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First time ever I heard them called "governorates". In all languages they are called counties, and articles of them already exist as current day Provinces of Finland (rest were disbanded in 1997) and Historical provinces of Finland are the same. Yes, the title "County lord" was changed to "governer" in 1837 (not 1809), but it never changed the other terminology. Other than that, since the articles cover the "governorate" till 1917, it is erroneus to call Governorate of Uleåborg Uleåborg (it is Oulu) because Finnish had been an official language for 50 years by then and most likely over 95 % of the "governorate" spoke Finnish as native language (today only ~200 of Swedish speakers live in 130,000 people's Oulu) and breaks the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland and Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Finland guidelines. -- Pudeo ⺮ 18:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
In Finnish and Swedish they are called län, lääni which is province (or region) today. Russian language was the official language of the duchy only for a while, and had equal status. Still the article Guberniya says it can be translated as province as well, so is there any reason not to move this article to Provinces of the Grand Duchy of Finland or somehow merge with Historical provinces of Finland or current provinces of Finland? ie. Oulu Province is the same as the "Uleåborg Governorate" here. Why not just mention it in the history section there? -- Pudeo ⺮ 18:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, to anyone living in a city were languages other than Finnish are rarely or ever spoken it may be unavoidable not to Finnisize whenever, or whatever is translated into English, but that is just not how Wikipedia works. Not by policy, guideline nor convention.
For the second part, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, as some of what you say may seem to discourage against adding content to Wikipedia or even being against writing new articles. I'm quite sure that is not your intention, but please feel free to elaborate. Cheers, -- Domino theory ( talk) 20:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
As Colchichum has added the mergeto-template to the articles, I fully support the move on all cases. Perhaps the names should be changed to "Turku and Pori Province" from "Province of" to be consistent. That is, after the move later maybe. -- Pudeo ⺮ 17:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I can't help but wonder if what is being professed here is a desire to post-facto create what once were Governorates of the Russian Empire, and even Counties of the Kingdom of Sweden, into provinces as historical parts of the current Republic of Finland. There also seems to be a misguided effort in this undertaking to apply standards relating to current conditions, rather than allowing Wikipedia policy relating to historical conditions to persist.
The Kingdom of Sweden, the Russian Empire with the Grand Duchy of Finland, and the Republic of Finland all were separate sovereign states that during different historical periods held control over of the territory that today constitutes Finland. The kingdom, the empire and the republic are and were separate. If this has not been clear let me state that the counties, the governorates and the provinces are and were separate for that very reason.
Just as it can be said that there is an unbroken tradition in the history of Finland, regardless of what state or government has held control over it, so should the traditions in the country's regional histories also be accounted for. The County of Åbo and Björneborg, the Governorate of Åbo-Björneborg and the Province of Turku and Pori were all separate subdivisions and parts of separate states, but I would welcome seeing an integrated History of Turku and Pori covering all three periods from the first half of the 17th century to the late 20th century.
It has been mentioned that the distinction being made here would somehow be artificial, and to some changes in state or government may seem illusory, but to the people who experienced what it was like to be conscripted into the Royal Swedish Army, or lived under the policies of Russification by the authorities in the Grand Duchy, it would certainly have seemed quite material at the time. The accountability of the current provincial governors to the democratically elected Government of the Republic of Finland is much preferable to having governors that once answered to Russian Tsars or Swedish Kings. The assertion that provincial authorities established by the Republic of Finland, would somehow eclipse authorities existing prior to it's own establishment is absurd, and belongs in the realm of constitutional fiction. -- Domino theory ( talk) 10:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you just haven't figured out the languages.
Provinces of Finland, 18th Century-2008, always been called:
Swedish:Län
Finnish:Lääni
Russian:Guberniya (губерний)
Swedish has been the official language of Finland (including Grand Duchy) always. Russian was official in the grand duchy until 1863, and Finnish became official in 1883. The names for the provinces of Finland are still the same. Nothing has changed in the names. Nothing has changed in the borders (that has something to do with separate states, other changes yes). Nothing in coat of arms. What makes you think separate state means the subdivisions have to be different? That's exactly what did not change, that's what makes Finland Finland today. This distinction can't be even made in Finnish, Russian or Swedish. It's just misuse of different translations into English. --
Pudeo
⺮
14:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
One user has unilaterally claimed that there is consensus on this talk page and has started to change and redirect articles without any material consent, or consensus being achieved. I maintain that consensus has not been achieved, quite the contrary.
When action is being taken by a single user not agreeing to the content of a created article, and as matters of discussion has not been resolved, I do not feel that such action is being taken as a measure to contribute with a productive effort, or even in a cooperative spirit. Therefor this may be a case when an external dispute resolution effort is needed.
As the dispute concerns several parameters it would seem like a good idea to tentatively agree upon the points a dispute resolution needs to address. Add your name under a heading to establish whether there is an actual dispute on the matter, in order to rule out the possibilities for differences of opinion that may not exist. Remember this is not a vote.
When describing the conditions for the Grand Duchy of Finland and it's subdivisions, what standards should be used:
Which English language term is the most appropriate to translate the name губе́рния (guberniya), län, lääni for the Grand Duchy of Finland (1809-1918):
Which is the best way to describe the history of the subnational entities of the Kingdom of Sweden, the Grand Duchy of Finland as part of the Russian Empire, and the Republic of Finland:
If you feel that there may be additional areas where a dispute may needs to be resolved, state what you would like to add below. -- Domino theory ( talk) 20:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
So Dominy theory, are you just ignoring all arguments and concensus here until no-one would care? Well, it won't work. :) In other words, your reply would be appreciated. It's been over a month now since the "voting", and it was September when this was first brought up.. -- Pudeo ⺮ 16:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Apparently he just quitted editing Wikipedia, but before doing so he reverted all my edits on these articles. I'm fed up with this kind of behavior. I will redo the edits some time soon, but you can help as well. -- Pudeo ⺮ 20:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
...of showing a silent map here ? Not that helpful. -- 129.187.244.19 ( talk) 09:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
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First time ever I heard them called "governorates". In all languages they are called counties, and articles of them already exist as current day Provinces of Finland (rest were disbanded in 1997) and Historical provinces of Finland are the same. Yes, the title "County lord" was changed to "governer" in 1837 (not 1809), but it never changed the other terminology. Other than that, since the articles cover the "governorate" till 1917, it is erroneus to call Governorate of Uleåborg Uleåborg (it is Oulu) because Finnish had been an official language for 50 years by then and most likely over 95 % of the "governorate" spoke Finnish as native language (today only ~200 of Swedish speakers live in 130,000 people's Oulu) and breaks the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland and Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Finland guidelines. -- Pudeo ⺮ 18:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
In Finnish and Swedish they are called län, lääni which is province (or region) today. Russian language was the official language of the duchy only for a while, and had equal status. Still the article Guberniya says it can be translated as province as well, so is there any reason not to move this article to Provinces of the Grand Duchy of Finland or somehow merge with Historical provinces of Finland or current provinces of Finland? ie. Oulu Province is the same as the "Uleåborg Governorate" here. Why not just mention it in the history section there? -- Pudeo ⺮ 18:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, to anyone living in a city were languages other than Finnish are rarely or ever spoken it may be unavoidable not to Finnisize whenever, or whatever is translated into English, but that is just not how Wikipedia works. Not by policy, guideline nor convention.
For the second part, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, as some of what you say may seem to discourage against adding content to Wikipedia or even being against writing new articles. I'm quite sure that is not your intention, but please feel free to elaborate. Cheers, -- Domino theory ( talk) 20:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
As Colchichum has added the mergeto-template to the articles, I fully support the move on all cases. Perhaps the names should be changed to "Turku and Pori Province" from "Province of" to be consistent. That is, after the move later maybe. -- Pudeo ⺮ 17:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I can't help but wonder if what is being professed here is a desire to post-facto create what once were Governorates of the Russian Empire, and even Counties of the Kingdom of Sweden, into provinces as historical parts of the current Republic of Finland. There also seems to be a misguided effort in this undertaking to apply standards relating to current conditions, rather than allowing Wikipedia policy relating to historical conditions to persist.
The Kingdom of Sweden, the Russian Empire with the Grand Duchy of Finland, and the Republic of Finland all were separate sovereign states that during different historical periods held control over of the territory that today constitutes Finland. The kingdom, the empire and the republic are and were separate. If this has not been clear let me state that the counties, the governorates and the provinces are and were separate for that very reason.
Just as it can be said that there is an unbroken tradition in the history of Finland, regardless of what state or government has held control over it, so should the traditions in the country's regional histories also be accounted for. The County of Åbo and Björneborg, the Governorate of Åbo-Björneborg and the Province of Turku and Pori were all separate subdivisions and parts of separate states, but I would welcome seeing an integrated History of Turku and Pori covering all three periods from the first half of the 17th century to the late 20th century.
It has been mentioned that the distinction being made here would somehow be artificial, and to some changes in state or government may seem illusory, but to the people who experienced what it was like to be conscripted into the Royal Swedish Army, or lived under the policies of Russification by the authorities in the Grand Duchy, it would certainly have seemed quite material at the time. The accountability of the current provincial governors to the democratically elected Government of the Republic of Finland is much preferable to having governors that once answered to Russian Tsars or Swedish Kings. The assertion that provincial authorities established by the Republic of Finland, would somehow eclipse authorities existing prior to it's own establishment is absurd, and belongs in the realm of constitutional fiction. -- Domino theory ( talk) 10:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you just haven't figured out the languages.
Provinces of Finland, 18th Century-2008, always been called:
Swedish:Län
Finnish:Lääni
Russian:Guberniya (губерний)
Swedish has been the official language of Finland (including Grand Duchy) always. Russian was official in the grand duchy until 1863, and Finnish became official in 1883. The names for the provinces of Finland are still the same. Nothing has changed in the names. Nothing has changed in the borders (that has something to do with separate states, other changes yes). Nothing in coat of arms. What makes you think separate state means the subdivisions have to be different? That's exactly what did not change, that's what makes Finland Finland today. This distinction can't be even made in Finnish, Russian or Swedish. It's just misuse of different translations into English. --
Pudeo
⺮
14:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
One user has unilaterally claimed that there is consensus on this talk page and has started to change and redirect articles without any material consent, or consensus being achieved. I maintain that consensus has not been achieved, quite the contrary.
When action is being taken by a single user not agreeing to the content of a created article, and as matters of discussion has not been resolved, I do not feel that such action is being taken as a measure to contribute with a productive effort, or even in a cooperative spirit. Therefor this may be a case when an external dispute resolution effort is needed.
As the dispute concerns several parameters it would seem like a good idea to tentatively agree upon the points a dispute resolution needs to address. Add your name under a heading to establish whether there is an actual dispute on the matter, in order to rule out the possibilities for differences of opinion that may not exist. Remember this is not a vote.
When describing the conditions for the Grand Duchy of Finland and it's subdivisions, what standards should be used:
Which English language term is the most appropriate to translate the name губе́рния (guberniya), län, lääni for the Grand Duchy of Finland (1809-1918):
Which is the best way to describe the history of the subnational entities of the Kingdom of Sweden, the Grand Duchy of Finland as part of the Russian Empire, and the Republic of Finland:
If you feel that there may be additional areas where a dispute may needs to be resolved, state what you would like to add below. -- Domino theory ( talk) 20:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
So Dominy theory, are you just ignoring all arguments and concensus here until no-one would care? Well, it won't work. :) In other words, your reply would be appreciated. It's been over a month now since the "voting", and it was September when this was first brought up.. -- Pudeo ⺮ 16:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Apparently he just quitted editing Wikipedia, but before doing so he reverted all my edits on these articles. I'm fed up with this kind of behavior. I will redo the edits some time soon, but you can help as well. -- Pudeo ⺮ 20:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
...of showing a silent map here ? Not that helpful. -- 129.187.244.19 ( talk) 09:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)