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The map of Gotaland (Gothland in English) should be changed, it only present the modern region Gotaland, the old Gotaland was bigger and covered parts of west Svealand (Svitjod) like Värmland (Wermland) aand Gotland (The Goth Land) should be included into that map as well.
A good map, can be found here, maybe little small, http://www.scania.org/activities/council2/illrep/med/Bild02.JPG —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Then however if this place is the origin or not for Goths is another story, but proofs are that Goths has been living there since 400 A.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace ( talk • contribs) 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
The whole article should be deleted. It contains wrong and outdated information about the origins of the Goths and indeed about the nature of the Goths. The section about the physical appearance of the Goths reminds of Nazi-style racism. Again, this article has no scholarly value whatsoever and should be deleted.--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.5.187.42 ( talk) 07:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
--- This article is of no value. It contains plenty of false and outdated information. The stranges section is indeed the one about the physical appearance of the Goths. It may not be the intention of the author, but this clearly reminds of Nazi-style racism. The article needs to be rewritten completely. The current version is beyond repair and should be deleted urgently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfram2000 ( talk • contribs) 07:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Really, folks.
There is no proof whatsoever that the Goths came from Scandinavia. Every respected scholar agrees that they came from the Eurasian steppes north of the Black sea, migrated into Scandinavia and not from Scandinavia. This is only a nationalromantic view of the Swedes.
Read Stenroth, Ingmar "Myten om goterna Från antiken till romantiken". It is obvious.
Motörhead Remember Me (
talk)
15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above. The myth of the origin of the Goths can be tracked back through the ages to the Roman Empire. There is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that Goths originated from Swedish territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.192.10 ( talk) 18:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion so far: An anonymous German (82.35.89.68) wants to remove any mention of a Scandinavian origin, which he has tried to do at Heruls. He claims that the only Pre-Roman Iron Age Germanic culture that was Germanic with "certainty" was the German Jastorf culture. This is a claim which would make Germany the cradle of the Germanic tribes.
He names a number of German historians and a Dane, Christensen, as evidence against the possibility of a Gothic migration from Scandinavia. So far his evidence is restricted to naming scholars and to referring to German books.
Since he claims that his assertions are identical to modern scholarship. I present a list of scholarship which does not agree with him (the authors of Encyclopedia Britannica are not included) and interestingly, they include an author that he refers to:
Hooker (1996):
WHAT ARE THOSE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDINGS? References please! Motörhead Remember Me ( talk) 15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
A quote from Watkins at San José University:
Another quote from Linguistlist [4]:
Associati, 1994.
Another quote [5]:
A list of modern scholarship who support Jordanes, from Linguistlist [6]
the Eurasian Steppe, London: Macmillan, 2000.
Gegenwart, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.
Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.
kontinenten, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr 30, 2000.
skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv, Göteborg: Tre böcker, 1994.
und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens Historiska Museum, Stockholm 1970.
Other works:
Associati, 1994.-- Wiglaf 23:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First of all, there's no chance at all that Scandinavians simply sprang up de novo, in autochthonous manner. Surely we're all past that and won't be revising all of the rest of Wikipedia to have Homo sapiens appear first in Scandinavia. Since this is something I've been interested in professionally for 30 years, let me say that it is generally agreed that ALL Scandinvanians come from a small founding population (Y chromosome R1a-) at around 6000 BP. Denmark, surprisingly, has few longterm inhabitants before the rapid advance of the Neolithic, around 6000BP, probably 2000 years or less after the arising of blue eyes. The original founding population of blue eyed people come from the area between Pskov/root of the Finnish peninsula and could be given any number of tribal names - but ALL blue-eyed people descend from those people and obviously, the brown alleles didn't exactly make it to Sweden and Norway in any great numbers until very recently (as in the last 100 years, even last 40 years). Herwig Wolfram is not the only person drawing the intelligent conclusions noted above by an anonymous editor. The Wielbark culture, as a contiguous/related culture to the Hallstatt peoples seems indisputable. The upper Vistula would be an appropriate place for the River-Cultures (which were more hierarchical and specialized in occupation) to meet the Blue-Eyed Sea People (whose sea-going skills were developing rapidly and whose eventual history is definitely well known). But, the PIE root G~T, (Got, Gut, Gots, Goth, etc) PRECEDES the habitation of Sweden. So this whole article needs major revision - starting with taking out that map of Sweden as the founding place of the Goths. The Got/Gots/Goth people were very very enterprising and wonderful - and they were both part of a pre-existing family of Swedes as well as closely related to their mainland family (why wouldn't they be?). Upper Vistula is a much better guess, genetically, linguistically, culturally etc. BTW, the other interesting fact about the Vistula hypothesis is that they were river-boating people with several different methods of boat-building. Someone had to build the boats, you know. If evidence can be found that the sound sequence Got/Gut/Goth/Guth/Gutz etc was not in use until people arrived in Scandinavia - then that idea might have a go. But that evidence simply isn't there; all the evidence points to the opposite. I'm nearly in the mood to take that map out at the very least. I think this discussion has gone on long enough and that enough has been said against the Swedish hypothesis. There are no citations to support the map.LeValley 03:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The explanation for Jordanes' (and modern researchers') association between Goths and Scandinavia may be due to two reasons. Modern authors have also consulted old English texts to associate them with Scandianvia. It is possible that Jordanes derives the Goths from Ptolemy's (ca 100 AD) Go(u)tais, most likely identical to the Cwens (or Quæns, "the Kings") somewhere in Scandinavia; presumably a hunter-gathering group. Unfortunately, althought intresting, the essential sources on this group is Norse sagas. Besides being good magicians, they spend all their time on the battle-field fighting christianity. Unfortunately, this is not very much of scientific value and the Goths were actually one of the first groups adopting christianity. Scandinavia, in particular Sweden where you claim being the Gothic resident, was one of the last regions in Europe adopting Christianity! Secondly but also intrestingly; names in Jordanes' Getica does also occure in the english poem Beowulf; but it is not clear whether they refers to Scandinavian Goths, or whether the poem actually refers to Goths in Central Europe. Note that the Slavic tribes' historical existence are very similar to the Gothic realm. Thus, I don't think it is a good idea to state that the Goths were actually Swedes. Just my cents. ( 83.226.130.159 10:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC))
This consideration is covered by some authors (See e.g. The Goths; Peter Heather; 1996) because Ptolemy lists Goutais in his geographical tables which have been compared with Two voyagers at the court of king Alfred : the ventures of Ohthere and Wulfstan .... Peter proposed to literary distinguish and divide Goths into Goths and Scandinavian Goths, where Sc. G. sometimes refers to Goutais, sometimes to Geates. Note that Geates may not be "Scandinavian" at all, because Beowulf don't locate them geographically so the Scandinavian "Goths" merely refers to Goutais.
Wiglaf wrote:
I don't think so. He chose the arguments and I showed the problems of those arguments. If it was well-written and sound I would hardly succeed in doing so, would I?
No you didn't. All you really did was attack him without even bothering to read his well researched papers. If you had, you would have known that he is already well aware of all these outdated "Germanist" sources, most of which do not take the archaeological record into account:
"Since many "Germanist" historians practically avoid the issue of archaeology altogether, Peter Heather's The Goths (1996) was mainly used in reconstructing the historical scenarios as described by Jordanes. Heather paraphrases the earlier work established by German authors like Hachmann who discovered that a "Gotho-Gepedian" culture more likely originated from northern Continental Europe rather than southern Sweden (Heather 1996, 14)." [8]
That is the reason why Heather's book is valuable for researchers, and why he chose it before others available back then. Also, notice that Hachmann is mentioned, and it is clearly said that he does not propose a Scandinavian origin but a continental one.
Wiglaf wrote:
Well, if Heather hypothesizes that the Goths could not have had a Scandinavian origin, he does so without evidence.
On the contrary, he does so relying on archaeological evidence.
Wiglaf wrote:
Neither Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica nor the BBC consider Heather's speculations to be worth mentioning.
I am not sure what Encycopledia Britannica says about this issue because I do not have the latest edition right at hand now, and the online edition is not for public view:
"Member of a Germanic people whose two branches, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths, for centuries harassed the Roman Empire. According to their own legend, reported by the mid-6th-century Gothic historian Jordanes, the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia and crossed in three ships under their king Berig to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea, where they settled…" [9]
That's all you can read without becoming a member, and notice that this excerpt is talking about LEGEND, not facts. If you have access to the whole article maybe you can tell us what their opinion is regarding the validity of such legends.
In any event, sometimes it takes a while for encyclopedias to "catch up" with modern scholarship. Brockhaus Encyclopedia, for example, no longer maintains the supposed Scandinavian origin theory. I suppose other encyclopedias will "catch up" sooner or later. -- JDP 17:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:Hi JDP, I see that you have finally got yourself a username :-). Why are you so angry?
Not "angry", but rather amused. By the way, I am not the "anonymous German" you were referring to earlier. That's obviously another person who also has noticed that there is something "strange" going on with this article. It very suspiciously refuses to take note of well respected sources that point otherwise, even to the point of trying to dismiss a widely acknowledged writer like Heather, who happens to be a respected Oxford professor of History.
In order to explain to you I will quote my criticism.
I am already aware of your "criticism", but most of it can hardly be considered major opposition. You keep bringing up moot points, most of which Anctil and others are already well aware of, but they still prove or deny nothing.
Anctil gives more importance to archaeology -and rightly so- than "Germanist" speculations. According to Anctil(who bases his conclusions mostly on Heather's), there is no archaeological evidence suggesting a Scandinavian origin of the Goths that is earlier than the sites found in Poland, therefore the most logical conclusion is that such a culture originated on the continent, and later "exported" some aspects of its culture to Scandinavia. Some Scandinavians -whether "aristocrats", or "peasants", or whatever- among them does not translate into "Goths = Scandinavians".
And "point" 3 is rather strange. You have "rarely" seen scholars use the term "evidence"? Even the authors of some of your very own links use it frequently.
If you settle in a new territory, perhaps as an aristocracy, you hardly bring the pottery with you, do you? That is why archaeologists normally do not speculate about ethnicity
That's funny because even the author of one of your links [10] does that. Despite claiming that it is difficult to put ethnic origins on "archaeologically defined cultures", he keeps assuming and asserting -without providing any clear explanations- the supposedly Scandinavian origin of the Goths and "Gepidae". I guess that if we can pretend to rule out Anctil on such rather "loose" premises we can also safely discard good ol' Tadeusz Makiewicz as a "pseudo-scholar" as well.
He proposes, he hardly proves such an origin, right?
In Hachmann's times there probably still wasn't enough archaeological evidence for him to fully prove it. By Heather's times things were a bit different, as there now was much more archaeological data.
I reiterate that few archaeologists speculate on ethnicity and language in connection with archaeological cultures. Moreover, it is spurious to call material continuity evidence concerting non-material issues such as language and ethnicity
Funny because that's what Tadeusz Makiewicz does -whether wittingly or unwittingly, I am not sure- in such passages as:
"Recent archaeological research and lengthy debate on this subject have, however, established that the Wielbark Culture did not simply come into being as a result of the arrival of tribes of Scandinavian Goths in Pomerania."
"Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants, who maybe arrived here in small groups."
"The Wielbark Culture appears to have been composed of Scandinavian Goths and Gepidae as well as of earlier local communities - the Venedi and Rugii."
He certainly seems to be very at ease assigning geographical/cultural origins to different groups, doesn't he? Unfortunately he forgot to clearly explain why such associations seem so "clear" to him.
You claim that it will be catching up. Do you know that many modern scholars claim that Jordanes account has some truth in it? See the list above
Many in that list are outdated sources, published before Heather's or Christensen's works. -- JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous contributor wrote:
Andrzej Kokowski is a good friend of mine and we worked together on some exhibitions about Vandals and Goths in the past. He certainly is the leading Polish expert on Wielbark archaeology and you would hear from him nothing but that the Wielbark culture is indigenous to the Vistula region. He allows for some Scandinavian influence but always argues that the Wielbark-Goths did not come from Scandinavia.
Thank you for that information. So it seems Kokowski has rather different views than Tadeusz Makiewicz, who very obviously believes the Goths and "Gepidae" to be "foreign" elements to the earlier local peoples of Poland.
I take it that you must be a scholar on the subject yourself or something to that effect? I mean, you said that you "worked" with him on some exhibitions. -- JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The origin of the Goths in Scandinavia is, as alreadey mentioned, quite dubious. Besides Christensen and Heather cf. Volker Bierbrauer in Frühmittelalterliche Studien 28, pp. 51ff. Jordanes presents us a constructed history, the origin in Scandinavia is meant as a topos.
I agree that the Scandinavian origin of the Goths is a controversial issue. However, I do not agree that "the stance that [Swedish] historians take in the issue is an ideological symbol". To me, this somehow implies that those who favor the Scandinavian origin do so for nationalist reasons. It may be the case for some, but hardly for most. KarlXII 13:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
All the germanic cultures came from Scandinavia, the Goths are a progressive phenomena, the goths are a mixture with many others cultural manifestations from early iron age in northern poland, they have many links with southern Sweden but are not the same culture, the swedish goths are a portion of population isolated in their original homeland with a few links with the historically goths but are not the same, the Goths are a Swedish origin culture but with many mixtures from another cultures swedish just in their origin
I am looking for references to explain the 19th century portrayal of Goths as a "horse people" with a strong cavalry etc. Is this based on Jordanes or other early sources? The Fornaldursagas? Is it connected with a confusion of Huns and Goths during the Middle Ages? What is the opinion of contemporary historians, did the Goths learn horsemanship from the Alans or Huns? dab (ᛏ) 11:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See the following: Ammianus Marcellinus; Sir Charles Oman : Adrianopol 378 (from Geofrey Regan book) CristianChirita 16:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why in the archaeology section are we reading "In Poland, the material culture associated with these Goths (or better Gothones)..." Gothones, eh. Why "better" Gothones? Or why not "Guthones"? "Gothones" gets about 470 Google hits. If it were better, why haven't we been saying "Gothones"? all along? It sounds a little affected in English, to be honest. May we get rid of "Gothones"? -- Wetman 15:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
What is the actuality behind this, if any?
Can anyone with a brief quote perhaps make good history out of this? (Query repeated at Talk:Council of Basel) --00:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
It was historical, as far as I know ! Even tradtionally, we have been told these things by the older generation. There will always be difference in perceptions and the 15th century is no exception to the rule.
Gothic Hero
05:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The phrase Mare Suebicum is resoundingly and repeatedly suppressed, and the reader is given instead only the modern interpretation. ("Baltic Sea" may in fact be correct.) Could someone with a basic grasp of the rules of presenting historical evidence fix this please? -- Wetman 10:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the term Goth should point foremost to this article, not to the subculture as it does now. This would require changing a vast amount of links, though. Any suggestions? Rain74 11:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Although this article makes good use of citations (in comparison to others on wikipedia) there is still a few mistakes in areas which citation is lacking. I don't have time right now, but i will fix them in the near future. Cheers, MedievalScholar 19:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The following destroyed the map. Can it be re-edited for the article? "The red area and in the traditional province of Ostrogothia, in Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period. [1] The settlement in today's Poland probably corresponds to the introduction of Scandinavian burial traditions, such as the stone circles and the stelae, which indicates that the early Goths preferred to bury their dead according to Scandinavian traditions. The Polish archaeologist Tomasz Skorupka states that a migration from Scandinavia is regarded as a matter of certainty:" -- Wetman 18:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
References
"In Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period". I am suspicious of this. I am not personally aware of such a theory. The cited source is quite possibly obsolete, as it was published in 1945. The Iron Age settlement archaeology in Sweden has developed with giant leaps during the recent decades, and the depopulation hypotheses have been largely refuted at least in some regions. It is not unlikely that some interpretations made by Count Oxenstierna regarding Östergötland have been overruled. Please find out a more recent and convincing source, maybe some book of Anders Kaliff?-- 217.112.242.181 10:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following section, which looks like original research. It does not seem worthwile to keep in the article for the following reason: If the comparison between modern Swedes and modern Spaniards is to say anything about the number of Spaniards patrilineally descended from Swedish Goths, the section has to describe the distribution of haplogroups prior to the Gothic invasion and exclude other genetic contributions:
I don't think it gives any valuable information whatsoever as the number of Spaniards with Swedish haplotypes could be anything from 0% to 10%. It is misdirected original research, IMHO.-- Berig 12:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of work done recently with genetics and ancient peoples. Many articles talk about it .. Anglo-Saxons, Huns.. we should not discount the ongoing genetics research which is new, often inconclusive, but interesting and cutting edge. This particular paragraph looks accurate (who would.. could .. make it up?) but it is unsourced. If there was a source we could summarize the findings, removing the biology class gobblygook. But we need a source to attribute. I plan on reading a recent survey on the Goths soon and will keep an eye out for more info. No doubt the Goths origins is a complex and controversial disucussion. -- Stbalbach 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article (specifically under the history sub title) it says "you're all lying" can someone delete it. 69.236.181.245 05:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Small Text
I think the article is well writen and a huge work. It represents one angle on the Gothic migration which describes the migration from Goths from Scanza down the vistula and eventually ends up settled at the eastern Balkans as a treaty with Emperor Valens in 376.
What I think most people are questioning about this article is that this theory of migration is under criticism from alot of sides and the archeological founds does not prove that this migration has existed but neither do they deny it. The current research on the field do question this and what they emphasize is that a new research is to be done without having "getica" as a valid source because its simply too unrealiable. The problem is we know that there are alot of nonesense in "getica" like reports of romans at the battle of troy and Amazons. This damage the value of the "getica" because we know some parts of its are deliberatly lies and some parts of it "might" be true. But have do way to seperate the lies from the truths in getica without speculating.
To mention some of the writers which I have studied some reject and other agrees with this "long migration of the goths".
Wolfram, Wenskus, Walther Pohl Argues for the migration and origin of the Goths in Scandinavia. And they all use Getica to do this. Heather do no think highly of Getica. But he do belive that the Migration can be proved from studying the Archeological founds down the Vistula.
Goffart, Guy Hallsall and Patrick Armory argues for a new research needs to be done and they all deny that "getica" can be used as source. Further more they question the Archeological data available. As mentioned in the Article the Wielbark and cernjachov cultures. Guy Halsall concludes that the evidence is simply not there to prove the Migration and the link between the Wielbark and cernjachov as a migration from Scanza down to the east balkans
"In short no Prima facie archaelogical evidence exist of a migration up the vistula to the black sea shores"
— Halsall, Guy (1999, "Review article. Movers and shakers: the barbarians and the fall of Rome. Early medieval europe 8
Walter Goffart disagrees with Wolframs ideas of the migration and goths on many points. He deny the idea of "core of traditions" and the thought the the Goths could have originated in Scandinavia and move all the way down the vistula as "stämme". He reject the entire notion of a gothic history and that we cannot say anything about the goths untill 376, everything before is pure imagination. To quote Goffart about the migration of goths:
"Two very distinct courses are available to us, depending on the quality of evidence and the scale of conjecture and combination we are willing to tolerate. Those very strict in the selection and handling of sources will refuse to go farther afield than to the lands bordering tge Roman Empire in the fourth century A.D. Those however, Who welcome a wider range of documentation and liberally resort to hypothesis and speculation will find it possible and even desirable to reach as far out in space as Scandinavia and as far back in time as before the Christian era. This major difference of approach to the period of Barbarian invasions deserves to be spelled out and eloborated because little is said about it outside German acedemic scene"
— Goffart, Walter (1980), Barbarians and romans A.D. 418-584: The techniques for accomodation
So in short. As to whether or not the Goths origined from Scandinavia is questionable. It cant be denied but neither confirmed. The argumentation of the field of scientist are still going strong and what most want is a new research with the starting point "That no barbarian migration existed unless it can be proven from archeological founds" Problem with todays archeological founds is that they are made with "getica" in the back of the head. So you find what you want to find. The artefacts from the Wielbark area in Cernajachov are seen as proof of the migration but the founds of Cernjachov artefacts in the Wielbark area is seen as a sign of trade. But however, cant it be possible that the wielbark artefacts in Cernjachov are sign of trades and not proof of the migration? The vistuale was one of the biggest trading areas anyhow.
As to the article, I dont think its neccesary to change anything, perhaps add a section about the ongoing discussion and the Heavy critisicm of Getica and the current archealogical findings. But again it depends what View you have on the barbarian migration. I like how the article stress that story is taken from Jordannes so people can decide wether they see Getica as a reliant source.
Ive not created a profile but Im a danish history student at the university of Copenhagen. My course is exactly about this subject and my Teacher is "Arne Søbe Christensen" who has been mentioned aswell and who self question wether the goths originated in Scandinavia. Keep up the good work and the discussion :)
Further reading I recommend: Noble, Thomas (2006) From roman provinces to medieval kingdoms" . Its a collection of different articles from Wolfram to goffart about the Goths. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.164.83.90 ( talk) 21:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
You should get yourself an account and start contributing to the articles. First of all - the devil is in the details. You raise many questions that together show how hard studies in humanistics are in general:
All these points bring in uncertainty about the origins of the Goths, and the more you look into the details, the more easy it is to question everything. However, what most scholars do, I guess, is to put the appearance of the Goths near the Roman borders in the context of the Germanic migrations from Northern Europe, more generally. There were probably many reasons why Scandinavians would like to migrate, since you find a similar exodus during the Viking Age.-- Berig 14:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In Finland there is a small group of cemeteries very similar to the ones Ostrogothia and in the Wielbark culture. This fact as well as numerous Germanic loan-words in Finnish have given birth to a theory of limited Gothic and/or East Scandinavian settlement or at least cultural influence in Finland. Do you think this should be mentioned in this article?-- 130.234.75.20 14:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess that sums up my concern. Jacob Haller 05:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, how do the Goths come into Wikiproject Germany? I wouldn't mind the help but aren't Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Italy, France & Spain more relevent? Jacob Haller 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems the older sections all focus on one question: where did the Goths come from? (which doesn't lend itself to clear answers anyway) and neglected several other questions: who were the Goths? how did they live? etc. (which archaeological evidence can help answer).
I've started short sections of settlement patterns & burial practices. But it seems like most of the article is devoted to perpetually-disputed Swedish-Polish connections much earlier, and very little to the 3rd century, 4th century, or after, or to descriptions of their way of life. Jacob Haller 17:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Quoting from the language section: "Similarly, the Saxon dialects of Germany are hardly closer to Anglo-Saxon than any other West Germanic language that hasn't undergone the High German consonant shift (see Grimm's law), but the tribes themselves are definitely identical." I can't figure out what the last passage means. There are English who are not (upper) Saxon and there are (upper) Saxons who are not English, so the two groups are not identical; rather they derive certain elements of English-ness and Saxon-ness from the common origin. (The same concern applies to Gotho-Scandinavian connections as to Anglo-German ones). Jacob Haller 18:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Both U5a1a & R1b1c9a haplogroups are germanic. U5a1a are Goths and R1b1c9a is Norman/Belgica/Friesian - Celtic/Germanic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.26.143.164 ( talk) 02:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
I haven't encountered this syntagm so far. However, intuitively, I assume it's about words who are paired in two parallel languages in etymological evolution, not words occuring by "expected sound changes" (most words evolve by "expected sound changes" - this is how linguistics works, isn't it?). Therefore if one claims Gutar and Goths are "etymologically identical" he has to show how Goths and Gutar evolved linguistically (or to bring a scholar reference for that). Daizus 16:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Should we create one? It would provide a place to discuss Gothic origins, different models, etc. without giving undue weight on this page (and repeating the discussions on other pages). We would have three main issues (1) the origin of the Baltic Goths (and the importance of the Scandinavian connection), (2) the origin of the Black Sea Goths (and different models: mass migration, smaller migration and Gothic conquest/elite dominance, smaller migration and Gothicization (locals become Goths) and/or Dacian/Sarmationization (Goths become locals), etc.), (3) the origin of the later Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Any thoughts? Jacob Haller 00:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Green, D.H., Language and History in the early Germanic World, pp. 164ff, identifies the Bastarnae as an East-Germanic group, and argues that some East-Germanic speakers had settled the Black Sea area as early as the 2nd Century B.C.E. Jacob Haller 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding (based third-hand) that the prisoners came from Cappadocian, which was part of the Roman Empire, but also from other parts of the Roman Empire as well. Which is why the original "Roman prisoners" seemed like the best option. I'm not sure why we need to specify Cappadocian, why not just say they were "Roman", which is really the most important element in the context of the sentence. -- Stbalbach 23:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the bit that apparently needed a citation because, I believe, if something needs a citation to be considered factual, it might as well not be in the article until it's cited. Make sense? 152.23.196.162 01:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The following is unsourced and makes the article appear zany: Some would argue that the Goths had their origins in the Lost Tribes of Israel. citation needed To date there is not a substantial amount of evidence to support this theory, however, those that support the Goth's origins in the Baltics would have to acknowledge the accounts of the Lost Tribes of Israel being forcibly relocated there by Assyria. citation needed This relocation ocurred almost 1000 years before records of the Goths first surfaced, putting it in the "right" time frame. (The Lost Tribes were believed to have been relocated around 700 BC). citation needed This is just not mainstream material.-- Wetman 14:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Food for thought :) The opposite to the premise may also be valid, i.e., the Tribes of Israel may have also had Gothic members.
Please bear with my convoluted hypothetical analysis. Consider that both the Hittite an Egyptian empires around the time of the exodus were multi-ethnic cosmopolitan empires who drew in professionals of many nationalities. The province of Canaan, situated between (and at times a part of) these two empires was by no means homogenous. The widowed
Mitanni-Egyptian queen
Nefertiti was unable to secure peace and union when the
Hittite prince she was to marry was assasinated en route to Egypt, possibly at the hands of her (hypothetically) adoptive father
Ay, q.v. 'Secrets of the Exodus' book.
According to that book, the tribes of Israel were composed of Judah (former priests of the Egyptian empire who had converted to monotheism under
Akhenaten), and settled strategically closer to Egypt, and the 'Erev-rav' ('common people' of the empire, 'Hebrews'). The Erev-rav had comprised the various layers of the Egyptian (monotheistic [and polytheistic]) bureaucracy under Akhenaten as 'servants' in the sense of 'public servants'. These public servants were multiethnic (e.g. ancestors of the
Masai 'police',
Hittites,
Minoans,
Akkadians, descendants of the
Guti etc.) and skilled. They were not killed due to differences in faith with that of the Egyptian empire, but were escorted in a civilised manner to repopulate the promised border province that the Egyptians had lost.
Later modification of the old testament during the Babylonian captivity distanced literarily the Tribes of Israel from the Egyptian rivals of the Babylonians. The crisis of the 'moving of the people' was that the border province of Canaan was not firmly under Egyptian control, and had to be reconquered by
Seti I aka
Joshua (son of Nun), before the people could settle there in security. This is just a possibility mind you, but one worth considering when venturing into the 'outlier' discussion about Goths and the Lost (non-Judah & -Benjamin) Tribes of Israel, who in this hypothesis are more predominantly defined by adherence to a common faith in one G-d than their ethnicity - perhaps this had something indirectly to do with their later disappearance?
Gabrieli
11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Suggesting spinning off the section "Origin of the Name "Goth" (*Gut-)" as its own article, like Origin of the name Goth. Articles Geat, Gotland and Götaland could link to it, and Goths naturally as well. -- Drieakko 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Possibly also include the articles on the
Guti and
Oium. The connection is hypothetical, but the word Guti is very similar to {*Gut-}. The
Guti utterly destroyed
Akkad around 2215 BC, about 120 years after the last Sag-giga ('black-headed' or 'Sumerian') king was defeated by
Sargon the Great founder of the Semitic Akkadian dynasty.
Jordanes' account in the article on
Oium where the Goths defeat the legendary Egyptian Pharaoh
Sesostris (1291 BC - 1212 BC), apparently a compound of
Ramesses I and
Seti I, who strangely enough are hypothetically
Moses and
Joshua (son of Nun) respectively, according to the book Secrets of the Exodus: The Egyptian Origins of the Hebrew People by Messod Sabbah, Roger Sabbah, transl. Art Banta, and Lois Banta (2004).
The book also mentions Nefertiti (daughter of a priest of the
Mitanni who are a tribe related to the
Guti), influencing her husband Akhenaten and co-founding the monotheistic worship of the solar disk, which leads to the escorted exodus of the monotheistic Egyptians to the frontier provinces in Canaan.
Gabrieli
09:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The only source for early Gothic history is Jordanes' citation needed Getica (finished in 551 or around 1850), citation needed a condensation of the lost twelve-volume history of the Goths written in Italy by Cassiodorus citation needed around 530. Jordanes may not even have had the work at hand to consult from, and this early information should be treated with caution. Cassiodorus was well placed to write of Goths, for he was an essential minister of Theodoric the Great, who apparently had heard some of the Gothic songs that told of their traditional origins.
Several historians, including Peter Heather and Michael Kulikowski, argue that Jordanes' Getica presents a fictional genealogy of Theodoric and fictional history of the Goths for ancient propaganda purposes, and cast doubt on the Scandinavian origin, on the supposed royal dynasties, and on the supposed 4th-Century Kingdom of Ermaneric. [1] [2]
What do you think about adding the section above ? Any obejction ?
References
Can anyone tell me if Gothic was spoken in what became Germany in the Dark Ages? Its never mentionned whether it was, and Im wondering what was spoken there prior to Old High German. 80.192.4.73 13:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I just wondering, do we really Encarta in here? I see a attribution to it [third paragraph] John Manuel- 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A literal reading of Jordanes is definitely a fringe view. The 1490 BC crap should be removed from the intro. Jacob Haller 16:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, yes, yes. Some have you have discovered the ancient source problem. All the sources are like that, you know. If the discovery of a false report makes an author totally unworthy of credibility then we have no ancient history. So, some of most authors has to be discounted, but there is a method. You look for substantiation elsewhere. Right now this article is a bit one-sided; however, I will be addressing that soon. A second approach looks for falsity to be substantiated elsewhere. But what do you do then? Well, if something is shown to be wrong, you discount it. Otherwise you have no reason not to accept it. The principle is familiar to us: innocent until proven guilty. So, until someone shows me that Jordanes is wrong then I believe everything he says. If I do not then there can be no ancient history. All the mediaeval writers write the same way: first the items of tradition or belief, then what the author knows. For the earlier times, we are pretty sure no pharohs of Egypt fought it out with the Goths in the Bronze Age. The names he cites are not Germanic. It appears as though he got some Alanic names and traditions, but that is a theory that would have to be proved. A lot of Jordanes is independently verified. We are as safe as anyone in using that. I see that this is the first acquaintance of some of you with the methods and assumptions of ancient history, or indeed history. I hope that you go further; however, this is not a new field, or an unscientific one, or a hobby field where whatever anyone says goes. Jordanes is pretty standard and so pretty much is incredibility of his earliest events. Best wishes, I hope you go further. Dave ( talk) 00:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Gotar is also like the word gotra meaning race, linege in Sanskrit and originally only referred to people of Vedic birth right.
The same is with 'Jaata' which is like the word Jute. Jaata also is like Gotra meaning birthright, linege. The word jati is related. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 10:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is so pathetically POV it's not even funny. NOTHING about music, graveyards, poetry, darkness or tips on how to dye your hair black and stuff. You think Goths are old fashioned? There is Goth websites and everything. You people are not living in the real world, we're nothing like this article anymore. Try hanging out at a Goth club for a weekend (if anyone asks you for blood, run) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.72.187 ( talk) 00:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
To the literatur list you should add the two dissertations by Arne Søby Christensen (Cassiodur, Jordanes and the muth of the Goths (2002) and Ingemar Nordgren (2004), The Well Spring of the Goths. 87.57.197.10 ( talk) 21:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)Jan Eskildsen
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The map of Gotaland (Gothland in English) should be changed, it only present the modern region Gotaland, the old Gotaland was bigger and covered parts of west Svealand (Svitjod) like Värmland (Wermland) aand Gotland (The Goth Land) should be included into that map as well.
A good map, can be found here, maybe little small, http://www.scania.org/activities/council2/illrep/med/Bild02.JPG —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Then however if this place is the origin or not for Goths is another story, but proofs are that Goths has been living there since 400 A.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace ( talk • contribs) 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
The whole article should be deleted. It contains wrong and outdated information about the origins of the Goths and indeed about the nature of the Goths. The section about the physical appearance of the Goths reminds of Nazi-style racism. Again, this article has no scholarly value whatsoever and should be deleted.--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.5.187.42 ( talk) 07:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
--- This article is of no value. It contains plenty of false and outdated information. The stranges section is indeed the one about the physical appearance of the Goths. It may not be the intention of the author, but this clearly reminds of Nazi-style racism. The article needs to be rewritten completely. The current version is beyond repair and should be deleted urgently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfram2000 ( talk • contribs) 07:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Really, folks.
There is no proof whatsoever that the Goths came from Scandinavia. Every respected scholar agrees that they came from the Eurasian steppes north of the Black sea, migrated into Scandinavia and not from Scandinavia. This is only a nationalromantic view of the Swedes.
Read Stenroth, Ingmar "Myten om goterna Från antiken till romantiken". It is obvious.
Motörhead Remember Me (
talk)
15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above. The myth of the origin of the Goths can be tracked back through the ages to the Roman Empire. There is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that Goths originated from Swedish territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.192.10 ( talk) 18:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion so far: An anonymous German (82.35.89.68) wants to remove any mention of a Scandinavian origin, which he has tried to do at Heruls. He claims that the only Pre-Roman Iron Age Germanic culture that was Germanic with "certainty" was the German Jastorf culture. This is a claim which would make Germany the cradle of the Germanic tribes.
He names a number of German historians and a Dane, Christensen, as evidence against the possibility of a Gothic migration from Scandinavia. So far his evidence is restricted to naming scholars and to referring to German books.
Since he claims that his assertions are identical to modern scholarship. I present a list of scholarship which does not agree with him (the authors of Encyclopedia Britannica are not included) and interestingly, they include an author that he refers to:
Hooker (1996):
WHAT ARE THOSE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDINGS? References please! Motörhead Remember Me ( talk) 15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
A quote from Watkins at San José University:
Another quote from Linguistlist [4]:
Associati, 1994.
Another quote [5]:
A list of modern scholarship who support Jordanes, from Linguistlist [6]
the Eurasian Steppe, London: Macmillan, 2000.
Gegenwart, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.
Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.
kontinenten, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr 30, 2000.
skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv, Göteborg: Tre böcker, 1994.
und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens Historiska Museum, Stockholm 1970.
Other works:
Associati, 1994.-- Wiglaf 23:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First of all, there's no chance at all that Scandinavians simply sprang up de novo, in autochthonous manner. Surely we're all past that and won't be revising all of the rest of Wikipedia to have Homo sapiens appear first in Scandinavia. Since this is something I've been interested in professionally for 30 years, let me say that it is generally agreed that ALL Scandinvanians come from a small founding population (Y chromosome R1a-) at around 6000 BP. Denmark, surprisingly, has few longterm inhabitants before the rapid advance of the Neolithic, around 6000BP, probably 2000 years or less after the arising of blue eyes. The original founding population of blue eyed people come from the area between Pskov/root of the Finnish peninsula and could be given any number of tribal names - but ALL blue-eyed people descend from those people and obviously, the brown alleles didn't exactly make it to Sweden and Norway in any great numbers until very recently (as in the last 100 years, even last 40 years). Herwig Wolfram is not the only person drawing the intelligent conclusions noted above by an anonymous editor. The Wielbark culture, as a contiguous/related culture to the Hallstatt peoples seems indisputable. The upper Vistula would be an appropriate place for the River-Cultures (which were more hierarchical and specialized in occupation) to meet the Blue-Eyed Sea People (whose sea-going skills were developing rapidly and whose eventual history is definitely well known). But, the PIE root G~T, (Got, Gut, Gots, Goth, etc) PRECEDES the habitation of Sweden. So this whole article needs major revision - starting with taking out that map of Sweden as the founding place of the Goths. The Got/Gots/Goth people were very very enterprising and wonderful - and they were both part of a pre-existing family of Swedes as well as closely related to their mainland family (why wouldn't they be?). Upper Vistula is a much better guess, genetically, linguistically, culturally etc. BTW, the other interesting fact about the Vistula hypothesis is that they were river-boating people with several different methods of boat-building. Someone had to build the boats, you know. If evidence can be found that the sound sequence Got/Gut/Goth/Guth/Gutz etc was not in use until people arrived in Scandinavia - then that idea might have a go. But that evidence simply isn't there; all the evidence points to the opposite. I'm nearly in the mood to take that map out at the very least. I think this discussion has gone on long enough and that enough has been said against the Swedish hypothesis. There are no citations to support the map.LeValley 03:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The explanation for Jordanes' (and modern researchers') association between Goths and Scandinavia may be due to two reasons. Modern authors have also consulted old English texts to associate them with Scandianvia. It is possible that Jordanes derives the Goths from Ptolemy's (ca 100 AD) Go(u)tais, most likely identical to the Cwens (or Quæns, "the Kings") somewhere in Scandinavia; presumably a hunter-gathering group. Unfortunately, althought intresting, the essential sources on this group is Norse sagas. Besides being good magicians, they spend all their time on the battle-field fighting christianity. Unfortunately, this is not very much of scientific value and the Goths were actually one of the first groups adopting christianity. Scandinavia, in particular Sweden where you claim being the Gothic resident, was one of the last regions in Europe adopting Christianity! Secondly but also intrestingly; names in Jordanes' Getica does also occure in the english poem Beowulf; but it is not clear whether they refers to Scandinavian Goths, or whether the poem actually refers to Goths in Central Europe. Note that the Slavic tribes' historical existence are very similar to the Gothic realm. Thus, I don't think it is a good idea to state that the Goths were actually Swedes. Just my cents. ( 83.226.130.159 10:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC))
This consideration is covered by some authors (See e.g. The Goths; Peter Heather; 1996) because Ptolemy lists Goutais in his geographical tables which have been compared with Two voyagers at the court of king Alfred : the ventures of Ohthere and Wulfstan .... Peter proposed to literary distinguish and divide Goths into Goths and Scandinavian Goths, where Sc. G. sometimes refers to Goutais, sometimes to Geates. Note that Geates may not be "Scandinavian" at all, because Beowulf don't locate them geographically so the Scandinavian "Goths" merely refers to Goutais.
Wiglaf wrote:
I don't think so. He chose the arguments and I showed the problems of those arguments. If it was well-written and sound I would hardly succeed in doing so, would I?
No you didn't. All you really did was attack him without even bothering to read his well researched papers. If you had, you would have known that he is already well aware of all these outdated "Germanist" sources, most of which do not take the archaeological record into account:
"Since many "Germanist" historians practically avoid the issue of archaeology altogether, Peter Heather's The Goths (1996) was mainly used in reconstructing the historical scenarios as described by Jordanes. Heather paraphrases the earlier work established by German authors like Hachmann who discovered that a "Gotho-Gepedian" culture more likely originated from northern Continental Europe rather than southern Sweden (Heather 1996, 14)." [8]
That is the reason why Heather's book is valuable for researchers, and why he chose it before others available back then. Also, notice that Hachmann is mentioned, and it is clearly said that he does not propose a Scandinavian origin but a continental one.
Wiglaf wrote:
Well, if Heather hypothesizes that the Goths could not have had a Scandinavian origin, he does so without evidence.
On the contrary, he does so relying on archaeological evidence.
Wiglaf wrote:
Neither Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica nor the BBC consider Heather's speculations to be worth mentioning.
I am not sure what Encycopledia Britannica says about this issue because I do not have the latest edition right at hand now, and the online edition is not for public view:
"Member of a Germanic people whose two branches, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths, for centuries harassed the Roman Empire. According to their own legend, reported by the mid-6th-century Gothic historian Jordanes, the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia and crossed in three ships under their king Berig to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea, where they settled…" [9]
That's all you can read without becoming a member, and notice that this excerpt is talking about LEGEND, not facts. If you have access to the whole article maybe you can tell us what their opinion is regarding the validity of such legends.
In any event, sometimes it takes a while for encyclopedias to "catch up" with modern scholarship. Brockhaus Encyclopedia, for example, no longer maintains the supposed Scandinavian origin theory. I suppose other encyclopedias will "catch up" sooner or later. -- JDP 17:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:Hi JDP, I see that you have finally got yourself a username :-). Why are you so angry?
Not "angry", but rather amused. By the way, I am not the "anonymous German" you were referring to earlier. That's obviously another person who also has noticed that there is something "strange" going on with this article. It very suspiciously refuses to take note of well respected sources that point otherwise, even to the point of trying to dismiss a widely acknowledged writer like Heather, who happens to be a respected Oxford professor of History.
In order to explain to you I will quote my criticism.
I am already aware of your "criticism", but most of it can hardly be considered major opposition. You keep bringing up moot points, most of which Anctil and others are already well aware of, but they still prove or deny nothing.
Anctil gives more importance to archaeology -and rightly so- than "Germanist" speculations. According to Anctil(who bases his conclusions mostly on Heather's), there is no archaeological evidence suggesting a Scandinavian origin of the Goths that is earlier than the sites found in Poland, therefore the most logical conclusion is that such a culture originated on the continent, and later "exported" some aspects of its culture to Scandinavia. Some Scandinavians -whether "aristocrats", or "peasants", or whatever- among them does not translate into "Goths = Scandinavians".
And "point" 3 is rather strange. You have "rarely" seen scholars use the term "evidence"? Even the authors of some of your very own links use it frequently.
If you settle in a new territory, perhaps as an aristocracy, you hardly bring the pottery with you, do you? That is why archaeologists normally do not speculate about ethnicity
That's funny because even the author of one of your links [10] does that. Despite claiming that it is difficult to put ethnic origins on "archaeologically defined cultures", he keeps assuming and asserting -without providing any clear explanations- the supposedly Scandinavian origin of the Goths and "Gepidae". I guess that if we can pretend to rule out Anctil on such rather "loose" premises we can also safely discard good ol' Tadeusz Makiewicz as a "pseudo-scholar" as well.
He proposes, he hardly proves such an origin, right?
In Hachmann's times there probably still wasn't enough archaeological evidence for him to fully prove it. By Heather's times things were a bit different, as there now was much more archaeological data.
I reiterate that few archaeologists speculate on ethnicity and language in connection with archaeological cultures. Moreover, it is spurious to call material continuity evidence concerting non-material issues such as language and ethnicity
Funny because that's what Tadeusz Makiewicz does -whether wittingly or unwittingly, I am not sure- in such passages as:
"Recent archaeological research and lengthy debate on this subject have, however, established that the Wielbark Culture did not simply come into being as a result of the arrival of tribes of Scandinavian Goths in Pomerania."
"Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants, who maybe arrived here in small groups."
"The Wielbark Culture appears to have been composed of Scandinavian Goths and Gepidae as well as of earlier local communities - the Venedi and Rugii."
He certainly seems to be very at ease assigning geographical/cultural origins to different groups, doesn't he? Unfortunately he forgot to clearly explain why such associations seem so "clear" to him.
You claim that it will be catching up. Do you know that many modern scholars claim that Jordanes account has some truth in it? See the list above
Many in that list are outdated sources, published before Heather's or Christensen's works. -- JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous contributor wrote:
Andrzej Kokowski is a good friend of mine and we worked together on some exhibitions about Vandals and Goths in the past. He certainly is the leading Polish expert on Wielbark archaeology and you would hear from him nothing but that the Wielbark culture is indigenous to the Vistula region. He allows for some Scandinavian influence but always argues that the Wielbark-Goths did not come from Scandinavia.
Thank you for that information. So it seems Kokowski has rather different views than Tadeusz Makiewicz, who very obviously believes the Goths and "Gepidae" to be "foreign" elements to the earlier local peoples of Poland.
I take it that you must be a scholar on the subject yourself or something to that effect? I mean, you said that you "worked" with him on some exhibitions. -- JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The origin of the Goths in Scandinavia is, as alreadey mentioned, quite dubious. Besides Christensen and Heather cf. Volker Bierbrauer in Frühmittelalterliche Studien 28, pp. 51ff. Jordanes presents us a constructed history, the origin in Scandinavia is meant as a topos.
I agree that the Scandinavian origin of the Goths is a controversial issue. However, I do not agree that "the stance that [Swedish] historians take in the issue is an ideological symbol". To me, this somehow implies that those who favor the Scandinavian origin do so for nationalist reasons. It may be the case for some, but hardly for most. KarlXII 13:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
All the germanic cultures came from Scandinavia, the Goths are a progressive phenomena, the goths are a mixture with many others cultural manifestations from early iron age in northern poland, they have many links with southern Sweden but are not the same culture, the swedish goths are a portion of population isolated in their original homeland with a few links with the historically goths but are not the same, the Goths are a Swedish origin culture but with many mixtures from another cultures swedish just in their origin
I am looking for references to explain the 19th century portrayal of Goths as a "horse people" with a strong cavalry etc. Is this based on Jordanes or other early sources? The Fornaldursagas? Is it connected with a confusion of Huns and Goths during the Middle Ages? What is the opinion of contemporary historians, did the Goths learn horsemanship from the Alans or Huns? dab (ᛏ) 11:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See the following: Ammianus Marcellinus; Sir Charles Oman : Adrianopol 378 (from Geofrey Regan book) CristianChirita 16:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why in the archaeology section are we reading "In Poland, the material culture associated with these Goths (or better Gothones)..." Gothones, eh. Why "better" Gothones? Or why not "Guthones"? "Gothones" gets about 470 Google hits. If it were better, why haven't we been saying "Gothones"? all along? It sounds a little affected in English, to be honest. May we get rid of "Gothones"? -- Wetman 15:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
What is the actuality behind this, if any?
Can anyone with a brief quote perhaps make good history out of this? (Query repeated at Talk:Council of Basel) --00:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
It was historical, as far as I know ! Even tradtionally, we have been told these things by the older generation. There will always be difference in perceptions and the 15th century is no exception to the rule.
Gothic Hero
05:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The phrase Mare Suebicum is resoundingly and repeatedly suppressed, and the reader is given instead only the modern interpretation. ("Baltic Sea" may in fact be correct.) Could someone with a basic grasp of the rules of presenting historical evidence fix this please? -- Wetman 10:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the term Goth should point foremost to this article, not to the subculture as it does now. This would require changing a vast amount of links, though. Any suggestions? Rain74 11:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Although this article makes good use of citations (in comparison to others on wikipedia) there is still a few mistakes in areas which citation is lacking. I don't have time right now, but i will fix them in the near future. Cheers, MedievalScholar 19:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The following destroyed the map. Can it be re-edited for the article? "The red area and in the traditional province of Ostrogothia, in Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period. [1] The settlement in today's Poland probably corresponds to the introduction of Scandinavian burial traditions, such as the stone circles and the stelae, which indicates that the early Goths preferred to bury their dead according to Scandinavian traditions. The Polish archaeologist Tomasz Skorupka states that a migration from Scandinavia is regarded as a matter of certainty:" -- Wetman 18:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
References
"In Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period". I am suspicious of this. I am not personally aware of such a theory. The cited source is quite possibly obsolete, as it was published in 1945. The Iron Age settlement archaeology in Sweden has developed with giant leaps during the recent decades, and the depopulation hypotheses have been largely refuted at least in some regions. It is not unlikely that some interpretations made by Count Oxenstierna regarding Östergötland have been overruled. Please find out a more recent and convincing source, maybe some book of Anders Kaliff?-- 217.112.242.181 10:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following section, which looks like original research. It does not seem worthwile to keep in the article for the following reason: If the comparison between modern Swedes and modern Spaniards is to say anything about the number of Spaniards patrilineally descended from Swedish Goths, the section has to describe the distribution of haplogroups prior to the Gothic invasion and exclude other genetic contributions:
I don't think it gives any valuable information whatsoever as the number of Spaniards with Swedish haplotypes could be anything from 0% to 10%. It is misdirected original research, IMHO.-- Berig 12:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of work done recently with genetics and ancient peoples. Many articles talk about it .. Anglo-Saxons, Huns.. we should not discount the ongoing genetics research which is new, often inconclusive, but interesting and cutting edge. This particular paragraph looks accurate (who would.. could .. make it up?) but it is unsourced. If there was a source we could summarize the findings, removing the biology class gobblygook. But we need a source to attribute. I plan on reading a recent survey on the Goths soon and will keep an eye out for more info. No doubt the Goths origins is a complex and controversial disucussion. -- Stbalbach 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article (specifically under the history sub title) it says "you're all lying" can someone delete it. 69.236.181.245 05:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Small Text
I think the article is well writen and a huge work. It represents one angle on the Gothic migration which describes the migration from Goths from Scanza down the vistula and eventually ends up settled at the eastern Balkans as a treaty with Emperor Valens in 376.
What I think most people are questioning about this article is that this theory of migration is under criticism from alot of sides and the archeological founds does not prove that this migration has existed but neither do they deny it. The current research on the field do question this and what they emphasize is that a new research is to be done without having "getica" as a valid source because its simply too unrealiable. The problem is we know that there are alot of nonesense in "getica" like reports of romans at the battle of troy and Amazons. This damage the value of the "getica" because we know some parts of its are deliberatly lies and some parts of it "might" be true. But have do way to seperate the lies from the truths in getica without speculating.
To mention some of the writers which I have studied some reject and other agrees with this "long migration of the goths".
Wolfram, Wenskus, Walther Pohl Argues for the migration and origin of the Goths in Scandinavia. And they all use Getica to do this. Heather do no think highly of Getica. But he do belive that the Migration can be proved from studying the Archeological founds down the Vistula.
Goffart, Guy Hallsall and Patrick Armory argues for a new research needs to be done and they all deny that "getica" can be used as source. Further more they question the Archeological data available. As mentioned in the Article the Wielbark and cernjachov cultures. Guy Halsall concludes that the evidence is simply not there to prove the Migration and the link between the Wielbark and cernjachov as a migration from Scanza down to the east balkans
"In short no Prima facie archaelogical evidence exist of a migration up the vistula to the black sea shores"
— Halsall, Guy (1999, "Review article. Movers and shakers: the barbarians and the fall of Rome. Early medieval europe 8
Walter Goffart disagrees with Wolframs ideas of the migration and goths on many points. He deny the idea of "core of traditions" and the thought the the Goths could have originated in Scandinavia and move all the way down the vistula as "stämme". He reject the entire notion of a gothic history and that we cannot say anything about the goths untill 376, everything before is pure imagination. To quote Goffart about the migration of goths:
"Two very distinct courses are available to us, depending on the quality of evidence and the scale of conjecture and combination we are willing to tolerate. Those very strict in the selection and handling of sources will refuse to go farther afield than to the lands bordering tge Roman Empire in the fourth century A.D. Those however, Who welcome a wider range of documentation and liberally resort to hypothesis and speculation will find it possible and even desirable to reach as far out in space as Scandinavia and as far back in time as before the Christian era. This major difference of approach to the period of Barbarian invasions deserves to be spelled out and eloborated because little is said about it outside German acedemic scene"
— Goffart, Walter (1980), Barbarians and romans A.D. 418-584: The techniques for accomodation
So in short. As to whether or not the Goths origined from Scandinavia is questionable. It cant be denied but neither confirmed. The argumentation of the field of scientist are still going strong and what most want is a new research with the starting point "That no barbarian migration existed unless it can be proven from archeological founds" Problem with todays archeological founds is that they are made with "getica" in the back of the head. So you find what you want to find. The artefacts from the Wielbark area in Cernajachov are seen as proof of the migration but the founds of Cernjachov artefacts in the Wielbark area is seen as a sign of trade. But however, cant it be possible that the wielbark artefacts in Cernjachov are sign of trades and not proof of the migration? The vistuale was one of the biggest trading areas anyhow.
As to the article, I dont think its neccesary to change anything, perhaps add a section about the ongoing discussion and the Heavy critisicm of Getica and the current archealogical findings. But again it depends what View you have on the barbarian migration. I like how the article stress that story is taken from Jordannes so people can decide wether they see Getica as a reliant source.
Ive not created a profile but Im a danish history student at the university of Copenhagen. My course is exactly about this subject and my Teacher is "Arne Søbe Christensen" who has been mentioned aswell and who self question wether the goths originated in Scandinavia. Keep up the good work and the discussion :)
Further reading I recommend: Noble, Thomas (2006) From roman provinces to medieval kingdoms" . Its a collection of different articles from Wolfram to goffart about the Goths. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.164.83.90 ( talk) 21:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
You should get yourself an account and start contributing to the articles. First of all - the devil is in the details. You raise many questions that together show how hard studies in humanistics are in general:
All these points bring in uncertainty about the origins of the Goths, and the more you look into the details, the more easy it is to question everything. However, what most scholars do, I guess, is to put the appearance of the Goths near the Roman borders in the context of the Germanic migrations from Northern Europe, more generally. There were probably many reasons why Scandinavians would like to migrate, since you find a similar exodus during the Viking Age.-- Berig 14:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In Finland there is a small group of cemeteries very similar to the ones Ostrogothia and in the Wielbark culture. This fact as well as numerous Germanic loan-words in Finnish have given birth to a theory of limited Gothic and/or East Scandinavian settlement or at least cultural influence in Finland. Do you think this should be mentioned in this article?-- 130.234.75.20 14:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess that sums up my concern. Jacob Haller 05:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, how do the Goths come into Wikiproject Germany? I wouldn't mind the help but aren't Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Italy, France & Spain more relevent? Jacob Haller 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems the older sections all focus on one question: where did the Goths come from? (which doesn't lend itself to clear answers anyway) and neglected several other questions: who were the Goths? how did they live? etc. (which archaeological evidence can help answer).
I've started short sections of settlement patterns & burial practices. But it seems like most of the article is devoted to perpetually-disputed Swedish-Polish connections much earlier, and very little to the 3rd century, 4th century, or after, or to descriptions of their way of life. Jacob Haller 17:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Quoting from the language section: "Similarly, the Saxon dialects of Germany are hardly closer to Anglo-Saxon than any other West Germanic language that hasn't undergone the High German consonant shift (see Grimm's law), but the tribes themselves are definitely identical." I can't figure out what the last passage means. There are English who are not (upper) Saxon and there are (upper) Saxons who are not English, so the two groups are not identical; rather they derive certain elements of English-ness and Saxon-ness from the common origin. (The same concern applies to Gotho-Scandinavian connections as to Anglo-German ones). Jacob Haller 18:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Both U5a1a & R1b1c9a haplogroups are germanic. U5a1a are Goths and R1b1c9a is Norman/Belgica/Friesian - Celtic/Germanic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.26.143.164 ( talk) 02:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
I haven't encountered this syntagm so far. However, intuitively, I assume it's about words who are paired in two parallel languages in etymological evolution, not words occuring by "expected sound changes" (most words evolve by "expected sound changes" - this is how linguistics works, isn't it?). Therefore if one claims Gutar and Goths are "etymologically identical" he has to show how Goths and Gutar evolved linguistically (or to bring a scholar reference for that). Daizus 16:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Should we create one? It would provide a place to discuss Gothic origins, different models, etc. without giving undue weight on this page (and repeating the discussions on other pages). We would have three main issues (1) the origin of the Baltic Goths (and the importance of the Scandinavian connection), (2) the origin of the Black Sea Goths (and different models: mass migration, smaller migration and Gothic conquest/elite dominance, smaller migration and Gothicization (locals become Goths) and/or Dacian/Sarmationization (Goths become locals), etc.), (3) the origin of the later Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Any thoughts? Jacob Haller 00:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Green, D.H., Language and History in the early Germanic World, pp. 164ff, identifies the Bastarnae as an East-Germanic group, and argues that some East-Germanic speakers had settled the Black Sea area as early as the 2nd Century B.C.E. Jacob Haller 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding (based third-hand) that the prisoners came from Cappadocian, which was part of the Roman Empire, but also from other parts of the Roman Empire as well. Which is why the original "Roman prisoners" seemed like the best option. I'm not sure why we need to specify Cappadocian, why not just say they were "Roman", which is really the most important element in the context of the sentence. -- Stbalbach 23:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the bit that apparently needed a citation because, I believe, if something needs a citation to be considered factual, it might as well not be in the article until it's cited. Make sense? 152.23.196.162 01:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The following is unsourced and makes the article appear zany: Some would argue that the Goths had their origins in the Lost Tribes of Israel. citation needed To date there is not a substantial amount of evidence to support this theory, however, those that support the Goth's origins in the Baltics would have to acknowledge the accounts of the Lost Tribes of Israel being forcibly relocated there by Assyria. citation needed This relocation ocurred almost 1000 years before records of the Goths first surfaced, putting it in the "right" time frame. (The Lost Tribes were believed to have been relocated around 700 BC). citation needed This is just not mainstream material.-- Wetman 14:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Food for thought :) The opposite to the premise may also be valid, i.e., the Tribes of Israel may have also had Gothic members.
Please bear with my convoluted hypothetical analysis. Consider that both the Hittite an Egyptian empires around the time of the exodus were multi-ethnic cosmopolitan empires who drew in professionals of many nationalities. The province of Canaan, situated between (and at times a part of) these two empires was by no means homogenous. The widowed
Mitanni-Egyptian queen
Nefertiti was unable to secure peace and union when the
Hittite prince she was to marry was assasinated en route to Egypt, possibly at the hands of her (hypothetically) adoptive father
Ay, q.v. 'Secrets of the Exodus' book.
According to that book, the tribes of Israel were composed of Judah (former priests of the Egyptian empire who had converted to monotheism under
Akhenaten), and settled strategically closer to Egypt, and the 'Erev-rav' ('common people' of the empire, 'Hebrews'). The Erev-rav had comprised the various layers of the Egyptian (monotheistic [and polytheistic]) bureaucracy under Akhenaten as 'servants' in the sense of 'public servants'. These public servants were multiethnic (e.g. ancestors of the
Masai 'police',
Hittites,
Minoans,
Akkadians, descendants of the
Guti etc.) and skilled. They were not killed due to differences in faith with that of the Egyptian empire, but were escorted in a civilised manner to repopulate the promised border province that the Egyptians had lost.
Later modification of the old testament during the Babylonian captivity distanced literarily the Tribes of Israel from the Egyptian rivals of the Babylonians. The crisis of the 'moving of the people' was that the border province of Canaan was not firmly under Egyptian control, and had to be reconquered by
Seti I aka
Joshua (son of Nun), before the people could settle there in security. This is just a possibility mind you, but one worth considering when venturing into the 'outlier' discussion about Goths and the Lost (non-Judah & -Benjamin) Tribes of Israel, who in this hypothesis are more predominantly defined by adherence to a common faith in one G-d than their ethnicity - perhaps this had something indirectly to do with their later disappearance?
Gabrieli
11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Suggesting spinning off the section "Origin of the Name "Goth" (*Gut-)" as its own article, like Origin of the name Goth. Articles Geat, Gotland and Götaland could link to it, and Goths naturally as well. -- Drieakko 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Possibly also include the articles on the
Guti and
Oium. The connection is hypothetical, but the word Guti is very similar to {*Gut-}. The
Guti utterly destroyed
Akkad around 2215 BC, about 120 years after the last Sag-giga ('black-headed' or 'Sumerian') king was defeated by
Sargon the Great founder of the Semitic Akkadian dynasty.
Jordanes' account in the article on
Oium where the Goths defeat the legendary Egyptian Pharaoh
Sesostris (1291 BC - 1212 BC), apparently a compound of
Ramesses I and
Seti I, who strangely enough are hypothetically
Moses and
Joshua (son of Nun) respectively, according to the book Secrets of the Exodus: The Egyptian Origins of the Hebrew People by Messod Sabbah, Roger Sabbah, transl. Art Banta, and Lois Banta (2004).
The book also mentions Nefertiti (daughter of a priest of the
Mitanni who are a tribe related to the
Guti), influencing her husband Akhenaten and co-founding the monotheistic worship of the solar disk, which leads to the escorted exodus of the monotheistic Egyptians to the frontier provinces in Canaan.
Gabrieli
09:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The only source for early Gothic history is Jordanes' citation needed Getica (finished in 551 or around 1850), citation needed a condensation of the lost twelve-volume history of the Goths written in Italy by Cassiodorus citation needed around 530. Jordanes may not even have had the work at hand to consult from, and this early information should be treated with caution. Cassiodorus was well placed to write of Goths, for he was an essential minister of Theodoric the Great, who apparently had heard some of the Gothic songs that told of their traditional origins.
Several historians, including Peter Heather and Michael Kulikowski, argue that Jordanes' Getica presents a fictional genealogy of Theodoric and fictional history of the Goths for ancient propaganda purposes, and cast doubt on the Scandinavian origin, on the supposed royal dynasties, and on the supposed 4th-Century Kingdom of Ermaneric. [1] [2]
What do you think about adding the section above ? Any obejction ?
References
Can anyone tell me if Gothic was spoken in what became Germany in the Dark Ages? Its never mentionned whether it was, and Im wondering what was spoken there prior to Old High German. 80.192.4.73 13:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I just wondering, do we really Encarta in here? I see a attribution to it [third paragraph] John Manuel- 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A literal reading of Jordanes is definitely a fringe view. The 1490 BC crap should be removed from the intro. Jacob Haller 16:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, yes, yes. Some have you have discovered the ancient source problem. All the sources are like that, you know. If the discovery of a false report makes an author totally unworthy of credibility then we have no ancient history. So, some of most authors has to be discounted, but there is a method. You look for substantiation elsewhere. Right now this article is a bit one-sided; however, I will be addressing that soon. A second approach looks for falsity to be substantiated elsewhere. But what do you do then? Well, if something is shown to be wrong, you discount it. Otherwise you have no reason not to accept it. The principle is familiar to us: innocent until proven guilty. So, until someone shows me that Jordanes is wrong then I believe everything he says. If I do not then there can be no ancient history. All the mediaeval writers write the same way: first the items of tradition or belief, then what the author knows. For the earlier times, we are pretty sure no pharohs of Egypt fought it out with the Goths in the Bronze Age. The names he cites are not Germanic. It appears as though he got some Alanic names and traditions, but that is a theory that would have to be proved. A lot of Jordanes is independently verified. We are as safe as anyone in using that. I see that this is the first acquaintance of some of you with the methods and assumptions of ancient history, or indeed history. I hope that you go further; however, this is not a new field, or an unscientific one, or a hobby field where whatever anyone says goes. Jordanes is pretty standard and so pretty much is incredibility of his earliest events. Best wishes, I hope you go further. Dave ( talk) 00:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Gotar is also like the word gotra meaning race, linege in Sanskrit and originally only referred to people of Vedic birth right.
The same is with 'Jaata' which is like the word Jute. Jaata also is like Gotra meaning birthright, linege. The word jati is related. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 10:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is so pathetically POV it's not even funny. NOTHING about music, graveyards, poetry, darkness or tips on how to dye your hair black and stuff. You think Goths are old fashioned? There is Goth websites and everything. You people are not living in the real world, we're nothing like this article anymore. Try hanging out at a Goth club for a weekend (if anyone asks you for blood, run) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.72.187 ( talk) 00:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
To the literatur list you should add the two dissertations by Arne Søby Christensen (Cassiodur, Jordanes and the muth of the Goths (2002) and Ingemar Nordgren (2004), The Well Spring of the Goths. 87.57.197.10 ( talk) 21:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)Jan Eskildsen