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The result of the proposal was no move. Andrewa 22:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia → Vladimir Cyrillovich, Grand Duke of Russia – This form is generally more used for pretenders. Also, I'm pretty sure that Vladimir used his patronymic. If the spelling is off, another form is okay. Charles 22:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose. Per other articles on people, this article should be titled with his name:
Vladimir Kirillovich, "Grand Duke" should be in the lead sentence:
::"Vladimir Kirillovich
Romanov (Влад́имир Кир́иллович Ром́анов) (
August 30 (
N.S.),
1917 -
April 21,
1992) was a Grand Duke of Russia, Head of the Imperial Family of Russia, and Titular Emperor and
Autocrat of
all the Russias from
1938 to his death."
I also can't find any other articles that start with "Duke" followed by the name. —
Chidom
talk
15:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
::I was only searching on articles that began with "Duke". Per Wikipedia convention, I believe that all the articles you list also need to be renamed as I have set forth, along with any additional articles whose titles are named with the person's rank/title, etc. in the title.
::Your comment also brings up another reason for the renaming: it is highly unlikely that someone will enter "Grand Duke" before the person's name in the search box, given the way searches for other people work.
:::Additionally, please see
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Names, and
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Honorific prefixes:::See
Henry VIII of England and
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
::In short, honorific titles should not be included in article titles.
::Obviously, I stand by my comments above. Thanks.—
Chidom
talk
15:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it looks like we have some choices:
Vladimir Cyrillovich, Grand Duke of Russia
Vladimir Kirillovich, Grand Duke of Russia
Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich of Russia (per Wikipedia style, not an option)
Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia (per Wikipedia style, not an option)
Only about the RFA would seriously consider that a Bagration marriage should be considered morganatic. Moreson, this is an association headed by a morganatic claimant. Snapdragonfly 17:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Another editor has closed the requested move, citing the poll as lost 4 to 1.
There seems to be a vague consensus that some sort of move is needed. I suggest that we discuss specific proposals here.
IMO the basis of these discussions shouldn't be the perfect solution. We may get to that, I hope we do, but for now we need to work towards a consensus on a solution that is acceptable to everyone, or failing that to nearly everyone. This raises the prospect that there may be more than one such solution. If we get to that stage, then we start considering which is the preferred solution of the acceptable ones. And then, having reached consensus on all of this, we go back to requested moves.
It probably won't be a short process. But keep it as concise as possible is my advice. Andrewa 22:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
A few words listing the reasons you propose, support or oppose a specific name would be good, to save us dredging through the archives. But a this stage, I'd resist the temptation to justify any of these reasons. State your point don't prove it. Andrewa 00:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia. john k 04:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
( No significant history to complicate things... this is looking good. Andrewa 03:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Guy Stair Sainty owns an art gallery in New York- hardly the basis for using him as a citation or quoting him as a scholar. 12.146.101.146 23:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
What is the basis then? Anyone can call themselves a scholar. Research into his background shows no education or formal training in Russian dynastic law. 68.3.36.214 01:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The fact that McFerran does not recognize that Guy Stair Sainty's scholarship is in art and chivalry says a great deal. Sainty may have written about succession but he has not PUBLISHED anything about it. His books encompass chivalric orders as stated above. Therefore under Wikipedia's rules he does not qualify as a citation. As stated above- he has no expertise in Russian dynastic law. So, Mr. McFerran is incorrect about Mr. Sainty- at least as far as Wikipedia criteria goes. I vonH 05:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an essay on a website- not a published work. I vonH 20:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
And in the year 2007 still does not meet the criteria for citation for Wikipedia. I vonH 02:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
This section contains the phrase "The Romanov Family Association, which the claim of Maria's cousin Nicholas to be head of the House of Romanov ...". There is a verb missing from the phrase, can you spot where? I'll give you a clue, it's after the word "which". The missing verb kind of affects the entire meaning of the phrase. Could it be "disputes", for instance, or "believes", or perhaps something more original such as "regrets" or "disgorges"? 81.131.6.253 ( talk) 17:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
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In the article, there is a quote attributed to him regarding his position on Nazism, telling that he issued a statement urging Russians to overthrow Bolshevism. Just after it, the article says he was interned by the Germans due to precisely NOT issuing such a statement, therefore, I think the sentence in which he apparently seems to support Germany in their invasion of the USSR should be deleted Breizhcatalonia1993 ( talk) 21:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was no move. Andrewa 22:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia → Vladimir Cyrillovich, Grand Duke of Russia – This form is generally more used for pretenders. Also, I'm pretty sure that Vladimir used his patronymic. If the spelling is off, another form is okay. Charles 22:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose. Per other articles on people, this article should be titled with his name:
Vladimir Kirillovich, "Grand Duke" should be in the lead sentence:
::"Vladimir Kirillovich
Romanov (Влад́имир Кир́иллович Ром́анов) (
August 30 (
N.S.),
1917 -
April 21,
1992) was a Grand Duke of Russia, Head of the Imperial Family of Russia, and Titular Emperor and
Autocrat of
all the Russias from
1938 to his death."
I also can't find any other articles that start with "Duke" followed by the name. —
Chidom
talk
15:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
::I was only searching on articles that began with "Duke". Per Wikipedia convention, I believe that all the articles you list also need to be renamed as I have set forth, along with any additional articles whose titles are named with the person's rank/title, etc. in the title.
::Your comment also brings up another reason for the renaming: it is highly unlikely that someone will enter "Grand Duke" before the person's name in the search box, given the way searches for other people work.
:::Additionally, please see
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Names, and
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Honorific prefixes:::See
Henry VIII of England and
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
::In short, honorific titles should not be included in article titles.
::Obviously, I stand by my comments above. Thanks.—
Chidom
talk
15:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it looks like we have some choices:
Vladimir Cyrillovich, Grand Duke of Russia
Vladimir Kirillovich, Grand Duke of Russia
Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich of Russia (per Wikipedia style, not an option)
Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia (per Wikipedia style, not an option)
Only about the RFA would seriously consider that a Bagration marriage should be considered morganatic. Moreson, this is an association headed by a morganatic claimant. Snapdragonfly 17:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Another editor has closed the requested move, citing the poll as lost 4 to 1.
There seems to be a vague consensus that some sort of move is needed. I suggest that we discuss specific proposals here.
IMO the basis of these discussions shouldn't be the perfect solution. We may get to that, I hope we do, but for now we need to work towards a consensus on a solution that is acceptable to everyone, or failing that to nearly everyone. This raises the prospect that there may be more than one such solution. If we get to that stage, then we start considering which is the preferred solution of the acceptable ones. And then, having reached consensus on all of this, we go back to requested moves.
It probably won't be a short process. But keep it as concise as possible is my advice. Andrewa 22:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
A few words listing the reasons you propose, support or oppose a specific name would be good, to save us dredging through the archives. But a this stage, I'd resist the temptation to justify any of these reasons. State your point don't prove it. Andrewa 00:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia. john k 04:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
( No significant history to complicate things... this is looking good. Andrewa 03:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Guy Stair Sainty owns an art gallery in New York- hardly the basis for using him as a citation or quoting him as a scholar. 12.146.101.146 23:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
What is the basis then? Anyone can call themselves a scholar. Research into his background shows no education or formal training in Russian dynastic law. 68.3.36.214 01:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The fact that McFerran does not recognize that Guy Stair Sainty's scholarship is in art and chivalry says a great deal. Sainty may have written about succession but he has not PUBLISHED anything about it. His books encompass chivalric orders as stated above. Therefore under Wikipedia's rules he does not qualify as a citation. As stated above- he has no expertise in Russian dynastic law. So, Mr. McFerran is incorrect about Mr. Sainty- at least as far as Wikipedia criteria goes. I vonH 05:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an essay on a website- not a published work. I vonH 20:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
And in the year 2007 still does not meet the criteria for citation for Wikipedia. I vonH 02:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
This section contains the phrase "The Romanov Family Association, which the claim of Maria's cousin Nicholas to be head of the House of Romanov ...". There is a verb missing from the phrase, can you spot where? I'll give you a clue, it's after the word "which". The missing verb kind of affects the entire meaning of the phrase. Could it be "disputes", for instance, or "believes", or perhaps something more original such as "regrets" or "disgorges"? 81.131.6.253 ( talk) 17:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:22, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:07, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
In the article, there is a quote attributed to him regarding his position on Nazism, telling that he issued a statement urging Russians to overthrow Bolshevism. Just after it, the article says he was interned by the Germans due to precisely NOT issuing such a statement, therefore, I think the sentence in which he apparently seems to support Germany in their invasion of the USSR should be deleted Breizhcatalonia1993 ( talk) 21:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)