop or advise him that she did not want to have sex" (this might or might not qualify as consent, depending on who you ask, as the definition of consent is not entirely uncontroversial). Third, it says that Jane Doe regretted the encounter "after seeing him kiss another girl". The source that mentions this is very careful to qualify this with the word "reportedly", and we should follow suit. Fourth, it says that Jane Doe "cited Lauren Kozak's concept, 'regret equals rape'". This is not supported by the source, which only says that "Kozak reportedly suggested regret over a sexual encounter equals rape", not that Jane Doe agreed.
Since this is a controversial topic, it is especially important that we stick rigorously to the sources and not draw our own conclusions, even if they seem natural. Please let me know if I have missed something in one of the sources; otherwise, all of these issues need to be addressed. — Granger ( talk · contribs) 16:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Website is a "a Canadian nonprofit that educates and emphasizes the concept on consent in relationships, sexual harassment in any form is a type of “gender bullying.” [1] Why would this be unreliable? Valoem talk contrib 20:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Why should this be its own article instead of a section in the Date rape article? The term gray rape is a neologism, which puts it in the WP:NEO camp, and it's highly debated with minimal scholarly sources discussing it. Because of this, I'm thinking of nominating this article for deletion. If it's mainly supposed to be about the term instead of presenting this as a distinct concept, however, which currently looks to be the case, I can see a better rationale for its existence. It makes the article less of a WP:Content fork issue. And if it's a term article, "Gray rape is sex for which consent is unclear." should probably be changed to "Gray rape is a term for sex in which consent is unclear." Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe vital details have been removed from the Washington and Lee case. All sources say that after seeing John Doe kiss another girl Jane pressed charges, this is a vital detail as it shows the motivation for the charges (which John settled as "wrongly accused of sexual misconduct"). Because this has been stated by two reliable sources the onus is on you to explain why the detail is excessive. Do not revert without discussion. Valoem talk contrib 06:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Here, why are you removing a phrase directly cited by the source? Here is the source, here is what it says “Certainly, in the criminal justice system there’s no such thing as gray rape,” said Ms. Fairstein, now a media consultant and crime novelist. She added: “Gray rape is not a new term and not a new experience. For journalists, it may be, but for those of us who had worked in advocacy or law enforcement, this description of something being in a gray area has been around all the time. It’s always been my job in law enforcement to separate out the facts.”, and also “There is a gray area in which one person’s rape may be another’s bad night.” Valoem talk contrib 07:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Linda Fairstein, who was chief of the sex crimes unit at the Manhattan district attorney’s office for 25 years, until 2002, said she did not believe the article introduced anything new from a legal standpoint.
It appears she is highly skeptical of gray rape as actual rape. @ Isaidnoway:, @ Darwinian Ape: for third party opinion. Valoem talk contrib 20:51, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm just quaking in my boots at this threat to take me to AN/I, but I will continue to remove original research from the article. Keep making things up that are not in the source, Valoem, and I'll keep deleting them. That's a promise. By the way, I'm not a big fan of half-complete quotes that twist the meaning of what a person says, either, so please don't try that again. [2] — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 03:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
What I mean is that the rape part implies rape, yet the definition says that consent is unclear; if consent was unclear, the rape part jumps the gun the same way calling it Gray Consent would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylenielsen ( talk • contribs)
This article is in need of some serious cleanup- I'll make a start on this in the coming days. I'm going to rate this C Class for now following the classification from WikiProject Feminism
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are several issues with sourcing in the "Controversy" section. First, it says that the expulsion was "under the pretense of 'gray rape'". This use of the word " pretense" implies dishonesty on the part of the university, which does not seem to be supported by either source. Second, it says Jane Doe "admitted the sex was consensual at the time", something which does not seem to be supported by either source. AFAICT, the most that the sources say is that according to the judge, "Jane Doe never asked plaintiff to stop or advise him that she did not want to have sex" (this might or might not qualify as consent, depending on who you ask, as the definition of consent is not entirely uncontroversial). Third, it says that Jane Doe regretted the encounter "after seeing him kiss another girl". The source that mentions this is very careful to qualify this with the word "reportedly", and we should follow suit. Fourth, it says that Jane Doe "cited Lauren Kozak's concept, 'regret equals rape'". This is not supported by the source, which only says that "Kozak reportedly suggested regret over a sexual encounter equals rape", not that Jane Doe agreed.
Since this is a controversial topic, it is especially important that we stick rigorously to the sources and not draw our own conclusions, even if they seem natural. Please let me know if I have missed something in one of the sources; otherwise, all of these issues need to be addressed. — Granger ( talk · contribs) 16:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Website is a "a Canadian nonprofit that educates and emphasizes the concept on consent in relationships, sexual harassment in any form is a type of “gender bullying.” [1] Why would this be unreliable? Valoem talk contrib 20:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Why should this be its own article instead of a section in the Date rape article? The term gray rape is a neologism, which puts it in the WP:NEO camp, and it's highly debated with minimal scholarly sources discussing it. Because of this, I'm thinking of nominating this article for deletion. If it's mainly supposed to be about the term instead of presenting this as a distinct concept, however, which currently looks to be the case, I can see a better rationale for its existence. It makes the article less of a WP:Content fork issue. And if it's a term article, "Gray rape is sex for which consent is unclear." should probably be changed to "Gray rape is a term for sex in which consent is unclear." Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe vital details have been removed from the Washington and Lee case. All sources say that after seeing John Doe kiss another girl Jane pressed charges, this is a vital detail as it shows the motivation for the charges (which John settled as "wrongly accused of sexual misconduct"). Because this has been stated by two reliable sources the onus is on you to explain why the detail is excessive. Do not revert without discussion. Valoem talk contrib 06:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Here, why are you removing a phrase directly cited by the source? Here is the source, here is what it says “Certainly, in the criminal justice system there’s no such thing as gray rape,” said Ms. Fairstein, now a media consultant and crime novelist. She added: “Gray rape is not a new term and not a new experience. For journalists, it may be, but for those of us who had worked in advocacy or law enforcement, this description of something being in a gray area has been around all the time. It’s always been my job in law enforcement to separate out the facts.”, and also “There is a gray area in which one person’s rape may be another’s bad night.” Valoem talk contrib 07:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Linda Fairstein, who was chief of the sex crimes unit at the Manhattan district attorney’s office for 25 years, until 2002, said she did not believe the article introduced anything new from a legal standpoint.
It appears she is highly skeptical of gray rape as actual rape. @ Isaidnoway:, @ Darwinian Ape: for third party opinion. Valoem talk contrib 20:51, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm just quaking in my boots at this threat to take me to AN/I, but I will continue to remove original research from the article. Keep making things up that are not in the source, Valoem, and I'll keep deleting them. That's a promise. By the way, I'm not a big fan of half-complete quotes that twist the meaning of what a person says, either, so please don't try that again. [2] — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 03:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
What I mean is that the rape part implies rape, yet the definition says that consent is unclear; if consent was unclear, the rape part jumps the gun the same way calling it Gray Consent would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylenielsen ( talk • contribs)
This article is in need of some serious cleanup- I'll make a start on this in the coming days. I'm going to rate this C Class for now following the classification from WikiProject Feminism