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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Neutral Weak Oppose Without evidence or an explanation I fall back onto
WP:ENGLISH for this one. But I an willing to change if the name is shown to be the most prominent in English.--
Labattblueboy (
talk)
12:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The river appears to be broken into the North Valira River and East Valira River, both being tributaries of the Valira, or Gran Valira. Andorra by Byron Augustin
[1] provided a good overview of the river in pages 8-13, but refers to it as the Valira river not Gran Valira. Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary uses Gran Valira as does the Lonely Planets 2007 Spain guide I have here at home. I remain sceptical because every other wikipedia uses Valira, but I'll remain neutral. Frankly, the article contains so little information that this discussion seems almost irrelevance. --
Labattblueboy (
talk)
06:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment — "Gran Valira" is the official name used on local maps of Andorra published by the Andorran Government, as well as on tourist maps of Andorra written in the English language, published by the Andorran Ministry of Tourism, and the
guide to Andorra (p.4), published by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics.
"Valira" is ambiguous because there are three main rivers in Andorra with Valira in their names: the
Valira del Nord, the
Valira d'Orient, and the
Gran Valira. The printed maps are in copyright and cannot be copied here, but the same dataset is used on
Google Maps showing the Gran Valira and the other Valiras too.
It is fair to say many internet sources are not particularly reliable and do not distinguish between the different Valira rivers in Andorra. I'm not sure what the best solution is.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
01:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)reply
I too am curious about the usages on other wikis and in Spain.
fr:Valira is a direct translation of
es:Valira and is almost identical to it. Both articles state that the name of the river in Andorra after the confluence of the
Valira del Nord and the
Valira d'Orient in Escaldes-Engordany is
Gran Valira (Spanish) / Grand Valira (French). I don't see anything in
es:Valira that says the name Gran Valira is only used in Escaldes-Engordany; I think it says it is the name of the river after Escaldes-Engordany. The creator of
es:Valira also created
es:Gran Valira. I think the distinction between the Valira and Gran Valira made in the content of all of these articles, albeit not in their titles, is identical to that made by the Andorran Government in its maps. By contrast,
ca:Valira makes no distinction between Valira and Gran Valira, and perhaps this is not surprising (see next paragraph for why) given that it appears from its editing history to have been written by Spaniards, not by Andorrans. There is of course no Andorran wiki.
Regarding the usage in Spain — more specifically in Catalonia — there is a popular series of Spanish maps published in Spain by
Rando Éditions. The latest December 2001 edition of their 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí based on survey data of the
Institut Cartogràfic de Catalunya (an institution of the Catalan Government, the
Generalitat de Catalunya) uses Valira both for the Spanish part of the river in
Alt Urgell and for the Andorran parts of the river up to the Escaldes-Engordany confluence. Whether this is the result of a printing error, ignorance of the Andorran names, or Spanish custom is not clear and needs further investigation.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
01:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The Spanish Berga 1:200000 geological map of the area, calls it Rio Valira, without any "Gran". It marks the branches as mentioned above and other smaller tributories.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk)
12:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Is that map published in English or Spanish? And do you have the full title of the map? Per
WP:ENGLISH, we should prefer English-language sources in determining what is the common name.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)reply
We should use English language sources if they exist. In the case of this river, where English language sources will be limited, and usually produced by those for whom English is not their native language, we need to look at all sources.
Skinsmoke (
talk)
13:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Summary of reliable sources
English-language sources — country of publication
English (Andorra) The
Guide to Andorra (p.4), published in English by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics, uses the name "Gran Valira" to refer to the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and it does not mention any name for the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
English (Andorra) The tourist maps published in English by the Andorran Government's Ministry of Tourism use the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
English (USA) Google Maps uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and no other name is shown for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Non-English-language sources — language (country of publication)
Catalan (Andorra) 1:50000 map and other scales including 1:2500, Andorran Government's Ministry of Town Planning, latest edition 2009, uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
Catalan (Spain) 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí, Rando Éditions, December 2001, uses the name "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Catalan (Spain) 1:200000 geological map, Berga, uses "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Please add additional reliable sources in the appropriate sections above using the same format.
The main difference between these reliable sources concerns the name of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border. Official Andorran Government sources published in English and Google Maps say "Gran Valira". These sources seem to me to take precedence per
WP:ENGLISH over Spanish sources published in Catalan or Spanish that use the name "Valira" for the 12km length of river inside Andorra. If the article is re-titled "Gran Valira", it should probably mention "Valira" as being the Spanish name. What do other editors think?
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Support I think I would generally agree with you on this. Clearly there is a difference between Andorran and Spanish/Catalan useage. This appears to be down to the fact that Andorrans need to disambiguate and explain which Valira they are referring to, whereas this is not necessary in Spain/Catalunya as there is only the one Valira they could be referring to. As a global encyclopaedia, we need to disambiguate (no doubt somebody will eventually write something about the other Valiras), and Gran Valira seems the obvious way to do this. May as well go the whole hog, and have
Valira list the other Andorran rivers while we're at it.
Skinsmoke (
talk)
13:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
You're welcome. Please remember (and assume) that it may have been an honest mistake on the other user's part, and that maybe they didn't see the discussion. Regards,
Cyphoidbomb (
talk)
02:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I reverted the renaming of this article to
Grand Valira River as it was not discussed, nor did it take into account the naming discussions above, assumed that the 2010 naming consensus was not seen before the move...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
15:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rivers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Rivers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RiversWikipedia:WikiProject RiversTemplate:WikiProject RiversRiver articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject European Microstates, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
European Microstates on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European MicrostatesWikipedia:WikiProject European MicrostatesTemplate:WikiProject European MicrostatesEuropean Microstates articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Neutral Weak Oppose Without evidence or an explanation I fall back onto
WP:ENGLISH for this one. But I an willing to change if the name is shown to be the most prominent in English.--
Labattblueboy (
talk)
12:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The river appears to be broken into the North Valira River and East Valira River, both being tributaries of the Valira, or Gran Valira. Andorra by Byron Augustin
[1] provided a good overview of the river in pages 8-13, but refers to it as the Valira river not Gran Valira. Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary uses Gran Valira as does the Lonely Planets 2007 Spain guide I have here at home. I remain sceptical because every other wikipedia uses Valira, but I'll remain neutral. Frankly, the article contains so little information that this discussion seems almost irrelevance. --
Labattblueboy (
talk)
06:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment — "Gran Valira" is the official name used on local maps of Andorra published by the Andorran Government, as well as on tourist maps of Andorra written in the English language, published by the Andorran Ministry of Tourism, and the
guide to Andorra (p.4), published by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics.
"Valira" is ambiguous because there are three main rivers in Andorra with Valira in their names: the
Valira del Nord, the
Valira d'Orient, and the
Gran Valira. The printed maps are in copyright and cannot be copied here, but the same dataset is used on
Google Maps showing the Gran Valira and the other Valiras too.
It is fair to say many internet sources are not particularly reliable and do not distinguish between the different Valira rivers in Andorra. I'm not sure what the best solution is.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
01:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)reply
I too am curious about the usages on other wikis and in Spain.
fr:Valira is a direct translation of
es:Valira and is almost identical to it. Both articles state that the name of the river in Andorra after the confluence of the
Valira del Nord and the
Valira d'Orient in Escaldes-Engordany is
Gran Valira (Spanish) / Grand Valira (French). I don't see anything in
es:Valira that says the name Gran Valira is only used in Escaldes-Engordany; I think it says it is the name of the river after Escaldes-Engordany. The creator of
es:Valira also created
es:Gran Valira. I think the distinction between the Valira and Gran Valira made in the content of all of these articles, albeit not in their titles, is identical to that made by the Andorran Government in its maps. By contrast,
ca:Valira makes no distinction between Valira and Gran Valira, and perhaps this is not surprising (see next paragraph for why) given that it appears from its editing history to have been written by Spaniards, not by Andorrans. There is of course no Andorran wiki.
Regarding the usage in Spain — more specifically in Catalonia — there is a popular series of Spanish maps published in Spain by
Rando Éditions. The latest December 2001 edition of their 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí based on survey data of the
Institut Cartogràfic de Catalunya (an institution of the Catalan Government, the
Generalitat de Catalunya) uses Valira both for the Spanish part of the river in
Alt Urgell and for the Andorran parts of the river up to the Escaldes-Engordany confluence. Whether this is the result of a printing error, ignorance of the Andorran names, or Spanish custom is not clear and needs further investigation.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
01:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The Spanish Berga 1:200000 geological map of the area, calls it Rio Valira, without any "Gran". It marks the branches as mentioned above and other smaller tributories.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk)
12:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Is that map published in English or Spanish? And do you have the full title of the map? Per
WP:ENGLISH, we should prefer English-language sources in determining what is the common name.
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)reply
We should use English language sources if they exist. In the case of this river, where English language sources will be limited, and usually produced by those for whom English is not their native language, we need to look at all sources.
Skinsmoke (
talk)
13:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Summary of reliable sources
English-language sources — country of publication
English (Andorra) The
Guide to Andorra (p.4), published in English by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics, uses the name "Gran Valira" to refer to the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and it does not mention any name for the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
English (Andorra) The tourist maps published in English by the Andorran Government's Ministry of Tourism use the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
English (USA) Google Maps uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and no other name is shown for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Non-English-language sources — language (country of publication)
Catalan (Andorra) 1:50000 map and other scales including 1:2500, Andorran Government's Ministry of Town Planning, latest edition 2009, uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
Catalan (Spain) 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí, Rando Éditions, December 2001, uses the name "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Catalan (Spain) 1:200000 geological map, Berga, uses "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
Please add additional reliable sources in the appropriate sections above using the same format.
The main difference between these reliable sources concerns the name of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border. Official Andorran Government sources published in English and Google Maps say "Gran Valira". These sources seem to me to take precedence per
WP:ENGLISH over Spanish sources published in Catalan or Spanish that use the name "Valira" for the 12km length of river inside Andorra. If the article is re-titled "Gran Valira", it should probably mention "Valira" as being the Spanish name. What do other editors think?
91.187.66.243 (
talk)
00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)reply
Support I think I would generally agree with you on this. Clearly there is a difference between Andorran and Spanish/Catalan useage. This appears to be down to the fact that Andorrans need to disambiguate and explain which Valira they are referring to, whereas this is not necessary in Spain/Catalunya as there is only the one Valira they could be referring to. As a global encyclopaedia, we need to disambiguate (no doubt somebody will eventually write something about the other Valiras), and Gran Valira seems the obvious way to do this. May as well go the whole hog, and have
Valira list the other Andorran rivers while we're at it.
Skinsmoke (
talk)
13:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
You're welcome. Please remember (and assume) that it may have been an honest mistake on the other user's part, and that maybe they didn't see the discussion. Regards,
Cyphoidbomb (
talk)
02:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I reverted the renaming of this article to
Grand Valira River as it was not discussed, nor did it take into account the naming discussions above, assumed that the 2010 naming consensus was not seen before the move...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
15:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)reply