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NOTE ADDED 5 June 2021: Please do not close this RFC. It is on-going.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Based on previous RFCs and discussions, may we now move ahead with the new Intro proposal of
Krakkos (4th column
here, discussion
here), and the new Origins section drafted by me (2nd column
here) which would replace the current 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3? --
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
06:43, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Pinging. Berig, Nishidani, Obenritter, Peter K Burian, Bloodofox, Ermenrich, Srnec, Carlstak, Mnemosientje, SMcCandlish, Yngvadottir, Alcaios, Pfold, North8000, Sea Ane feedback please.
@ Andrew Lancaster: Talk:Goths#RfC on proposal to simplify the Prehistory, Early history and Movement towards the Black Sea sections and merge them into a single Origins and early history section has now been closed with the conclusion that there is a consensus to trim the early history sections and use this proposal as a basis for trimming and further refinement. Are you alright with moving ahead with this previous proposal? Krakkos ( talk) 09:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a rough consensus to use the proposed text as a basis for further refinement. Whether the participants in this discussion believe such refinement should take place in a sandbox, in the article directly, or on this talk page is not clearly established below but can be determined through the normal editing process." -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Adding a note and also responding to Andrew's question, the caveat in my post is because I have not taken the deep dive needed to thoroughly learn the article, proposed changes and situation well enough to give full-fledged opinions. If y'all think that extra input is needed, I'd be happy to do that. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, I took a deeper dive. My first more detailed comment is on the half of the RFC dealing with the lead. I think that the specific question is substitution of the linked "column 4" for the current lead. IMO this would be a good move, with the understanding that this doesn't "lock in" the whole thing but leaves it open to tweaks. The lead should be a summary of the article. In comparison. the current lead is more of a blizzard of factoids that is hard to absorb and the column 4 looks like a easier-to-read summary. Since the lead should be a summary of the article, there should not be anything in the lead that is not in the article so removal of the old lead should not result in any loss of material. But you might want to double check that or possibly you did already. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 21:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following which was added by what I understand to be a single topic IP editor with an interest in Swedish topics:
DNA evidence seems to be consistent with the traditional perspective described by Jordanes of a Scandinavian migration. The DNA comparison shows the Gothic populations DNA structure is similar to southern Scandinavia. It is unclear if the Oksywie culture was replaced by the Goths or created by the Goths. Before the Gothic immigration, the DNA of Central Europe was different and more diverse. Exactly how this migration happened could not be reached. The study published in 2019 seem to confirm the notion that Goths originated in southern Sweden and Denmark. But the study also cites more research in archaeology and genetics is needed to gain a greater understanding of exactly how the Gothic migrations influenced the history of the region. The study studied populations from different periods and DNA structure in Northern Poland changed due to an influx of immigrants. In Kowalewko in Poland, the Gothic newcomers 200 AD had significantly different DNA from previous locals that inhabited the region.
[1]
[2]
The spread of the Scandinavian I1 Dna group is also closely linked to the Migration period during the collapse of the Roman empire. Current research shows that before the Goths migrated Haplogroup I-M253 was confined exclusively to Scandinavia. The migration of the Goths resulted in the spread of the genes outside of Scandinavia for the first time. Goths buried in Italy shared genetic affinity with modern-day Scandinavians also having a dominant I1 gene. [3] |
References
|
After many previous discussions, similar material was previously removed by Srnec. Concerned raised included WP:UNDUE, WP:PRIMARY, WP:SCIRS, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH. Archived discussions: [8], [9], [10]. The section being expanded this way is also recently agreed to be one needing trimming, because focus on such speculative topics about pre Goths has been a significant distraction from the main topic [11].-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 07:31, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
discussion with IP editor
|
---|
But the large concentration around Rome is persistent with the Gothic sack of Rome. Over 15 per cent of I1 DNA in modern times. I1 only became dominant around 500 BC in Scandinavia. The fact that modern-day Romans have 15 per cent I1 is probably due to the Goths settling down in Rome. Before the migration period, modern-day Romans lacked I1 DNA. Know they have 15 per cent which is huge and do not indicate a small case migration of elite. The Goths buried in Rome also show Genetic affinity with modern-day Scandinavians with a dominant I1 gene not common in Germany Poland, or elsewhere. The DNA evidence suggests the Goths did migrate en mass from Scandinavia. Modern-day British populations also have 15 per cent I1 DNA thanks to the Vikings and Anglo Saxon migration from Scandinavia. Fifteen per cent around Rome is a very high number if you take into consideration 1500 years have passed and that modern-day Romans have so much Scandinavian heritage. Where did it come from if not the Goths? The German populations have 15 per cent so if they had sacked Rome the I1 spread would have been lower. For example, France or modern-day Frenchmen— conquered by the more German Franks have far less I1 DNA.
Only a pure Scandinavian group could have made Rome so incredibly Scandinavian. The Genetic evidence shows the Goths are almost identical to modern Swedes. Also the fact that the DNA
They also found almost all Goths remains buried in Italy being genetically related to Scandinavians. https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Sorry but I1 is very Scandinavian it is true that the gene has been found before. But it was not until the late Nordic bronze age it started to get broadly spread. Also, it is only dominant in Scandinavia and Northern Germany. Also, Scandinavians have 35-40 per cent I1 DNA. So it is very Scandinavian even if it have old origins it was not dominant in any region in Europe until the late Scandinavian Bronze age. Also, the Lombards could be a source of I1 in Rome. So maybe the Goths were R1A or another haplogroup... But calling it a none Scandinavian gene is pretty ignorant. Lombards could be the source of I1 in Italy. It only became dominant around 500 BC for unknown reasons. It also spread to Germany when the Celts got weakened by the Ceasars invasion. All Germanic people groups originate in Scandinavia or Northern Germany. Ceasar's invasion of the Gaul weakened, them so the Germanic peoples could invade. It is not dominant in any region except Scandinavia and Finland. The groups' origins are disputed but did not start to gain dominance until 500 before christ so all of its spread over the rest of Europe is contemporary history and all migrations that spread it is recorded in Southern European history. R1A also seem to be widespread in Italy so the Goths also had German ancestry. However, the Italian studies showed a great affinity with Scandinavians. In Gothic graves. For example, before the Anglo-Saxon invasion, no I1 was present in Britain. Ireland has no I1 except in Dublin due to it being founded by Norse settlers. Before that I1 was small or marginal. The clustered in Turkey comes from Varangian guards during medieval periods large swaths of Norse males migrated to the Byzantine empire to serve as guards. Northwestern Spain was the final refugee from the Islamic invasion. Sicily got I1 from Norman invasions. The cluster around Sankt Petersburg is due to Norse settlers using it as a trading hub. Laying the foundation for the Rus states. The Germanic migrations dispersed I1 lineages to Britain (Anglo-Saxons), Belgium (Franks, Saxons), France (Franks, Visigoths and Burgundians), South Germany (Franks, Alamanni, Suebi, Marcomanni, Thuringii and others), Switzerland (Alamanni, Suebi, Burgundians), Iberia (Visigoths, Suebi and Vandals), Italy (Goths, Vandals, Lombards), Austria and Slovenia (Ostrogoths, Lombards, Bavarians), Ukraine and Moldova (Goths), as well as around Hungary and northern Serbia (Gepids). The I1 found among the Poles (6%), Czechs (11%), Slovaks (6%) and Hungarians (8%) is also the result of centuries of influence from their German and Austrian neighbours. The relatively high frequency of I1 around Serbia and western Bulgaria (5% to 10%) could be owed to the Goths who settled in the Eastern Roman Empire in the 3rd and 4th centuries. In Turkey and Russia unlike Rome, England or Germany it was not a full-scale migration therefore I1 did not become widespread only some Varangian guardsmen acting as police in Greece and Russia and settled and married Greek or Russian women. The I1 spread is closely linked with recorded historical events. Sicily have a concentration probably due to Norrman settlers moving in taking the houses of Muslim Arabs after the Norman conquest. Also Vladimir the Great seem to have also been descended from the I1 subgroup. But all this information in the article does not have to be written in the article of course. Just the fact that the origins lie in Scandinavia from I1 and that Goths probably were not intermixing that much with close by populations. Or it could be Lombards in the graveyard. The other things I mentioned about modern Rome citizens having a lot of I1 admixtures was just to prove my point. Amorim, Carlos (2018-09-11). "Understanding 6th-century barbarian social organization and migration through paleogenomics". Nature Communications. 9 (1): 3547. Bibcode:2018NatCo...9.3547A. doi:10.1038/s41467-018-06024-4. PMC 6134036. PMID 30206220.
But if the editors do not want to include DNA research in the article let's ignore my edits. But they are consistent with what I read in a research paper published by six genetic experts. No DNA edits I get it. I Will not try it again. |
The notion that genetic evidence should be excluded from this article, when it appears in so many others, strikes me as very peculiar, if not outright special pleading. The genetic evidence is solid evidence, not "speculative ideas" as you call it. -- Elphion ( talk) 15:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
"The collected results seem to be consistent with the historical narrative that assumed that the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia; then, at least part of the Goth population moved south through the territory of contemporary Poland towards the Black Sea region, where they mixed with local populations and formed the Chernyakhov culture... [T]he genetic relationships reported here... support the opinion that southern Scandinavia was the homeland of the Goths." – Stolarek, I.; Handschuh, L.; Juras, A.; et al. (May 1, 2019). "Goth migration induced changes in the matrilineal genetic structure of the central-east European population". Scientific Reports. 9 (1). 6737. Bibcode: 2019NatSR...9.6737S. doi: 10.1038/s41598-019-43183-w. PMC 6494872. PMID 31043639.
I thought haplogroups were pretty consistent with ancestry. Especially when Genetic specialists in Poland agree they are true. Also, Goths had a central European or polish variant of R1A that also seem to be spread out along Spain and Italy in a similar cluster with I1. I also used an Italian source examining actual remains of Gothic warriors in Italian graveyards from 500 BP exactly after the sack of Rome by the Goths and Lombards. Taken from a Gothic burial in Rome. I1 at least seem to be the dominant group in the populations only in modern Swedes, Danes and in Norway I1 is dominant in Goths too... At least those found in the graveyards of Rome.
[1]
Also one similar examination done by genetic experts in Italy 2020 seems to confirm the Scandinavian origins of the Goths done in 2020
[2]
References
"Goths are first mentioned occupying territory in what is now Poland in the first century AD... The history of people labelled "Goths" thus spans 700 years... [T]he Wielbark culture.... took shape in the middle of the first century AD... in Pomerania and lands either side of the lower Vistula... [T]his is the broad area where our few literary sources place a group called Goths at this time... Tacitus Germania 43-4 places them not quite on the Baltic coast; Ptolemy Geography 3.5.8 locates them east of the Vistula; Strabo Geography 7.1.3 (if Butones should be emended to Gutones) broadly agrees with Tacitus... The mutually confirmatory information of ancient sources and the archaeological record both suggest that Goths can first be identified beside the Vistula." – Heather, Peter (1998). The Goths. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 0-631-209-32-8.
"The Gothic name appears for the first time between A.D. 16 and 18. We do not, however, find the strong form Guti but only the derivative form Gutones... [W]henever the Gutones and Guti are mentioned, these terms refer to the Goths on the Continent before their migration to the Black Sea." – Wolfram, Herwig (1990). History of the Goths. Translated by Dunlap, Thomas J. University of California Press. pp. 20, 23. ISBN 0520069838.
Classic WP:IDHT. When you are exposed, this is what you do: post large irrelevant quotes, and always the same ones, and always pretending you forget previous discussions about removed bits where you have "(...)". (You are sometimes joining bits that are pages apart or even in different chapters, and you always moving key qualifications. You also pick old books over new ones, questionable wordings from abstracts that disagree with the main bodies, compressed wordings from short dictionary articles instead of highly cited works by the same authors, and so on.) This is disruptive editing Krakkos. There is no other reason for you to be quoting the same large blocks of text over and over and over and over without any reference to previous discussion. Most importantly, these quotes are entirely irrelevant to the points made above. FWIW:
p.44: the acculturation of the Goths to the Pontic area and their ethnogenesis "at the shores of the Black Sea" are simultaneous and mutually depent processes: In other words, we should speak of the Goths only after the Gutonic immigrants had become "Scythians" at the Black Sea.
While none of this is relevant to the comment you were replying to, the cherry picking is stunning.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
More notes about DNA from IP editor
|
---|
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997?fbclid=IwAR1334H3S4xx3NN8V3mFLdBnYJVGSwZs1jgnU4MzIEduN2YyoA08yh7Xb6I This new research paper published 2021 proves without any reasonable doubt that some Goths at least had a DNA structure similar to modern Swedes. Done by the University of Fribourg. But those Scandinavian guys living in Poland might be something else... But according to the poles doing this archaeology project they were considered to be archaeologically Gothic and a majority of Individuals have I1 or R1B haplogroup. The Pla de l'Horta villa near Girona in Spain is located in close proximity to a necropolis with a series of tombs associated with the Visigoths. The grave goods and the typology of the tombs point to a Visigothic origin of the individuals. A small number of individuals buried at the site were sampled for DNA analysis in a 2019 study. One of the samples belonged to haplogroup I1.[50] This finding is in accordance with the common ancestral origin of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. I read your article but your assumption is wrong your studying an ancient haplogroup but I1 is very new only 3500 years. The Visigothic royalty also had dominant I1 ancestry. According to studies done Spain by archaeologists in Spain. They DNA tested Visigothic nobles graves and they also had a dominant I1 groupings in 2019. [1] https://www.geni.com/projects/I-CTS6364-Y-DNA/36181 quote: "Current DNA research indicates that I1 was close to non-existent in most of Europe outside of Scandinavia and northern Germany before the Migration Period."
References
|
I still watch this from a previous bot-invited RFC visit. So I don't have the depth & expertise here that y'all do and so my comments are from just a quick overview. I agree that it should be kept out. It looks like "somebody's research and interpretation of it" rather than something broad and solid enough (with secondary analysis) to be in an encyclopedia article. Various policies point out that type of a problem with this.North8000 ( talk) 13:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Even if we come to some clear action plans soon, it seems this topic might come back again, either here or on related articles, and discussions has been anything-but-helped by lumping big quotes into the normal talk page. So I hope this workpage helps: Talk:Goths/Quotes.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Joe Flats 123, I think all or most of the material you've added is not specifically about Goths but about what we modern people call "Germanic peoples"? Ancient authors did provide distinct descriptions of the Goths, but I think you are using descriptions of other Germanic peoples? Roman authors repeatedly insisted that the Goths were a Scythian people in terms of their customs etc. For example, a major part of the new material is a block of text from Mauricius about the "Fair haired peoples" such as Franks and Lombards. These are western European groups who the Romans did not associate with the Goths. The Strategikon has a different section for discussion about Scythian peoples, and in Book IV this work makes clear that Goths, as in other works, are Scythian. Are you not using the wrong section of the Strategikon? To give an example of a difference, while the fair haired peoples can easily be drawn out of formation by simulated retreats, the Goths are experts in performing such simulated retreats. And rather than being happy to dismount, like the fair-haired peoples, this work claims that because they grow up on horseback, the Scythians are not happy walking around on foot. If on the other hand we say this is not explicitly enough about Goths, that's fine, but we can't use descriptions of western europeans as a stand-in, surely?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Andrew Lancaster I think you are right for the Strategikon section, i will delete that. However, i know that the paragraph or two before that talks about weapons and armour explicitly for the Goths, so i wont delete that. :) -- Joe Flats 123
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
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![]() | There is a special page where scholarly quotes about the pre-3rd-century origins of the Goths have been collected, in order to avoid large blocks of quotations being pasted repeatedly and disruptively into this talk-page. Please, instead of pasting large repetitive blocks of text, try to link to the quotes page, or to previous versions of the same discussions in the archives etc. |
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NOTE ADDED 5 June 2021: Please do not close this RFC. It is on-going.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Based on previous RFCs and discussions, may we now move ahead with the new Intro proposal of
Krakkos (4th column
here, discussion
here), and the new Origins section drafted by me (2nd column
here) which would replace the current 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3? --
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
06:43, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Pinging. Berig, Nishidani, Obenritter, Peter K Burian, Bloodofox, Ermenrich, Srnec, Carlstak, Mnemosientje, SMcCandlish, Yngvadottir, Alcaios, Pfold, North8000, Sea Ane feedback please.
@ Andrew Lancaster: Talk:Goths#RfC on proposal to simplify the Prehistory, Early history and Movement towards the Black Sea sections and merge them into a single Origins and early history section has now been closed with the conclusion that there is a consensus to trim the early history sections and use this proposal as a basis for trimming and further refinement. Are you alright with moving ahead with this previous proposal? Krakkos ( talk) 09:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a rough consensus to use the proposed text as a basis for further refinement. Whether the participants in this discussion believe such refinement should take place in a sandbox, in the article directly, or on this talk page is not clearly established below but can be determined through the normal editing process." -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Adding a note and also responding to Andrew's question, the caveat in my post is because I have not taken the deep dive needed to thoroughly learn the article, proposed changes and situation well enough to give full-fledged opinions. If y'all think that extra input is needed, I'd be happy to do that. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, I took a deeper dive. My first more detailed comment is on the half of the RFC dealing with the lead. I think that the specific question is substitution of the linked "column 4" for the current lead. IMO this would be a good move, with the understanding that this doesn't "lock in" the whole thing but leaves it open to tweaks. The lead should be a summary of the article. In comparison. the current lead is more of a blizzard of factoids that is hard to absorb and the column 4 looks like a easier-to-read summary. Since the lead should be a summary of the article, there should not be anything in the lead that is not in the article so removal of the old lead should not result in any loss of material. But you might want to double check that or possibly you did already. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 21:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following which was added by what I understand to be a single topic IP editor with an interest in Swedish topics:
DNA evidence seems to be consistent with the traditional perspective described by Jordanes of a Scandinavian migration. The DNA comparison shows the Gothic populations DNA structure is similar to southern Scandinavia. It is unclear if the Oksywie culture was replaced by the Goths or created by the Goths. Before the Gothic immigration, the DNA of Central Europe was different and more diverse. Exactly how this migration happened could not be reached. The study published in 2019 seem to confirm the notion that Goths originated in southern Sweden and Denmark. But the study also cites more research in archaeology and genetics is needed to gain a greater understanding of exactly how the Gothic migrations influenced the history of the region. The study studied populations from different periods and DNA structure in Northern Poland changed due to an influx of immigrants. In Kowalewko in Poland, the Gothic newcomers 200 AD had significantly different DNA from previous locals that inhabited the region.
[1]
[2]
The spread of the Scandinavian I1 Dna group is also closely linked to the Migration period during the collapse of the Roman empire. Current research shows that before the Goths migrated Haplogroup I-M253 was confined exclusively to Scandinavia. The migration of the Goths resulted in the spread of the genes outside of Scandinavia for the first time. Goths buried in Italy shared genetic affinity with modern-day Scandinavians also having a dominant I1 gene. [3] |
References
|
After many previous discussions, similar material was previously removed by Srnec. Concerned raised included WP:UNDUE, WP:PRIMARY, WP:SCIRS, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH. Archived discussions: [8], [9], [10]. The section being expanded this way is also recently agreed to be one needing trimming, because focus on such speculative topics about pre Goths has been a significant distraction from the main topic [11].-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 07:31, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
discussion with IP editor
|
---|
But the large concentration around Rome is persistent with the Gothic sack of Rome. Over 15 per cent of I1 DNA in modern times. I1 only became dominant around 500 BC in Scandinavia. The fact that modern-day Romans have 15 per cent I1 is probably due to the Goths settling down in Rome. Before the migration period, modern-day Romans lacked I1 DNA. Know they have 15 per cent which is huge and do not indicate a small case migration of elite. The Goths buried in Rome also show Genetic affinity with modern-day Scandinavians with a dominant I1 gene not common in Germany Poland, or elsewhere. The DNA evidence suggests the Goths did migrate en mass from Scandinavia. Modern-day British populations also have 15 per cent I1 DNA thanks to the Vikings and Anglo Saxon migration from Scandinavia. Fifteen per cent around Rome is a very high number if you take into consideration 1500 years have passed and that modern-day Romans have so much Scandinavian heritage. Where did it come from if not the Goths? The German populations have 15 per cent so if they had sacked Rome the I1 spread would have been lower. For example, France or modern-day Frenchmen— conquered by the more German Franks have far less I1 DNA.
Only a pure Scandinavian group could have made Rome so incredibly Scandinavian. The Genetic evidence shows the Goths are almost identical to modern Swedes. Also the fact that the DNA
They also found almost all Goths remains buried in Italy being genetically related to Scandinavians. https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Sorry but I1 is very Scandinavian it is true that the gene has been found before. But it was not until the late Nordic bronze age it started to get broadly spread. Also, it is only dominant in Scandinavia and Northern Germany. Also, Scandinavians have 35-40 per cent I1 DNA. So it is very Scandinavian even if it have old origins it was not dominant in any region in Europe until the late Scandinavian Bronze age. Also, the Lombards could be a source of I1 in Rome. So maybe the Goths were R1A or another haplogroup... But calling it a none Scandinavian gene is pretty ignorant. Lombards could be the source of I1 in Italy. It only became dominant around 500 BC for unknown reasons. It also spread to Germany when the Celts got weakened by the Ceasars invasion. All Germanic people groups originate in Scandinavia or Northern Germany. Ceasar's invasion of the Gaul weakened, them so the Germanic peoples could invade. It is not dominant in any region except Scandinavia and Finland. The groups' origins are disputed but did not start to gain dominance until 500 before christ so all of its spread over the rest of Europe is contemporary history and all migrations that spread it is recorded in Southern European history. R1A also seem to be widespread in Italy so the Goths also had German ancestry. However, the Italian studies showed a great affinity with Scandinavians. In Gothic graves. For example, before the Anglo-Saxon invasion, no I1 was present in Britain. Ireland has no I1 except in Dublin due to it being founded by Norse settlers. Before that I1 was small or marginal. The clustered in Turkey comes from Varangian guards during medieval periods large swaths of Norse males migrated to the Byzantine empire to serve as guards. Northwestern Spain was the final refugee from the Islamic invasion. Sicily got I1 from Norman invasions. The cluster around Sankt Petersburg is due to Norse settlers using it as a trading hub. Laying the foundation for the Rus states. The Germanic migrations dispersed I1 lineages to Britain (Anglo-Saxons), Belgium (Franks, Saxons), France (Franks, Visigoths and Burgundians), South Germany (Franks, Alamanni, Suebi, Marcomanni, Thuringii and others), Switzerland (Alamanni, Suebi, Burgundians), Iberia (Visigoths, Suebi and Vandals), Italy (Goths, Vandals, Lombards), Austria and Slovenia (Ostrogoths, Lombards, Bavarians), Ukraine and Moldova (Goths), as well as around Hungary and northern Serbia (Gepids). The I1 found among the Poles (6%), Czechs (11%), Slovaks (6%) and Hungarians (8%) is also the result of centuries of influence from their German and Austrian neighbours. The relatively high frequency of I1 around Serbia and western Bulgaria (5% to 10%) could be owed to the Goths who settled in the Eastern Roman Empire in the 3rd and 4th centuries. In Turkey and Russia unlike Rome, England or Germany it was not a full-scale migration therefore I1 did not become widespread only some Varangian guardsmen acting as police in Greece and Russia and settled and married Greek or Russian women. The I1 spread is closely linked with recorded historical events. Sicily have a concentration probably due to Norrman settlers moving in taking the houses of Muslim Arabs after the Norman conquest. Also Vladimir the Great seem to have also been descended from the I1 subgroup. But all this information in the article does not have to be written in the article of course. Just the fact that the origins lie in Scandinavia from I1 and that Goths probably were not intermixing that much with close by populations. Or it could be Lombards in the graveyard. The other things I mentioned about modern Rome citizens having a lot of I1 admixtures was just to prove my point. Amorim, Carlos (2018-09-11). "Understanding 6th-century barbarian social organization and migration through paleogenomics". Nature Communications. 9 (1): 3547. Bibcode:2018NatCo...9.3547A. doi:10.1038/s41467-018-06024-4. PMC 6134036. PMID 30206220.
But if the editors do not want to include DNA research in the article let's ignore my edits. But they are consistent with what I read in a research paper published by six genetic experts. No DNA edits I get it. I Will not try it again. |
The notion that genetic evidence should be excluded from this article, when it appears in so many others, strikes me as very peculiar, if not outright special pleading. The genetic evidence is solid evidence, not "speculative ideas" as you call it. -- Elphion ( talk) 15:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
"The collected results seem to be consistent with the historical narrative that assumed that the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia; then, at least part of the Goth population moved south through the territory of contemporary Poland towards the Black Sea region, where they mixed with local populations and formed the Chernyakhov culture... [T]he genetic relationships reported here... support the opinion that southern Scandinavia was the homeland of the Goths." – Stolarek, I.; Handschuh, L.; Juras, A.; et al. (May 1, 2019). "Goth migration induced changes in the matrilineal genetic structure of the central-east European population". Scientific Reports. 9 (1). 6737. Bibcode: 2019NatSR...9.6737S. doi: 10.1038/s41598-019-43183-w. PMC 6494872. PMID 31043639.
I thought haplogroups were pretty consistent with ancestry. Especially when Genetic specialists in Poland agree they are true. Also, Goths had a central European or polish variant of R1A that also seem to be spread out along Spain and Italy in a similar cluster with I1. I also used an Italian source examining actual remains of Gothic warriors in Italian graveyards from 500 BP exactly after the sack of Rome by the Goths and Lombards. Taken from a Gothic burial in Rome. I1 at least seem to be the dominant group in the populations only in modern Swedes, Danes and in Norway I1 is dominant in Goths too... At least those found in the graveyards of Rome.
[1]
Also one similar examination done by genetic experts in Italy 2020 seems to confirm the Scandinavian origins of the Goths done in 2020
[2]
References
"Goths are first mentioned occupying territory in what is now Poland in the first century AD... The history of people labelled "Goths" thus spans 700 years... [T]he Wielbark culture.... took shape in the middle of the first century AD... in Pomerania and lands either side of the lower Vistula... [T]his is the broad area where our few literary sources place a group called Goths at this time... Tacitus Germania 43-4 places them not quite on the Baltic coast; Ptolemy Geography 3.5.8 locates them east of the Vistula; Strabo Geography 7.1.3 (if Butones should be emended to Gutones) broadly agrees with Tacitus... The mutually confirmatory information of ancient sources and the archaeological record both suggest that Goths can first be identified beside the Vistula." – Heather, Peter (1998). The Goths. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 0-631-209-32-8.
"The Gothic name appears for the first time between A.D. 16 and 18. We do not, however, find the strong form Guti but only the derivative form Gutones... [W]henever the Gutones and Guti are mentioned, these terms refer to the Goths on the Continent before their migration to the Black Sea." – Wolfram, Herwig (1990). History of the Goths. Translated by Dunlap, Thomas J. University of California Press. pp. 20, 23. ISBN 0520069838.
Classic WP:IDHT. When you are exposed, this is what you do: post large irrelevant quotes, and always the same ones, and always pretending you forget previous discussions about removed bits where you have "(...)". (You are sometimes joining bits that are pages apart or even in different chapters, and you always moving key qualifications. You also pick old books over new ones, questionable wordings from abstracts that disagree with the main bodies, compressed wordings from short dictionary articles instead of highly cited works by the same authors, and so on.) This is disruptive editing Krakkos. There is no other reason for you to be quoting the same large blocks of text over and over and over and over without any reference to previous discussion. Most importantly, these quotes are entirely irrelevant to the points made above. FWIW:
p.44: the acculturation of the Goths to the Pontic area and their ethnogenesis "at the shores of the Black Sea" are simultaneous and mutually depent processes: In other words, we should speak of the Goths only after the Gutonic immigrants had become "Scythians" at the Black Sea.
While none of this is relevant to the comment you were replying to, the cherry picking is stunning.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
More notes about DNA from IP editor
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https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997?fbclid=IwAR1334H3S4xx3NN8V3mFLdBnYJVGSwZs1jgnU4MzIEduN2YyoA08yh7Xb6I This new research paper published 2021 proves without any reasonable doubt that some Goths at least had a DNA structure similar to modern Swedes. Done by the University of Fribourg. But those Scandinavian guys living in Poland might be something else... But according to the poles doing this archaeology project they were considered to be archaeologically Gothic and a majority of Individuals have I1 or R1B haplogroup. The Pla de l'Horta villa near Girona in Spain is located in close proximity to a necropolis with a series of tombs associated with the Visigoths. The grave goods and the typology of the tombs point to a Visigothic origin of the individuals. A small number of individuals buried at the site were sampled for DNA analysis in a 2019 study. One of the samples belonged to haplogroup I1.[50] This finding is in accordance with the common ancestral origin of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. I read your article but your assumption is wrong your studying an ancient haplogroup but I1 is very new only 3500 years. The Visigothic royalty also had dominant I1 ancestry. According to studies done Spain by archaeologists in Spain. They DNA tested Visigothic nobles graves and they also had a dominant I1 groupings in 2019. [1] https://www.geni.com/projects/I-CTS6364-Y-DNA/36181 quote: "Current DNA research indicates that I1 was close to non-existent in most of Europe outside of Scandinavia and northern Germany before the Migration Period."
References
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I still watch this from a previous bot-invited RFC visit. So I don't have the depth & expertise here that y'all do and so my comments are from just a quick overview. I agree that it should be kept out. It looks like "somebody's research and interpretation of it" rather than something broad and solid enough (with secondary analysis) to be in an encyclopedia article. Various policies point out that type of a problem with this.North8000 ( talk) 13:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Even if we come to some clear action plans soon, it seems this topic might come back again, either here or on related articles, and discussions has been anything-but-helped by lumping big quotes into the normal talk page. So I hope this workpage helps: Talk:Goths/Quotes.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Joe Flats 123, I think all or most of the material you've added is not specifically about Goths but about what we modern people call "Germanic peoples"? Ancient authors did provide distinct descriptions of the Goths, but I think you are using descriptions of other Germanic peoples? Roman authors repeatedly insisted that the Goths were a Scythian people in terms of their customs etc. For example, a major part of the new material is a block of text from Mauricius about the "Fair haired peoples" such as Franks and Lombards. These are western European groups who the Romans did not associate with the Goths. The Strategikon has a different section for discussion about Scythian peoples, and in Book IV this work makes clear that Goths, as in other works, are Scythian. Are you not using the wrong section of the Strategikon? To give an example of a difference, while the fair haired peoples can easily be drawn out of formation by simulated retreats, the Goths are experts in performing such simulated retreats. And rather than being happy to dismount, like the fair-haired peoples, this work claims that because they grow up on horseback, the Scythians are not happy walking around on foot. If on the other hand we say this is not explicitly enough about Goths, that's fine, but we can't use descriptions of western europeans as a stand-in, surely?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Andrew Lancaster I think you are right for the Strategikon section, i will delete that. However, i know that the paragraph or two before that talks about weapons and armour explicitly for the Goths, so i wont delete that. :) -- Joe Flats 123