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I removed a large amount of material added by Dar2020 - as seen in this diff - because it seemed to me to be more an essay and original research than encyclopedic material. There's also considerable POV in it, which again is a problem. There is some good stuff within that could certainly be added back to the article - in a more controlled manner - but the huge mass of the essay really isn't suitable, I feel. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Loganberry - Here's some of the citations:
“Out of My Comfort Zone” – Steve Waugh – the autobiography Michael Joseph (publishers), 2005
P49 – in reference to Zimbabwe 1983 World Cup
“A young Graeme Hick was as good as any 18 year-old has ever been in the history of cricket; to my mind, he was at his peak back then.”
PP336-337 – in ref to Atherton declaration and Hick in general
Graeme Hick “had as much talent as any player I’d ever come across”
“…just as it appeared Hick’s liberating gifts were about to re-emerge, in stepped England captain Mike Atherton to extinguish the flame. As far as exerting your authority at the wrong time and not knowing your players well enough Atherton’s decision to declare before Tea during the 4th day of the Third Test, in Sydney, when Hick was 98 not out, must rate as a major blunder.”
“In his misguided belief that to show tunnel vision in the search for victory was a virtue, Atherton overlooked the very secret to team success: effective man-management.”
“In Hick, Atherton had a potentially great player who hadn’t scored a Test century against Australia and was in urgent need of a confidence boost. One more over and he might have been a totally different player for the rest of his career, but sadly for him, he never did make a (Test) hundred against us and his self-belief never matched his gifts.”
“County cricket attacks…were a dangerous impediment to his development” (ie – in terms of ingraining faults in technique).
I couldn't get a hold of Warne's autobiog to note the exact citations:
Shane Warne – my autobiography – Coronet Books 2002
If it's any help, I'm certain that the quotes I originally posted are as close to word for word as you can get. I can also recall the quotes were in the "Ashes" chapter of his book which is in the first 50 pages.
Andrew Flintoff – Being Freddie – Hodder and Stoughton – 2006 – page 45
“I remember Graeme Hick being good to me during those early stages.” (in reference to his test debut v South Africa, Trent Bridge 1998)
This is a link to a page showing Hick's test average filtered between his 178 v India in 1993 and his 141 v SA in 1995 - 25 tests at a (rounded) average of 50.
If you haven't seen them already, the Cric Info page for Hick also has links to some good articles by Mark Nicholas, Mike Atherton, and Martin-Jenkins. The Nicholas one (Hick Best Left to Reflect...) covers the "flat-track" debate well. The Atherton one's (Why I'm Backing Hick...) about the Perth(!) innings. The Martin-Jenkins (Cricketing Immortals Welcome...) is also of note. The Match reports for the 98* test are also interesting.
The BBC website also has a story "Hick's place in history" which includes good quotes from Tom Moody and Graeme Fowler. There is also a link to an archived news report on the BBC site ("1988: Hick makes cricketing history") which covers his 405* v Somerset and superbly captures the preposterous pressure Hick was put under (it includes an interview with some geezer who referred to Hick as the next Bradman - which, I'm led to believe, many people did).
There's also a fair chunk about Hick in Atherton's autobiography which I'll post later.
Have you considered mentioning Hick's change in technique during the early 1990's - his style pre-1993 resembled Gooch a bit (more upright and rigid).
I trust this is enough for you to get on with. We obviously shouldn't go overboard but, equally, the page should reflect the immense attention and scrutiny Hick's career has drawn (from not just Worcester fans, but legends like Waugh and Warne as well). Dar2020 20:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/odi/batting/all-time-ranking.php - link to Hick's place at no31 on ICC list of top ODI batsmen of all-time.
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/odi/batting/player-display.php?id=1595 - link to Hick's ODI ratings page.
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/player-display.php?id=1595 - link to Hick's test ranking page. Dar2020 20:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This isn't very likely unless he keeps playing for at least two more years, and plays more one-day games than he has of late, but should Hick score another 1,032 List A runs before retirement, he will overtake Graham Gooch as the heaviest List A run-scorer of all time. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just checked the relevant section of WP:CITE, and it says:
So my comment above is wrong, and the guideline seems pretty clear: we can only use quotations for which we have both exact wording and definite page number(s). Still, it shouldn't be impossible: my draft as it stands now has around 30 sources cites even discounting those which don't fulfill the aforementioned requirements! Loganberry ( Talk) 16:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed that if you ignore the three seasons 1993-95 inclusive (ie go straight from 1992 to 1996) Hick's English-summer average rises then falls in alternate years through his entire career. Whether there's something in that I have no idea! Loganberry ( Talk) 02:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My current draft of the revised article is 54K in size. This is well above the 32K at which point the "This may be longer than is preferable" notice comes up, but Wikipedia:Article size points out that what is important is the size of the main body of prose - excluding such things as references, of which the aforementioned draft has a very large number (over 40), many linked with templates (eg {{ cite book}}). Nor do images, infoboxes etc count. Without those, the text is more like 30K.
Perhaps more important is another comment on the Article size page, which says that readers "may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words". Excluding references etc, my current draft of the Hick article comes in at about 5,300 words, which is okay. I don't think there's any reasonable way to split the biography into sub-articles, since the biggest point of discussion is the difference between Hick's domestic and international careers: the two simply cannot be considered apart from each other.
Finally, "going over the recommended limit needs to be justified by the topic". Whether we can use that justification here is arguable, but I would say yes. It's certainly the case that Hick is one of the most discussed cricketers of our time, and that combining that with his long and record-strewn domestic career gives us a great deal to talk about. My own view is that so long as the introduction gives a good summary (which is something we should be aiming for anyway), an article of considerable length is justified in Hick's case. Loganberry ( Talk) 03:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Finding less positive quotes about Hick that are non-sensationalist and thoughtful is easier said than done. I don't have references or citations, but a lot of what Willis (particularly in his commentary for Sky and his Daily Mail column) used to say was stuff like "pathetic test average. Time's up. End of story". Okay, the guy's opinion has to be respected deeply but such comment is no more helpful to a proper biog than a one-sided rant from a Hick fan. I tolerate Willis to an extent because he has alway's acknowledged Hick's domestic achievements and, while his view of the intl Hick is harsh, he is obviously not alone in that respect. Atherton tried to find a decent balance in his book, but again its disappointing that he didn't see fit to acknowledge Hick's ODI achievements. I was very interested by a section of his book on Hick (p138 I believe) where Atherton comments "the general perception was he failed to fulfil his potential and shied away from confrontations that are the lifeblood of test cricket". Crucially, he then says "If so, ...", which to me indicates that he knows or suspects that such an argument is not cut and dried and is speculating as opposed to stating.
I have a lot of time for the articles of Mark Nicholas and CMJ on Hick; not necessarily because they are rather supportive, but more because they strike me as being rather balanced - they attempt to address criticisms of Hick at intl level logically, clearly and calmly; they are more respectful to the criticisms of Hick than critics are to the mitigating arguments, I believe. For that reason, it may be an idea to use their writings to find the less positive stuff about Hick. The crucial thing about the redraft is that we're trying to submit an article the fans and critics across the spectrum can accept as fair. As I said above, the major problem is that most negative views (which must be noted and respected) on Hick are not always backed up by the requisite detail and objectivity (they just tend to spout cliche - I mean, where's the evidence for "flat-track" - certainly not Perth 98 or Headingly 2000 to name but two - both examples of Hick making serious contributions on bad pitches against quality bowlers in low-scoring matches), and I think this reflects badly on the arguments of Hick's critics. The additions I made to the article initially were not graced with measure, but each assertion was backed up with a strong reference. Apart from a disappointing final test average (for which there are oodles of mitigating circumstances), a nick-name from John Bracewell, and a some boasts from Merv Hughes, I'm not convinced there's much else for Hick critics to get stuck into. Sure, they can point to given innings where Hick failed, but we can point to innings where he did not (besides, Mike Atherton didn't hit 185* every time his back was against the wall). They can point to poor patches in test cricket, but we can point to the world-class period Hick enjoyed between 1993-95. The issues regarding the treatment of Hick, I believe, are a lot less debatable, as the arguments in my essay indicate.
I'm not saying Hick was perfect and I'm not saying his shortcomings and poor patches should be overlooked, not at all. What I do feel, however, is that the standard criticisms for Hick are rather misguided; ie everyone refers to Hick's suspect technique v short stuff, but I'm sure you'll agree that his susceptibility to it was more down to suspect shot selection (cause perhaps by overanxiousness to prove himself, caused in turn by the fact he was always getting dropped) than technique (there was nothing wrong with his technique v short stuff at Centurion in 95 or Perth in 98 was there?). This is actually another argument of Warne's and I wish I could get a hold of his book.
The likes of Warne, and Nicholas and CMJ never say Hick's perfect, they agree he has shortcomings and they acknowledge the criticisms Hick has received. They do so in a balanced way, however; a way that is more balanced than the likes of Willis IMO. For that reason, I feel that it is such writings that we should give most time to. If thoughtful and reasoned quotes from critics like Willis can be found then great, but such quotes don't seem to jumping out at us and I don't think its because we're not looking hard enough.
We should not seek to be biased for Hick and we should not seek to disrespect the views of those who do not view him in the same light as we do. But equally, we shouldn't be giving all arguments the same weight if the evidence isn't there. I'm digressing a bit, but the case of Hick is a bit like that of Timothy Dalton's tenure as James Bond - there's an abundance of casual criticism, but it generally tends to be the supportive views that are more detailed, better researched and appear more objective. If in the course of our research, we find the balance of detailed, thoughtful, and objective views on Hick is tipped in the balance of the the more sympathetic and supportive, we must respect that (im)balance.
If those who don't like Hick aren't satisfied, there is nothing to stop them appearing on these boards to give their (properly substantiated) views. The criticisms of Hick should - along with the supportive views - be allowed the force they merit.
I seem to have gone off on one again there! I'm looking forward to seeing the redraft though.
Dar2020 23:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The revised version I have just uploaded is a great deal longer than its predecessor, but in Hick's case I think that's entirely justified. If footnotes, infoboxes etc are stripped out then the body text itself weighs in at around 30K, which for one of the most discussed English cricketers of modern times and a man with more than twenty years in the first-class game I don't think is unreasonable. The one thing I really would have liked would have been a photo, but sadly there seem to be no suitably-licensed pictures of Hick available. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the photo that User:Ernst Stavro Blofeld added, for which he used the {{ promotional}} template, and repeat here what I said on his Talk page:
About the photo you added to the Graeme Hick article... it's nice, but I don't think it's going to be acceptable, because the criteria listed in the tag template include:
That's clearly not the case with Hick: he's both still alive and still appearing in public (ie by playing cricket), and it's perfectly possible for someone to take a photo of him. Whether a free image has been created is not the point: the tag specifically requires that it could not be created. Loganberry ( Talk) 23:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You can be 100% sure it is Graeme Hick but you won't make it bigger without losing focus. It's okay for the infobox so leave it. Pity he was wearing shades but never mind. BlackJack | talk page 19:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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I removed a large amount of material added by Dar2020 - as seen in this diff - because it seemed to me to be more an essay and original research than encyclopedic material. There's also considerable POV in it, which again is a problem. There is some good stuff within that could certainly be added back to the article - in a more controlled manner - but the huge mass of the essay really isn't suitable, I feel. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Loganberry - Here's some of the citations:
“Out of My Comfort Zone” – Steve Waugh – the autobiography Michael Joseph (publishers), 2005
P49 – in reference to Zimbabwe 1983 World Cup
“A young Graeme Hick was as good as any 18 year-old has ever been in the history of cricket; to my mind, he was at his peak back then.”
PP336-337 – in ref to Atherton declaration and Hick in general
Graeme Hick “had as much talent as any player I’d ever come across”
“…just as it appeared Hick’s liberating gifts were about to re-emerge, in stepped England captain Mike Atherton to extinguish the flame. As far as exerting your authority at the wrong time and not knowing your players well enough Atherton’s decision to declare before Tea during the 4th day of the Third Test, in Sydney, when Hick was 98 not out, must rate as a major blunder.”
“In his misguided belief that to show tunnel vision in the search for victory was a virtue, Atherton overlooked the very secret to team success: effective man-management.”
“In Hick, Atherton had a potentially great player who hadn’t scored a Test century against Australia and was in urgent need of a confidence boost. One more over and he might have been a totally different player for the rest of his career, but sadly for him, he never did make a (Test) hundred against us and his self-belief never matched his gifts.”
“County cricket attacks…were a dangerous impediment to his development” (ie – in terms of ingraining faults in technique).
I couldn't get a hold of Warne's autobiog to note the exact citations:
Shane Warne – my autobiography – Coronet Books 2002
If it's any help, I'm certain that the quotes I originally posted are as close to word for word as you can get. I can also recall the quotes were in the "Ashes" chapter of his book which is in the first 50 pages.
Andrew Flintoff – Being Freddie – Hodder and Stoughton – 2006 – page 45
“I remember Graeme Hick being good to me during those early stages.” (in reference to his test debut v South Africa, Trent Bridge 1998)
This is a link to a page showing Hick's test average filtered between his 178 v India in 1993 and his 141 v SA in 1995 - 25 tests at a (rounded) average of 50.
If you haven't seen them already, the Cric Info page for Hick also has links to some good articles by Mark Nicholas, Mike Atherton, and Martin-Jenkins. The Nicholas one (Hick Best Left to Reflect...) covers the "flat-track" debate well. The Atherton one's (Why I'm Backing Hick...) about the Perth(!) innings. The Martin-Jenkins (Cricketing Immortals Welcome...) is also of note. The Match reports for the 98* test are also interesting.
The BBC website also has a story "Hick's place in history" which includes good quotes from Tom Moody and Graeme Fowler. There is also a link to an archived news report on the BBC site ("1988: Hick makes cricketing history") which covers his 405* v Somerset and superbly captures the preposterous pressure Hick was put under (it includes an interview with some geezer who referred to Hick as the next Bradman - which, I'm led to believe, many people did).
There's also a fair chunk about Hick in Atherton's autobiography which I'll post later.
Have you considered mentioning Hick's change in technique during the early 1990's - his style pre-1993 resembled Gooch a bit (more upright and rigid).
I trust this is enough for you to get on with. We obviously shouldn't go overboard but, equally, the page should reflect the immense attention and scrutiny Hick's career has drawn (from not just Worcester fans, but legends like Waugh and Warne as well). Dar2020 20:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/odi/batting/all-time-ranking.php - link to Hick's place at no31 on ICC list of top ODI batsmen of all-time.
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/odi/batting/player-display.php?id=1595 - link to Hick's ODI ratings page.
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/player-display.php?id=1595 - link to Hick's test ranking page. Dar2020 20:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This isn't very likely unless he keeps playing for at least two more years, and plays more one-day games than he has of late, but should Hick score another 1,032 List A runs before retirement, he will overtake Graham Gooch as the heaviest List A run-scorer of all time. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just checked the relevant section of WP:CITE, and it says:
So my comment above is wrong, and the guideline seems pretty clear: we can only use quotations for which we have both exact wording and definite page number(s). Still, it shouldn't be impossible: my draft as it stands now has around 30 sources cites even discounting those which don't fulfill the aforementioned requirements! Loganberry ( Talk) 16:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed that if you ignore the three seasons 1993-95 inclusive (ie go straight from 1992 to 1996) Hick's English-summer average rises then falls in alternate years through his entire career. Whether there's something in that I have no idea! Loganberry ( Talk) 02:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My current draft of the revised article is 54K in size. This is well above the 32K at which point the "This may be longer than is preferable" notice comes up, but Wikipedia:Article size points out that what is important is the size of the main body of prose - excluding such things as references, of which the aforementioned draft has a very large number (over 40), many linked with templates (eg {{ cite book}}). Nor do images, infoboxes etc count. Without those, the text is more like 30K.
Perhaps more important is another comment on the Article size page, which says that readers "may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words". Excluding references etc, my current draft of the Hick article comes in at about 5,300 words, which is okay. I don't think there's any reasonable way to split the biography into sub-articles, since the biggest point of discussion is the difference between Hick's domestic and international careers: the two simply cannot be considered apart from each other.
Finally, "going over the recommended limit needs to be justified by the topic". Whether we can use that justification here is arguable, but I would say yes. It's certainly the case that Hick is one of the most discussed cricketers of our time, and that combining that with his long and record-strewn domestic career gives us a great deal to talk about. My own view is that so long as the introduction gives a good summary (which is something we should be aiming for anyway), an article of considerable length is justified in Hick's case. Loganberry ( Talk) 03:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Finding less positive quotes about Hick that are non-sensationalist and thoughtful is easier said than done. I don't have references or citations, but a lot of what Willis (particularly in his commentary for Sky and his Daily Mail column) used to say was stuff like "pathetic test average. Time's up. End of story". Okay, the guy's opinion has to be respected deeply but such comment is no more helpful to a proper biog than a one-sided rant from a Hick fan. I tolerate Willis to an extent because he has alway's acknowledged Hick's domestic achievements and, while his view of the intl Hick is harsh, he is obviously not alone in that respect. Atherton tried to find a decent balance in his book, but again its disappointing that he didn't see fit to acknowledge Hick's ODI achievements. I was very interested by a section of his book on Hick (p138 I believe) where Atherton comments "the general perception was he failed to fulfil his potential and shied away from confrontations that are the lifeblood of test cricket". Crucially, he then says "If so, ...", which to me indicates that he knows or suspects that such an argument is not cut and dried and is speculating as opposed to stating.
I have a lot of time for the articles of Mark Nicholas and CMJ on Hick; not necessarily because they are rather supportive, but more because they strike me as being rather balanced - they attempt to address criticisms of Hick at intl level logically, clearly and calmly; they are more respectful to the criticisms of Hick than critics are to the mitigating arguments, I believe. For that reason, it may be an idea to use their writings to find the less positive stuff about Hick. The crucial thing about the redraft is that we're trying to submit an article the fans and critics across the spectrum can accept as fair. As I said above, the major problem is that most negative views (which must be noted and respected) on Hick are not always backed up by the requisite detail and objectivity (they just tend to spout cliche - I mean, where's the evidence for "flat-track" - certainly not Perth 98 or Headingly 2000 to name but two - both examples of Hick making serious contributions on bad pitches against quality bowlers in low-scoring matches), and I think this reflects badly on the arguments of Hick's critics. The additions I made to the article initially were not graced with measure, but each assertion was backed up with a strong reference. Apart from a disappointing final test average (for which there are oodles of mitigating circumstances), a nick-name from John Bracewell, and a some boasts from Merv Hughes, I'm not convinced there's much else for Hick critics to get stuck into. Sure, they can point to given innings where Hick failed, but we can point to innings where he did not (besides, Mike Atherton didn't hit 185* every time his back was against the wall). They can point to poor patches in test cricket, but we can point to the world-class period Hick enjoyed between 1993-95. The issues regarding the treatment of Hick, I believe, are a lot less debatable, as the arguments in my essay indicate.
I'm not saying Hick was perfect and I'm not saying his shortcomings and poor patches should be overlooked, not at all. What I do feel, however, is that the standard criticisms for Hick are rather misguided; ie everyone refers to Hick's suspect technique v short stuff, but I'm sure you'll agree that his susceptibility to it was more down to suspect shot selection (cause perhaps by overanxiousness to prove himself, caused in turn by the fact he was always getting dropped) than technique (there was nothing wrong with his technique v short stuff at Centurion in 95 or Perth in 98 was there?). This is actually another argument of Warne's and I wish I could get a hold of his book.
The likes of Warne, and Nicholas and CMJ never say Hick's perfect, they agree he has shortcomings and they acknowledge the criticisms Hick has received. They do so in a balanced way, however; a way that is more balanced than the likes of Willis IMO. For that reason, I feel that it is such writings that we should give most time to. If thoughtful and reasoned quotes from critics like Willis can be found then great, but such quotes don't seem to jumping out at us and I don't think its because we're not looking hard enough.
We should not seek to be biased for Hick and we should not seek to disrespect the views of those who do not view him in the same light as we do. But equally, we shouldn't be giving all arguments the same weight if the evidence isn't there. I'm digressing a bit, but the case of Hick is a bit like that of Timothy Dalton's tenure as James Bond - there's an abundance of casual criticism, but it generally tends to be the supportive views that are more detailed, better researched and appear more objective. If in the course of our research, we find the balance of detailed, thoughtful, and objective views on Hick is tipped in the balance of the the more sympathetic and supportive, we must respect that (im)balance.
If those who don't like Hick aren't satisfied, there is nothing to stop them appearing on these boards to give their (properly substantiated) views. The criticisms of Hick should - along with the supportive views - be allowed the force they merit.
I seem to have gone off on one again there! I'm looking forward to seeing the redraft though.
Dar2020 23:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The revised version I have just uploaded is a great deal longer than its predecessor, but in Hick's case I think that's entirely justified. If footnotes, infoboxes etc are stripped out then the body text itself weighs in at around 30K, which for one of the most discussed English cricketers of modern times and a man with more than twenty years in the first-class game I don't think is unreasonable. The one thing I really would have liked would have been a photo, but sadly there seem to be no suitably-licensed pictures of Hick available. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the photo that User:Ernst Stavro Blofeld added, for which he used the {{ promotional}} template, and repeat here what I said on his Talk page:
About the photo you added to the Graeme Hick article... it's nice, but I don't think it's going to be acceptable, because the criteria listed in the tag template include:
That's clearly not the case with Hick: he's both still alive and still appearing in public (ie by playing cricket), and it's perfectly possible for someone to take a photo of him. Whether a free image has been created is not the point: the tag specifically requires that it could not be created. Loganberry ( Talk) 23:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You can be 100% sure it is Graeme Hick but you won't make it bigger without losing focus. It's okay for the infobox so leave it. Pity he was wearing shades but never mind. BlackJack | talk page 19:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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