![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=37 (A bit mixed up with other bands, most notably bands of other genres easily mistakable for Symphonic Metal, Ie: Nightwish)
http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic%20metal (Another site listing many Symphonic Metal bands, and proves the point that sites arent generally reliable normally, as its mixed many Power/Gothic/Gothic Doom and Evanescene into that)
http://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4041/an/0/page/0 (Thats a forum thread on Symphonic Metal and again says what ive spent the last week saying)
http://www.epinions.com/content_4100366468 (Again listing a whole bunch of Symphonic Metal bands. Has a couple of obviously non Symphonic Metal bands in there, but the point remains)
http://www.ancientspirit.de/reviews/cdreview/m/inhalt.htm (Another band archiver, more accurate than most. Noticable how they list many Gothic Doom bands under 'Dark Metal')
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Cradle+Of+Filth (A little bio on Cradle of Filth to back up one of my points)
http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=78 (Same as before, but listing Gothic Doom, managed to contradict itself and post a Symphonic Metal band or two in there, haha)
http://www.doom-metal.com/history.html (A whole site about Doom Metal)
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/3443907/a/Metal+Years:+Gothic+Doom.htm Has Gothic Meta/Gothic Doom/Other Doom and Other Genres on that cd)
http://www.earpollution.com/nov99/coolbyproxy/coolbyproxy.html (A page on all Doom Subdiversions including Gothic Doom)
Thats all ill list for now, i dont have massive amounts of time so the list is itself, only a few sites. But that should show my point, that the general consensus is in agreement with me. And that websites updated by fans, especially younger ones, are often contradctionary and wrong. ~~ Leyasu
Dante, you missed the point, again. I said the websites i got from Google, which you claimed didnt exist, are as unreliable, POV, and speculative as your own. The point was, they can favour either argument, and, often contradict each other when they agree on certain other things. That is the point. ~~ Leyasu
http://www.metal-archives.com/
Read it. Especially the part 'Please delete my band(s) from your site. I don't want this information to appear on your website.'
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=32:amg/info_pages/a_about.html
Pretty much what the bands websites done, and is often wrong, or as they claim 'word-of'mouth', much like Dante claims most of the time as factual accuracy (its the dog again).
Thats what i got in a rush since my last post. I will find more detailed stuff that they have said before, as and when i have the time. ~~ Leyasu
I've noticed a few more things about the revised version that might make it more readable.
-- Idont Havaname 04:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Aspite the recent arguments with me and Dante that just do not seem to cease over the same issue, however static or poorly argued, i have edited the temp page in a attempt to make it flow better. However as nobody told me WHY it didnt flow well in their eyes, i have had to take a shot in the dark as to why. Thus i juggled about the 'Sounds And Constructs' part and the top part. Ive deleted, minorly reworded, and slightly added to what was there. I also rearranged the order in what things come up, so it should go
It should easily go from one part into the next, and link their relevance easily. Can people please next time they pick fault, explain 'WHAT' gives it that fault, thank you ~~ Leyasu |
Dante has raised the point of a place having a good reputation among people unaffiliated with something, as being a good source on it. I would like to point out the errors in this.
Im going to continue editing the Temp page, until the article is best it can be. And Dante's argument is no better than mine, he cant criticise someone for the argument of 'so and so told me so', when he is making the exact same argument. Dante needs to help make a better article, and stop clinging to his possesive nature of ownership. ~~ Leyasu
Alls i have to say to that, is that the user IDont can speak for himself. And if the user in question, has anything to say to me, he will leave me messages on my talk page, which he has done several times regarding things i needed council on. And again, several times you have said 'Noting/Nowhere', and 'No-one ever', and have been shown as wrong. Stop making claims yourself that are childish and foolish. Your argument isnt coming across as anything intrested in making a good article, its coming far more across as someone who is possesed with the ownership of the original, and trying to force what they want something to be, over what it is. If that is not your intention, i strongly suggest you rethink the way you make your argument. I am stumbling around learning how to improve Articles as i go to their utmost best, and you Dante, have done nothing constructive, nor helpfull, other than seemingly whine, complain and completely bitch that someone has edited an article that you wrote. I reference you to this, that IDont refrenced me to before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles. ~~ Leyasu
Sorry to inform you that i have not claimed ownership at any point and have asked several times for help and constructive critiscism in the revised article so it may be the best it can be. You have only made argument of 'mine is better' with bad reasoning and old points already turned over. I am in no way in owership of it, i however do expect reasoning when someone critiscises something better than 'so and so told me so' schoolyard propoganda. (Please escuse my lacking spelling abilities). ~~ Leyasu
Compare the symphonic metal page to the Gothic metal/Temp, and the Temp-page is largely inaccurate. (Also note that I did not write the summary for the symphonic metal page.)
The atmosphere rarely follows the deep morbidity of doom metal unlike its origin; gothic doom, or the upbeat nature of its sister genre; symphonic metal.
Symphonic metal is not known for having an "upbeat nature", nor is it a "sister genre" of gothic metal.
A softer genre known as symphonic metal had evolved in the mid- to late- 1990s from gothic metal bearing strong similarities to its predecessor, with bands led by female singers.
Also wrong. The symphonic metal page noted that the term is not a subgenre but rather a term to describe metal with "symphonic elements". ( power metal and black metal were noted as the two most known genres for using "symphonic" elements.) There are probably some instances where gothic metal "crosses over" with symphonic metal elements (mentioned in the current version) but no source will validate that it evolved from gothic metal. -- Danteferno 02:45 2 December (UTC)
See the other points i made above, to go with the rest, especially the one about thigns contradicting, i also said its a few websites i got from a quick browse on google.
So heres a handfull more i just got from, browsing google.
http://www.modarchive.com/artists/cage/ http://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5226/Main/4041 http://www.heavy-metalinks.com/official_F.html http://www.nuclearblast-musicshop.de/genres.php?genre_filter=32 http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=7874 http://www.metal1.info/reviews/n.php http://www.rockdetector.com/genrelocationsearch.do?genre=Progressive+Metal http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/reviews.asp?albumID=2578&bhcp=1 http://www.dealtime.com/xPR-Once_ECD_Nightwish http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/205459 http://www.metal-rules.com/zine/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=54 http://www.metal-rules.com/interviews/Sascha.htm http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&hs=CcI&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:Symphonic+metal
Thats all, ill have more when i have time. ~~ Leyasu
I see the flow as being fine now. Ive edited the opening paragraph to cover the debates such as these further. It makes sense for that to be done, because then it shows the arguments like these that happen, and also explains the contradictions of Archival pages. I kept it 'short n sweet' as to over explain everything often annoys people. ~~ Leyasu
'First, there's control of the article. Some contributors feel very possessive about articles they have donated to this project. Some go so far as to defend them against all intruders.'
'All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see Wikipedia:Copyrights for details). If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it. [emphasis added]'
'Although working on an article does not entitle one to "own" the article, it is still important to respect the work of your fellow contributors. When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against them - regardless of whether they "own" the article or not. See also Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Assume good faith.'
Also see this link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Megalomaniacal_point_of_view
While editors' points of view are certainly welcomed, please remember that Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy with regards to writing articles. To that effect, editors should work with other editors despite their conflicting egos and points of view. Through collaboration and presentation of either a neutral point of view or all points of view article, Wikipedia helps to illustrate good information.
Wikipedia as a whole is not especially respectful of contributions, since anyone can edit. This makes praise and criticism of edits all the more pronounced when it does occur. Many people forget that criticizing an edit is easily conflated with insulting the person who made it—and so they are unnecessarily harsh on the giving end and unnecessarily sensitive on the receiving end. What starts with one uncivil remark becomes an exchange of them, until people are no longer interested in improving articles and instead focus on "triumphing" over the "enemy". This is not what Wikipedia is about.
An objection I've heard around here lately, mainly from Danteferno, is that the revised version at Gothic metal/Temp really jumps around. Reading through it more closely (I just did a copyedit of it a few minutes ago), I'm starting to see what he means. I think that, with regards to the history of both gothic metal and gothic doom, it's best to treat both of them as one genre (where gothic doom is a prominent subgenre of gothic metal and doom metal) and to merge the history sections together.
It's probably not clear what I mean by this, so I'll explain further. Currently the revision starts off defining the genre (good), and then it goes into two sections of history (the Gothic Doom (The Beginnings) section and Gothic Metal (History)). From there it goes into Common misconceptions, then back into more history. To make the article more readable, I suggest moving the Common misconceptions section back, so that it is just before the list of bands. So the article would then have this kind of structure... (I'll omit the actual text of the article here, to make this post much shorter.)
Sounds, constructs, and lyrics (header)
History (header)
The beginnings (1983-1993) (sub-header - use ===Title here===)
Gothic metal today (1993-present) (sub-header)
Common misconceptions (header)
List of gothic metal bands (header)
Also - and I think this goes in more to what Dante was telling me was wrong with it - the second history section ("Gothic Metal (History)...") has a discussion of symphonic metal, but then other fusion genres are mentioned later. This might be another reason why it's better to merge those sections.
-- Idont Havaname 04:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The beginning section opens stating that the Gothic Metal genre originated in Europe in the 1990s as an outgrowth of doom metal. This is only half right - The rest of the article reveals the early 80's as the first signs of gothic metal (Christian Death (US), Celtic Frost (CH), and Samhain (US)) and that the bands originated both in Europe and the U.S. Perhaps it is true that gothic metal has a bigger scene and is more popular in Europe, but that doesn't give excuse to say it originated there. This fallacy seems to repeat itself in the article.
Sounds, constructs and lyrics - I'm not sure this is a very good title - perhaps "Style, Lyrics, and Themes". But constructs - eh? I also think examples need to be provided for the following: New Age/Dark Ages, Victorian, Edwardian, Roman, or modern eras. Also, the genre has not been limited to these themes, a point I will get to later.
History - the beginnings (1983-1990) Moonspell are still mentioned erroneously as being a band from the Scandinavian region that progressed from death/black - all sources - including their website (heck, everyone knows) show they are based in Lisbon, Portugal, which is in Western Europe, not Scandinavia. In addition, Moonspell have stayed fairly conservative with their style - particularly the lead singer (Fernando Ribero) who still uses death grunts every now and then. Once they are removed from this section, Only Theater of Tragedy remain, and Tiamat, Lake Of Tears (and perhaps Charon (Finland) who began as death metal and turned to the gothic metal genre) would be the ones that will fit this geographic progession the most.
Also, for the Gathering section, "Mimic" should be changed to "influence". Mimic = negative.
Type O Negative deserve equal mention to any of the above bands. They are to America's gothic metal scene what Moonspell are to Europe's.
Gothic metal today (1993-present) Again, the "borrow from black metal/death metal guitar" parts is not citable and has no examples. Symphonic metal is not an outgrowth of gothic metal. Later on, the article mentions that it is indeed part of a "fusion". The symphonic metal article explains what the definition is quite well.
Idont havaname brought up the fact that many bands have not stayed in the same style - the original edit describes this well, and that should remain no matter what (perhaps there could be elaboration about bands that changed to styles beyond the genre).
Common misconceptions By saying these themes: "morbidity, religious themes, gothic fashion, vampirism, and satanism" are not a part of gothic metal bands would be invalidating nearly everything mentioned. Likewise (as I mentioned earlier) themes are not limited to a particular group.
Digressing a little bit, each county/region does seem to have a distinct (but not defining) style of gothic metal. Finland seems to be more apt to progressive/power/melodic metal (evident by bands Charon and Entwine) and the German/Swiss region seems to be fond of the usage of industrial effects (Crematory, Lacrimosa, and Samael). Finally, American Gothic Metal seems to be more in tune with the sludgier aspects (Type O Negative and Christian Death). How would everyone feel if the article described each particular region, as well as its origins, progenitors, instigators, etc? -- Danteferno 01:40 7 December (UTC)
I recognise the need for SOME edits, perhaps. But such things as Moonspell is proclaimed as Scandanaian? Last i said, the death metal and black metal were best known in Scandanvia. Any edits i see need doing of this, i will make in the morning. Leyasu 03:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
How could that be? I don´t think that symphonic metal was derived at all from Gothic Metal. When symphonic metal cames to my mind, I don´t know why, there comes a band along with it named Therion :-). Therion was a Death Metal band, and is to me THE representative symphonic metal band. Allright, many bands that are called symphonic metal bands (because symphonic elements are so prominently used in their songs) are from the Gothic Metal subgenre. It doesn´t make valid any claim that Symphonic Metal was derived from Gothic Metal in my humble opinion. The symphonic metal has another meaning for it, and do not treat it as a subgenre of metal (although, in the case of Therion, I would label them a Symphonic Metal band. Contradction? You bet!). regards Loudenvier 20:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
He gave is opinion, he didnt say i was wrong. Remember that. He also has to make his own reply to what i say, you do not speak for others. You need to stop assuming everyone supports your claims, when they dont. Leyasu 23:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering this section, I think it is incorrect: "In the 1990s, a group of young bands in Northern England borrowed from the early gothic metal sound of the 1980s and incorporated it with the slow, downtuned guitar dirges of Black Sabbath. Gothic Doom, or DoomDeath, as it was often called, would be regarded as a second stage of the subgenre. Bands most notable for this style included Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Anathema."
True, many goth metal bands probably have been influenced by doom death metal bands, esp Paradise Lost's Gothic album is often mention. Nevertheless, Neither Paradise Lost, not Anathema can ever be considered gothic metal. MDB have in the past included some gothic elements in their music, but to call them gothic metal would be overstated. Also the term gothic doom is not associated with doom/death metal. Spearhead 08:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
To many bands that have a lead female singer a listed as Gothic Metal bands when in many case they are not Gothic at all. Bands such as Lunatica, Visions of Atlantis, Nightwish, and Edenbridge have never really had any thing to do with Goth Metal at all. A band such as Leaves` Eyes is more Folk Metal then Gothic do to what the songs are about.
Best way to do it. Look at more then just the words and the music. A band such as Leaves Eyes well there music may sound gothic but if you really look at the subject matter it falls into Folk Metal. There first CD is and 2nd CD have to do with many myths and true story of there homeland. Also bands such as Epica are listed right a long side Cradle Of Filth and Type O Negative. Epcia does not even have the same sound. That I believe is the one problem with the Goth Metal part is that to many of the bands don't really either have the same sound or lyrics at times. It would be best if really for Bands such as Epica, After Forever, The Sins Of Thy Beloved, Trail of Tears, Tristania, etc be listed as BnB Metal bands then Gothic metal. One good reason is for that is also because Tristania as really changed there music. Same with After Forever and even Trail of Tears. There are few other bands I don't know if you have hear of the band Ram-Zet adds in ever gerne of metal you can think of so many gernes that they can't be list under just one other then maybe BnB Metal. Another thing to look at is what it says
That can be said about all metal bands. Otep and Arch enemy get into some of the same themes as Type O Negtive or Epica would. But they are cleary not goth metal. The best thing to do would be to start Beauty n Beast metal genra and take out many of the bands that use both male and female singers.
More and more people are now posting, backing up the points i have made several times. As such, i made a final edit to the revised temp (anyone want to copyedit it?) in which ive tried to increase the flow of the article with the layout of the history section, and tried to add a little history of Gothic Doom in there. I also changed a few things, due extra research i did, and based on popular view of some things, as to avoid arguments. I intend at the end of the week, to post the revised edition, unless others have any other reasonable edits to be made to it. If not, due to the increasing number of people complaining, the article having warrented a 'needing attention' label, and the fact this argument has gone on long enough, i will post it on Monday The 19th.
If there is anymore comments and suggestions for the revised version, or editations people would like to make, please do so during this time, so a polished and good prose version of the article can be posted. Leyasu 05:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=37 (A bit mixed up with other bands, most notably bands of other genres easily mistakable for Symphonic Metal, Ie: Nightwish)
http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic%20metal (Another site listing many Symphonic Metal bands, and proves the point that sites arent generally reliable normally, as its mixed many Power/Gothic/Gothic Doom and Evanescene into that)
http://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4041/an/0/page/0 (Thats a forum thread on Symphonic Metal and again says what ive spent the last week saying)
http://www.epinions.com/content_4100366468 (Again listing a whole bunch of Symphonic Metal bands. Has a couple of obviously non Symphonic Metal bands in there, but the point remains)
http://www.ancientspirit.de/reviews/cdreview/m/inhalt.htm (Another band archiver, more accurate than most. Noticable how they list many Gothic Doom bands under 'Dark Metal')
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Cradle+Of+Filth (A little bio on Cradle of Filth to back up one of my points)
http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=78 (Same as before, but listing Gothic Doom, managed to contradict itself and post a Symphonic Metal band or two in there, haha)
http://www.doom-metal.com/history.html (A whole site about Doom Metal)
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/3443907/a/Metal+Years:+Gothic+Doom.htm Has Gothic Meta/Gothic Doom/Other Doom and Other Genres on that cd)
http://www.earpollution.com/nov99/coolbyproxy/coolbyproxy.html (A page on all Doom Subdiversions including Gothic Doom)
Thats all ill list for now, i dont have massive amounts of time so the list is itself, only a few sites. But that should show my point, that the general consensus is in agreement with me. And that websites updated by fans, especially younger ones, are often contradctionary and wrong. ~~ Leyasu
Dante, you missed the point, again. I said the websites i got from Google, which you claimed didnt exist, are as unreliable, POV, and speculative as your own. The point was, they can favour either argument, and, often contradict each other when they agree on certain other things. That is the point. ~~ Leyasu
http://www.metal-archives.com/
Read it. Especially the part 'Please delete my band(s) from your site. I don't want this information to appear on your website.'
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=32:amg/info_pages/a_about.html
Pretty much what the bands websites done, and is often wrong, or as they claim 'word-of'mouth', much like Dante claims most of the time as factual accuracy (its the dog again).
Thats what i got in a rush since my last post. I will find more detailed stuff that they have said before, as and when i have the time. ~~ Leyasu
I've noticed a few more things about the revised version that might make it more readable.
-- Idont Havaname 04:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Aspite the recent arguments with me and Dante that just do not seem to cease over the same issue, however static or poorly argued, i have edited the temp page in a attempt to make it flow better. However as nobody told me WHY it didnt flow well in their eyes, i have had to take a shot in the dark as to why. Thus i juggled about the 'Sounds And Constructs' part and the top part. Ive deleted, minorly reworded, and slightly added to what was there. I also rearranged the order in what things come up, so it should go
It should easily go from one part into the next, and link their relevance easily. Can people please next time they pick fault, explain 'WHAT' gives it that fault, thank you ~~ Leyasu |
Dante has raised the point of a place having a good reputation among people unaffiliated with something, as being a good source on it. I would like to point out the errors in this.
Im going to continue editing the Temp page, until the article is best it can be. And Dante's argument is no better than mine, he cant criticise someone for the argument of 'so and so told me so', when he is making the exact same argument. Dante needs to help make a better article, and stop clinging to his possesive nature of ownership. ~~ Leyasu
Alls i have to say to that, is that the user IDont can speak for himself. And if the user in question, has anything to say to me, he will leave me messages on my talk page, which he has done several times regarding things i needed council on. And again, several times you have said 'Noting/Nowhere', and 'No-one ever', and have been shown as wrong. Stop making claims yourself that are childish and foolish. Your argument isnt coming across as anything intrested in making a good article, its coming far more across as someone who is possesed with the ownership of the original, and trying to force what they want something to be, over what it is. If that is not your intention, i strongly suggest you rethink the way you make your argument. I am stumbling around learning how to improve Articles as i go to their utmost best, and you Dante, have done nothing constructive, nor helpfull, other than seemingly whine, complain and completely bitch that someone has edited an article that you wrote. I reference you to this, that IDont refrenced me to before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles. ~~ Leyasu
Sorry to inform you that i have not claimed ownership at any point and have asked several times for help and constructive critiscism in the revised article so it may be the best it can be. You have only made argument of 'mine is better' with bad reasoning and old points already turned over. I am in no way in owership of it, i however do expect reasoning when someone critiscises something better than 'so and so told me so' schoolyard propoganda. (Please escuse my lacking spelling abilities). ~~ Leyasu
Compare the symphonic metal page to the Gothic metal/Temp, and the Temp-page is largely inaccurate. (Also note that I did not write the summary for the symphonic metal page.)
The atmosphere rarely follows the deep morbidity of doom metal unlike its origin; gothic doom, or the upbeat nature of its sister genre; symphonic metal.
Symphonic metal is not known for having an "upbeat nature", nor is it a "sister genre" of gothic metal.
A softer genre known as symphonic metal had evolved in the mid- to late- 1990s from gothic metal bearing strong similarities to its predecessor, with bands led by female singers.
Also wrong. The symphonic metal page noted that the term is not a subgenre but rather a term to describe metal with "symphonic elements". ( power metal and black metal were noted as the two most known genres for using "symphonic" elements.) There are probably some instances where gothic metal "crosses over" with symphonic metal elements (mentioned in the current version) but no source will validate that it evolved from gothic metal. -- Danteferno 02:45 2 December (UTC)
See the other points i made above, to go with the rest, especially the one about thigns contradicting, i also said its a few websites i got from a quick browse on google.
So heres a handfull more i just got from, browsing google.
http://www.modarchive.com/artists/cage/ http://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5226/Main/4041 http://www.heavy-metalinks.com/official_F.html http://www.nuclearblast-musicshop.de/genres.php?genre_filter=32 http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=7874 http://www.metal1.info/reviews/n.php http://www.rockdetector.com/genrelocationsearch.do?genre=Progressive+Metal http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/reviews.asp?albumID=2578&bhcp=1 http://www.dealtime.com/xPR-Once_ECD_Nightwish http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/205459 http://www.metal-rules.com/zine/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=54 http://www.metal-rules.com/interviews/Sascha.htm http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&hs=CcI&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:Symphonic+metal
Thats all, ill have more when i have time. ~~ Leyasu
I see the flow as being fine now. Ive edited the opening paragraph to cover the debates such as these further. It makes sense for that to be done, because then it shows the arguments like these that happen, and also explains the contradictions of Archival pages. I kept it 'short n sweet' as to over explain everything often annoys people. ~~ Leyasu
'First, there's control of the article. Some contributors feel very possessive about articles they have donated to this project. Some go so far as to defend them against all intruders.'
'All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see Wikipedia:Copyrights for details). If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it. [emphasis added]'
'Although working on an article does not entitle one to "own" the article, it is still important to respect the work of your fellow contributors. When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against them - regardless of whether they "own" the article or not. See also Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Assume good faith.'
Also see this link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Megalomaniacal_point_of_view
While editors' points of view are certainly welcomed, please remember that Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy with regards to writing articles. To that effect, editors should work with other editors despite their conflicting egos and points of view. Through collaboration and presentation of either a neutral point of view or all points of view article, Wikipedia helps to illustrate good information.
Wikipedia as a whole is not especially respectful of contributions, since anyone can edit. This makes praise and criticism of edits all the more pronounced when it does occur. Many people forget that criticizing an edit is easily conflated with insulting the person who made it—and so they are unnecessarily harsh on the giving end and unnecessarily sensitive on the receiving end. What starts with one uncivil remark becomes an exchange of them, until people are no longer interested in improving articles and instead focus on "triumphing" over the "enemy". This is not what Wikipedia is about.
An objection I've heard around here lately, mainly from Danteferno, is that the revised version at Gothic metal/Temp really jumps around. Reading through it more closely (I just did a copyedit of it a few minutes ago), I'm starting to see what he means. I think that, with regards to the history of both gothic metal and gothic doom, it's best to treat both of them as one genre (where gothic doom is a prominent subgenre of gothic metal and doom metal) and to merge the history sections together.
It's probably not clear what I mean by this, so I'll explain further. Currently the revision starts off defining the genre (good), and then it goes into two sections of history (the Gothic Doom (The Beginnings) section and Gothic Metal (History)). From there it goes into Common misconceptions, then back into more history. To make the article more readable, I suggest moving the Common misconceptions section back, so that it is just before the list of bands. So the article would then have this kind of structure... (I'll omit the actual text of the article here, to make this post much shorter.)
Sounds, constructs, and lyrics (header)
History (header)
The beginnings (1983-1993) (sub-header - use ===Title here===)
Gothic metal today (1993-present) (sub-header)
Common misconceptions (header)
List of gothic metal bands (header)
Also - and I think this goes in more to what Dante was telling me was wrong with it - the second history section ("Gothic Metal (History)...") has a discussion of symphonic metal, but then other fusion genres are mentioned later. This might be another reason why it's better to merge those sections.
-- Idont Havaname 04:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The beginning section opens stating that the Gothic Metal genre originated in Europe in the 1990s as an outgrowth of doom metal. This is only half right - The rest of the article reveals the early 80's as the first signs of gothic metal (Christian Death (US), Celtic Frost (CH), and Samhain (US)) and that the bands originated both in Europe and the U.S. Perhaps it is true that gothic metal has a bigger scene and is more popular in Europe, but that doesn't give excuse to say it originated there. This fallacy seems to repeat itself in the article.
Sounds, constructs and lyrics - I'm not sure this is a very good title - perhaps "Style, Lyrics, and Themes". But constructs - eh? I also think examples need to be provided for the following: New Age/Dark Ages, Victorian, Edwardian, Roman, or modern eras. Also, the genre has not been limited to these themes, a point I will get to later.
History - the beginnings (1983-1990) Moonspell are still mentioned erroneously as being a band from the Scandinavian region that progressed from death/black - all sources - including their website (heck, everyone knows) show they are based in Lisbon, Portugal, which is in Western Europe, not Scandinavia. In addition, Moonspell have stayed fairly conservative with their style - particularly the lead singer (Fernando Ribero) who still uses death grunts every now and then. Once they are removed from this section, Only Theater of Tragedy remain, and Tiamat, Lake Of Tears (and perhaps Charon (Finland) who began as death metal and turned to the gothic metal genre) would be the ones that will fit this geographic progession the most.
Also, for the Gathering section, "Mimic" should be changed to "influence". Mimic = negative.
Type O Negative deserve equal mention to any of the above bands. They are to America's gothic metal scene what Moonspell are to Europe's.
Gothic metal today (1993-present) Again, the "borrow from black metal/death metal guitar" parts is not citable and has no examples. Symphonic metal is not an outgrowth of gothic metal. Later on, the article mentions that it is indeed part of a "fusion". The symphonic metal article explains what the definition is quite well.
Idont havaname brought up the fact that many bands have not stayed in the same style - the original edit describes this well, and that should remain no matter what (perhaps there could be elaboration about bands that changed to styles beyond the genre).
Common misconceptions By saying these themes: "morbidity, religious themes, gothic fashion, vampirism, and satanism" are not a part of gothic metal bands would be invalidating nearly everything mentioned. Likewise (as I mentioned earlier) themes are not limited to a particular group.
Digressing a little bit, each county/region does seem to have a distinct (but not defining) style of gothic metal. Finland seems to be more apt to progressive/power/melodic metal (evident by bands Charon and Entwine) and the German/Swiss region seems to be fond of the usage of industrial effects (Crematory, Lacrimosa, and Samael). Finally, American Gothic Metal seems to be more in tune with the sludgier aspects (Type O Negative and Christian Death). How would everyone feel if the article described each particular region, as well as its origins, progenitors, instigators, etc? -- Danteferno 01:40 7 December (UTC)
I recognise the need for SOME edits, perhaps. But such things as Moonspell is proclaimed as Scandanaian? Last i said, the death metal and black metal were best known in Scandanvia. Any edits i see need doing of this, i will make in the morning. Leyasu 03:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
How could that be? I don´t think that symphonic metal was derived at all from Gothic Metal. When symphonic metal cames to my mind, I don´t know why, there comes a band along with it named Therion :-). Therion was a Death Metal band, and is to me THE representative symphonic metal band. Allright, many bands that are called symphonic metal bands (because symphonic elements are so prominently used in their songs) are from the Gothic Metal subgenre. It doesn´t make valid any claim that Symphonic Metal was derived from Gothic Metal in my humble opinion. The symphonic metal has another meaning for it, and do not treat it as a subgenre of metal (although, in the case of Therion, I would label them a Symphonic Metal band. Contradction? You bet!). regards Loudenvier 20:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
He gave is opinion, he didnt say i was wrong. Remember that. He also has to make his own reply to what i say, you do not speak for others. You need to stop assuming everyone supports your claims, when they dont. Leyasu 23:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering this section, I think it is incorrect: "In the 1990s, a group of young bands in Northern England borrowed from the early gothic metal sound of the 1980s and incorporated it with the slow, downtuned guitar dirges of Black Sabbath. Gothic Doom, or DoomDeath, as it was often called, would be regarded as a second stage of the subgenre. Bands most notable for this style included Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Anathema."
True, many goth metal bands probably have been influenced by doom death metal bands, esp Paradise Lost's Gothic album is often mention. Nevertheless, Neither Paradise Lost, not Anathema can ever be considered gothic metal. MDB have in the past included some gothic elements in their music, but to call them gothic metal would be overstated. Also the term gothic doom is not associated with doom/death metal. Spearhead 08:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
To many bands that have a lead female singer a listed as Gothic Metal bands when in many case they are not Gothic at all. Bands such as Lunatica, Visions of Atlantis, Nightwish, and Edenbridge have never really had any thing to do with Goth Metal at all. A band such as Leaves` Eyes is more Folk Metal then Gothic do to what the songs are about.
Best way to do it. Look at more then just the words and the music. A band such as Leaves Eyes well there music may sound gothic but if you really look at the subject matter it falls into Folk Metal. There first CD is and 2nd CD have to do with many myths and true story of there homeland. Also bands such as Epica are listed right a long side Cradle Of Filth and Type O Negative. Epcia does not even have the same sound. That I believe is the one problem with the Goth Metal part is that to many of the bands don't really either have the same sound or lyrics at times. It would be best if really for Bands such as Epica, After Forever, The Sins Of Thy Beloved, Trail of Tears, Tristania, etc be listed as BnB Metal bands then Gothic metal. One good reason is for that is also because Tristania as really changed there music. Same with After Forever and even Trail of Tears. There are few other bands I don't know if you have hear of the band Ram-Zet adds in ever gerne of metal you can think of so many gernes that they can't be list under just one other then maybe BnB Metal. Another thing to look at is what it says
That can be said about all metal bands. Otep and Arch enemy get into some of the same themes as Type O Negtive or Epica would. But they are cleary not goth metal. The best thing to do would be to start Beauty n Beast metal genra and take out many of the bands that use both male and female singers.
More and more people are now posting, backing up the points i have made several times. As such, i made a final edit to the revised temp (anyone want to copyedit it?) in which ive tried to increase the flow of the article with the layout of the history section, and tried to add a little history of Gothic Doom in there. I also changed a few things, due extra research i did, and based on popular view of some things, as to avoid arguments. I intend at the end of the week, to post the revised edition, unless others have any other reasonable edits to be made to it. If not, due to the increasing number of people complaining, the article having warrented a 'needing attention' label, and the fact this argument has gone on long enough, i will post it on Monday The 19th.
If there is anymore comments and suggestions for the revised version, or editations people would like to make, please do so during this time, so a polished and good prose version of the article can be posted. Leyasu 05:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)