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The numbers do not add up and contradict the french wikipedia page Probably 350,000 Frenchmen is more accurate 680,000 men: • 550,000 Frenchmen • 95,000 Poles • 35,000 Austrians • 30,000 Italians[1] • 24,000 Bavarians • 20,000 Saxons • 20,000 Prussians • 17,000 Westphalians • 15,000 Swiss • 9,800 Danes and Norwegians[2][3] • 4,000 Portuguese • 3,500 Croats — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.12.25 ( talk) 05:43, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I was very happy to find this webpage. It gave a nice new light to the subject of my study, which concerned the recruitment of these soldiers. My case was the organisation of the conscription in a territorial unity (canton) of 19 East-flemish (ie Belgian) communes near Ghent.
I removed this because it is not a neutral point of view statement. *Kat* 07:12, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Grande Armée is consisted of seven corps:
Twejoel, I assume this is the OoB for the 1805 campaign. Which would be fine if that section were only about that, but it deals with organization in general. Maybe if you add a section on that campaign at the bottom of the article, this information can be readded there. I'm trying to get this article up to FEATURED status and your edits, while well meaning, are not really helping.-- R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that is almost done here, great job man, but let me know if ya need something about -- Philx 06:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)it.
Hi There,
I've just fleshed out the section on Line infantry, and will be doing the same with the Light Infantry. Adding some more detailed information, as well as fixing some inaccuracies (e.g. Tirailleurs were not a part of the Infanterie Légère(which was Carabiniers, Chasseurs and Voltigeurs), but rather seperate foreign formations [Tirailleurs Corses and Tirailleurs du Pô] or part of the Jeune Garde [the Tirailleurs-Grenadiers and Tirailleurs-Chasseurs]) Hope this helps -- ansbachdragoner 01:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't this article featured so far? Halibu tt 03:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe more info on the client state armies is necessary as well as info on the French navy of the napoleonic wars. Also Im making a article called French Soldiers. it is being made right now and help with the article would be VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!! Philippe Auguste 04:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi There,
I'm in the middle of expanding on the Guard. The Cav Needed a mention, and a little expansion of the Young / Middle Old Guard.-- ansbachdragoner 05:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
People STOP messing with this section; it is generally agreed that the glory years of the Grande Armee were from 1805 to 1807, when their victories permitted an end to bloodshed on the continent at Tilsit. Friedland was Napoleon's second most decisive victory, so calling it a "hard-won triumph" makes no sense; the Russians were thoroughly destroyed.
Eylau was a bloody draw, but presumably when we're talking about crowning glories we're covering the period, not just individual battles. For the Grande Armee, Eylau was a catharctic moment, since it was the first time they did not have a decisive victory. Nevertheless, the epic charge by French cavalry and the horrible snowstorm do elevate the battle to some sort of 'crowning glory,' semantics aside. Friedland was not a costly victory; you'd have to be joking to say that. The Russians lost 20,000, about 1/3 of their army, while the French only 8,000, a very very low fraction of their entire force in Poland (1/8 of the men that were at the battlefield). At Austerlitz, the French lost nearly 9,000 and the Allies about 25,000, yet you're not saying that was a costly victory now are you? Logically, you'd have to! But of course it makes no sense, just like calling Friedland a 'costly victory' makes no sense either.
Just as a matter of history, however, the great years of the Empire's armies do include 1807. And by "history" I mean the vast collection of literature; books by historians, military enthusiasts like you and I, and others are all most likely to include 1807 as part of the glory years. Furthermore, the army did not fight in 1804, so I don't know why you're including that year. It was formed then, but had no actual glory in that year. Please do not make any further changes here; history should not be sacrificed for your personal views. User:UberCryxic
I reverted the changes after taking a look at your propositions. I have read Chandler's authoritative work, at least twice from front to back. I think what he implies more than anything else is that Napoleon, not the army, suffered some sort of deterioration in 1807.
The actualy quality of the French army during 1807 was spectacular; they basically had the same mettle as the 1805 and 1806 armies. Eylau is an unfortunate battle from which to judge their effectiveness or greatness, and besides memorable courage, it doesn't indicate much. In fact, Chandler's account of that battle is pathetic and appalling; there's barely any real historical work done, and he just repeats the same sort of historical trash about how Murat's cavalry 'gloriously' rode against the Russian lines in fancy clothes, when undoubtedly all they could have done is a trot in three freaking feet deep snow, and they were wearing greatcoats up to the wazzooo. They would've looked more like zombies than cavalrymen. The French had a ferocious snowstorm driving into their faces, making any serious coordination and attacks virtually impossible. Like I said, this battle shouldn't be used to determine the greatness of the army at the period.
Friedland is far more indicative of their stature. Why? Because, perhaps more than any other engagement during the Napoleonic Wars, it displayed some of the most importance concepts underlying French strategy. Lannes was able to hold out and pin the Russians while French reinforcements swung the balance in the Emperor's favor; this was a classic demonstration of the power an isolated corps had to fend off larger opponents until additional troops could come and rescue the situation. And the result was brutal: 20,000 Russian casulaties at the cost of just 8,000. This battle was on the scale of Austerlitz, both militarily and politically. When wondering about whether to continue the struggle against Napoleon, Alexander's brother, Grand Duke Constantine, told him, "Sire, if you are considering fighting the French, you might as well give each man a bullet and let them shoot themselves." Friedland single-handedly lead to Tilsit, which many (and maybe most) historians at least regard as the height of Napoleon's empire, if not his army. However, as a general rule, France's fortunes during this time were strongly tied to the performance of the military, so that Napoleon was able to bring off such a successful treaty and give peace on the continent also speaks volumes on the actual strength of the army.
The only reasonable recourse one could have to saying this period was not glorious for La Grande Armee was to show its slackening performance or quality. However, Eylau having been explained, neither of these can be claimed because they fought magnificently. And the peace they acquired shows that. If they had not been so successful (or just successful in general), Napoleon would not have gotten to Tilsit. The issue here shouldn't be a swift conclusion to the war; how can that possibly be our standard for deciding the Grande Armee's greatness when the elements did not cooperate? If it was something under the army's control that lead to their "poorer" performance, then I'd be fine, but the weather shouldn't lead us to conclude that they were worse than they were in 1806. Besides weather problems, Poland had horrible roads; in fact, Poland virtually had no roads. Even shortly after the Napoleonic Era, France and Britain had something like 20,000 miles of roads each, Prussia just over 3,000, and Poland and Russia practically none (or whatever they had were in a horrible state). People are unfairly taking it out on the Grande Armee just because uncontrollable circumstances didn't go their way. Questions of invincibility and morale are ancillary questions; we can discuss them, but they don't address the meat of the topic: how good was the French army at this point. The truth is it was just as good as in 1805 and in 1806, but it didn't have the fortune of fighting in the same well-stocked, well-linked regions of Central Europe.
I'm not sure where you got your numbers on Jena-Auerstadt. First of all the entire Prussian army was about 200,000, but the numbers involved at the twin-battles were the 63,000 under the King and Brunswick, and the flank covering force under Hohnelohe, comprising 38,000. Total casualties for the Prussians were 38,000 (25,000 at Jena, 13,000 at Auerstadt), which is 38% of the force, not 70%. If you meant over the whole campaign, then you're probably still wrong, since the Prussians (going by Chandler) lost 165,000 out of 200,000, or about 83% of their forces. UberCryxic 04:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
On another note, it should be pointed out that the time, energy and intellect we are expending in this arguement, could be better spent improving and expanding the actual article itself. I regret I started those headers before I wrote the actual sections which would go under them and explain the rationale for the dates.-- R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 18:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me just begin by saying that there is no 'spinning' going on here; I am actually quite dumbfounded that we are even having this discussion (that's how fait accompli I thought it was going to be). I don't think you are spinning either; we have divergent opinions on the same campaign.
I actually think we're all saying the same thing in differing terms, but we're reaching varied conclusions. First of all, are we all in agreement that in 1807 the army did not perform as well as in the two preceding campaigns? I think we are. So the crux of your arguments appear to be that because they performed worse, perhaps in lowered standards, then this time period should not count as 'glorious.' Before we can continue, I'd like a definition of just what you are willing to consider as a 'glorious' victory, battle, or campaign, because unless this is defined, there is no point in arguing. We all know Napoleon won in 1807; the question is whether that victory counts as impressive enough to earn the title 'Crowning Glory.'
Historical consensus actually states that Napoleon's army performed marvels in 1807, considering what they were up against. This is my fundamental point too: circumstances beyond their control are being used to derogate their feats. When conditions were normal, as at Friedland, they proved they were the same army of Austerlitz. Like I've mentioned before, Friedland and Austerlitz are regarded as Napoleon's two most decisive battlefield victories, and the former showed its worth by leading to Tilsit. UberCryxic 22:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, no one gave you the authority to remove the material in the history section, and I am wholeheartedly furious right now. Our quarrels lay mainly with one year, and there is no need to delete practically the entire section. Some other contributors may also want those years and battles as reference points for visitors, so in that light your actions become all the more baffling. I feel like Napoleon at Wagram after Bernadotte's withdrawal from Aderklaa; incompetence is ruining us. I will eventually restore the section if someone else does not do it before me; please keep your tampering at a localized level.
Your derogatory characterizations of my position aside, Friedland was a brilliant victory, and if we can't even agree on this point, then our differences are beyond rescue. Friedland was a brilliant victory because it almost perfectly highlighted the strategic potential of Napoleon's system. At Friedland, the entire mechanism came together like a Romantic painting. I cannot understand what fiber in your body incites you to say Friedland was not a brilliant victory. I really want an explanation; on what account was Friedland not brilliant? I happen to think casualty ratios are very important, and time after time in military history we see the victor causing far more casualties to the defeated. This is not a rule written in stone, but it is a good indicator of the scope of victory. Furthermore, you are confusing your own standards with Cannae. Cannae was both brilliant and decisive militarily, but not politically (at least not too much; however, half of the Roman Senate did resign after the defeat). Austerlitz and Friedland are different from Cannae because they were both militarily and politically decisive, but all three battles were brilliant victories. In brilliance presumably we are looking for some sort of strategic and/or tactical superiority, and the French displayed both with skill. Ney crushed the Russian left, the artillery did the rest, and for some still-unknown reason the cavalry was not ordered forward at the end to complete the victory in a fashion that would've humbled Austerlitz.
What's weird about your refusal to recognize the greatness of Friedland is that developments there were situational; the French were caught by surprise and had to react. Contrast this with Austerlitz, where Napoleon had good intelligence all along that the Allies were falling for his trap. One would typically think that a predicament falling when unprepared is worse than one falling when prepared, so from this angle the French reaction and victory becomes all the more impressive. Why you still balk at what is nothing short of an amazing achievement truly reminds me that nothing in history is settled fact, even fact. UberCryxic 05:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I like your idea. What I'm going to do is bring up the conflicts in terms of coalitions, in the following format:
UberCryxic 15:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
There's no need to deny it, this page rocks. It's well-researched, informative, and has plenty of pictures. It's gotta become a featured article! UberCryxic 22:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, our problem with the sources are the footnotes; we only have one, and that won't do. If we can correct that, we won't even need peer review; this article is spectacular, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm a nerd. I'm going to scour Chandler's Campaigns and Elting's Swords to see what I can back up (I've wanted to do this for a while, but I've been working on something else), but I still have to remind myself that those two books are so convenient that I shouldn't use them exclusively haha.... UberCryxic 20:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
We have images of only 12 of the 26 Marshals of France under Napoleon:
Included | Omitted |
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I can understand leaving Kellermann (old), de Moncey and Jourdan (in Spain), Brune, Pérignon and Sérurier (more administrators) or Grouchy (1815 is late) off the list, but what is the rational for leaving Augereau, Mortier, Bessières, Lefebvre, Suchet, Saint-Cyr, Poniatowski off the list? Almost all have images... -- ALoan (Talk) 09:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The highest "rank" in Napoleon's army was Général de division. Maréchal de l'Empire or Marshal "was not a superior military grade but a personal title of honor to be granted distinguished generals of division, along with higher pay and privileges." Elting, John R.:"Swords Around A Throne.", page 124. Da Capo Press, 1997. There was no such rank as Général de Armee or Général de Corps. Idem. G.de Dv. could be appointed to command a corps, or even an army, but this was an operational designation, not a rank.
The original entry for Train d’artillerie was completely wrong. That organization militarized the teamsters responsible for hauling the artillery, ending the previous reliance on civilian contractors. Elting, John R.:"Swords Around A Throne.", p. 250, 254. Da Capo Press, 1997. -- Paco Palomo 23:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The image originally captioned "cornet of the voltigeurs of the line" actually depicts a cornet of the French light infantry rgts. First, and foremost, the cornet wears the distinctive blue trousers of the légère infantry. Aditionally, the soldier depicted has the "hussar" boots and distinctive pointed cuffs of the light infantry. -- Paco Palomo 05:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section on tiralleurs because it was completely wrong. The term tiralleurs did mean "skirmishers," but it was used in a generic sense, e.g., the 3rd Bn/57th Ligne was deployed en tiralleur meaning that an entire batallion was deployed as skirmishers. The term was not used to designate a unique type of unit. There WERE units that incorporated the term tiralleurs in their name, such as the Tiralleurs Corses mentioned in the section deleted, but they were actually considered to be elite units, not the misfits the deleted section implied. See Elting, John R., "Swords Around A Throne", p. 220-21. -- Paco Palomo 05:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The name Grande Armée was only given to the main operational armies of the 1805, 1806-7, 1812, 1813 and 1814 Campaigns. The forces committed to the Peninsular War were assigned to various armies, e.g., Massena's Army of Portugal in 1810. Similarly, the war against Austrian in 1809 was fought by l'Armée d'Allemagne and the Waterloo Campaign was fought by l'Armée du Nord. Chandler, David G., "Campaigns of Napoleon" (Macmillan 1966). -- Paco Palomo 06:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The name of the Marins de la Garde is commonly mis-translated as "Marines" when in fact they were "Sailors." Elting, John R., "Swords Around A Throne", p. 190. -- Paco Palomo 17:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This article has been rated on 7 criteria:
This article is long. Really long. Which is good, but: there are only 20 referrences. While that might be enough for most GAC's, in this one that means that there screen-pages pass without a single reference, sometimes several at a time. What's more, the last 4 of the references aren't references, but footnotes- bringing the total to 16. I do not think that that is enough on it's own to fail the article. However: Images. There are 46 images. I understand that they are all fair use or not held under any copyright. That is beside the point. 46 is far too many for any article. Images should be used to add to the information presented, not as decoration. If these problems are taken care of, please resubmit to GAC and message me on my talk page- as this article has sat at GAc for 2 months without review, and would likely sit there that long again, I am willing to look at it again immediately, rather than waiting for ti to reach the top of the list. -- PresN 16:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
This article should include the following informations about the allies of Napoleon:
How were troops in La Grande Armée recruited? Im making a new article call" Napoleonic French soldiers" and need alot more info. Such as pay, medicine, loyalty to France, local services, camp life, Retirement, life in the marines, etc. were any such thing in La Grande Armée as regulars? Because there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. Just elite troops and light infantry. -- Philippe Auguste 17:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
These issues continue through the article, only the final section on history being close to being properly referenced. The writing standard is generally quite good, where it avoids cliche, but without references this cannot remain a GA. References shouls also aim to give specific page numbers rather than broad sweeps of them.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 12:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I notice that SoLando has done some work on the article. I'll hold off delisting this at the moment to allow further work to be undertaken. Another seven days, with more to come if necessary.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 15:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't these be mentioned somewhere in the article?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest, well, insist actually, the Marshals be reordered in the order of being granted the rank and not alphabetically! I would like to state my extreme revulsion of seeing Bernadotte listed first, even more so ahead of Berthier, the real first Marshal of Empire!!!! It is an outrage in every sense of the word!-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I can't Find a single thing about the Imperial Navy and/or the Marines. I suggest that an Aricle be added to suit this purpose. Philippe Auguste ( talk) 01:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I do. Who here wants to help? Philippe Auguste ( talk) 03:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Is this them? Gardes de la Marine Philippe Auguste ( talk) 01:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No it isn't I'll create a Blank in the Page and fill in what I can. Philippe Auguste ( talk) 20:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most famous statistical graphic/map ever drawn is Minard's 1869 map of the devistation of the Grand Armee during the invasion of Russia. Should it appear on this page? Erniecohen ( talk) 13:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to propose that the Guard sections here be moved to and integrated with the Imperial Guard (Napoleon I) article-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
What about the supply of Grande Armée?
Breakfast: White bread, cheese, Spirits
Lunch: Soup 1 / 2 pounds Meat, vegetables, 1 / 2 Maaß wine
Vesper bread: Soup, vegetables, 1 / 2 Maaß wine
for officers in addition: Rum or coffee, either mirror eggs, poultry or fish. -- 在紅龍 ( talk) 19:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Grenadier Pied banner1804.png, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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So I've been doing my research, and have found an issue. The Grande Armée was a FIELD ARMY part of the French Imperial Army, not the name of the armed forces branch itself. For instance, a number of armies were formed as part of the Imperial Army, including: Army of the Vendée, Army of Italy, Army of Naples, Army of Spain, Army of the Rhine, and so on. In the way that the French Revolutionary Army had multiple field armies, like the Army of the Rhine, Army of the Coasts, Army of Italy, and so forth (yes names were repeated many times throughout French military history). So, my suggestion is the article be optimised so that this page is specific on the actual Field Army, while a new page is created for the actual branch. For references, I'd be happy to provide my evidence in my suggestion if needed. J-Man11 ( talk) 00:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Removed two of the more egregious pieces of overblown hyperbole. Much remains.
The Grand Armee was not a strict Meritocracy nor was Napoleon uncaring about the social origins of his officers. Napoloen wanted an officer corps of men of substance. Almost all the directly commissioned officers were from privileged backgrounds and heavily favored in terms of promotions. I can provide a long list of references from scholars who have studied the French army of this period. While the French army promoted many from the ranks, more than other armies "strict meritocracy" is overblown hyperbole. Napoloen also engaged in plenty of Nepotism promoting family and Friends. Mutrat, Jerome, Eugene weren ot promoted on strict merit rather their relationship to Napoleon.
Napoloen also did not like the Medical service, while he indulged Dr Larey to some extent, on coming to power he slashed the medical service. He halvedthe personal, denied doctors officer ranks and a caeeer structure and closed the military teaching hospitals.
Does anyone care about historical accuracy here? 121.200.4.73 ( talk) 08:35, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
It appears this youtube video is essentially copying verbatim the entire Wiki article: {{ copypaste|url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsA6jC3xwdw}}
I will say that the youtuber at least appears to have sourced the images, but has not cited Wikipedia as his source when his entire script is essentially quoting this article word for word.
TouchMeTwice (
talk) 01:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Grande Armée was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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The numbers do not add up and contradict the french wikipedia page Probably 350,000 Frenchmen is more accurate 680,000 men: • 550,000 Frenchmen • 95,000 Poles • 35,000 Austrians • 30,000 Italians[1] • 24,000 Bavarians • 20,000 Saxons • 20,000 Prussians • 17,000 Westphalians • 15,000 Swiss • 9,800 Danes and Norwegians[2][3] • 4,000 Portuguese • 3,500 Croats — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.12.25 ( talk) 05:43, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I was very happy to find this webpage. It gave a nice new light to the subject of my study, which concerned the recruitment of these soldiers. My case was the organisation of the conscription in a territorial unity (canton) of 19 East-flemish (ie Belgian) communes near Ghent.
I removed this because it is not a neutral point of view statement. *Kat* 07:12, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Grande Armée is consisted of seven corps:
Twejoel, I assume this is the OoB for the 1805 campaign. Which would be fine if that section were only about that, but it deals with organization in general. Maybe if you add a section on that campaign at the bottom of the article, this information can be readded there. I'm trying to get this article up to FEATURED status and your edits, while well meaning, are not really helping.-- R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that is almost done here, great job man, but let me know if ya need something about -- Philx 06:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)it.
Hi There,
I've just fleshed out the section on Line infantry, and will be doing the same with the Light Infantry. Adding some more detailed information, as well as fixing some inaccuracies (e.g. Tirailleurs were not a part of the Infanterie Légère(which was Carabiniers, Chasseurs and Voltigeurs), but rather seperate foreign formations [Tirailleurs Corses and Tirailleurs du Pô] or part of the Jeune Garde [the Tirailleurs-Grenadiers and Tirailleurs-Chasseurs]) Hope this helps -- ansbachdragoner 01:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't this article featured so far? Halibu tt 03:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe more info on the client state armies is necessary as well as info on the French navy of the napoleonic wars. Also Im making a article called French Soldiers. it is being made right now and help with the article would be VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!! Philippe Auguste 04:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi There,
I'm in the middle of expanding on the Guard. The Cav Needed a mention, and a little expansion of the Young / Middle Old Guard.-- ansbachdragoner 05:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
People STOP messing with this section; it is generally agreed that the glory years of the Grande Armee were from 1805 to 1807, when their victories permitted an end to bloodshed on the continent at Tilsit. Friedland was Napoleon's second most decisive victory, so calling it a "hard-won triumph" makes no sense; the Russians were thoroughly destroyed.
Eylau was a bloody draw, but presumably when we're talking about crowning glories we're covering the period, not just individual battles. For the Grande Armee, Eylau was a catharctic moment, since it was the first time they did not have a decisive victory. Nevertheless, the epic charge by French cavalry and the horrible snowstorm do elevate the battle to some sort of 'crowning glory,' semantics aside. Friedland was not a costly victory; you'd have to be joking to say that. The Russians lost 20,000, about 1/3 of their army, while the French only 8,000, a very very low fraction of their entire force in Poland (1/8 of the men that were at the battlefield). At Austerlitz, the French lost nearly 9,000 and the Allies about 25,000, yet you're not saying that was a costly victory now are you? Logically, you'd have to! But of course it makes no sense, just like calling Friedland a 'costly victory' makes no sense either.
Just as a matter of history, however, the great years of the Empire's armies do include 1807. And by "history" I mean the vast collection of literature; books by historians, military enthusiasts like you and I, and others are all most likely to include 1807 as part of the glory years. Furthermore, the army did not fight in 1804, so I don't know why you're including that year. It was formed then, but had no actual glory in that year. Please do not make any further changes here; history should not be sacrificed for your personal views. User:UberCryxic
I reverted the changes after taking a look at your propositions. I have read Chandler's authoritative work, at least twice from front to back. I think what he implies more than anything else is that Napoleon, not the army, suffered some sort of deterioration in 1807.
The actualy quality of the French army during 1807 was spectacular; they basically had the same mettle as the 1805 and 1806 armies. Eylau is an unfortunate battle from which to judge their effectiveness or greatness, and besides memorable courage, it doesn't indicate much. In fact, Chandler's account of that battle is pathetic and appalling; there's barely any real historical work done, and he just repeats the same sort of historical trash about how Murat's cavalry 'gloriously' rode against the Russian lines in fancy clothes, when undoubtedly all they could have done is a trot in three freaking feet deep snow, and they were wearing greatcoats up to the wazzooo. They would've looked more like zombies than cavalrymen. The French had a ferocious snowstorm driving into their faces, making any serious coordination and attacks virtually impossible. Like I said, this battle shouldn't be used to determine the greatness of the army at the period.
Friedland is far more indicative of their stature. Why? Because, perhaps more than any other engagement during the Napoleonic Wars, it displayed some of the most importance concepts underlying French strategy. Lannes was able to hold out and pin the Russians while French reinforcements swung the balance in the Emperor's favor; this was a classic demonstration of the power an isolated corps had to fend off larger opponents until additional troops could come and rescue the situation. And the result was brutal: 20,000 Russian casulaties at the cost of just 8,000. This battle was on the scale of Austerlitz, both militarily and politically. When wondering about whether to continue the struggle against Napoleon, Alexander's brother, Grand Duke Constantine, told him, "Sire, if you are considering fighting the French, you might as well give each man a bullet and let them shoot themselves." Friedland single-handedly lead to Tilsit, which many (and maybe most) historians at least regard as the height of Napoleon's empire, if not his army. However, as a general rule, France's fortunes during this time were strongly tied to the performance of the military, so that Napoleon was able to bring off such a successful treaty and give peace on the continent also speaks volumes on the actual strength of the army.
The only reasonable recourse one could have to saying this period was not glorious for La Grande Armee was to show its slackening performance or quality. However, Eylau having been explained, neither of these can be claimed because they fought magnificently. And the peace they acquired shows that. If they had not been so successful (or just successful in general), Napoleon would not have gotten to Tilsit. The issue here shouldn't be a swift conclusion to the war; how can that possibly be our standard for deciding the Grande Armee's greatness when the elements did not cooperate? If it was something under the army's control that lead to their "poorer" performance, then I'd be fine, but the weather shouldn't lead us to conclude that they were worse than they were in 1806. Besides weather problems, Poland had horrible roads; in fact, Poland virtually had no roads. Even shortly after the Napoleonic Era, France and Britain had something like 20,000 miles of roads each, Prussia just over 3,000, and Poland and Russia practically none (or whatever they had were in a horrible state). People are unfairly taking it out on the Grande Armee just because uncontrollable circumstances didn't go their way. Questions of invincibility and morale are ancillary questions; we can discuss them, but they don't address the meat of the topic: how good was the French army at this point. The truth is it was just as good as in 1805 and in 1806, but it didn't have the fortune of fighting in the same well-stocked, well-linked regions of Central Europe.
I'm not sure where you got your numbers on Jena-Auerstadt. First of all the entire Prussian army was about 200,000, but the numbers involved at the twin-battles were the 63,000 under the King and Brunswick, and the flank covering force under Hohnelohe, comprising 38,000. Total casualties for the Prussians were 38,000 (25,000 at Jena, 13,000 at Auerstadt), which is 38% of the force, not 70%. If you meant over the whole campaign, then you're probably still wrong, since the Prussians (going by Chandler) lost 165,000 out of 200,000, or about 83% of their forces. UberCryxic 04:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
On another note, it should be pointed out that the time, energy and intellect we are expending in this arguement, could be better spent improving and expanding the actual article itself. I regret I started those headers before I wrote the actual sections which would go under them and explain the rationale for the dates.-- R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 18:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me just begin by saying that there is no 'spinning' going on here; I am actually quite dumbfounded that we are even having this discussion (that's how fait accompli I thought it was going to be). I don't think you are spinning either; we have divergent opinions on the same campaign.
I actually think we're all saying the same thing in differing terms, but we're reaching varied conclusions. First of all, are we all in agreement that in 1807 the army did not perform as well as in the two preceding campaigns? I think we are. So the crux of your arguments appear to be that because they performed worse, perhaps in lowered standards, then this time period should not count as 'glorious.' Before we can continue, I'd like a definition of just what you are willing to consider as a 'glorious' victory, battle, or campaign, because unless this is defined, there is no point in arguing. We all know Napoleon won in 1807; the question is whether that victory counts as impressive enough to earn the title 'Crowning Glory.'
Historical consensus actually states that Napoleon's army performed marvels in 1807, considering what they were up against. This is my fundamental point too: circumstances beyond their control are being used to derogate their feats. When conditions were normal, as at Friedland, they proved they were the same army of Austerlitz. Like I've mentioned before, Friedland and Austerlitz are regarded as Napoleon's two most decisive battlefield victories, and the former showed its worth by leading to Tilsit. UberCryxic 22:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, no one gave you the authority to remove the material in the history section, and I am wholeheartedly furious right now. Our quarrels lay mainly with one year, and there is no need to delete practically the entire section. Some other contributors may also want those years and battles as reference points for visitors, so in that light your actions become all the more baffling. I feel like Napoleon at Wagram after Bernadotte's withdrawal from Aderklaa; incompetence is ruining us. I will eventually restore the section if someone else does not do it before me; please keep your tampering at a localized level.
Your derogatory characterizations of my position aside, Friedland was a brilliant victory, and if we can't even agree on this point, then our differences are beyond rescue. Friedland was a brilliant victory because it almost perfectly highlighted the strategic potential of Napoleon's system. At Friedland, the entire mechanism came together like a Romantic painting. I cannot understand what fiber in your body incites you to say Friedland was not a brilliant victory. I really want an explanation; on what account was Friedland not brilliant? I happen to think casualty ratios are very important, and time after time in military history we see the victor causing far more casualties to the defeated. This is not a rule written in stone, but it is a good indicator of the scope of victory. Furthermore, you are confusing your own standards with Cannae. Cannae was both brilliant and decisive militarily, but not politically (at least not too much; however, half of the Roman Senate did resign after the defeat). Austerlitz and Friedland are different from Cannae because they were both militarily and politically decisive, but all three battles were brilliant victories. In brilliance presumably we are looking for some sort of strategic and/or tactical superiority, and the French displayed both with skill. Ney crushed the Russian left, the artillery did the rest, and for some still-unknown reason the cavalry was not ordered forward at the end to complete the victory in a fashion that would've humbled Austerlitz.
What's weird about your refusal to recognize the greatness of Friedland is that developments there were situational; the French were caught by surprise and had to react. Contrast this with Austerlitz, where Napoleon had good intelligence all along that the Allies were falling for his trap. One would typically think that a predicament falling when unprepared is worse than one falling when prepared, so from this angle the French reaction and victory becomes all the more impressive. Why you still balk at what is nothing short of an amazing achievement truly reminds me that nothing in history is settled fact, even fact. UberCryxic 05:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I like your idea. What I'm going to do is bring up the conflicts in terms of coalitions, in the following format:
UberCryxic 15:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
There's no need to deny it, this page rocks. It's well-researched, informative, and has plenty of pictures. It's gotta become a featured article! UberCryxic 22:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, our problem with the sources are the footnotes; we only have one, and that won't do. If we can correct that, we won't even need peer review; this article is spectacular, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm a nerd. I'm going to scour Chandler's Campaigns and Elting's Swords to see what I can back up (I've wanted to do this for a while, but I've been working on something else), but I still have to remind myself that those two books are so convenient that I shouldn't use them exclusively haha.... UberCryxic 20:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
We have images of only 12 of the 26 Marshals of France under Napoleon:
Included | Omitted |
---|---|
|
|
I can understand leaving Kellermann (old), de Moncey and Jourdan (in Spain), Brune, Pérignon and Sérurier (more administrators) or Grouchy (1815 is late) off the list, but what is the rational for leaving Augereau, Mortier, Bessières, Lefebvre, Suchet, Saint-Cyr, Poniatowski off the list? Almost all have images... -- ALoan (Talk) 09:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The highest "rank" in Napoleon's army was Général de division. Maréchal de l'Empire or Marshal "was not a superior military grade but a personal title of honor to be granted distinguished generals of division, along with higher pay and privileges." Elting, John R.:"Swords Around A Throne.", page 124. Da Capo Press, 1997. There was no such rank as Général de Armee or Général de Corps. Idem. G.de Dv. could be appointed to command a corps, or even an army, but this was an operational designation, not a rank.
The original entry for Train d’artillerie was completely wrong. That organization militarized the teamsters responsible for hauling the artillery, ending the previous reliance on civilian contractors. Elting, John R.:"Swords Around A Throne.", p. 250, 254. Da Capo Press, 1997. -- Paco Palomo 23:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The image originally captioned "cornet of the voltigeurs of the line" actually depicts a cornet of the French light infantry rgts. First, and foremost, the cornet wears the distinctive blue trousers of the légère infantry. Aditionally, the soldier depicted has the "hussar" boots and distinctive pointed cuffs of the light infantry. -- Paco Palomo 05:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section on tiralleurs because it was completely wrong. The term tiralleurs did mean "skirmishers," but it was used in a generic sense, e.g., the 3rd Bn/57th Ligne was deployed en tiralleur meaning that an entire batallion was deployed as skirmishers. The term was not used to designate a unique type of unit. There WERE units that incorporated the term tiralleurs in their name, such as the Tiralleurs Corses mentioned in the section deleted, but they were actually considered to be elite units, not the misfits the deleted section implied. See Elting, John R., "Swords Around A Throne", p. 220-21. -- Paco Palomo 05:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The name Grande Armée was only given to the main operational armies of the 1805, 1806-7, 1812, 1813 and 1814 Campaigns. The forces committed to the Peninsular War were assigned to various armies, e.g., Massena's Army of Portugal in 1810. Similarly, the war against Austrian in 1809 was fought by l'Armée d'Allemagne and the Waterloo Campaign was fought by l'Armée du Nord. Chandler, David G., "Campaigns of Napoleon" (Macmillan 1966). -- Paco Palomo 06:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The name of the Marins de la Garde is commonly mis-translated as "Marines" when in fact they were "Sailors." Elting, John R., "Swords Around A Throne", p. 190. -- Paco Palomo 17:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This article has been rated on 7 criteria:
This article is long. Really long. Which is good, but: there are only 20 referrences. While that might be enough for most GAC's, in this one that means that there screen-pages pass without a single reference, sometimes several at a time. What's more, the last 4 of the references aren't references, but footnotes- bringing the total to 16. I do not think that that is enough on it's own to fail the article. However: Images. There are 46 images. I understand that they are all fair use or not held under any copyright. That is beside the point. 46 is far too many for any article. Images should be used to add to the information presented, not as decoration. If these problems are taken care of, please resubmit to GAC and message me on my talk page- as this article has sat at GAc for 2 months without review, and would likely sit there that long again, I am willing to look at it again immediately, rather than waiting for ti to reach the top of the list. -- PresN 16:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
This article should include the following informations about the allies of Napoleon:
How were troops in La Grande Armée recruited? Im making a new article call" Napoleonic French soldiers" and need alot more info. Such as pay, medicine, loyalty to France, local services, camp life, Retirement, life in the marines, etc. were any such thing in La Grande Armée as regulars? Because there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. Just elite troops and light infantry. -- Philippe Auguste 17:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
These issues continue through the article, only the final section on history being close to being properly referenced. The writing standard is generally quite good, where it avoids cliche, but without references this cannot remain a GA. References shouls also aim to give specific page numbers rather than broad sweeps of them.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 12:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I notice that SoLando has done some work on the article. I'll hold off delisting this at the moment to allow further work to be undertaken. Another seven days, with more to come if necessary.-- Jackyd101 ( talk) 15:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't these be mentioned somewhere in the article?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest, well, insist actually, the Marshals be reordered in the order of being granted the rank and not alphabetically! I would like to state my extreme revulsion of seeing Bernadotte listed first, even more so ahead of Berthier, the real first Marshal of Empire!!!! It is an outrage in every sense of the word!-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I can't Find a single thing about the Imperial Navy and/or the Marines. I suggest that an Aricle be added to suit this purpose. Philippe Auguste ( talk) 01:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I do. Who here wants to help? Philippe Auguste ( talk) 03:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Is this them? Gardes de la Marine Philippe Auguste ( talk) 01:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No it isn't I'll create a Blank in the Page and fill in what I can. Philippe Auguste ( talk) 20:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most famous statistical graphic/map ever drawn is Minard's 1869 map of the devistation of the Grand Armee during the invasion of Russia. Should it appear on this page? Erniecohen ( talk) 13:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to propose that the Guard sections here be moved to and integrated with the Imperial Guard (Napoleon I) article-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
What about the supply of Grande Armée?
Breakfast: White bread, cheese, Spirits
Lunch: Soup 1 / 2 pounds Meat, vegetables, 1 / 2 Maaß wine
Vesper bread: Soup, vegetables, 1 / 2 Maaß wine
for officers in addition: Rum or coffee, either mirror eggs, poultry or fish. -- 在紅龍 ( talk) 19:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Grenadier Pied banner1804.png, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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So I've been doing my research, and have found an issue. The Grande Armée was a FIELD ARMY part of the French Imperial Army, not the name of the armed forces branch itself. For instance, a number of armies were formed as part of the Imperial Army, including: Army of the Vendée, Army of Italy, Army of Naples, Army of Spain, Army of the Rhine, and so on. In the way that the French Revolutionary Army had multiple field armies, like the Army of the Rhine, Army of the Coasts, Army of Italy, and so forth (yes names were repeated many times throughout French military history). So, my suggestion is the article be optimised so that this page is specific on the actual Field Army, while a new page is created for the actual branch. For references, I'd be happy to provide my evidence in my suggestion if needed. J-Man11 ( talk) 00:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Removed two of the more egregious pieces of overblown hyperbole. Much remains.
The Grand Armee was not a strict Meritocracy nor was Napoleon uncaring about the social origins of his officers. Napoloen wanted an officer corps of men of substance. Almost all the directly commissioned officers were from privileged backgrounds and heavily favored in terms of promotions. I can provide a long list of references from scholars who have studied the French army of this period. While the French army promoted many from the ranks, more than other armies "strict meritocracy" is overblown hyperbole. Napoloen also engaged in plenty of Nepotism promoting family and Friends. Mutrat, Jerome, Eugene weren ot promoted on strict merit rather their relationship to Napoleon.
Napoloen also did not like the Medical service, while he indulged Dr Larey to some extent, on coming to power he slashed the medical service. He halvedthe personal, denied doctors officer ranks and a caeeer structure and closed the military teaching hospitals.
Does anyone care about historical accuracy here? 121.200.4.73 ( talk) 08:35, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
It appears this youtube video is essentially copying verbatim the entire Wiki article: {{ copypaste|url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsA6jC3xwdw}}
I will say that the youtuber at least appears to have sourced the images, but has not cited Wikipedia as his source when his entire script is essentially quoting this article word for word.
TouchMeTwice (
talk) 01:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)