This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
So far nobody has provided verifiable sources for Adam's claims. I see a lot of hand-waving, I see a lot of abuse, I see a lot of bluster, but I do not see any checkable sources. The best we have are a couple of constitutional authorities supporting the "Queen as sole head of state" view, a minority position.
The article is incorrect in claiming the question of who is Australia's head of state is a matter of convention. I have shown that there are three different views, each supported by multiple informed opinions.
The article is incorrect in claiming the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. This is Adam's opinion, unsupported by any of the numerous biographies ar reports of the debates during the time our Constitution was drafted.
Adam's third claim, that most authorities see the Queen as head of state has been modified to read that it is a traditional view. I'll accept this, but it needs to be made clear that this is either an outmoded view or the view of the general people rather than informed opinion.
At this point, I see no problem in removing Adam's statements of opinion on the grounds that despite a lot of discussion, no sources have been provided. Do you have a problem with this? Skyring 09:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So what is Skyring's explanation for the fact that the Constitution does not specify who Australia's head of state was to be? I point out that the Constitution does not provide for the offices of Prime Minister or Speaker of the House, either, and for the same reason - because Griffith simply assumed the framework of the Westminster Parliamentary system, including the Queen as head of state. It was only the fact that Australia was to be a federation that made a written constitution necessary at all (New Zealand didn't have a constitution at all until recently, because they simply copied the pure Westminister model.) My "source" for these propositions is the Constitution itself. Most Constitutions provide for a head of state. Australia's does not, and it is the historian's job to explain and interpret that fact in the light of his knowledge about the period in which it was written, which is what I have done in the paragraph under discussion. Adam 21:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Despite User:El_C's dogged shilling for Adam, his source for Adam's "axiomatic" claim was useless. I haven't seen anyone provide a verifiable source for this statement. On the chance that I missed it, could someone please provide a verifiable source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out.. If it cannot be sourced, it doesn't belong in the article. Skyring 23:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You just can't touch a keyboard without resorting to misrepresentation, can you? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say the term "head of state" appears in other constitutions, I said "Most Constitutions provide for a head of state." And they do. The US Constitution provides for a president, for example. The question therefore is, why doesn't the Australian Constitution provide for a head of state? My answer is as given in the article. What's yours? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(Yes yes I know I am arguing with him again when I said he should be ignored. I can't help myself. Adam 00:38, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC))
Let the record show that Skyring has no answer to my question other than his usual obfuscation. Adam 03:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
True but irrelevant. See below. Adam 00:22, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering, but is it definitely true that the governmental arrangements of Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Belize, Jamaica, the Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Grenada are more like those of Canada than they are like those of Australia? john k 00:26, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how much more powerful is the Queen of Canada than the Queen of Australia? john k 00:26, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All very interesting no doubt, but totally irrelevant. Adam 02:15, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Do not constantly ask me to "be fair" while simultaneously calling me a shill, which I gather is something not very nice. Adam 03:08, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Only Skyring could take the fact that everyone participating in this discussion agrees with me and not with him and use this as evidence to accuse me of some sort of underhand tactic. Adam 04:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If Skyring doesn't like robust debate, I suggest (as I have done before) that he go and jerk off somewhere else. Adam 04:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We have had this discussion half a dozen times already, but I will state my position on this one more time. I take the following propositions as axiomatic, and thus not requiring "sources":
Adam 22:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is a shilling? Adam 01:20, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now I know what a shill is, so I suppose Skyring can claim to have improved my knowledge to that extent. Otherwise his contribution is no more than his usual stupid, offensive and destructive nonsense. Adam 01:44, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I described Skyring's behaviour on this page as stupid, offensive and destructive. I don't consider this to be personal abuse (I could show you some personal abuse if you like). They are statements of fact, phrased in the most moderate language possible. Adam 05:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
don't think you could be a bit more blatant about your shilling?
is an inapproriate statement whose meaning he could have rephrased to avoid being offensive. I suspect he elects to conduct himself in this way in order to divert attention from the dismal absence of verifiable sources for his partisan idée fixe.
El_C 06:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)There seems to be complete confusion here regarding what a head of state is. A head of state may dissolve parliament, appoint governments, etc but because someone does that does not make them a head of state, because those roles can be and were fulfilled by people who most definitely were not heads of state - eg, colonial governors, etc. A head of state's principal function is to be legal embodiment of the state in all diplomatic discourse on the international inter-state level. A head of state in their name appoints diplomats, signs Letters of Credence, receives Letters of Recall, signs treaties or has it done in their name. They are the defining powers and functions of a head of state. If they do that, they are a head of state. If they don't, they aren't. In Seanad Éireann during the debate on the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 then Irish Taoiseach (prime minister) and former Attorney-General John A. Costello stated that as those functions were carried out by King George VI as King of Ireland between 1937 and 1949, not withstanding the fact that the President of Ireland was Ireland's first citizen, the king was actually the head of state. When under the RoI Act as implemented in April 1949 those powers were given to the President of Ireland he at that point became head of state.
In reality the GG of Australia is not and cannot be the Australian head of state, as he fulfils none of these functions. Australia in diplomatic functions is represented by, and embodied by, the Queen of Australia, or the Queen in Australia as she technically was before the 1970s. Credentials are issued in the name of the Q, not the GG. Treaties are signed in the name of the Queen. In a legal sense, she is Australia on the world diplomatic stage. (That is why, when some years ago the Governor-General visited Ireland and had a state dinner provided for him by the President of Ireland, the guests there - I was one - raised our glasses and proposed a toast to '"The Queen of Australia" and why the Governor-General toasted "The President of Ireland". They were equated as the heads of state of Australia and Ireland respectively. The Governor-General was not toasted as the equivalent to the Irish head of state, because unambiguously he wasn't. ndeed treating a governor-general as a head of state is seen as a major diplomatic faux pas, a faux pas George Bush made once. (But then his dork of a brother in Florida once thought the Spanish 'President of the Government' (prime minister) was 'President of the Spanish Republic', which came as a bit of a surprise to King Juan Carlos of Spain!!!
The Governor-General is simply the Australian head of state's local representative to carry out practical constitutional functions as she does not reside in Australia and so would not be available to do that. The debate during the referendum on the republic was about creating a head of state, by merging the internal powers, functions and duties of the Governor-General with the head of state functions of the Queen, with the new office being head of state. In theory Australia could tomorrow decide to give the head of state functions to the Governor-General. Canada did at one stage propose doing the same to the Canadian Governor General, with the Queen only exercising those powers and being head of state when she was in Canada. But the idea was dropped and the Governor General was left as representative of the head of state, not the head of state themselves. FearÉIREANN (talk) 23:37, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Re the following sentence: "Following Australia's independence from the United Kingdom as a result of the Statute of Westminster, the Queen was given the title Queen of Australia, confirming her status as Australia's head of state." This seems to suggest that the latter followed as an immediate consequence of the former. I understood the Statute of Westminster was adopted in Australia in the 1930s or 1940s, but the title Queen of Australia was not created until the Whitlam era (1973 from memory). Can anybody shed any light? JackofOz 04:55, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree there is a problem with that sentence, despite my recent edit. "Following" doesn't necessary mean "immediately following," but it could be read that way. The Royal Styles and Titles Act of 1973 was a long-term consequence of the Statute of Westminster Adoption Act of (from memory) 1942. This could be made clearer, but this is not an article about Australian constitutional history and we should not go into too much detail. Adam 05:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The sentence now says: "Australia became independent from the United Kingdom following adoption of the Statute of Westminster. Recognising this, the Australian Parliament in 1973 gave the Queen the title Queen of Australia, thus confirming her status as Australia's head of state." The 1953 Royal Style and Title did not use the expression "Queen of Australia" and it was certainly not the intention then to create a separate Australian monarchy. This is all, however, quite irrelevant to the topic of this article. Adam 06:59, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He doesn't need to explain his edits, since he has already burdened us with his crank theories half-a-dozen times. What he needs to do is to accept that he has no support for those theories among the group of editors currently working on this article and desist from his arrogant, petulant, vain campaign to impose his views on everybody else by a process of exhaustion. Adam 09:26, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A new editor came on board last night - no[,] not me as a sockpuppet - and Adam immediately reverted without discussion.
(Please do not modify this excerpt and/or excerpt space)
El_C 12:01, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did not for a moment think that 144.138.159.214 was a Skyring sockpuppet. I deleted his or her edits because they were not relevant to this article, which is not an article about republicanism or the 1999 referendum.
Adam 12:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore Skyring's changes were not "minor" as he falsely claims. They were major changes, yet another attempt to impose his crank POV on this article. If Skyring persist in this arrogant disregard for the majority position, I will ask to have this article protected. Adam 13:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why does Skyring bother telling such a pathetic lie when anyone who looks at the edit history can see how major and how tendentious his edit was? I repeat that if he attempts again to impose this edit on the article I will ask to have it protected from him. Adam 22:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps Skyring is delusional rather than dishonest. If this is the case I apologise, since I suppose he is not responsible for his delusional state. In case anyone is remotely interested in this bizarre nonsense, the correct edit history is as follows:
Adam 23:23, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You should set up as a comedian, Adam! Anyone who wishes to see the truth may go here to see who put in the major edit and use the "Newer edit" links to follow the changes. A particularly useful feature of Wikipedia. As has been pointed out, this editor hasn't defended his changes, so I'm not going to bother. We'll work through the required changes point by point. Pete 00:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This edit [3] by Skyring claims it is clarifying the referendum proposals (it does no such thing, it's just a POV rephrasing of the result), and "fixing" the red ACM link, when it's sneaking an external one into the article. The way to fix the link is by creating the article; it's a basic wiki principal to include red links so that users can do just that. And a movement that calls itself the Australian Republican Movement can fairly safely be described as a movement campaigning for an Australian republic. Lacrimosus 01:33, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The referendum wasn't defeated. The proposals were. The preceding sentences in the same paragraph refer to proposals. I shouldn't think that this was contentious to refer to the proposals or referendum proposals. that's a clarification. I reinstated the external link because it referred to something. Yours didn't. But feel free to show me a link to this "basic wiki principal". And no, I don't accept that the ARM is campaigning for a republic. We already have as much of a republic as we can possibly get, given our republican sytem of government. What the ARM is really campaigning for is the removal of the monarchy, and nobody disputes that. Pete 01:42, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Skyring can spin this any way he wants. His opinionated edits will continue to be reverted. Adam 02:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I find it absurd that, after what I said here, Skyring persists in his accusation that Adam is committed to explain himself for reverting User:144.138.159.214. As I said (and clearly this has not registred, and so there is the need for a pointless reiteration), it is User:144.138.159.214 who should provide an explanation for having changed large portion of consensus text, not those who revert him/her back into the version overwhelmingly supported by all editors here, save Skyring (and the elusive User:144.138.159.214). As for the minor error that was retained in the process, it is of little consequence. El_C 23:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I recommend commenting out the parts of the article you dont like rather than reverting. Yust put it in <!-- -->. Anythng in this will not be avalible in the article but will be avalible in source. I also recomend you explain eaxh other what you not like and what you suggest. Use the folowing as you see it.
Example:
Page originaly has "Green is good."
<!-- No my favorite color is blue. - Sig
Green is good.
-->
Hope this helps! -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also suggest refraining from reverting. Wikipedia is an everybody can contribute medium. We are a community, by definition plural. What a POV is always debatible as often there are multiple perspectives to things. No one can declare ownership to any article. Everything you present here can be eddited. I kindly request that all parties honor the way we do things on wikipedia. You both want to contribute to wikipedia, you will be contributing more if you work together rather than against each other. Best practice is to forget old hostilities and start from scratch. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:07, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course not - Cookcat is a well-known Wikicrank. Adam 06:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
So far nobody has provided verifiable sources for Adam's claims. I see a lot of hand-waving, I see a lot of abuse, I see a lot of bluster, but I do not see any checkable sources. The best we have are a couple of constitutional authorities supporting the "Queen as sole head of state" view, a minority position.
The article is incorrect in claiming the question of who is Australia's head of state is a matter of convention. I have shown that there are three different views, each supported by multiple informed opinions.
The article is incorrect in claiming the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. This is Adam's opinion, unsupported by any of the numerous biographies ar reports of the debates during the time our Constitution was drafted.
Adam's third claim, that most authorities see the Queen as head of state has been modified to read that it is a traditional view. I'll accept this, but it needs to be made clear that this is either an outmoded view or the view of the general people rather than informed opinion.
At this point, I see no problem in removing Adam's statements of opinion on the grounds that despite a lot of discussion, no sources have been provided. Do you have a problem with this? Skyring 09:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So what is Skyring's explanation for the fact that the Constitution does not specify who Australia's head of state was to be? I point out that the Constitution does not provide for the offices of Prime Minister or Speaker of the House, either, and for the same reason - because Griffith simply assumed the framework of the Westminster Parliamentary system, including the Queen as head of state. It was only the fact that Australia was to be a federation that made a written constitution necessary at all (New Zealand didn't have a constitution at all until recently, because they simply copied the pure Westminister model.) My "source" for these propositions is the Constitution itself. Most Constitutions provide for a head of state. Australia's does not, and it is the historian's job to explain and interpret that fact in the light of his knowledge about the period in which it was written, which is what I have done in the paragraph under discussion. Adam 21:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Despite User:El_C's dogged shilling for Adam, his source for Adam's "axiomatic" claim was useless. I haven't seen anyone provide a verifiable source for this statement. On the chance that I missed it, could someone please provide a verifiable source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out.. If it cannot be sourced, it doesn't belong in the article. Skyring 23:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You just can't touch a keyboard without resorting to misrepresentation, can you? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say the term "head of state" appears in other constitutions, I said "Most Constitutions provide for a head of state." And they do. The US Constitution provides for a president, for example. The question therefore is, why doesn't the Australian Constitution provide for a head of state? My answer is as given in the article. What's yours? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(Yes yes I know I am arguing with him again when I said he should be ignored. I can't help myself. Adam 00:38, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC))
Let the record show that Skyring has no answer to my question other than his usual obfuscation. Adam 03:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
True but irrelevant. See below. Adam 00:22, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering, but is it definitely true that the governmental arrangements of Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Belize, Jamaica, the Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Grenada are more like those of Canada than they are like those of Australia? john k 00:26, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how much more powerful is the Queen of Canada than the Queen of Australia? john k 00:26, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All very interesting no doubt, but totally irrelevant. Adam 02:15, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Do not constantly ask me to "be fair" while simultaneously calling me a shill, which I gather is something not very nice. Adam 03:08, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Only Skyring could take the fact that everyone participating in this discussion agrees with me and not with him and use this as evidence to accuse me of some sort of underhand tactic. Adam 04:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If Skyring doesn't like robust debate, I suggest (as I have done before) that he go and jerk off somewhere else. Adam 04:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We have had this discussion half a dozen times already, but I will state my position on this one more time. I take the following propositions as axiomatic, and thus not requiring "sources":
Adam 22:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is a shilling? Adam 01:20, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now I know what a shill is, so I suppose Skyring can claim to have improved my knowledge to that extent. Otherwise his contribution is no more than his usual stupid, offensive and destructive nonsense. Adam 01:44, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I described Skyring's behaviour on this page as stupid, offensive and destructive. I don't consider this to be personal abuse (I could show you some personal abuse if you like). They are statements of fact, phrased in the most moderate language possible. Adam 05:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
don't think you could be a bit more blatant about your shilling?
is an inapproriate statement whose meaning he could have rephrased to avoid being offensive. I suspect he elects to conduct himself in this way in order to divert attention from the dismal absence of verifiable sources for his partisan idée fixe.
El_C 06:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)There seems to be complete confusion here regarding what a head of state is. A head of state may dissolve parliament, appoint governments, etc but because someone does that does not make them a head of state, because those roles can be and were fulfilled by people who most definitely were not heads of state - eg, colonial governors, etc. A head of state's principal function is to be legal embodiment of the state in all diplomatic discourse on the international inter-state level. A head of state in their name appoints diplomats, signs Letters of Credence, receives Letters of Recall, signs treaties or has it done in their name. They are the defining powers and functions of a head of state. If they do that, they are a head of state. If they don't, they aren't. In Seanad Éireann during the debate on the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 then Irish Taoiseach (prime minister) and former Attorney-General John A. Costello stated that as those functions were carried out by King George VI as King of Ireland between 1937 and 1949, not withstanding the fact that the President of Ireland was Ireland's first citizen, the king was actually the head of state. When under the RoI Act as implemented in April 1949 those powers were given to the President of Ireland he at that point became head of state.
In reality the GG of Australia is not and cannot be the Australian head of state, as he fulfils none of these functions. Australia in diplomatic functions is represented by, and embodied by, the Queen of Australia, or the Queen in Australia as she technically was before the 1970s. Credentials are issued in the name of the Q, not the GG. Treaties are signed in the name of the Queen. In a legal sense, she is Australia on the world diplomatic stage. (That is why, when some years ago the Governor-General visited Ireland and had a state dinner provided for him by the President of Ireland, the guests there - I was one - raised our glasses and proposed a toast to '"The Queen of Australia" and why the Governor-General toasted "The President of Ireland". They were equated as the heads of state of Australia and Ireland respectively. The Governor-General was not toasted as the equivalent to the Irish head of state, because unambiguously he wasn't. ndeed treating a governor-general as a head of state is seen as a major diplomatic faux pas, a faux pas George Bush made once. (But then his dork of a brother in Florida once thought the Spanish 'President of the Government' (prime minister) was 'President of the Spanish Republic', which came as a bit of a surprise to King Juan Carlos of Spain!!!
The Governor-General is simply the Australian head of state's local representative to carry out practical constitutional functions as she does not reside in Australia and so would not be available to do that. The debate during the referendum on the republic was about creating a head of state, by merging the internal powers, functions and duties of the Governor-General with the head of state functions of the Queen, with the new office being head of state. In theory Australia could tomorrow decide to give the head of state functions to the Governor-General. Canada did at one stage propose doing the same to the Canadian Governor General, with the Queen only exercising those powers and being head of state when she was in Canada. But the idea was dropped and the Governor General was left as representative of the head of state, not the head of state themselves. FearÉIREANN (talk) 23:37, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Re the following sentence: "Following Australia's independence from the United Kingdom as a result of the Statute of Westminster, the Queen was given the title Queen of Australia, confirming her status as Australia's head of state." This seems to suggest that the latter followed as an immediate consequence of the former. I understood the Statute of Westminster was adopted in Australia in the 1930s or 1940s, but the title Queen of Australia was not created until the Whitlam era (1973 from memory). Can anybody shed any light? JackofOz 04:55, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree there is a problem with that sentence, despite my recent edit. "Following" doesn't necessary mean "immediately following," but it could be read that way. The Royal Styles and Titles Act of 1973 was a long-term consequence of the Statute of Westminster Adoption Act of (from memory) 1942. This could be made clearer, but this is not an article about Australian constitutional history and we should not go into too much detail. Adam 05:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The sentence now says: "Australia became independent from the United Kingdom following adoption of the Statute of Westminster. Recognising this, the Australian Parliament in 1973 gave the Queen the title Queen of Australia, thus confirming her status as Australia's head of state." The 1953 Royal Style and Title did not use the expression "Queen of Australia" and it was certainly not the intention then to create a separate Australian monarchy. This is all, however, quite irrelevant to the topic of this article. Adam 06:59, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He doesn't need to explain his edits, since he has already burdened us with his crank theories half-a-dozen times. What he needs to do is to accept that he has no support for those theories among the group of editors currently working on this article and desist from his arrogant, petulant, vain campaign to impose his views on everybody else by a process of exhaustion. Adam 09:26, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A new editor came on board last night - no[,] not me as a sockpuppet - and Adam immediately reverted without discussion.
(Please do not modify this excerpt and/or excerpt space)
El_C 12:01, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did not for a moment think that 144.138.159.214 was a Skyring sockpuppet. I deleted his or her edits because they were not relevant to this article, which is not an article about republicanism or the 1999 referendum.
Adam 12:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore Skyring's changes were not "minor" as he falsely claims. They were major changes, yet another attempt to impose his crank POV on this article. If Skyring persist in this arrogant disregard for the majority position, I will ask to have this article protected. Adam 13:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why does Skyring bother telling such a pathetic lie when anyone who looks at the edit history can see how major and how tendentious his edit was? I repeat that if he attempts again to impose this edit on the article I will ask to have it protected from him. Adam 22:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps Skyring is delusional rather than dishonest. If this is the case I apologise, since I suppose he is not responsible for his delusional state. In case anyone is remotely interested in this bizarre nonsense, the correct edit history is as follows:
Adam 23:23, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You should set up as a comedian, Adam! Anyone who wishes to see the truth may go here to see who put in the major edit and use the "Newer edit" links to follow the changes. A particularly useful feature of Wikipedia. As has been pointed out, this editor hasn't defended his changes, so I'm not going to bother. We'll work through the required changes point by point. Pete 00:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This edit [3] by Skyring claims it is clarifying the referendum proposals (it does no such thing, it's just a POV rephrasing of the result), and "fixing" the red ACM link, when it's sneaking an external one into the article. The way to fix the link is by creating the article; it's a basic wiki principal to include red links so that users can do just that. And a movement that calls itself the Australian Republican Movement can fairly safely be described as a movement campaigning for an Australian republic. Lacrimosus 01:33, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The referendum wasn't defeated. The proposals were. The preceding sentences in the same paragraph refer to proposals. I shouldn't think that this was contentious to refer to the proposals or referendum proposals. that's a clarification. I reinstated the external link because it referred to something. Yours didn't. But feel free to show me a link to this "basic wiki principal". And no, I don't accept that the ARM is campaigning for a republic. We already have as much of a republic as we can possibly get, given our republican sytem of government. What the ARM is really campaigning for is the removal of the monarchy, and nobody disputes that. Pete 01:42, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Skyring can spin this any way he wants. His opinionated edits will continue to be reverted. Adam 02:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I find it absurd that, after what I said here, Skyring persists in his accusation that Adam is committed to explain himself for reverting User:144.138.159.214. As I said (and clearly this has not registred, and so there is the need for a pointless reiteration), it is User:144.138.159.214 who should provide an explanation for having changed large portion of consensus text, not those who revert him/her back into the version overwhelmingly supported by all editors here, save Skyring (and the elusive User:144.138.159.214). As for the minor error that was retained in the process, it is of little consequence. El_C 23:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I recommend commenting out the parts of the article you dont like rather than reverting. Yust put it in <!-- -->. Anythng in this will not be avalible in the article but will be avalible in source. I also recomend you explain eaxh other what you not like and what you suggest. Use the folowing as you see it.
Example:
Page originaly has "Green is good."
<!-- No my favorite color is blue. - Sig
Green is good.
-->
Hope this helps! -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also suggest refraining from reverting. Wikipedia is an everybody can contribute medium. We are a community, by definition plural. What a POV is always debatible as often there are multiple perspectives to things. No one can declare ownership to any article. Everything you present here can be eddited. I kindly request that all parties honor the way we do things on wikipedia. You both want to contribute to wikipedia, you will be contributing more if you work together rather than against each other. Best practice is to forget old hostilities and start from scratch. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:07, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course not - Cookcat is a well-known Wikicrank. Adam 06:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)