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A good faith edit by @ Edl-irishboy added all the Ministers of State announced yesterday to this page, under the heading which was then in place Ministers of State attending cabinet. As only three of the MoS attend cabinet, I've edited the page to correct for this. But it brings me to a discussion which I had planned to reinstigate. This is effectively relisting of a proposal I made last year. Now with particular focus on the pages, I hope it might prompt more discussion. I propose that in all instances, back to Parliamentary Secretaries of the 3rd Dáil, the lists of junior ministers would appear on the relevant Government page. This is done on Wikipedia in a number of other jurisdictions, e.g. Second Johnson ministry, Second Philippe government, Third Rutte cabinet, Fourth Merkel cabinet. I would propose having the table of Ministers of State below that of the table of Members of the Government, clearly indicating in the text that they are legally distinct group. I would use the table with full information on MoS responsibilities and departments, as not on Ministers of State of the 33rd Dáil. To summarise the reasons:
Possible models for this would be:
Even if we opt to keep governments within the same Dáil on the same page, I don't think it's unwieldily long, given the nature of such pages. Again, see the detail on Second Johnson ministry. These pages should have as much relevant information to the government as is reasonable. Given that some of these pages include additional information, such as events within the government, I'd certainly contend that Ministers of State are relevant. – Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 09:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
As mentioned in the previous discussion, I previously made the case for organising these pages by Government, rather than within Dáil. On that basis, there would be two separate pages for the 2016 to 2020 period, 30th Government of Ireland and 31st Government of Ireland, and if all goes according to the agreement between the current parties, we'd have the same for this Dáil period, one for 2020–22, and one for 2022–25. At the moment, when there are two separate governments within the same Dáil period, the pages work as one on top of the other, each with separate infoboxes, where it's the norm to have just one infobox per page, and at the very top of the page. Fairly much all other countries have their lists of ministers separated according to government, rather than legislative terms (e.g. Castex government First Johnson ministry, see the various examples on Template:EU governments, as they are distinct entities. In lists, tables ( Taoiseach, Irish heads of government since 1919, Irish cabinets since 1919, List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland and templates ( Template:Governments of Ireland, we link them separately. We even link them within the same page, from within the infoboxes, linking to a government further below or above. Per the last point in WP:DONOTFIXIT, "If editors persistently use a redirect instead of an article title, it may be that the article needs to be moved rather than the redirect changed. As such the systematic "fixing of redirects" may eradicate useful information which can be used to help decide on the "best" article title." There's something in the fact that we do see the merit in linking governments by cabinet rather than Dáil.
Having separate pages reflects their legal distinctiveness, and can also reflect the reality from time to time. This year was an unusual one, and I made the case before it happened, but we had the 31st government, listed on Government of the 32nd Dáil, governing and even legislating a fair bit into this 33rd Dáil. We could get away with fewer subheading levels too, which we get with 23rd Government of Ireland and 24th Government of Ireland.
I don't think it's an issue that have Executive Council from 1922 and then have Governments from 1937. We have similar changes in titles there and at other periods of Irish history. We don't have any templates dependent on a consistent naming pattern. There greater difficulty is with the revolutionary period. Those three could be left as they are, as we already have First Dáil, Second Dáil and Third Dáil articles, in a way we don't have for others, and there's enough to discuss there on those terms. Although arguably, calling either of the Provisional Governments governments of any Dáil is a misnomer, as they weren't approved by the Dáil. My previous proposal had been to lists those governments on the pages of Ministry of Dáil Éireann and Provisional Government of Ireland (1922). But we probably better deciding if this is worthwhile at all first, and then considering the revolutionary period.
There is already one vote against, when I proposed this in in July 2018, and a further suggestion from another contributor in favour in August 2018, in the context of developing the narrative parts of these governments. That's a bigger project, which needs more references so that major events are chosen objectively and described fairly. I've done a bit of that by adding references to referendums, and some major foreign policy developments. I think there's a decent argument if we're doing more of that to have them on separate pages. For example, even within the coalition government of 1989-92, we can describe O'Malley's relationship with Haughey qutie differently to those with Reynolds, and the reasons for the two governments' ultimate demise. A similar case can be made with other governments.
I'm not going to formally propose moving them at this stage, partly because I've just completed a series of moves that involved a bit of work. But if at any stage between now and December 2022, when I think the case for this might become more apparent when we have a second government again, and anyone else sees merit in having this discussion, I have the arguments here. — Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 07:16, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I propose splitting this page into 32nd Government of Ireland and 33rd Government of Ireland, and if agreed, to similarly split or move pages from 1922 to be named for government number rather than Dáil. I've given the reasons above in a notice when the coalition was formed. I'll summarise these as:
I appreciate that Spleodrach may argue that I've made this case before, both directly in 2018 and indirectly, such as the above discussion on merging Ministers of State. However, even in the years since, these pages have undergone further development, such as including a vote for Taoiseach box in all cases, information about votes of confidence, and other relevant information, so that the case for this being a WP:CONTENTSPLIT is stronger. As to a consistent naming (Executive Council vs Government), we already have an inconsistency between Government of the Nth Dáil and Nth Government of Ireland since the split of Government of the 27th Dáil into 23rd Government of Ireland and 24th Government of Ireland, as proposed by jnestorius. If there's an inconsistency, better that it reflect a change in the constitution in 1937 than the sufficiency of change in a coalition. As to the work involved, from experience with similar moves, including of the Ministers of State, and changes in organisation of constituencies, it can be done relatively efficiently (e.g., using WP:AWB.
One argument I'd see against is that this is the same coalition, subject to the same programme for government, and grouping them on the same page reflects that. Even at that, given the structural issues I've discussed, I think the balance of the argument favours a split, while clearly using the introductory text to link back to the previous government. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 07:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like there's a consensus, but to summarise my case here: my argument for a split isn't about the extent of the changes on this occasion, but that it's reasonable for an encyclopedia to use official distinctions of a new government as when to start a new page, even if the media will simply call it a reshuffle. It also means that anyone clicking a link for the current government will clearly see the current Taoiseach in the infobox, as per this mock-up. Further, that since these pages have developed beyond a mere list of names of ministers, the page on any of these occasions (whether this year, 2017, 2008, or so on) has a doubled structure, with a natural split at the change of Taoiseach, with the second government quite far down, a fresh infobox halfway through the page. As to the name change in 1937, I don't see any harm in the different constitutional basis being recognised. If the consensus is not to split this and similar (and rename other to align), the distinction is of course worth maintaining through section redirects. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 08:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
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A good faith edit by @ Edl-irishboy added all the Ministers of State announced yesterday to this page, under the heading which was then in place Ministers of State attending cabinet. As only three of the MoS attend cabinet, I've edited the page to correct for this. But it brings me to a discussion which I had planned to reinstigate. This is effectively relisting of a proposal I made last year. Now with particular focus on the pages, I hope it might prompt more discussion. I propose that in all instances, back to Parliamentary Secretaries of the 3rd Dáil, the lists of junior ministers would appear on the relevant Government page. This is done on Wikipedia in a number of other jurisdictions, e.g. Second Johnson ministry, Second Philippe government, Third Rutte cabinet, Fourth Merkel cabinet. I would propose having the table of Ministers of State below that of the table of Members of the Government, clearly indicating in the text that they are legally distinct group. I would use the table with full information on MoS responsibilities and departments, as not on Ministers of State of the 33rd Dáil. To summarise the reasons:
Possible models for this would be:
Even if we opt to keep governments within the same Dáil on the same page, I don't think it's unwieldily long, given the nature of such pages. Again, see the detail on Second Johnson ministry. These pages should have as much relevant information to the government as is reasonable. Given that some of these pages include additional information, such as events within the government, I'd certainly contend that Ministers of State are relevant. – Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 09:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
As mentioned in the previous discussion, I previously made the case for organising these pages by Government, rather than within Dáil. On that basis, there would be two separate pages for the 2016 to 2020 period, 30th Government of Ireland and 31st Government of Ireland, and if all goes according to the agreement between the current parties, we'd have the same for this Dáil period, one for 2020–22, and one for 2022–25. At the moment, when there are two separate governments within the same Dáil period, the pages work as one on top of the other, each with separate infoboxes, where it's the norm to have just one infobox per page, and at the very top of the page. Fairly much all other countries have their lists of ministers separated according to government, rather than legislative terms (e.g. Castex government First Johnson ministry, see the various examples on Template:EU governments, as they are distinct entities. In lists, tables ( Taoiseach, Irish heads of government since 1919, Irish cabinets since 1919, List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland and templates ( Template:Governments of Ireland, we link them separately. We even link them within the same page, from within the infoboxes, linking to a government further below or above. Per the last point in WP:DONOTFIXIT, "If editors persistently use a redirect instead of an article title, it may be that the article needs to be moved rather than the redirect changed. As such the systematic "fixing of redirects" may eradicate useful information which can be used to help decide on the "best" article title." There's something in the fact that we do see the merit in linking governments by cabinet rather than Dáil.
Having separate pages reflects their legal distinctiveness, and can also reflect the reality from time to time. This year was an unusual one, and I made the case before it happened, but we had the 31st government, listed on Government of the 32nd Dáil, governing and even legislating a fair bit into this 33rd Dáil. We could get away with fewer subheading levels too, which we get with 23rd Government of Ireland and 24th Government of Ireland.
I don't think it's an issue that have Executive Council from 1922 and then have Governments from 1937. We have similar changes in titles there and at other periods of Irish history. We don't have any templates dependent on a consistent naming pattern. There greater difficulty is with the revolutionary period. Those three could be left as they are, as we already have First Dáil, Second Dáil and Third Dáil articles, in a way we don't have for others, and there's enough to discuss there on those terms. Although arguably, calling either of the Provisional Governments governments of any Dáil is a misnomer, as they weren't approved by the Dáil. My previous proposal had been to lists those governments on the pages of Ministry of Dáil Éireann and Provisional Government of Ireland (1922). But we probably better deciding if this is worthwhile at all first, and then considering the revolutionary period.
There is already one vote against, when I proposed this in in July 2018, and a further suggestion from another contributor in favour in August 2018, in the context of developing the narrative parts of these governments. That's a bigger project, which needs more references so that major events are chosen objectively and described fairly. I've done a bit of that by adding references to referendums, and some major foreign policy developments. I think there's a decent argument if we're doing more of that to have them on separate pages. For example, even within the coalition government of 1989-92, we can describe O'Malley's relationship with Haughey qutie differently to those with Reynolds, and the reasons for the two governments' ultimate demise. A similar case can be made with other governments.
I'm not going to formally propose moving them at this stage, partly because I've just completed a series of moves that involved a bit of work. But if at any stage between now and December 2022, when I think the case for this might become more apparent when we have a second government again, and anyone else sees merit in having this discussion, I have the arguments here. — Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 07:16, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I propose splitting this page into 32nd Government of Ireland and 33rd Government of Ireland, and if agreed, to similarly split or move pages from 1922 to be named for government number rather than Dáil. I've given the reasons above in a notice when the coalition was formed. I'll summarise these as:
I appreciate that Spleodrach may argue that I've made this case before, both directly in 2018 and indirectly, such as the above discussion on merging Ministers of State. However, even in the years since, these pages have undergone further development, such as including a vote for Taoiseach box in all cases, information about votes of confidence, and other relevant information, so that the case for this being a WP:CONTENTSPLIT is stronger. As to a consistent naming (Executive Council vs Government), we already have an inconsistency between Government of the Nth Dáil and Nth Government of Ireland since the split of Government of the 27th Dáil into 23rd Government of Ireland and 24th Government of Ireland, as proposed by jnestorius. If there's an inconsistency, better that it reflect a change in the constitution in 1937 than the sufficiency of change in a coalition. As to the work involved, from experience with similar moves, including of the Ministers of State, and changes in organisation of constituencies, it can be done relatively efficiently (e.g., using WP:AWB.
One argument I'd see against is that this is the same coalition, subject to the same programme for government, and grouping them on the same page reflects that. Even at that, given the structural issues I've discussed, I think the balance of the argument favours a split, while clearly using the introductory text to link back to the previous government. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 07:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like there's a consensus, but to summarise my case here: my argument for a split isn't about the extent of the changes on this occasion, but that it's reasonable for an encyclopedia to use official distinctions of a new government as when to start a new page, even if the media will simply call it a reshuffle. It also means that anyone clicking a link for the current government will clearly see the current Taoiseach in the infobox, as per this mock-up. Further, that since these pages have developed beyond a mere list of names of ministers, the page on any of these occasions (whether this year, 2017, 2008, or so on) has a doubled structure, with a natural split at the change of Taoiseach, with the second government quite far down, a fresh infobox halfway through the page. As to the name change in 1937, I don't see any harm in the different constitutional basis being recognised. If the consensus is not to split this and similar (and rename other to align), the distinction is of course worth maintaining through section redirects. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 08:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)