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Why do we refer to some people as "goths" (i.e. Someone who identifies with goth subculture, has macabre interests and wears black clothing)and "Vandals" (As in someone who is anti-social and engages in "Vandalism"). Is there any information as to say why these terms persist into modern day usage? Are the origins for modern usage dated or in anyway related to Gothic and Vandal history? -- WallytheWizard ( talk) 13:49, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, coverage of 'Barbarian' military institutions has to start somewhere (though the classical/medieval split gets in the way). I haven't had the time to work on the subsections I'm familiar with, and don't have the expertise to work on the others. Jacob Haller 20:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to type the Gothic (th) or (hw) letters in the Roman alphabet. Jacob Haller 06:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
please give the page numbers in the books you cite. Wandalstouring 19:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
take a look at the leidang article (the English version is poor, the Scandinavians are better) on germanic military organization. I don't know who wrote these translations, but as long as he doesn't explicitly prove that the Gothic armies were modelled after the Roman armies, it is absolutely misleading to use specific Roman vocabulary. Wandalstouring 20:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to get touchy, since you've added some really helpful material, but imho, "theories on the origin and ethnic identity," isn't really necessary. It belongs in the Goths article but does it connect to Gothic army structures, military institutions, etc.? Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest either (1) a short section on Gothic armies in the 1st & 2nd centuries or (2) a short section considering Germanic and Alanic influences on the later (3rd and 4th Century) armies. It's still debated whether the Goths were a distinct Germanic group within Gothic society/the Chernyakhov Culture or the Goths describe the whole society, fusing native and Germanic customs (which leads to problems with Slavic origins, but explains the Gothic evidence). Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Huh? This makes it sound like another empire. Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 11:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
... the description turns out to be a deliberately expanded version of the account of Ermaneric that can still be read in Ammianus. Rather thin narratives of supposed victories, together with a list of Gothic equivalents for names common to classical ethnography and some Biblical references have been used to fill out Ammianus' account. The Getica's Ermaneric has been intentionally recast as a Gpothic precursor to Attila: the ruler of 'all the Scythian and German nations'. ... Ermaneric was used there to link the ancestral line of Theodoric the Great with that of Eutharic ... the real extend of Ermaneric's kingdom remains an open question.
archaeologists have identified six Chernyakhov sites as political centers of some kind on the basis of size, fortification, and topography. Five have been found on the territory of the former Soviet Union - Basmachka, Alexandrovka, Novie Gorodok, Rumarov and Sovari - the sixth is a re-used Roman fort at Pietroasa in Romania.
A more powerful objection to the existence of one large fourth-century kingdom arises out of reflections ipon exactly how vast it would have been. It would have encompassed the vast majority ofthe Goths (ten out of the 12 known Gothic groups), and would certtainly have been much more powerful than the contemporary Tervingi (the remaining two groups). It would even have commanded greater resources of Gothic manpower than the kingdom-founding Visigoths and Ostrogoths of the fifth century. This being so, the Greuthungi, occupying lands at no great distance from the Roman frontier, ought to have been the major focus of Roman foreign policy in the lower Danubian region. The Emperor Valens fought some of them in 369 (AM 27.5.6) but otherwise the Greuthungi barely intrude into the narrative of fourth-century Gotho-Roman relations (see below). It is deiificult to believe that sucha vast Gothic political unit could have left so little trace in what is a fairly substantial historical record.
please define 'sword'. The east Germanic warriors did have double-edged weapons that are commonly called swords and they did have much cheaper single edged weapons of differing length that are sometimes called swords, but were much more common than the double-edged versions. Wandalstouring 10:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
(Admittedly theory-laden, especially in the first paragraph.)
In the 3rd Century, some Germanic people of the Baltic Sea followed part of the Amber route along the Vistula and Bug rivers and settled among the Dacians, Sarmatians, and other peoples of the Black Sea steppes. These Germanic people brought their name and language to the Gothic people who emerged in the 3rd century.
The Gothic people had divided into two or more groups by the end of the 3rd Century. These groups lasted from the late 3rd Century to the late 4th Century. The Thervingi lived between the Danube and the Carpathians west of the Dnestr river; the Greuthungi, and possibly other groups, lived east of the Dnestr river.
Jordanes, a mid 6th Century historian describes a large Greuthung kingdom in the late 4th century, but Ammianus Marcellinus, a late 4th Century historian, does not record this. Many modern historians doubt that it was ever particularly extensive.
This Gothic society seems to have broken apart through internal strife and Hunnic raids. As a result several groups sought refuge in the Roman Empire; two of the more successful groups, the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, absorbed smaller groups and gained independence within the Roman Empire. Another group, the Crimean Goths survived on the Black Sea. The Vandals and Burgundians shared similar histories.
The Visigothic and Burgundian kingdoms in Gaul fell to Clovis' Frankish invasions in the early 6th Century; the Vandal kingdom in north Africa, and the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and Illyria fell to Justinian I's Byzantine invasions by the mid 6th Century. The Visigothic kingdom in Hispania survived (despite losing most of their old Gallic territory) until the Islamic conquest of Hispania in the early 8th Century.
(So, what do you think?) Jacob Haller 22:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Green 2000, Language and History in the Early Germanic World, pp. 164ff, claims that the Bastarnae were east-Germanic, and east-Germanic speakers had settled the Black Sea area since the 2nd Century BCE. Jacob Haller 02:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Updated version:
In the 3rd Century, some Germanic people of the Baltic Sea followed the Vistula, Bug, and Dnestr rivers and settled among the Dacians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, and other peoples of the Black Sea steppes. These Germanic people brought their name and language to the Gothic people who emerged in the 3rd century.
The Gothic people had divided into two or more groups by the end of the 3rd Century. These groups lasted from the late 3rd Century to the late 4th Century. The Thervingi lived between the Danube and the Carpathians west of the Dnestr river; the Greuthungi, and possibly other groups, lived east of the Dnestr river.
Jordanes, a mid 6th Century historian describes a large Greuthung kingdom in the late 4th century, but Ammianus Marcellinus, a late 4th Century historian, does not record this. Many modern historians doubt that it was ever particularly extensive (and suggest several smaller kingdoms).
This Gothic society faced internal strife and Hunnish attacks in the late 4th Century. As a result several groups sought refuge in the Roman Empire; two of the more successful groups, the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, absorbed smaller groups and gained independence within the Roman Empire. Another group, the Crimean Goths survived on the Black Sea. The Vandals and Burgundians shared similar histories.
The Visigothic and Burgundian kingdoms in Gaul fell to Clovis' Frankish invasions in the early 6th Century; the Vandal kingdom in north Africa, and the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and Illyria fell to Justinian I's Byzantine invasions by the mid 6th Century. The Visigothic kingdom in Hispania survived (despite losing most of their old Gallic territory) until the Islamic conquest of Hispania in the early 8th Century. Jacob Haller 15:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
the article structure needs to be improved. telling first what an army looked like and several chapters later what its purpose was leads the reader into confusion. Find a better solution. Wandalstouring 12:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why history when there is a page on the Goths already and your versions are incomplete if not misleading? Why write about the history at all when you are so far off the article about the Goths..? There are clear links to Sweden both earlier than your history starts and later with documented contacs. Also, why did they keep so strongly to their tradition of their origins being scandinavian as supposed to slav? Nilsnorway ( talk) 11:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nilsnorway ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt the authors account (it reads like based on tombs). The problem is probably that he concludes the equipment of the soldiers from what was found in tombs, although in tombs was given equipment that could be spared, not what was invaluable (swords). Try to get another author on the topic and compare it to the finds from weapon offerings(a religious ceremony to annihilate the complete equipment of a defeated army). These finds are mostly in southern Scandinavia, the poorest Germanic region, here are some examples: the equipment found in Ejsbøl(in between 300-400 AD) of an estimated force of 200 men had 60 of them with swords, knifes, shields, spears and lances, further 140 had javelins, lances and shields. In Vimose (first offering in the first half of the third century and second offering in the fourth century) 85 swords, 325 spearpoints and 775 lancepoints were found, the estimated equipment for a force of 500 men (lances are thrusting weapons, while spears have a longer blade - Celtic spears). It has been common in the bronze age to equip soldiers with two lances/spears, what still influenced the iron-poor Northern European societies. ( Rudolf Simek Götter und Kulte der Germanen ISBN 3-406-50835) Wandalstouring 12:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it best to footnote each entry. All entries come from the glassaries of the works, so the page numbers are not really needed. Dropping the page numbers or subbing 'glossary' for them would allow more consolidation of footnotes. I'm not sure how the coding works. Jacob Haller 19:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at Campaign history of the Roman military or Alcibiades and don't reinvent the wheel. Wandalstouring 22:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
you might want to add a link to this topic and create a seperate article or include it and move the article to a title that better includes the topic. Wandalstouring 18:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You might use a timeline similar to {{ History_of_China}}. The subject mustn't be limited to political entity, you can use it on the development of different types of military equipment for example or different fighting styles, etc. Wandalstouring 18:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I read about a theses that the Germanic numerical system was probably heavily influenced by the Central Asian decimal organization (10 - 100 - 1000) of armies. Perhaps you can find out more about this. Wandalstouring 16:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This section does present a POV not reflected by all sources. Please do more research on whether equipment was adopted by the Germanic tribes or the late Roman army. Wandalstouring 21:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to say that the Romans copied Germanic equipment or vice-versa (though the Romans copied Sarmatian ring-pommel swords) or whether they had different equipment. Ideally we would have sections on Roman equipment, Sarmatian equipment and Vandal and West Germanic equipment. Personally, I don't have that many sources for the non-Roman material or that much time. Jacob Haller 22:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone recommend suitable sources? Jacob Haller 01:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
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Why do we refer to some people as "goths" (i.e. Someone who identifies with goth subculture, has macabre interests and wears black clothing)and "Vandals" (As in someone who is anti-social and engages in "Vandalism"). Is there any information as to say why these terms persist into modern day usage? Are the origins for modern usage dated or in anyway related to Gothic and Vandal history? -- WallytheWizard ( talk) 13:49, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, coverage of 'Barbarian' military institutions has to start somewhere (though the classical/medieval split gets in the way). I haven't had the time to work on the subsections I'm familiar with, and don't have the expertise to work on the others. Jacob Haller 20:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to type the Gothic (th) or (hw) letters in the Roman alphabet. Jacob Haller 06:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
please give the page numbers in the books you cite. Wandalstouring 19:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
take a look at the leidang article (the English version is poor, the Scandinavians are better) on germanic military organization. I don't know who wrote these translations, but as long as he doesn't explicitly prove that the Gothic armies were modelled after the Roman armies, it is absolutely misleading to use specific Roman vocabulary. Wandalstouring 20:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to get touchy, since you've added some really helpful material, but imho, "theories on the origin and ethnic identity," isn't really necessary. It belongs in the Goths article but does it connect to Gothic army structures, military institutions, etc.? Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest either (1) a short section on Gothic armies in the 1st & 2nd centuries or (2) a short section considering Germanic and Alanic influences on the later (3rd and 4th Century) armies. It's still debated whether the Goths were a distinct Germanic group within Gothic society/the Chernyakhov Culture or the Goths describe the whole society, fusing native and Germanic customs (which leads to problems with Slavic origins, but explains the Gothic evidence). Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Huh? This makes it sound like another empire. Jacob Haller 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 11:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
... the description turns out to be a deliberately expanded version of the account of Ermaneric that can still be read in Ammianus. Rather thin narratives of supposed victories, together with a list of Gothic equivalents for names common to classical ethnography and some Biblical references have been used to fill out Ammianus' account. The Getica's Ermaneric has been intentionally recast as a Gpothic precursor to Attila: the ruler of 'all the Scythian and German nations'. ... Ermaneric was used there to link the ancestral line of Theodoric the Great with that of Eutharic ... the real extend of Ermaneric's kingdom remains an open question.
archaeologists have identified six Chernyakhov sites as political centers of some kind on the basis of size, fortification, and topography. Five have been found on the territory of the former Soviet Union - Basmachka, Alexandrovka, Novie Gorodok, Rumarov and Sovari - the sixth is a re-used Roman fort at Pietroasa in Romania.
A more powerful objection to the existence of one large fourth-century kingdom arises out of reflections ipon exactly how vast it would have been. It would have encompassed the vast majority ofthe Goths (ten out of the 12 known Gothic groups), and would certtainly have been much more powerful than the contemporary Tervingi (the remaining two groups). It would even have commanded greater resources of Gothic manpower than the kingdom-founding Visigoths and Ostrogoths of the fifth century. This being so, the Greuthungi, occupying lands at no great distance from the Roman frontier, ought to have been the major focus of Roman foreign policy in the lower Danubian region. The Emperor Valens fought some of them in 369 (AM 27.5.6) but otherwise the Greuthungi barely intrude into the narrative of fourth-century Gotho-Roman relations (see below). It is deiificult to believe that sucha vast Gothic political unit could have left so little trace in what is a fairly substantial historical record.
please define 'sword'. The east Germanic warriors did have double-edged weapons that are commonly called swords and they did have much cheaper single edged weapons of differing length that are sometimes called swords, but were much more common than the double-edged versions. Wandalstouring 10:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
(Admittedly theory-laden, especially in the first paragraph.)
In the 3rd Century, some Germanic people of the Baltic Sea followed part of the Amber route along the Vistula and Bug rivers and settled among the Dacians, Sarmatians, and other peoples of the Black Sea steppes. These Germanic people brought their name and language to the Gothic people who emerged in the 3rd century.
The Gothic people had divided into two or more groups by the end of the 3rd Century. These groups lasted from the late 3rd Century to the late 4th Century. The Thervingi lived between the Danube and the Carpathians west of the Dnestr river; the Greuthungi, and possibly other groups, lived east of the Dnestr river.
Jordanes, a mid 6th Century historian describes a large Greuthung kingdom in the late 4th century, but Ammianus Marcellinus, a late 4th Century historian, does not record this. Many modern historians doubt that it was ever particularly extensive.
This Gothic society seems to have broken apart through internal strife and Hunnic raids. As a result several groups sought refuge in the Roman Empire; two of the more successful groups, the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, absorbed smaller groups and gained independence within the Roman Empire. Another group, the Crimean Goths survived on the Black Sea. The Vandals and Burgundians shared similar histories.
The Visigothic and Burgundian kingdoms in Gaul fell to Clovis' Frankish invasions in the early 6th Century; the Vandal kingdom in north Africa, and the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and Illyria fell to Justinian I's Byzantine invasions by the mid 6th Century. The Visigothic kingdom in Hispania survived (despite losing most of their old Gallic territory) until the Islamic conquest of Hispania in the early 8th Century.
(So, what do you think?) Jacob Haller 22:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Green 2000, Language and History in the Early Germanic World, pp. 164ff, claims that the Bastarnae were east-Germanic, and east-Germanic speakers had settled the Black Sea area since the 2nd Century BCE. Jacob Haller 02:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Updated version:
In the 3rd Century, some Germanic people of the Baltic Sea followed the Vistula, Bug, and Dnestr rivers and settled among the Dacians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, and other peoples of the Black Sea steppes. These Germanic people brought their name and language to the Gothic people who emerged in the 3rd century.
The Gothic people had divided into two or more groups by the end of the 3rd Century. These groups lasted from the late 3rd Century to the late 4th Century. The Thervingi lived between the Danube and the Carpathians west of the Dnestr river; the Greuthungi, and possibly other groups, lived east of the Dnestr river.
Jordanes, a mid 6th Century historian describes a large Greuthung kingdom in the late 4th century, but Ammianus Marcellinus, a late 4th Century historian, does not record this. Many modern historians doubt that it was ever particularly extensive (and suggest several smaller kingdoms).
This Gothic society faced internal strife and Hunnish attacks in the late 4th Century. As a result several groups sought refuge in the Roman Empire; two of the more successful groups, the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, absorbed smaller groups and gained independence within the Roman Empire. Another group, the Crimean Goths survived on the Black Sea. The Vandals and Burgundians shared similar histories.
The Visigothic and Burgundian kingdoms in Gaul fell to Clovis' Frankish invasions in the early 6th Century; the Vandal kingdom in north Africa, and the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and Illyria fell to Justinian I's Byzantine invasions by the mid 6th Century. The Visigothic kingdom in Hispania survived (despite losing most of their old Gallic territory) until the Islamic conquest of Hispania in the early 8th Century. Jacob Haller 15:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
the article structure needs to be improved. telling first what an army looked like and several chapters later what its purpose was leads the reader into confusion. Find a better solution. Wandalstouring 12:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why history when there is a page on the Goths already and your versions are incomplete if not misleading? Why write about the history at all when you are so far off the article about the Goths..? There are clear links to Sweden both earlier than your history starts and later with documented contacs. Also, why did they keep so strongly to their tradition of their origins being scandinavian as supposed to slav? Nilsnorway ( talk) 11:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nilsnorway ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt the authors account (it reads like based on tombs). The problem is probably that he concludes the equipment of the soldiers from what was found in tombs, although in tombs was given equipment that could be spared, not what was invaluable (swords). Try to get another author on the topic and compare it to the finds from weapon offerings(a religious ceremony to annihilate the complete equipment of a defeated army). These finds are mostly in southern Scandinavia, the poorest Germanic region, here are some examples: the equipment found in Ejsbøl(in between 300-400 AD) of an estimated force of 200 men had 60 of them with swords, knifes, shields, spears and lances, further 140 had javelins, lances and shields. In Vimose (first offering in the first half of the third century and second offering in the fourth century) 85 swords, 325 spearpoints and 775 lancepoints were found, the estimated equipment for a force of 500 men (lances are thrusting weapons, while spears have a longer blade - Celtic spears). It has been common in the bronze age to equip soldiers with two lances/spears, what still influenced the iron-poor Northern European societies. ( Rudolf Simek Götter und Kulte der Germanen ISBN 3-406-50835) Wandalstouring 12:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it best to footnote each entry. All entries come from the glassaries of the works, so the page numbers are not really needed. Dropping the page numbers or subbing 'glossary' for them would allow more consolidation of footnotes. I'm not sure how the coding works. Jacob Haller 19:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at Campaign history of the Roman military or Alcibiades and don't reinvent the wheel. Wandalstouring 22:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
you might want to add a link to this topic and create a seperate article or include it and move the article to a title that better includes the topic. Wandalstouring 18:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You might use a timeline similar to {{ History_of_China}}. The subject mustn't be limited to political entity, you can use it on the development of different types of military equipment for example or different fighting styles, etc. Wandalstouring 18:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I read about a theses that the Germanic numerical system was probably heavily influenced by the Central Asian decimal organization (10 - 100 - 1000) of armies. Perhaps you can find out more about this. Wandalstouring 16:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This section does present a POV not reflected by all sources. Please do more research on whether equipment was adopted by the Germanic tribes or the late Roman army. Wandalstouring 21:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to say that the Romans copied Germanic equipment or vice-versa (though the Romans copied Sarmatian ring-pommel swords) or whether they had different equipment. Ideally we would have sections on Roman equipment, Sarmatian equipment and Vandal and West Germanic equipment. Personally, I don't have that many sources for the non-Roman material or that much time. Jacob Haller 22:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone recommend suitable sources? Jacob Haller 01:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)