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If anyone would like to know, I am working on making this section into a table, ala what I did with Phish discography. You can see my progress so far at User:Moeron/Sandbox01 and feel free to comment at User talk:Moeron/Sandbox01. Cheers! -- MOE.RON talk | done | doing 17:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is one case where putting the studio albums and the live albums in separate sequences makes no sense. The original Dead live albums, such as Live Dead, Skull & Roses, Europe '72, were just as much new releases of new material as the studio albums, and just as much as part of the Dead evolution and story. As such, they deserve to be intermixed. 02:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Moeron, are you sure that Bear's Choice really belongs in the "current" list? The concert was already three years old at its time of release, and as the article says, it was sort of released as a tribute to an earlier sound of the band. On the other hand, it did have a lot of material in it that hadn't appeared before. Wasted Time R 19:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should explain the reasoning itself then, and not just allude to it. While I can see some wispy argument on the side of currency--as with most of the live albums, some of the Bear's Choice tunes weren't out on GD records--it is also indisputable that the incarnation of the band represented was no longer current. The star of Bear's Choice shows was Pigpen. By the time of the record's release, Pig was in his grave.
By way of comparison, Infrared Roses is listed here as a "retrospective" album, and while it too features a deceased bandmember, Brent Mydland, it also features his successors in the then-current incarnation of the band, and in any event is much more representative of what the band was doing (for portions of their shows) at the time of its release, than Bear's Choice.
As noted, perhaps there are arguments each way, but I can't see the argument that calls Bear's Choice "current" AND Infrared Roses "retrospective." Personally, I'd flip them. Spark240 ( talk) 02:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm at it, what's the rationale for describing Grayfolded a "live" GD album, while Anthem of the Sun is described as a studio? Both involved audio tracks that were recorded in live performances and then recombined and manipulated to form the issued record; in the case of Grayfolded this (massive) manipulation wasn't even done by the band! What amount of studio work makes a live recording into a studio album? (Merl's overdubs on Europe '72?)
Grayfolded isn't really a GD album at all; it's a John Oswald studio remix of the GD. Spark240 ( talk) 03:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
In the RIAA column, does "Multiplatinum" mean two-or-more times platinum, or does it mean exactly two times platinum? Normal English usage would suggest the first, but the entry for Skeletons in the Closet suggests the second. Wasted Time R 23:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I see you've fixed the article to indicate "Double Platinum", so this is resolved. Wasted Time R 12:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Is Dylan & The Dead missing from the discography by accident or on purpose? Wasted Time R 04:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
How isn't it similar? Crazy Horse toured with Young, joint touring and opening shows for him before playing as his backing band. They even did a live album with Young in the same vein, Weld (album), which is also considered a Young album. -- MOE.RON talk | done | doing 19:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the right place for this, and if it isn't I'm sorry, but is anyone working on the Grateful Dead album pages that currently have no artwork or track listing information? I'd very much like to add those to the pages, but I can't do much about the information on the albums because I'm just now getting into the Grateful Dead and I'm still learning. Thanks. RitchieM4812
hiya, i just created a Singles discography, the information is from this website: http://tcgdd.freeyellow.com/tcgdd.html. Thank You Doc Strange 15:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Any particular reason why Grayfolded (a collection of a bunch of Dark Stars) is left out from the list? I'd add it, but I'm not good enough with tables yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayfolded OSU871316 02:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
An editor has removed the album cover images from this article, saying "rm fair-use images from list/gallery per Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #8". However, I believe the album cover images are in fact allowed in discography articles under fair use guidelines and policies. I have submitted this question to "Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)", here. — Mudwater 21:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm copying the discussion below from Morven's user talk page, where I asked for his opinion on this matter. Although he is an administrator and a member of the Arbitration Committee, he is giving his views here unofficially, as a fellow Wikipedia editor. I thought that what he has to say is interesting and adds to the discussion, so I'm posting it here. My own opinion is still that (1) the album cover images are allowed in discography articles under fair use guidelines, (2) the guidelines are more than a little ambiguous on this particular question, and (3) there is not a consensus about this issue. That said, there clearly are a number of editors who believe that the images should be removed, and I appreciate that their intention is to protect Wikipedia by preventing it from violating copyright laws. — Mudwater 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greetings, Morven. There is currently a dispute about whether or not including images of album covers in discography articles is allowed under the fair use guidelines. Some editors are removing the album cover images from the discography articles. Other editors feel that the images are allowed under fair use.
(1) What is your opinion on whether or not the album cover images are fair use in discography articles?
(2) Do you think this is an appropriate question for the arbitration committee?
Here is a discussion of this question on the talk page of a discography article. Here's one on a user talk page. I posted this question two days ago on the Village Pump here, but only one person has replied so far. Here is a lengthier discussion, on the administrators' noticeboard, of a different but somewhat similar question, whether screenshots are allowed in articles about all the episodes of a television show. To see an example of a discography before its images were removed, click here.
If you reply here I'll check back and see what you wrote. Thanks in advance. — Mudwater 01:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is now a further discussion of album cover images in discography articles, at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Why remove images from discographies? — Mudwater 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
At the current time there are a number of discussions going on about the use of album cover images in discographies, and also in articles about albums. Some of these discussions include other, related topics, such as what fair use rationales should be required for images, and the fair use of copyrighted images other than album covers. To see or participate in some of these discussions, see multiple sections of Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, Wikipedia talk:Fair use rationale guideline, and Talk:The Beatles discography. — Mudwater 00:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Part of the debate is about what fair use rationales should be required for copyrighted images such as album covers. Some images have an album cover template but don't also have a separately worded rationale, or they have a rationale that might not be up to standards, whatever those are. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#BetacommandBot and Fair use. — Mudwater 16:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The "Studio and current live albums" section was recently split into two subsections, studio and live. I think it would be much better to go back to one combined section, with all those albums in chronological order. As it says in the article, "More so than most bands, the Grateful Dead frequently released live albums that filled the role of conventional studio albums, in that they were recently recorded and often contained newly-written material not on any studio album. An integral part of the contemporaneous evolution of the band, such live albums are included in this section." So, in sharp contrast to some other bands, their non-retrospective discography is much better viewed with studio and live albums combined. Also, there is a previous discussion about this on this talk page, in the #Live albums section. — Mudwater ( Talk) 14:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Recently the "Studio and contemporary live albums" section was split into two sections, one for studio and one for live. However, as it said in the discography until this change was made, "Unconventionally, the Grateful Dead made the release of live albums a common occurrence throughout their career. Because many were recently recorded and included previously unreleased original material, they often filled the role of traditional studio albums. An integral part of the contemporaneous evolution of the band, such live albums are included in this section." So, those two sections should be recombined. — Mudwater ( Talk) 12:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
An editor has created a new article called View from the Vault, and is proposing that four Grateful Dead album articles be merged into this one new article -- View from the Vault, Volume One, View from the Vault, Volume Two, View from the Vault, Volume Three, and View from the Vault, Volume Four. Editors who are interested in articles about Grateful Dead albums are requested to comment on this proposal, at Talk:View from the Vault#Merge with constituent albums. Thanks. — Mudwater ( Talk) 01:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we should add Vintage Dead and Historic Dead to the discography -- either in the "Studio and contemporary live albums" section or in a new section. (They're already listed in the "Live albums by recording date" section.) These albums were recorded live in 1966 and were released on the Sunflower Records label, a subsidiary of MGM records, in 1970 and 1971, respectively. I read somewhere that these are legal, non-bootleg albums, but that the band had no say in their release and didn't like them. There are also two compilation albums that contain tracks from Vintage Dead and Historic Dead, but I'd suggest leaving those out of the discography. It's hard to find references for all this, but for starters see http://www.deaddisc.com/GDFD_Grateful_Dead.htm#semilegal. "P.S." I'd also be in favor of Vintage Dead and Historic Dead having their own articles. — Mudwater ( Talk) 01:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose the following guidelines for classifying Grateful Dead albums, for purposes of setting the "type" parameter in the infobox of album articles, and for deciding which section of the discography to put them in. I've looked at WikiProject Albums and elsewhere, but I haven't found any clear guidelines or definitions about this.
This would mean that the only box sets are Dead Zone, The Golden Road, Beyond Description, and The Warner Bros. Studio Albums. It would also mean that, in the discography, So Many Roads and So Many Roads Sampler should be moved from "Compilations and box sets" to the "Traditional releases" sub-section of the "Retrospective live albums" section. If I get a chance I'm going to move those two, and also update some album article infoboxes, but either way other editors are encouraged to give their opinion here. — Mudwater ( Talk) 00:34, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Recently a number of updates were made to this discography. As part of that some very useful material was removed. I'm going to restore the deleted section "Live albums by recording date". When I get a chance I'll check back and see if I think there's any other information that needs to be restored. Note: Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style#Ignore all rules, "Every artist is different, and therefore no two discographies will be exactly the same. Therefore, if there is a reasonable justification for deviating from the above guidelines to most accurately or appropriately document an artist's body of work, then ignore all the rules and go with what's best for the article...." — Mudwater ( Talk) 13:09, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
The Grateful Dead table shows the 7 albums released between 1973 & 1980 as being on Warner Bros. Records; this is incorrect. Wake of the Flood, Mars Hotel, Blues for Allah & Steal Your Face were on Grateful Dead Records while the others were on Arista. The 1987-90 albums are also shown as being released by Warner Bros. when in fact they too were released by Arista (In the Dark, Built to Last & Without a Net). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.20.235 ( talk) 08:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:Europe '72: The Complete Recordings#Europe '72 "Swinging" Singles. Please comment there so we can have one centralized discussion. Thanks. — Mudwater ( Talk) 22:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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If anyone would like to know, I am working on making this section into a table, ala what I did with Phish discography. You can see my progress so far at User:Moeron/Sandbox01 and feel free to comment at User talk:Moeron/Sandbox01. Cheers! -- MOE.RON talk | done | doing 17:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is one case where putting the studio albums and the live albums in separate sequences makes no sense. The original Dead live albums, such as Live Dead, Skull & Roses, Europe '72, were just as much new releases of new material as the studio albums, and just as much as part of the Dead evolution and story. As such, they deserve to be intermixed. 02:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Moeron, are you sure that Bear's Choice really belongs in the "current" list? The concert was already three years old at its time of release, and as the article says, it was sort of released as a tribute to an earlier sound of the band. On the other hand, it did have a lot of material in it that hadn't appeared before. Wasted Time R 19:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should explain the reasoning itself then, and not just allude to it. While I can see some wispy argument on the side of currency--as with most of the live albums, some of the Bear's Choice tunes weren't out on GD records--it is also indisputable that the incarnation of the band represented was no longer current. The star of Bear's Choice shows was Pigpen. By the time of the record's release, Pig was in his grave.
By way of comparison, Infrared Roses is listed here as a "retrospective" album, and while it too features a deceased bandmember, Brent Mydland, it also features his successors in the then-current incarnation of the band, and in any event is much more representative of what the band was doing (for portions of their shows) at the time of its release, than Bear's Choice.
As noted, perhaps there are arguments each way, but I can't see the argument that calls Bear's Choice "current" AND Infrared Roses "retrospective." Personally, I'd flip them. Spark240 ( talk) 02:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm at it, what's the rationale for describing Grayfolded a "live" GD album, while Anthem of the Sun is described as a studio? Both involved audio tracks that were recorded in live performances and then recombined and manipulated to form the issued record; in the case of Grayfolded this (massive) manipulation wasn't even done by the band! What amount of studio work makes a live recording into a studio album? (Merl's overdubs on Europe '72?)
Grayfolded isn't really a GD album at all; it's a John Oswald studio remix of the GD. Spark240 ( talk) 03:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
In the RIAA column, does "Multiplatinum" mean two-or-more times platinum, or does it mean exactly two times platinum? Normal English usage would suggest the first, but the entry for Skeletons in the Closet suggests the second. Wasted Time R 23:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I see you've fixed the article to indicate "Double Platinum", so this is resolved. Wasted Time R 12:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Is Dylan & The Dead missing from the discography by accident or on purpose? Wasted Time R 04:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
How isn't it similar? Crazy Horse toured with Young, joint touring and opening shows for him before playing as his backing band. They even did a live album with Young in the same vein, Weld (album), which is also considered a Young album. -- MOE.RON talk | done | doing 19:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the right place for this, and if it isn't I'm sorry, but is anyone working on the Grateful Dead album pages that currently have no artwork or track listing information? I'd very much like to add those to the pages, but I can't do much about the information on the albums because I'm just now getting into the Grateful Dead and I'm still learning. Thanks. RitchieM4812
hiya, i just created a Singles discography, the information is from this website: http://tcgdd.freeyellow.com/tcgdd.html. Thank You Doc Strange 15:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Any particular reason why Grayfolded (a collection of a bunch of Dark Stars) is left out from the list? I'd add it, but I'm not good enough with tables yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayfolded OSU871316 02:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
An editor has removed the album cover images from this article, saying "rm fair-use images from list/gallery per Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #8". However, I believe the album cover images are in fact allowed in discography articles under fair use guidelines and policies. I have submitted this question to "Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)", here. — Mudwater 21:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm copying the discussion below from Morven's user talk page, where I asked for his opinion on this matter. Although he is an administrator and a member of the Arbitration Committee, he is giving his views here unofficially, as a fellow Wikipedia editor. I thought that what he has to say is interesting and adds to the discussion, so I'm posting it here. My own opinion is still that (1) the album cover images are allowed in discography articles under fair use guidelines, (2) the guidelines are more than a little ambiguous on this particular question, and (3) there is not a consensus about this issue. That said, there clearly are a number of editors who believe that the images should be removed, and I appreciate that their intention is to protect Wikipedia by preventing it from violating copyright laws. — Mudwater 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greetings, Morven. There is currently a dispute about whether or not including images of album covers in discography articles is allowed under the fair use guidelines. Some editors are removing the album cover images from the discography articles. Other editors feel that the images are allowed under fair use.
(1) What is your opinion on whether or not the album cover images are fair use in discography articles?
(2) Do you think this is an appropriate question for the arbitration committee?
Here is a discussion of this question on the talk page of a discography article. Here's one on a user talk page. I posted this question two days ago on the Village Pump here, but only one person has replied so far. Here is a lengthier discussion, on the administrators' noticeboard, of a different but somewhat similar question, whether screenshots are allowed in articles about all the episodes of a television show. To see an example of a discography before its images were removed, click here.
If you reply here I'll check back and see what you wrote. Thanks in advance. — Mudwater 01:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is now a further discussion of album cover images in discography articles, at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Why remove images from discographies? — Mudwater 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
At the current time there are a number of discussions going on about the use of album cover images in discographies, and also in articles about albums. Some of these discussions include other, related topics, such as what fair use rationales should be required for images, and the fair use of copyrighted images other than album covers. To see or participate in some of these discussions, see multiple sections of Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, Wikipedia talk:Fair use rationale guideline, and Talk:The Beatles discography. — Mudwater 00:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Part of the debate is about what fair use rationales should be required for copyrighted images such as album covers. Some images have an album cover template but don't also have a separately worded rationale, or they have a rationale that might not be up to standards, whatever those are. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#BetacommandBot and Fair use. — Mudwater 16:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The "Studio and current live albums" section was recently split into two subsections, studio and live. I think it would be much better to go back to one combined section, with all those albums in chronological order. As it says in the article, "More so than most bands, the Grateful Dead frequently released live albums that filled the role of conventional studio albums, in that they were recently recorded and often contained newly-written material not on any studio album. An integral part of the contemporaneous evolution of the band, such live albums are included in this section." So, in sharp contrast to some other bands, their non-retrospective discography is much better viewed with studio and live albums combined. Also, there is a previous discussion about this on this talk page, in the #Live albums section. — Mudwater ( Talk) 14:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Recently the "Studio and contemporary live albums" section was split into two sections, one for studio and one for live. However, as it said in the discography until this change was made, "Unconventionally, the Grateful Dead made the release of live albums a common occurrence throughout their career. Because many were recently recorded and included previously unreleased original material, they often filled the role of traditional studio albums. An integral part of the contemporaneous evolution of the band, such live albums are included in this section." So, those two sections should be recombined. — Mudwater ( Talk) 12:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
An editor has created a new article called View from the Vault, and is proposing that four Grateful Dead album articles be merged into this one new article -- View from the Vault, Volume One, View from the Vault, Volume Two, View from the Vault, Volume Three, and View from the Vault, Volume Four. Editors who are interested in articles about Grateful Dead albums are requested to comment on this proposal, at Talk:View from the Vault#Merge with constituent albums. Thanks. — Mudwater ( Talk) 01:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we should add Vintage Dead and Historic Dead to the discography -- either in the "Studio and contemporary live albums" section or in a new section. (They're already listed in the "Live albums by recording date" section.) These albums were recorded live in 1966 and were released on the Sunflower Records label, a subsidiary of MGM records, in 1970 and 1971, respectively. I read somewhere that these are legal, non-bootleg albums, but that the band had no say in their release and didn't like them. There are also two compilation albums that contain tracks from Vintage Dead and Historic Dead, but I'd suggest leaving those out of the discography. It's hard to find references for all this, but for starters see http://www.deaddisc.com/GDFD_Grateful_Dead.htm#semilegal. "P.S." I'd also be in favor of Vintage Dead and Historic Dead having their own articles. — Mudwater ( Talk) 01:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose the following guidelines for classifying Grateful Dead albums, for purposes of setting the "type" parameter in the infobox of album articles, and for deciding which section of the discography to put them in. I've looked at WikiProject Albums and elsewhere, but I haven't found any clear guidelines or definitions about this.
This would mean that the only box sets are Dead Zone, The Golden Road, Beyond Description, and The Warner Bros. Studio Albums. It would also mean that, in the discography, So Many Roads and So Many Roads Sampler should be moved from "Compilations and box sets" to the "Traditional releases" sub-section of the "Retrospective live albums" section. If I get a chance I'm going to move those two, and also update some album article infoboxes, but either way other editors are encouraged to give their opinion here. — Mudwater ( Talk) 00:34, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Recently a number of updates were made to this discography. As part of that some very useful material was removed. I'm going to restore the deleted section "Live albums by recording date". When I get a chance I'll check back and see if I think there's any other information that needs to be restored. Note: Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style#Ignore all rules, "Every artist is different, and therefore no two discographies will be exactly the same. Therefore, if there is a reasonable justification for deviating from the above guidelines to most accurately or appropriately document an artist's body of work, then ignore all the rules and go with what's best for the article...." — Mudwater ( Talk) 13:09, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
The Grateful Dead table shows the 7 albums released between 1973 & 1980 as being on Warner Bros. Records; this is incorrect. Wake of the Flood, Mars Hotel, Blues for Allah & Steal Your Face were on Grateful Dead Records while the others were on Arista. The 1987-90 albums are also shown as being released by Warner Bros. when in fact they too were released by Arista (In the Dark, Built to Last & Without a Net). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.20.235 ( talk) 08:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:Europe '72: The Complete Recordings#Europe '72 "Swinging" Singles. Please comment there so we can have one centralized discussion. Thanks. — Mudwater ( Talk) 22:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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