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What was the exact way of it? Not to attack forces of Moscow before they are defeated by Mamai? A typical ally behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.26.74 ( talk) 08:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
http://www.iesw.lublin.pl/projekty/pliki/IESW-121-02-07.pdf Xx236 ( talk) 06:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
The link provided in the infobox with regards to paganism is to Lithuanian mythology, with an opening setence stating it is specifically a branch of Baltic mythology: "Lithuanian mythology is a type of Baltic mythology, developed by Lithuanians throughout the centuries."
Baltic mythology/paganism is what was practiced, as the Poles, Ruthenians (Ukranians/Belarusians), Germans and Rus of Novgorod were all Christianized. The Estonians were still pagan, but they worshipped non-Indo-European Finnic paganism, and were not part of the Grand Duchy in any case. 174.119.80.219 ( talk) 02:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I think, that GDL is Lithuanian - Belarusian state, but there are some people, that think it was only Lithuanian state. What do YOU think? Signevian DS ( talk) 06:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Signevian DS: Easy question. Let's read some articles from Encyclopedia Britannica (the most reliable encyclopedia in the world). The early statehood of Lithuania was created by Lithuanians (same as the modern state), who expanded their territory into the Ruthenian territories and ruled them. According to Encyclopedia Britannica: "Lithuanians are an Indo-European people belonging to the Baltic group. They are the only branch within the group that managed to create a state entity in premodern times".( ref1) While Belarus according to Encyclopedia Britannica is: "While Belarusians share a distinct ethnic identity and language, they never previously enjoyed unity and political sovereignty, except during a brief period in 1918".( ref2). Also: "The Slavic peoples of what is now Belarus were in the past ruled by Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, and Russia. Consequently no distinctive national symbols were developed until the 20th century, when for the first time Belarus became independent".( ref3). By the way:
Before that the Lithuanians used Lithuanian and Latin languages (e.g. Letters of Gediminas). The Ruthenian language was used so that the Ruthenians would also understand the texts of the state. The fact that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania never was an Orthodox state perfectly illustrate that the Ruthenians never gained the highest power in this state. -- Pofka ( talk) 19:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
You use only sources from the Encyclopædia Britannica. Moreover, articles about the modern Lithuanian state and Belarus appeared after the collapse of the USSR. Susjaj ( talk) 10:11, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Pofka, could you provide a reliable source showing that a flag existed that looked the same this image, not a coat of arms? Coats of arms are not the same as flags throughout history, they are separate things and if this was historically never a flag then this user created graphic is a work of fiction. -- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 17:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
This discussion is just a revenge because I nominated for deletion three illustrations at Wikimedia Commons which were inaccurate or with fake colors (see these nominations: 1, 2, 3). The only accurate, legitimate flags and coat of arms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania are those which include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (with blue background) or the Columns of Gediminas as these are the symbols of the rulers of the state. Seeing that this flag include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (in blue background), it is historically accurate:
In the article it is clearly written that it is: "Supposed appearance of the royal (military) banner with design derived from a 16th century coat of arms" based on an authentic illustration with authentic coloring. If you have an image of a flag with authentic coloring, based on Lithuanian sources, then go on and upload it, but your fake illustrations, based on non- Lithuanian sources, will certainly not be accepted here. It was rejected before already ( 1, 2). Knowing that user Лобачев Владимир systematically attack the Lithuanian identity (and other countries identity), based on Russian/Belarusian sources, and spread his hatred for other countries and nations (e.g. 1, 2, 3), I will not reply to his propaganda because he does not seek for the WP:NPOV and simply want to consolidate his WP:OP on a daily basis in Wikipedia. For his disruptive editing in Wikipedia, he is under the discretionary sanctions ( warning by an admin in his talk page). He performed similar attack in article Moldavia (see two discussions initiated by him there; all his arguments were proved to be a propaganda and were rejected by other editors). Ping relevant users who might be interested in this: @ Piotrus:, @ Sabbatino:, @ Itzhak Rosenberg: as I believe this question was discussed before already. -- Pofka ( talk) 18:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
By the way, user Лобачев Владимир perform identical attack at the Italian Wikipedia ( 1, 2; rejected by an Italian editor: 3) and French Wikipedia ( 1, 2, 3) articles about the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as well. -- Pofka ( talk) 19:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi!
I wanted to expand this section later, but it looks like all my edits were removed. Sources I had added so far include both fact of name use and confirmation on how to write them. In case editors don't mind I can for now transfer Russian and Ukrainian-backed sources from corresponding language Wiki's to confirm name use and it's official declaration in Statutes of Lithuania until we find English ones. I don't see any rule against that in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding "removing this source because it makes dubious claims - it mentions a "Western Russian Lithuania" in the preceding sentence":
That is correct. Due to the fact that official language, most of it's population, cultural influence were Ruthenian and it's competition with Moscow to reunite all Ruthenian lands, many historians and sources view and name it as Lithuanian-Russian (Ruthenian) or Western Russian (Ruthenian) state ( 1, 2, 3).
Korwinski ( talk) 20:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]
— source
it's proper title was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia
— source
It was also included in the full name of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia)
— source
The proper title of Lithuania was in fact the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia and its rulers styled themselves Lethewindorum et Ruthenorum rex ('King of the Lithuanians and Ruthenians').
— source
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia (the full official name of the state, further the GDL)
— source
the official name of which was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia.
— source
This quote you provided from a Statute of Lithuania:
Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]
— source
Illustrates exactly the same thing: these are ROYAL TITLES, NOT NAME OF A COUNTRY. So if you want to describe TITLES held by the Grand Duke of Lithuania at the time (like with Gediminas's case) - I have no arguments against that, however original research about STATE NAME will not be accepted. Some modern authors messed up by mixing these two things into one and that's completely false as there is a difference between a RULER (Grand Duke) and a STATE (Grand Duchy). According to your edits, this state should be called Grand Duchy of Lithuania-Ruthenia-Prussia-Samogitia-Mazovia (and more). Why you include Ruthenia and Samogitia, but exclude Prussia and Mazovia in the name you propose? As I already said before, the Polish–Lithuanian–Ruthenian Commonwealth was only proposed, but never actually existed, so do not attempt to rewrite history with original research. -- Pofka ( talk) 15:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The "other lands" mentioned in the heading of the statute as well as in the introduction to the section one are those territories and independent prinicpalities which, joined to the Grand Principality of Lithuania in its narrow sense (the lands of Vilna and Troki), comprised the political federation of the Grand Principality of Lithunia. [...] Politically, the state comprised three parts: "Lithuania" i.e. Vilna and Troki, "Samogitia" and "Rus'".
— source
The full name of the state is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia.
Source: Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Encyclopedia in two volumes. Volume 1. - Minsk, 2007 - Page 5. -- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 11:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Ruth. Великое князство Литовское, Руское, Жомойтское и иныхъ
Source 1:
Mykhailo Hrushevsky
Miscellanea. Примітки до тексту Галицько-Волинської рукописї, с. 7, pdf p. 45 // Записки Наукового товариства імені Шевченка, том VIII, 1895, кн. 4. Львів, 1895.
Source 2:
Marian Gumowski. Pieczęcie książąt litewskich // Ateneum Wileńskie[pl]. Wilno, 1930. Rok VII. — Zeszyt 3–4. — s. 725 --
Лобачев Владимир (
talk) 11:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Sources with quotes.
The ancient Belarusian-Lithuanian state, the full name of which was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia. — Source: Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Encyclopedia in two volumes. Volume 1. - Minsk, 2007 - Page 5
Ruth. Великое князство Литовское, Руское, Жомойтское и иныхъ (Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other) — Source 1: Mykhailo Hrushevsky Miscellanea. Примітки до тексту Галицько-Волинської рукописї, с. 7, pdf p. 45 // Записки Наукового товариства імені Шевченка, том VIII, 1895, кн. 4. Львів, 1895. Source 2: Marian Gumowski. Pieczęcie książąt litewskich // Ateneum Wileńskie[pl]. Wilno, 1930. Rok VII. — Zeszyt 3–4. — s. 725
6.1.1 Cornerstones of Historical Developments.
The first noteworthy period of Belarusian history was in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries – a period that relates to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. This is also known as the Golden Age of Lithuanian and Old Belarusian culture. The Old Belarusian dialect not only served as the official language of the state, it was also the language of culture and education. Trade relations with the West brought the Lithuanian-Belarusian Grand Duchy into closer contact with the European humanist tradition of education. Following the division of the Polish-Lithuanian-Belarusian Republic in 1772–1795, the territory of Belarus fell under the power of the Russian Empire for the next 150 years. During this time, both the Belarusian language and culture (as was the case with Polish and Lithuanian) were prohibited. — Source: The Education Systems of Europe, p. 78
In the GDL at the end of the fourteenth century, only one out of nine people was of Lithuanian origin (O'Connor, 2003), i.e., almost all the rest were Ruthenians. At that time the word 'Russian' meant Ruthenian. But, the official language of the GDL was Old Belarusian. Starting from the early fourteenth century, the full name of GDL was The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia, the last a region in northwestern Lithuania. — Source: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1970&context=ccr Evidence for Belarusian-Ukrainian Eastern Slavic Civilization]
The name of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia (the full official name) appears in three variants in its most popular abbreviated form - the GDL (known in contemporary Latin, Polish and Ruthenian sources as MDL, W.X.L or ВКЛ) — Source: In the Shadows of Poland and Russia: The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the Mid-17th Century, Stockholm University, 2006, p. 4.
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 17:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was not founded by Lithuanians but was founded by modern Belarusians. The proof is the language of all the documents existed in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - those important state documents were in old Belarusian language. Please, consider correcting the information. 2604:CB00:2706:A900:B5FE:3DB1:6D14:3DF4 ( talk) 01:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
[1] Александр Макович ( talk) 03:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
This Wikipedia pages is written by modern Lithuanian nationalists, until in the future the democratic Belarusian state officially takes up solving these problems, the information will continue to be falsified. Susjaj ( talk) 10:14, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
References
I think this article's images might need some cleanup as they might be excessive/crufty. What images should we keep, and what should we remove? -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 14:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Here are additional explanation and sourcing about the 1580 Lithuanian ceremony of Grand Duke Stephen Báthory. During the inauguration/elevation ceremony of the Grand Duke Stephen Báthory (29 May 1580) a blessed sword and hat (both were sanctified by Pope Gregory XIII himself) was used in the Vilnius Cathedral and the ceremony likely did not feature the usual Gediminas' Cap at all (it certainly wasn't placed on Báthory's head). Nevertheless, multiple WP:RS describe the ceremony of 29 May 1580 as elevation/enthronement ceremony of the new Grand Duke of Lithuania (Stephen Báthory) and this clearly was an ignoration of the stipulations of the Union of Lublin. Supporting sources:
1. "Iš pradžių, regis, buvo mėginama didžiajam kunigaikščiui rengti atskirą ceremoniją. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. Vilniaus katedroje įvykęs popiežiaus kalavijo ir karūnos perdavimo aktas amžininkų akimis ir buvo Stepono Batoro, kaip didžiojo kunigaikščio, intronizavimas" (English: At first, it seems, there was an attempt to hold a separate ceremony for the Grand Duke. In the eyes of contemporaries, the act of handing over the papal sword and crown that took place in the Vilnius Cathedral on 1580 May 29 was the enthronement of Stephen Báthory as the Grand Duke). Source: publication by Lithuanian Institute of History, p. 9.
2. Maciej Stryjkowski's Kronika polska, litewska, żmódzka i wszystkiéj Rusi Macieja Stryjkowskiego. T. 2. Warsaw, 1846, p. 432. This source is provided as a backing source in the publication by Lithuanian Institute of History (mentioned above).
3. "Vienas iš tokių, Lietuvos valstybingumą tvirtinančių valdovo gestų buvo jo pakėlimo į Lietuvos sostą ceremonija. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. valdovas priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių iš žemaičių vyskupo Merkelio Giedraičio rankų priėmė popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII atsiųstą kalaviją ir Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio kepurę kartu su apaštališkuoju palaiminimu. Toks ritualas turėjo sąsajų su ankstesnių valdovų pakėlimo į Lietuvos dk sostą ceremonialu, nors sudarius Liublino sąjungą, jis neturėjo būti praktikuojamas." (English: One of such gestures of the ruler confirming Lithuania's statehood was the ceremony of his elevation to the throne of Lithuania. On 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the ruler accepted the sword sent by Pope Gregory XIII and the hat of the Grand Duke of Lithuania together with the apostolic blessing from the hands of the Samogitian Bishop Merkelis Giedraitis. Such a ritual had connections with the ceremonial elevation of previous rulers to the throne of Lithuania, although it was not supposed to be practiced after the union of Lublin). Source: publication by Vilnius University, p. 67 (title page claims that there also is a translation to the Hungarian language by BEATRIX TÖLGYESI).
4. "Vienas įdomiausių su Lietuva susijusių Naujosios Karalystės iždinės eksponatų – iš pirmo žvilgsnio neišvaizdi kalavijo geležtė. Iš tikrųjų – tai 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių Lenkijos ir Lietuvos valdovui Steponui Batorui (1576–1586) įteiktas popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII pašventintas kalavijas, per amžius praradęs savo puošnią rankeną. Kalaviją ir perlais puoštą popiežiaus pašventintą kepurę valdovui įteikė žemaičių vyskupas Merkelis Giedraitis. Lietuvoje ši ceremonija traktuota kaip Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio pakėlimo iškilmės, kurias rengiant buvo ignoruojama Liublino unija ir manifestuojamas Lietuvos savarankiškumas." (English: One of the most interesting exhibits of the treasury of the New Kingdom related to Lithuania is an unsightly sword blade at first glance. In fact, on 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the sword consecrated by Pope Gregory XIII was presented to the ruler of Poland and Lithuania, Stephen Báthory (1576-1586), having lost its ornate handle over the centuries. Merkelis Giedraitis, bishop of Samogitia, presented the ruler with a sword and a hat decorated with pearls consecrated by the Pope. In Lithuania, this ceremony was treated as the celebration of the elevation of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which the Union of Lublin was ignored and Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested). Source: article published by the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania.
5. Identical paragraph like in the 4th point (above) was (likely) later republished by the official website of the Lithuanian National Radio and Television ( HERE) and a very popular Lithuanian news website 15min.lt ( HERE).
By the way, the 1569 Union of Lublin was not accepted in the first try because of the Lithuanian nobles strong objection to it and its conditions. However, the Principality of Moscow was waging a successful war against the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (which lost important territories like Polotsk) and the Kingdom of Poland was not much willing to help the Lithuanians until a chunk of territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was transferred to the Kingdom of Poland and eventually they accepted the Union of Lublin. This led to successful reconquests by joint Polish-Lithuanian military forces (e.g. Polotsk, etc.). Moreover, this ceremony of Stephen Báthory is not the first example when the Lithuanian nobles violated previous agreements with the Poles (e.g. Casimir IV Jagiellon was separately proclaimed the Grand Duke of Lithuania by the Lithuanians and a ceremony inaugurating him as the Grand Duke of Lithuania was held in 1440, this way violating the Union of Grodno (1432) and terminating the Polish–Lithuanian union ( first source, second source, p. 8). -- Pofka ( talk) 20:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
undeniably reliable English-language sources, which ones? Marcelus ( talk) 20:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Moreover, this 1580 ceremony is also described by non-Lithuanian authors (quoted above): Almut Bues ( German scientist; publication by Lithuanian Institute of History, p. 9) and Noémi Erzsébet Bulla (Hungarian scientist; publication by Vilnius University, p. 67). By the way, both quotes by Almut Bues and Noémi Erzsébet Bulla are in publications which currently are hosted in the official websites of the Vilnius University and Lithuanian Institute of History, so there also are no grounds to treat them as non-WP:RS.Cukrakalnis ( talk) 22:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis, @ Piotrus; I have a proposal that I think is a reasonable compromise. It can be found here: User:Marcelus/sandbox#Blessed_sword_-_proposed_changes. I added a little more context for the Grodno convention, it did not take place before the election (which was in 1575), but a few days before Batory's coronation. As for the 1580 ceremony, I think it's important to add that Batory was given a blessed sword and hat for his battles against the infidels. On the other hand, it should also be added that this ceremony was interpreted in Lithuania as an elevation of the Grand Duke. The sentence: In Lithuania, this ceremony was treated as the celebration of the elevation of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested, is very close to what is written on the Vilnius Palace website. Moreover, it is important to emphasize that Batory did not officially become the ruler of Lithuania until 1580, since he was already recognized by the Lithuanian delegation on May 5, 1576. This is important so as not to give the reader such an erroneous impression. I think this is a good proposition, but I am open to suggestions. Marcelus ( talk) 21:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC) [sidenote: I just realised Pofka has one way iban with me, I totally forgot about that, sorry for adressing them directly, I will try now to limit my participation in this discussion to minimum] Marcelus ( talk) 23:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis: Thanks for your opinion. By the way, it is important to note here that the 1580 ceremony had three important aspects for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 1) Stephen Báthory was elevated/enthroned as the Grand Duke of Lithuania; 2) a separate ceremony manifested Lithuania's sovereignty; 3) a separate ceremony was held by ignoring/violating the Union of Lublin (because it stipulated that a joint Polish-Lithuanian monarch will be elected in the Election sejm and crowned at the same time). A separate ceremony of 1580 clearly was the will of Lithuanian nobles to ignore the Union of Lublin because they demanded a separate ceremony before the Union and then organized it with Báthory. All these three aspects are clearly stressed in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania ( quoted above), so until solid arguments are provided (Piotrus?) why the official website of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania is not a WP:RS and where it is stipulated in Wikipedia (e.g. it is not included to Wikipedia:Deprecated sources) – no information in it is dubious and there absolutely are no violations of the WP:OR rule in this article describing the 1580 ceremony. The ignoration of the Union of Lublin is clearly expressed in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania: "... rengiant buvo ignoruojama Liublino unija ir manifestuojamas Lietuvos savarankiškumas" (English: "... during which the Union of Lublin was ignored and Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested"). So all these three aspects are important and the sentence "On 29 May 1580, a ceremony was held in the Vilnius Cathedral during which bishop Merkelis Giedraitis presented Stephen Báthory (King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania since 1 May 1576) a luxuriously decorated sword and a hat adorned with pearls (both were sanctified by Pope Gregory XIII himself), while this ceremony manifested the sovereignty of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and had the meaning of elevation of the new Grand Duke of Lithuania, this way ignoring the stipulations of the Union of Lublin" is just a condensed variant of facts provided in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania. Cukrakalnis, do you have a different opinion about any of these three points? -- Pofka ( talk) 11:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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Grand Duchy of Lithuania was founded Roman's that come on ships from city Aquillea that written in Cronicle of Bychovec https://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Bychovec/frametext.htm Александр Макович ( talk) 17:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Cronicale of Byhovec tell us ,that Grand Duchy Lithuania was founded by Roman empire nobel Apollo "Dovspunk Kitovras""a prince named Apollo , who also climbed into that place with And there were with him five hundred people of Roman nobles , and between them on the island were four families of Roman nobles: from the coat of arms Kitovras Dovsprunk, from the coat of arms Kolumnov Prespor Caesarin, and from the coat of arms Urseinov Julian, and from the coat of arms Rosa Torogo. And went by sea between the earth , and took with him one astronomer, which astronomer understood by the stars, and went on ships by sea to the north, and bypassed France and England, and entered the up the river Neman, up to the sea called Little 10, which is called the Neman Sea, and for that reason that sea is called the Neman Sea, because the Neman flows into that sea by twelve mouths, and each [of them] is called by a special name, and of those twelve mouths one mouth was called by the name of Gilia. And they went up that estuary and reached the whole Neman, where it was already flowing in one channel. And, going up the Neman, they reached the river Dubissa 11, and, entering that river Dubissa, they found above it high mountains /2/ and on those mountains large plains and luxurious oak forests, abounding in all kinds of animals, that is, first of all, aurochs, bison, elks, deer, chamois, lynxes, martens, foxes, squirrels, ermine and other various species, and here in the rivers a mass of unusual fish. And these were only such fish as were found in those rivers, but there were also a lot of different amazing fish from the sea, because the mouth of the Neman was not far away, where the Neman flows into the sea. Above these rivers, above the Dubissa and above the Neman and above the Jura, they settled there and began to increase ther population. at the time [36] when Kernus dominated in the Zavilean side, those people settled behind Vilija and played on oak pipes 28, and called that Kernus the coast in his Italian language in Latin, Litus, where people multiply, and the pipes on which they played - tuba, and called those people in his own way, in Latin, connecting the coast with the pipe - Listubanya . And simple people did not know how to speak Latin and began to be called simply Lithuania, and from that time the state began to be called Lithuanian and to increase from the side of Zhemaitia. And then prince great Kernus and Gimbut, wishing to expand the fatherland, have collected forces the Lithuanian and Zhemaitian and have gone on Russia to Braslav and to Polotsk, and much harm to Russian have made and their land have ruined, and set of people have taken away in captivity. ORIGIN: https://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Bychovec/frametext.htm Александр Макович ( talk) 17:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Why are you mentioning "Ruthenian" instead of Belarusian language? There were no any other language of Ruthenian group more popular than Belarusian (it had a dominant majority across all Duchy's territory). So German, Tatar and Karaim worth separate mentioning but no the Belarusian, what? 79.191.134.189 ( talk) 18:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
In The Vladimir Putin Interview, Putin claimed that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was called "…the Lithuanian-Russian Duchy, because Russians were a significant part of its population." [1]. I have been totally unable to find any reference to anything called “Lithuanian-Russian Duchy” anywhere. Can anyone else help me with this? If this is an outright lie, can anyone help me find historians saying as much? Victor Grigas ( talk) 16:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
References
My apology, but in this article you provide historically incorrect data not saying that the Grand Duchy first capital was Novogrudok and it was founded in Belarussian territories, confusing readers. Please consider correcting your article and rewriting it according to the Historical evidence, all Lithuanian and Belarusian citizens know, thanks 188.77.31.128 ( talk) 06:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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What was the exact way of it? Not to attack forces of Moscow before they are defeated by Mamai? A typical ally behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.26.74 ( talk) 08:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
http://www.iesw.lublin.pl/projekty/pliki/IESW-121-02-07.pdf Xx236 ( talk) 06:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
The link provided in the infobox with regards to paganism is to Lithuanian mythology, with an opening setence stating it is specifically a branch of Baltic mythology: "Lithuanian mythology is a type of Baltic mythology, developed by Lithuanians throughout the centuries."
Baltic mythology/paganism is what was practiced, as the Poles, Ruthenians (Ukranians/Belarusians), Germans and Rus of Novgorod were all Christianized. The Estonians were still pagan, but they worshipped non-Indo-European Finnic paganism, and were not part of the Grand Duchy in any case. 174.119.80.219 ( talk) 02:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I think, that GDL is Lithuanian - Belarusian state, but there are some people, that think it was only Lithuanian state. What do YOU think? Signevian DS ( talk) 06:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Signevian DS: Easy question. Let's read some articles from Encyclopedia Britannica (the most reliable encyclopedia in the world). The early statehood of Lithuania was created by Lithuanians (same as the modern state), who expanded their territory into the Ruthenian territories and ruled them. According to Encyclopedia Britannica: "Lithuanians are an Indo-European people belonging to the Baltic group. They are the only branch within the group that managed to create a state entity in premodern times".( ref1) While Belarus according to Encyclopedia Britannica is: "While Belarusians share a distinct ethnic identity and language, they never previously enjoyed unity and political sovereignty, except during a brief period in 1918".( ref2). Also: "The Slavic peoples of what is now Belarus were in the past ruled by Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, and Russia. Consequently no distinctive national symbols were developed until the 20th century, when for the first time Belarus became independent".( ref3). By the way:
Before that the Lithuanians used Lithuanian and Latin languages (e.g. Letters of Gediminas). The Ruthenian language was used so that the Ruthenians would also understand the texts of the state. The fact that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania never was an Orthodox state perfectly illustrate that the Ruthenians never gained the highest power in this state. -- Pofka ( talk) 19:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
You use only sources from the Encyclopædia Britannica. Moreover, articles about the modern Lithuanian state and Belarus appeared after the collapse of the USSR. Susjaj ( talk) 10:11, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Pofka, could you provide a reliable source showing that a flag existed that looked the same this image, not a coat of arms? Coats of arms are not the same as flags throughout history, they are separate things and if this was historically never a flag then this user created graphic is a work of fiction. -- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 17:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
This discussion is just a revenge because I nominated for deletion three illustrations at Wikimedia Commons which were inaccurate or with fake colors (see these nominations: 1, 2, 3). The only accurate, legitimate flags and coat of arms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania are those which include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (with blue background) or the Columns of Gediminas as these are the symbols of the rulers of the state. Seeing that this flag include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (in blue background), it is historically accurate:
In the article it is clearly written that it is: "Supposed appearance of the royal (military) banner with design derived from a 16th century coat of arms" based on an authentic illustration with authentic coloring. If you have an image of a flag with authentic coloring, based on Lithuanian sources, then go on and upload it, but your fake illustrations, based on non- Lithuanian sources, will certainly not be accepted here. It was rejected before already ( 1, 2). Knowing that user Лобачев Владимир systematically attack the Lithuanian identity (and other countries identity), based on Russian/Belarusian sources, and spread his hatred for other countries and nations (e.g. 1, 2, 3), I will not reply to his propaganda because he does not seek for the WP:NPOV and simply want to consolidate his WP:OP on a daily basis in Wikipedia. For his disruptive editing in Wikipedia, he is under the discretionary sanctions ( warning by an admin in his talk page). He performed similar attack in article Moldavia (see two discussions initiated by him there; all his arguments were proved to be a propaganda and were rejected by other editors). Ping relevant users who might be interested in this: @ Piotrus:, @ Sabbatino:, @ Itzhak Rosenberg: as I believe this question was discussed before already. -- Pofka ( talk) 18:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
By the way, user Лобачев Владимир perform identical attack at the Italian Wikipedia ( 1, 2; rejected by an Italian editor: 3) and French Wikipedia ( 1, 2, 3) articles about the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as well. -- Pofka ( talk) 19:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi!
I wanted to expand this section later, but it looks like all my edits were removed. Sources I had added so far include both fact of name use and confirmation on how to write them. In case editors don't mind I can for now transfer Russian and Ukrainian-backed sources from corresponding language Wiki's to confirm name use and it's official declaration in Statutes of Lithuania until we find English ones. I don't see any rule against that in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding "removing this source because it makes dubious claims - it mentions a "Western Russian Lithuania" in the preceding sentence":
That is correct. Due to the fact that official language, most of it's population, cultural influence were Ruthenian and it's competition with Moscow to reunite all Ruthenian lands, many historians and sources view and name it as Lithuanian-Russian (Ruthenian) or Western Russian (Ruthenian) state ( 1, 2, 3).
Korwinski ( talk) 20:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]
— source
it's proper title was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia
— source
It was also included in the full name of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia)
— source
The proper title of Lithuania was in fact the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia and its rulers styled themselves Lethewindorum et Ruthenorum rex ('King of the Lithuanians and Ruthenians').
— source
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia (the full official name of the state, further the GDL)
— source
the official name of which was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia.
— source
This quote you provided from a Statute of Lithuania:
Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]
— source
Illustrates exactly the same thing: these are ROYAL TITLES, NOT NAME OF A COUNTRY. So if you want to describe TITLES held by the Grand Duke of Lithuania at the time (like with Gediminas's case) - I have no arguments against that, however original research about STATE NAME will not be accepted. Some modern authors messed up by mixing these two things into one and that's completely false as there is a difference between a RULER (Grand Duke) and a STATE (Grand Duchy). According to your edits, this state should be called Grand Duchy of Lithuania-Ruthenia-Prussia-Samogitia-Mazovia (and more). Why you include Ruthenia and Samogitia, but exclude Prussia and Mazovia in the name you propose? As I already said before, the Polish–Lithuanian–Ruthenian Commonwealth was only proposed, but never actually existed, so do not attempt to rewrite history with original research. -- Pofka ( talk) 15:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The "other lands" mentioned in the heading of the statute as well as in the introduction to the section one are those territories and independent prinicpalities which, joined to the Grand Principality of Lithuania in its narrow sense (the lands of Vilna and Troki), comprised the political federation of the Grand Principality of Lithunia. [...] Politically, the state comprised three parts: "Lithuania" i.e. Vilna and Troki, "Samogitia" and "Rus'".
— source
The full name of the state is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia.
Source: Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Encyclopedia in two volumes. Volume 1. - Minsk, 2007 - Page 5. -- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 11:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Ruth. Великое князство Литовское, Руское, Жомойтское и иныхъ
Source 1:
Mykhailo Hrushevsky
Miscellanea. Примітки до тексту Галицько-Волинської рукописї, с. 7, pdf p. 45 // Записки Наукового товариства імені Шевченка, том VIII, 1895, кн. 4. Львів, 1895.
Source 2:
Marian Gumowski. Pieczęcie książąt litewskich // Ateneum Wileńskie[pl]. Wilno, 1930. Rok VII. — Zeszyt 3–4. — s. 725 --
Лобачев Владимир (
talk) 11:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Sources with quotes.
The ancient Belarusian-Lithuanian state, the full name of which was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia. — Source: Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Encyclopedia in two volumes. Volume 1. - Minsk, 2007 - Page 5
Ruth. Великое князство Литовское, Руское, Жомойтское и иныхъ (Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other) — Source 1: Mykhailo Hrushevsky Miscellanea. Примітки до тексту Галицько-Волинської рукописї, с. 7, pdf p. 45 // Записки Наукового товариства імені Шевченка, том VIII, 1895, кн. 4. Львів, 1895. Source 2: Marian Gumowski. Pieczęcie książąt litewskich // Ateneum Wileńskie[pl]. Wilno, 1930. Rok VII. — Zeszyt 3–4. — s. 725
6.1.1 Cornerstones of Historical Developments.
The first noteworthy period of Belarusian history was in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries – a period that relates to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. This is also known as the Golden Age of Lithuanian and Old Belarusian culture. The Old Belarusian dialect not only served as the official language of the state, it was also the language of culture and education. Trade relations with the West brought the Lithuanian-Belarusian Grand Duchy into closer contact with the European humanist tradition of education. Following the division of the Polish-Lithuanian-Belarusian Republic in 1772–1795, the territory of Belarus fell under the power of the Russian Empire for the next 150 years. During this time, both the Belarusian language and culture (as was the case with Polish and Lithuanian) were prohibited. — Source: The Education Systems of Europe, p. 78
In the GDL at the end of the fourteenth century, only one out of nine people was of Lithuanian origin (O'Connor, 2003), i.e., almost all the rest were Ruthenians. At that time the word 'Russian' meant Ruthenian. But, the official language of the GDL was Old Belarusian. Starting from the early fourteenth century, the full name of GDL was The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia, the last a region in northwestern Lithuania. — Source: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1970&context=ccr Evidence for Belarusian-Ukrainian Eastern Slavic Civilization]
The name of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia (the full official name) appears in three variants in its most popular abbreviated form - the GDL (known in contemporary Latin, Polish and Ruthenian sources as MDL, W.X.L or ВКЛ) — Source: In the Shadows of Poland and Russia: The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden in the European Crisis of the Mid-17th Century, Stockholm University, 2006, p. 4.
-- Лобачев Владимир ( talk) 17:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was not founded by Lithuanians but was founded by modern Belarusians. The proof is the language of all the documents existed in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - those important state documents were in old Belarusian language. Please, consider correcting the information. 2604:CB00:2706:A900:B5FE:3DB1:6D14:3DF4 ( talk) 01:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
[1] Александр Макович ( talk) 03:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
This Wikipedia pages is written by modern Lithuanian nationalists, until in the future the democratic Belarusian state officially takes up solving these problems, the information will continue to be falsified. Susjaj ( talk) 10:14, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
References
I think this article's images might need some cleanup as they might be excessive/crufty. What images should we keep, and what should we remove? -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 14:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Here are additional explanation and sourcing about the 1580 Lithuanian ceremony of Grand Duke Stephen Báthory. During the inauguration/elevation ceremony of the Grand Duke Stephen Báthory (29 May 1580) a blessed sword and hat (both were sanctified by Pope Gregory XIII himself) was used in the Vilnius Cathedral and the ceremony likely did not feature the usual Gediminas' Cap at all (it certainly wasn't placed on Báthory's head). Nevertheless, multiple WP:RS describe the ceremony of 29 May 1580 as elevation/enthronement ceremony of the new Grand Duke of Lithuania (Stephen Báthory) and this clearly was an ignoration of the stipulations of the Union of Lublin. Supporting sources:
1. "Iš pradžių, regis, buvo mėginama didžiajam kunigaikščiui rengti atskirą ceremoniją. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. Vilniaus katedroje įvykęs popiežiaus kalavijo ir karūnos perdavimo aktas amžininkų akimis ir buvo Stepono Batoro, kaip didžiojo kunigaikščio, intronizavimas" (English: At first, it seems, there was an attempt to hold a separate ceremony for the Grand Duke. In the eyes of contemporaries, the act of handing over the papal sword and crown that took place in the Vilnius Cathedral on 1580 May 29 was the enthronement of Stephen Báthory as the Grand Duke). Source: publication by Lithuanian Institute of History, p. 9.
2. Maciej Stryjkowski's Kronika polska, litewska, żmódzka i wszystkiéj Rusi Macieja Stryjkowskiego. T. 2. Warsaw, 1846, p. 432. This source is provided as a backing source in the publication by Lithuanian Institute of History (mentioned above).
3. "Vienas iš tokių, Lietuvos valstybingumą tvirtinančių valdovo gestų buvo jo pakėlimo į Lietuvos sostą ceremonija. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. valdovas priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių iš žemaičių vyskupo Merkelio Giedraičio rankų priėmė popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII atsiųstą kalaviją ir Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio kepurę kartu su apaštališkuoju palaiminimu. Toks ritualas turėjo sąsajų su ankstesnių valdovų pakėlimo į Lietuvos dk sostą ceremonialu, nors sudarius Liublino sąjungą, jis neturėjo būti praktikuojamas." (English: One of such gestures of the ruler confirming Lithuania's statehood was the ceremony of his elevation to the throne of Lithuania. On 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the ruler accepted the sword sent by Pope Gregory XIII and the hat of the Grand Duke of Lithuania together with the apostolic blessing from the hands of the Samogitian Bishop Merkelis Giedraitis. Such a ritual had connections with the ceremonial elevation of previous rulers to the throne of Lithuania, although it was not supposed to be practiced after the union of Lublin). Source: publication by Vilnius University, p. 67 (title page claims that there also is a translation to the Hungarian language by BEATRIX TÖLGYESI).
4. "Vienas įdomiausių su Lietuva susijusių Naujosios Karalystės iždinės eksponatų – iš pirmo žvilgsnio neišvaizdi kalavijo geležtė. Iš tikrųjų – tai 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių Lenkijos ir Lietuvos valdovui Steponui Batorui (1576–1586) įteiktas popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII pašventintas kalavijas, per amžius praradęs savo puošnią rankeną. Kalaviją ir perlais puoštą popiežiaus pašventintą kepurę valdovui įteikė žemaičių vyskupas Merkelis Giedraitis. Lietuvoje ši ceremonija traktuota kaip Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio pakėlimo iškilmės, kurias rengiant buvo ignoruojama Liublino unija ir manifestuojamas Lietuvos savarankiškumas." (English: One of the most interesting exhibits of the treasury of the New Kingdom related to Lithuania is an unsightly sword blade at first glance. In fact, on 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the sword consecrated by Pope Gregory XIII was presented to the ruler of Poland and Lithuania, Stephen Báthory (1576-1586), having lost its ornate handle over the centuries. Merkelis Giedraitis, bishop of Samogitia, presented the ruler with a sword and a hat decorated with pearls consecrated by the Pope. In Lithuania, this ceremony was treated as the celebration of the elevation of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which the Union of Lublin was ignored and Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested). Source: article published by the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania.
5. Identical paragraph like in the 4th point (above) was (likely) later republished by the official website of the Lithuanian National Radio and Television ( HERE) and a very popular Lithuanian news website 15min.lt ( HERE).
By the way, the 1569 Union of Lublin was not accepted in the first try because of the Lithuanian nobles strong objection to it and its conditions. However, the Principality of Moscow was waging a successful war against the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (which lost important territories like Polotsk) and the Kingdom of Poland was not much willing to help the Lithuanians until a chunk of territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was transferred to the Kingdom of Poland and eventually they accepted the Union of Lublin. This led to successful reconquests by joint Polish-Lithuanian military forces (e.g. Polotsk, etc.). Moreover, this ceremony of Stephen Báthory is not the first example when the Lithuanian nobles violated previous agreements with the Poles (e.g. Casimir IV Jagiellon was separately proclaimed the Grand Duke of Lithuania by the Lithuanians and a ceremony inaugurating him as the Grand Duke of Lithuania was held in 1440, this way violating the Union of Grodno (1432) and terminating the Polish–Lithuanian union ( first source, second source, p. 8). -- Pofka ( talk) 20:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
undeniably reliable English-language sources, which ones? Marcelus ( talk) 20:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Moreover, this 1580 ceremony is also described by non-Lithuanian authors (quoted above): Almut Bues ( German scientist; publication by Lithuanian Institute of History, p. 9) and Noémi Erzsébet Bulla (Hungarian scientist; publication by Vilnius University, p. 67). By the way, both quotes by Almut Bues and Noémi Erzsébet Bulla are in publications which currently are hosted in the official websites of the Vilnius University and Lithuanian Institute of History, so there also are no grounds to treat them as non-WP:RS.Cukrakalnis ( talk) 22:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis, @ Piotrus; I have a proposal that I think is a reasonable compromise. It can be found here: User:Marcelus/sandbox#Blessed_sword_-_proposed_changes. I added a little more context for the Grodno convention, it did not take place before the election (which was in 1575), but a few days before Batory's coronation. As for the 1580 ceremony, I think it's important to add that Batory was given a blessed sword and hat for his battles against the infidels. On the other hand, it should also be added that this ceremony was interpreted in Lithuania as an elevation of the Grand Duke. The sentence: In Lithuania, this ceremony was treated as the celebration of the elevation of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested, is very close to what is written on the Vilnius Palace website. Moreover, it is important to emphasize that Batory did not officially become the ruler of Lithuania until 1580, since he was already recognized by the Lithuanian delegation on May 5, 1576. This is important so as not to give the reader such an erroneous impression. I think this is a good proposition, but I am open to suggestions. Marcelus ( talk) 21:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC) [sidenote: I just realised Pofka has one way iban with me, I totally forgot about that, sorry for adressing them directly, I will try now to limit my participation in this discussion to minimum] Marcelus ( talk) 23:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis: Thanks for your opinion. By the way, it is important to note here that the 1580 ceremony had three important aspects for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 1) Stephen Báthory was elevated/enthroned as the Grand Duke of Lithuania; 2) a separate ceremony manifested Lithuania's sovereignty; 3) a separate ceremony was held by ignoring/violating the Union of Lublin (because it stipulated that a joint Polish-Lithuanian monarch will be elected in the Election sejm and crowned at the same time). A separate ceremony of 1580 clearly was the will of Lithuanian nobles to ignore the Union of Lublin because they demanded a separate ceremony before the Union and then organized it with Báthory. All these three aspects are clearly stressed in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania ( quoted above), so until solid arguments are provided (Piotrus?) why the official website of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania is not a WP:RS and where it is stipulated in Wikipedia (e.g. it is not included to Wikipedia:Deprecated sources) – no information in it is dubious and there absolutely are no violations of the WP:OR rule in this article describing the 1580 ceremony. The ignoration of the Union of Lublin is clearly expressed in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania: "... rengiant buvo ignoruojama Liublino unija ir manifestuojamas Lietuvos savarankiškumas" (English: "... during which the Union of Lublin was ignored and Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested"). So all these three aspects are important and the sentence "On 29 May 1580, a ceremony was held in the Vilnius Cathedral during which bishop Merkelis Giedraitis presented Stephen Báthory (King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania since 1 May 1576) a luxuriously decorated sword and a hat adorned with pearls (both were sanctified by Pope Gregory XIII himself), while this ceremony manifested the sovereignty of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and had the meaning of elevation of the new Grand Duke of Lithuania, this way ignoring the stipulations of the Union of Lublin" is just a condensed variant of facts provided in the article of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania. Cukrakalnis, do you have a different opinion about any of these three points? -- Pofka ( talk) 11:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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Grand Duchy of Lithuania was founded Roman's that come on ships from city Aquillea that written in Cronicle of Bychovec https://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Bychovec/frametext.htm Александр Макович ( talk) 17:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Cronicale of Byhovec tell us ,that Grand Duchy Lithuania was founded by Roman empire nobel Apollo "Dovspunk Kitovras""a prince named Apollo , who also climbed into that place with And there were with him five hundred people of Roman nobles , and between them on the island were four families of Roman nobles: from the coat of arms Kitovras Dovsprunk, from the coat of arms Kolumnov Prespor Caesarin, and from the coat of arms Urseinov Julian, and from the coat of arms Rosa Torogo. And went by sea between the earth , and took with him one astronomer, which astronomer understood by the stars, and went on ships by sea to the north, and bypassed France and England, and entered the up the river Neman, up to the sea called Little 10, which is called the Neman Sea, and for that reason that sea is called the Neman Sea, because the Neman flows into that sea by twelve mouths, and each [of them] is called by a special name, and of those twelve mouths one mouth was called by the name of Gilia. And they went up that estuary and reached the whole Neman, where it was already flowing in one channel. And, going up the Neman, they reached the river Dubissa 11, and, entering that river Dubissa, they found above it high mountains /2/ and on those mountains large plains and luxurious oak forests, abounding in all kinds of animals, that is, first of all, aurochs, bison, elks, deer, chamois, lynxes, martens, foxes, squirrels, ermine and other various species, and here in the rivers a mass of unusual fish. And these were only such fish as were found in those rivers, but there were also a lot of different amazing fish from the sea, because the mouth of the Neman was not far away, where the Neman flows into the sea. Above these rivers, above the Dubissa and above the Neman and above the Jura, they settled there and began to increase ther population. at the time [36] when Kernus dominated in the Zavilean side, those people settled behind Vilija and played on oak pipes 28, and called that Kernus the coast in his Italian language in Latin, Litus, where people multiply, and the pipes on which they played - tuba, and called those people in his own way, in Latin, connecting the coast with the pipe - Listubanya . And simple people did not know how to speak Latin and began to be called simply Lithuania, and from that time the state began to be called Lithuanian and to increase from the side of Zhemaitia. And then prince great Kernus and Gimbut, wishing to expand the fatherland, have collected forces the Lithuanian and Zhemaitian and have gone on Russia to Braslav and to Polotsk, and much harm to Russian have made and their land have ruined, and set of people have taken away in captivity. ORIGIN: https://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Bychovec/frametext.htm Александр Макович ( talk) 17:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Why are you mentioning "Ruthenian" instead of Belarusian language? There were no any other language of Ruthenian group more popular than Belarusian (it had a dominant majority across all Duchy's territory). So German, Tatar and Karaim worth separate mentioning but no the Belarusian, what? 79.191.134.189 ( talk) 18:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
In The Vladimir Putin Interview, Putin claimed that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was called "…the Lithuanian-Russian Duchy, because Russians were a significant part of its population." [1]. I have been totally unable to find any reference to anything called “Lithuanian-Russian Duchy” anywhere. Can anyone else help me with this? If this is an outright lie, can anyone help me find historians saying as much? Victor Grigas ( talk) 16:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
References
My apology, but in this article you provide historically incorrect data not saying that the Grand Duchy first capital was Novogrudok and it was founded in Belarussian territories, confusing readers. Please consider correcting your article and rewriting it according to the Historical evidence, all Lithuanian and Belarusian citizens know, thanks 188.77.31.128 ( talk) 06:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)