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This problem is being looked at from the wrong end of the binoculars. The modern expressions of the 'Gothic' as a cultural phenomenon dates from the end of the 18th century. By the 1830s in Britain, France and Germany, and even America, almost everything we associate with that term had already come to existence. French bohemians were eating and drinking out of skulls, dressing in exotic pseudo-Renaissance style, hanging their rooms in black velvet and tinting their windowpanes purple, and decorating their walls with human and animal skulls and antique weapons. This current of dark, sinister Romanticism was known as 'Gothic' fairly early, and never really went away. Even when not fashionable it persisted as an undercurrent, beloved of certain sensibilities. It is a cultural tradition that has had many twists and turns and varieties of expression, while still remaining recognizably 'Gothic' over the nearly 250 years of its existence. So when 'people of a certain age' (over 45) insist that the term 'Goth' apply only to a certain form of post-punk music from the 80s, they are running counter to cultural history. Even in rock music, the emergence of a gothic sensibility predated the formal recognition of 'Goth music' by several years with Black Sabbath and Pentagram. A very solid argument that these bands, and the Doom Metal they inspired in the 80s and 90s, are much more representative of The Gothic Aesthetic than any post-punk band. This is where the 'Trad Goths' fall into a terrible error. The 80s New Wavy drum-machine music they champion is is representative of only a very small and narrow expression of the entire Goth Aesthetic, and they are, without justification, trying to make their preferred music and the scene of their youth paramount, which is absurd, and a mere act of poignant mostalgia for aging Goths ( please understand i am not denigrating this music; many fine albums came out of it).
I believe this can be solved by a change in nomenclature, with 'The Gothic' representing the general aesthetic of this dark romanticism, and its various trends in various arts ought to bexplaced under sub-headings. Thus those who were influenced by 80s Goth are best called either Batcavers or, if American, Death Rockers. Those who melded the influences of Black Sabbath and the Batcavers/Death Rockers can best be described as Gith Metallers or Doom Metallers interchangeably. Those who lean towards Dark Wave and Dark Ambient are Darkwavers, etc. Etc. ALL are 'Gothic' because all draw from that same cultural, artistic tradition in their own way. But the thing to remember is that this tradition, this aesthetic is greater by far than any pop-cultural embodiment-of-the-moment of it. Another source of confusion arises from regarding it as a 'subculture'--which has very specific sociological implications--rather than an artistic aesthetic that one makes one's own. It is far more if an artistic and cultural phenomenon than a sociological one.
Today, we have many people which aren't listening to Gothic music. Consequently they're not goths. The same with fashion. Many people in the dark clubs aren't really dressed in Goth clothes. They look like cyber people, metalheads or "normalos". In my opinion, we're living in a post-goth period.
There is no Gothic band in the charts... without the popularity of Gothic music and without the figureheads of Gothic rock, the Goth culture is dying. -- Diluvien 20:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
My question is not a joke. Today, many people who use the term "goth" aren't not really goth. They're not listening to goth music and they don't look like goths. The goth subculture is inseparably connected to Gothic music and fashion. -- Diluvien 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of all this, subcultures change and mutate, such is the nature of our society, it has happened to a lot of genres, look at stuff like punk and metal. The original punks were nothing like the 80's punks and then again the 90's punks were nothing like the 80's or 70's punks. We evolve rapidly in terms of fashion, goth is the same. In effect it has become a popular term that many people who wouldn't actually be considered goth are labeling themselves as that, rather than calling themselves something else. It has become a broad term now, and is now more readily associated with metal culture. Should be included in the article? maybe, but it is what Goth is now today, this is an encyclopedia so maybe it should be briefly mentioned in a time line, going through developments and changes in the subculture. However this artcile should be based around modern day term goth, with a mention of its previous roots.
-Some dude with crap opinion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.200.223 ( talk) 15:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Industry kids and Spooky kids. A handful of metal kids, influenced by the music industry, which markets Metal music acts such as Nightwish, Cradle of Filth and other crap as "Gothic music". They're irrelevant for the article. -- Breathtaker 23:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure not an expert on Goth, but it seems to me the original Goth subculture roots didn't have to do with the supernatural or the occult. I don't know whether the original Goths tended to be interested in those things, but it seems to me like those things kind of got added on later to what's usually associated with Goth. Seems to me more like originally Goth could be loosely defined as this clique of people who liked a certain variation on punk fashion that was a little toned down from the punk and focused more on wearing black, hung out together, had a certain insiderish, cynical, counter-culture attitude, and listened to a few specific bands that were a little less thuggy, a little more toned-down than the punk bands in general, but who had a common kind of more melodic/mellow sound, that was a little evocative of the mysterious ambience. Seems to me connections of original Goth to the supernatural or occult are made out of ignorance or bad faith. But then, I'm not expert or afficionado. 67.85.225.175 ( talk) 05:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Swan
Goth is not about horror (as in popular culture, film, etc.), it's not about music, it's not about black clothes or whiteface. Well, it is, but obliquely. It's certainly not about supernatural or occult crap. Most Goths are intellectuals and are much more likely to be complete cynics and atheists than to be fooled by anything like that. Listen: It's about DEATH. It's about the acceptance and celebration of death. If you want to bring up anything at all that is related to Goth, I can poinf out how it references death. Spooky Kids and the like are just that: kids. They probably vaguely relate to it and maybe will grow into Goths--that's why we call them babygoths--but most will give it up. And Goth is certainly alive and thriving. Just listen to Rasputina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcuspierce ( talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears the whole criticism section is just a "don't blame me, he listened to heavy metal" when it really should just say that they were not gothic, and their tastes in music have no influence on their actions. ≈ Maurauth ( nemesis) 08:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
It's really not fair or accurate to lump in scenes with Goth that look the same to people who aren't part of the subcultures. Seems to me a lot of these problem kids aren't even too acclimated to the subcultures anyway- they are posers/mall goths with one or two friends who don't know a lot about or particpate much in the subcultures, listen to more mainstream bands that they mistake for subculture bands, and then go berzerk. Kids from the middle of nowhere who are hundreds or at least tens of miles away from any subculture kids shouldn't get their actions ascribed to the subculture kids. Last I checked, the mainstream media isn't a great source of, for example, what music is goth and what music is death metal, so they're actually a poor source to repeat for the proposition, "This kid who killed a bunch of people was big into goth music." For all they know, he was into one band, and it was a band all the members of which hate goth and wouldn't in a million years considers themselves goth, but the kid is wearing black in a family photo and some kids they talk to say he was into goth, so that's good enough for the news reporters to say he was big into goth. Maybe this is how it happens, or maybe it's not even in the news reports and some people are just taking some news reports about metal, throwing them on Wikipedia and saying "they're saying this has to do with goth"-- but I can't recall hearing of any goth-kid suicides or murders. 67.85.225.175 ( talk) 05:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Swan
While reading this i look at the reference and in the article i read at thougth to myself that it was poorly writen and got its fact wrong.First it was taken from the cbc about the kemmear gill case,which we know form the previous section that he was a fan of nu-metal not goth.Seconded,this story was writen form a person in calgary i bet because it was so conservative and was rearshered poorly.So i am going to take it out.
How does the Goth rock section have the 1st-2nd-3rd wave Goth in it but mention Dark Wave (Industrial Goth)? Also why is there Gothic Metal but no subculture in that division? Should think the 1st-2nd-3rd wave Goth trend or style section is in the wrong place (prolonged in Goth Rock) and certainly believe if Goth metal even exists that something of a followers would be goth. Who'd argue Gothic Metal has not got subculture? Band members in Nightwish wear Trench Coats, Black Eyeliner and have MEAN as GOATEES so last time checking wasn't those items considered gothic or just scene. -- ForsakenPoppet ( talk) 16:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I made an article for Strobelight Records. Given that they're one of the few (perhaps only) sizable record labels specializing in gothic rock/death rock, would it be appropriate to include a mention in the article? I notice that Cleopatra is mentioned.-- Halloween jack 17:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't personally think so, but a lot of goths listen to it, and an anon recently changed it to such. Please don't turn this into a debate about what is and isn't a goth, this is about the music and not the people. Zazaban 03:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this section is rather bad - whilst industrial and electronic music are not related to gothic rock, whether genres of music are related to the goth subculture very much depends on your opinion, and definitions. For example, plenty of "goth" clubs play much, or in some cases mainly, industrial and EBM. What does it mean to say "misattributed"? Who attributes them, and why are they wrong?
I'm sure at one time we had a goth music list article which eventually got deleted because it was hopelessly full of original research and POV, with people trying to claim that X were or weren't "goth". This list looks like it's heading in the same direction.
The article already mentions music and bands, whilst this list tells the reader no useful information, and seems just there to push a point of view - I think it's better to remove it altogether. Mdwh 02:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
So are there answers to my questions, or sources, rather than simply reverting? Note, there is a difference between "gothic rock" (which is a specific genre), and "music associated with goth subculture" which is a much broader and harder to define thing (as I say, plenty of "goth" clubs play more than just "goth rock"). Can sources be provided that (a) people claim that these genres have influenced goth subculture, and (b) they are wrong? Can this be expanded into saying something actually useful, rather than what at the moment seems to be just a POV-pushing list which tells us nothing? Mdwh 17:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Are they're any goth userboxes that don't assume the user is female? I KNOW I saw one a while ago! Zazaban 05:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be an influence to me. The word bondage is even used. Zazaban 00:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but it is properly referenced and totally justified. BDSM is an important influence in the goth subculture, just look around and take notice. Trencacloscas 02:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd move that BDSM reference down into the "Styles of dress within the subculture.." sentence in the second paragraph, since that's where the disparate elements that can be found within gothic fashion are listed. As an aside, what exactly is "cultural proclivities" meant to mean in that opening paragraph? -- Stormie 03:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the reference again because it simply doesn't belong there. Bondage pants were a punk subculture fashion statement and had nothing to do with the goth subculture. Plus basing the inclusion on just bondage pants is ridiculous. Crescentia 15:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry if some people don't care to consider the point here. The point is that the assertion of Fetish culture influencing the Goth subculture is duly referenced and a real source is quoted (I can provide many more). That should be enough to end any discussion for now. Please provide sources and quote them properly or just leave the edit wars for something more productive. Trencacloscas 01:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is you are giving no references at all. I can give plenty of references involving influence of the BDSM culture (in fashion or in ideology) in the Goth subculture (if you want to call it 'fetish', it's ok by me, but 'fetish' is not necessarily a culture or an ideology, just a fashion term, and thus incorrect), but it's useless since you don't offer any elements to support any opposing points of view. The creators of the Goth subculture were involved in BDSM, the attires owe plenty to the BDSM scene, Goths and BDSM people buy clothes in the same shops, Goth parties include oftenly BDSM shows.... That's what I meant with "look around and take notice". Stop edit wars by fundamenting your opinions properly, please. Trencacloscas 22:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I gave the reference of a book totally devoted to the topic of Goth Subculture. Even the pages. Want exact quotations? Cool: "The relation between Goth and BDSM is not recent, but rather something that happened from the beginning" (page 207). "There is not a plain consensus in the gothic community about sexual practices in the same level that there is about disciplines typically artistic: cinema, music, literature, plastic arts in general, and even fashion. But it is undeniable that gothic esthetics are tributaries of the fetish and BDSM scene, and beyond individual preferences of sex and seduction, parties and events, from the beginning and each time more oftenly, include BDSM shows..." (big etcetera follows, page 207). There is a whole chapter about the subject, but I won't transcribe it for you. This should be enough to stop your senseless edit wars without the intervention of an administrator. Trencacloscas 03:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all, are you aware that the first link you provide totally supports the relationship between Goth and BDSM? Your second link does not say anything about the subject(which is the influence of BDSM on Goth subculture). Here it is the exact quote: "Although Gothics tend to appear to be familiar with the practices of bondage by their apparel, most of those people wearing vinyl pants and bondage bracelets don't know the first thing about BDSM and are following a fashion trend. The majority of BDSM practitioners have nothing to do with gothic, and they view bondage gear as a tool, not an accessory". The third one is just a forum-like opinion and it is not even clear; it mentions the crossover between fetish, BDSM and Goth scenes but doesn't say anything about influences. PLEASE GET REAL!!!! I can also provide many internet casual links and references: http://www.nycgoth.com/more/sadomasochism or http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A473924 at a simple query. But I quite prefer books, here's another one: Carol Siegel "Goth's Dark Empire" (pages 8-13 and more too numerous to quote), and also take a look at Corvis Nocturnum "Embracing The Darkness" which points almost the same. By the way, did you ever care to read the expression "to a lesser extent". Since I', tired of attitudes like yours I will rephrase the assertion in a manner that will be incontrovertible. Hope it ends the argument by now. Trencacloscas 21:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not the only person, there's Zazaban over there too, and of course I'm just calling a neutral point of view if there is more nonsense on your side. I just included too more quotes right in English. By the way, if Mick Mercer says something about the subject, why don't you quote him? It is totally imposible that he never touched it. Oh, wait, I read "Hex Files: The Goth Bible" some time ago and guess what?... there was an entire section dedicated to Fetish. A pity I don't have the book with me, do you? Trencacloscas 00:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Certainly, and there are goths that don't dress in black. Mick Mercer is not the only expert or the only one who made researches on the subject, so it doesn't matter in the end. Anyway, I wonder why would he put an entire section about fetish in a Goth book. If he actually wrote that fetish and bdsm never influenced the Goth scene, that would be relevant. But I quite remember it is not the case, and I intend to recover my copy of his book just for the sake of doublechecking. Trencacloscas 13:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no strong opinion one way or another on the above discussion as to whether BDSM has been an influence on the subculture. But I think the following paragraph, on the fashion styles, should mention fetish fashion.
The most obvious examples would be leather collars (with O-rings, etc) and PVC clothing (well, more usually polyurethane in reality). You'd be hard pressed to walk into any goth club without seeing examples of both of those. Roy Badami 12:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The Ideology section goes to relatively great lengths to say that there is no real Goth ideology. So why is there an Ideology section here? I won't remove it, because it's not something I'd bother returning here to keep up with, but the whole article needs serious trimming, and it would be a good start for a "regular" here.
MarkinBoston 03:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the reasons is that a great number of non-goths believe there to be an ideology and quite often their ideas involve satanism and white supremacy. It is needed to explain that that is NOT so. Zazaban 20:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I used to know some people who identified themselves as goth, and their ideas did involve satanism, violence and, if not white supremacy, certainly not tolerance. I know they were not representative of all goths, but I think it's best to leave that section out since it has nothing to do with goths, really. It should be enough to just state in one simple sentence that goths are not associated with any one ideology.-- 80.86.74.135 14:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I think he's given way too much prominence in the criticism section. Either add a few sources and other critics to balance things out, or he should go. Zazaban 21:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
This Portuguese band keeps getting re-added with no explaination. Is it notable enough? Zazaban 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, it's absurd. --marcus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcuspierce ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this article really qualify or should it just be gothic fashion? Zazaban 02:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Anti-fashion is also fashion. I know there is some intend to avoid commercialism and mainstream, but in doing so a new fashion appeared. Alejandro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.127.137.125 ( talk) 17:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed 'underclass' and 'intercultural competence' because neither have anything to do with the goth subculture. The term underclass denotes a socio-economic level that some people live in, not a subculture in which people CHOOSE to join. Intercultural competence, according to the Wiki article, has to do with people of different national cultures getting along,etc... The goth subculture is not a national culture based upon a specific country's long history. Rather, it is a recent subculture based upon music. Crescentia 04:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Zazaban 07:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Gothic metal has nothing to do with the gothic subculture so it shouldn't be included. It is a metal subgenre, not gothic. Even the article says that they are not the same. Crescentia 14:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
below is correct... stop trying to shoehorn "Gothic Metal", which has appropriated the NAME goth, into the subculture. The "goths" who listen to gothic metal are gothic metal fans, not related to the long-term-existing goth subculture. 4.224.228.113 10:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't get it. Gothic Metal is a rock style that combines elements from Metal and Gothic, most Goths today listen to Gothic Metal and any Gothic club these days plays Gothic Metal for the people. It doesn't matter if it is an influence or not, it is a fact. Trencacloscas 21:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The gothic fascination with the macabre has raised public concerns regarding the well-being of goths. The mass media has made reports that have influenced the public view that goths or people associated with the subculture, are malicious ( this however, is incorrect as goth is a pacifist subculture). Some individuals who have either identified themselves or been identified by others as goth, whether correctly or incorrectly, have committed high profile violent crimes, including several school shootings. These incidents and their attribution to the goth scene have helped to propagate a wary perception of Goth in the public eye.[10][11]
I think you are misunderstanding the whole thing. If these people were involved in these crimes, it was not because they were goths, but because they were disturbed or mentally ill people with psychological unbalances, like black criminals, who are not criminals because they are black. When a criminal he belongs to a minority group, that group becomes the target of accusations that should be directed towards the criminal and not the group. Yes, goths do have a fascination for the macabre and darkness in four main ways (or some combination of those four ways):
1. A fascination for darkness and death of spiritual origin. It has nothing to do with grey evil (terrorism, racism, etc), but with the metaphysical evil, which is called the black evil, that is related to deities like Lucifer, Shiva, Odin, etc., who in myths have a sometimes chaotic rôle. But they are archetypal figures. In esoteric traditions, when one emulates their deity, they do not do it in the Christian way, which is to do some things their god did in the very way they say it was done. In esoteric traditions, one symbollicaly does this. So if Kali killed Shiva, it doesn't mean that women have to kill their partners, instead in this case they will have an active (and not passive) rôle in their sexualities, symbolically killing their partners. See http://www.dragonrouge.net/english/philosophy.htm#2.
2. A fascination for darkness and death of ideological origin. Of the "If God is mysogynous, homophobic, ethnocentric, in favour of death penalty, war, animal cruelty, the holocaust, etc, then I'm a satanist", springing from the grey evil so often found in religious organizations, particularly Christian ones.
3. A fascination for darkness and death of emotional origin. People who feel dead because of disgraces that have happened to them, and sometimes, -in a manner of Stockholm Syndrome, fall in love with their sadness, and even sometimes addicted. They feel they need that negative energy, which has replaced positive one.
4. A fascination for darkness and death of egotistical origin. They lean towards the grey evil. In reaction of them has appeared the almost unheard of subculture of the lumen, who are some sort of "white goths". Alejandro
How can one say it is a pacifist subculture? It is apolitical. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.176.14.100 (
talk) 02:49, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
Pacifist doesn't necessarily imply politics. It's simply is a fancy word for non-violent.
Zazaban
02:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've reinstated this claim in (hopefully) more NPOV language, with a reference. Rightly or wrongly (I would say rightly, but then I'm a goth so you might regard me biased :) the goth scene is regularly described as peaceful, non-violent, etc, and that tallies with my experience. I just added the most authoratative reference I could quickly find, but it wouldn't hurt to have maybe one more. Roy Badami 21:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and to comment on the emotional thing (sorry, made the edit before noticing there was a talk secion on it - my bad): By all means write a section on the emotional 'drama' that seems to be a frequent occurence in some parts of the scene. But in the context of a section talking about accusations of mass murder, I think it's reasonable to comment that physical assualt is rare in the Goth subculture, and I think it's clear from context that that's what 'non-violent' means here Roy Badami 21:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
One of the pillars of gothic subculture is a heavy emphasis on individualism. Gothicism is not political or apolitical, it is just not concerned with that issue in an ideological level (if there even is such a thing). That is not a contradiction, because being apolitical is also a political stance, just as atheism is a religious belief. Politics and religion are not a part of the subculture, just as engineering and football are also not part of this. Gothicism, more than an ideology, is an aesthetic tendence involved with classicism (hellenistic antiquity, dark ages, middle ages, reinassance, baroque, romanticism, modernism, victorian, elizabethan and edwardian eras, and finally, post-punk), which in turn extends to all arts. So it can be said that to be a goth, one must fulfill some characteristics that have nothing to do with ideology. This means that a goth can be conservative, communist, anarchist, -and sadly- even a nazi (which is in fact more related to black metal). Does this mean that gothic subculture endorses any form of fascism or racism? Of course not! See the story about Siouxsie and the swastika. Fascism and racism are just things that have nothing to do with it. You can't blame a glass of water for being nazi just because it shows no signs of being against it. Get it? That a goth is not likely to dress like a member of the Masai tribe or believe in the same deities the Melanesians do, does not make her/him racist (And believing otherwise is a serious issue). What a goth believes about how a state should be organised is completely apart from his/her involvement with the subculture. That he wants to "gothicise" his believe in order to embellish it, is also something unrelated. And after having said all that, I must say, however, that there was some liberal-nationalist political tendency amongst 18th and 19th century romanticists that in their age would have been considered leftist and revolutionary, which nowadays, -kidnapped by the punk subculture- have been mixed with imagery and attitudes very undesirable for many goths. Even nowadays we have Liv Kristine (although not directly related to romantics) campaigning for animal rights and (if I remember well) against VIH/AIDS. Again, that is no prescribed gothic behaviour, but there are some political and ethical beliefs a goth is more likely to have. Alejandro
Alright, this section is getting really ugly. I think that our definition of what can be called Goth is highly conservative, and is trying to exactly conform to what it was in 1982. Can't we update a bit? Even other language Wikipedias are way more liberal than us. Zazaban 22:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
An article introduction is a synopsis of the article contents, nothing more. And that is the point. -- Breathtaker 01:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start handing out 24-hour blocks for Wikipedia:Three-revert rule violations if people don't stop edit warring over inserting and removing that section. -- Stormie 02:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Currently, after our introductory section, we have "Origins and development," then our disputed "Associated music" section and "The goth scene" (primarily about music). Then we head off into "Historical and cultural influences", then back to "Ideology" and "Fashion".
I would propose that Music, Fashion and Ideology should be together, since they're what the subculture is "about", and that origins, development, history, cultural influence and the like should all be together, since they're "about the subculture". Perhaps like this:
(followed by references/see also/links)
What does anyone else think? -- Stormie 12:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I would propose somehow emphasizing Bauhaus. I'm an old-school goth. I just think that their influence was a lot more substantial than the others, considering (and I'm not even going to argue this) that the whole Goth movement is based on musical influence. You know it is--speaking directly to any old Goths out there. We have many influences, Baudelaire to Sarte, but it was always about music, and Bauhaus was that music. I'll bow out gracefully if you disagree, but be sure you know what you're talking about. I'm from the San Fancisco late 80s Goth scene. Berlin? Toronto?
Have both the original muisic (As we've always had,) Newer music, and music often mistaken for Goth, Including both Genres like Metal and Emo, and a few bands like Marilyn Manson and maybe The Misfits. Mention that some newer genres status as Goth is disputed by some. Also, perhaps a history section for the evolution of 'Goth' music. Zazaban 15:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a fallacy. Gothic clubs aren't really existent. The most events are Independent music events. Different genres are played and different subcultures are a part of the club scene. Beside the Goth subculture there is a Rivethead culture and a Cyber culture. In the 1980s and early 1990s different subcultures, such as Punks (Pistols, Ramones), EBM-heads (Nitzer 242), Crossover-heads (Ministry, NIN), and New Wavers (Depeche Mode, Anne Clark), were a part of the club culture. Pure gothic events are rare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.50.138 ( talk) 12:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
If the term "goth" has another meaning today and the Goth subculture article includes this new pseudo-goth meaning, i'll create a new big fat Dark Wave article including a section for the old Goth subculture. That's a promise! This new "pseudo-goth subculture" has nothing to do with the original Goth and Dark Wave movement! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.50.138 ( talk) 17:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the accusations of eurocentricity, have a look at the Japanese-inspired goth fashions, inspired in turn by Japanese horror.... which is in turn itself inspired by the West... dammit. Corpman 12:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we possibly refine the paragraph that says that violence done to goths is uncommon? Personally, all of the goths I know (myself included) have to avoid violence more in one month than most people do in a year.. - 99.250.73.234 ( talk) 04:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
A goth is defined by music, clothes and ideology (or different ideologies). A Goth, which don't listen to Goth music and related genres, is no Goth. And this is a fact. Goth is mainly defined by the music. And the Goth subculture is a part of the post punk and dark wave movement. All the other is irrelevant.
Btw: a main problem seems to be that the english-language wikipedia doesn't distinguishs between the Gothic scene (Gothic rock scene) and the Dark Culture (there are also different dark subcultures besides the Goth culture, such as Rivetheads and others). In Germany, we call it Schwarze Szene, in Portugal and Spain it's called Cultura Dark or Cultura Obscura - and the Goth subculture is only a part of this big dark culture. Especially in Europe, there is also a Goth metal scene and a Neofolk/Industrial scene. They all are members of the Dark Culture, but they're no Goths, because Goth is a Post punk movement, not an Industrial or Metal movement. They are different cultures, but they use all the same music clubs (partly with Punks and Psychobillies). -- 87.122.13.226 07:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Dark electros are no Goths.
But yes, a Goth is defined by music, fashion and maybe an ideology. All three characteristics define the Goth movement. Without this there is no Goth subculture. Only the fashion is not a Goth characteristic, because the members of the Visual Kei movement use the same clothes. The same with the attitude or the interests. There are also Black metal and Doom metal scenes. There is a number of different subcultures with the same interests in dark themes. Important is the mixture between all these elements: music (Gothic rock) fashion (dark punky, victorian etc.) and an ideology/attitude (melancholic, spooky, whatever...). Without this, there is no Goth subculture.
And if a dark electro can be a goth, why not also a technohead? or a marilyn manson kiddie? a metalhead or hippie? In your opinion Goths can listen to every kind of music. OK. But important is only the music which a Goth lives so passionately for. And this is and was Gothic rock. In your opinion every kid in black clothes can be a Goth. And this is crap. The Goth movement was mainly a music culture, defined by Gothic rock. You cannot misuse terms which stood for a complete other movement. The Goth scene was a Goth rock scene.
just look at the difference between the early Batcave bands and the "drum machine goth rock" of the Sisters of Mercy. Bullshit. The guitars were the same. Moody slide, dark bass guitars and a post-punk and psychedelic sound. This is Goth rock, nothing more. Alien Sex Fiend was also a Batcave group and they used electronic elements and rhythms. All these bands had definitely a Punk feeling! Because Goth was a post punk movement, not a dark electro, metal, futurepop or techno movement. Goth was born in the cradle of the post punk/new wave era. It was a movement simliar to the New Romantic scene. And if the Goth rock or Darkwave music is dead, the Goth subculture will die. Take a look to Germany. There is the real future. And the future is mixture between metalheads, cyber people, emos and visual keis. In Germany, the Goth subculture dies out. It's only a remnant, which survived in a handful of clubs. -- 87.122.37.126 17:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Suggested compromise:
What if we make a separate article called "gothrock subculture" about the subculture which was based on goth rock. I dont know if you want to call it "goth", or you want to call it "dark romantic post-punk and gothic literature Rob Smith idolatry subculture" by whatever name you call it there is a subculture, or was a subculture based on gothrock, and there is no reliable source which says the subculture based on Marilyn Manson, or the subculture based on "Dark Techno/EBM/RAVE" is the same subculture (in fact, by definition it can't be unless the same human beings become raver mansonites). There are merely numerous unreliable sources ASSUMING rave and heavy metal to be gothrock based on the unsupported assumption that people who occasionally share the same brand of boots are part of the same subculture. If they merely happen to share a label and nothing more then that, it calls for a disambiguation page rather than assuming they are the same group of human beings. The only reason this argument ever happens is because certain people have a FETISH for the word "Goth". It can be documented that fans of gothrock commonly call themself "goth" and call gothrock music "goth", but that the word "goth" has been used to refer to other things in mainstream society. Certain editors are just trying to write an article about the gothrock subculture as it is, and leave aside all the other subcultures and things which have nothing to do with it. gothrock subculture should be documented somewhere (Even if it is now dead.. it once had a notable influence on contemporary society), it should not perpetually confabulated with unrelated things that someone out there calls "goth". This article and gothrock used to be the same article, and this article was specifically about the scene and the subculture which revolved around the gothrock music genre, its fans, performers, and their distinctive subcultural behaviors. But once gothrock was removed from this article it became an article WITH NO DEFINED SCOPE. Rather than being about the gothrock subculture, it became about gothrock mixed together with ALL subcultures anywhere on earth that anyone whatsoever has EVER labeled "goth". The article is not neutral in that it advances the unsupported idea that these separate subcultures are a single subculture. TheDarknessVisible ( talk) 06:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
What in your opinion is the Goth subculture? I wish, Mick Mercer would come and create a new article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.47.120 ( talk) 00:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
So getting back to the point that was being edit-warred over: "Goths prefer to a number of different music genres" isn't quite so bad; I'm not sure it's POV (I mean, surely this is true?) but it's also rather vague (sure, it might be true that some goths also listen to classical music for example, but it's not clear that's a relevant or important point for the lead).
"Gothic music encompasses a number of different styles." has the problem of also being rather vague imo - what do we mean by "Gothic music"? It might be more specific to say something like "The subculture encompasses..." (this is what the article is about, after all)? Later on, we elaborate with "styles of music that were heard in venues that goths attended", so perhaps we could use something like that?
Also see discussion under Talk:Goth subculture#A proposal for the revised music section. - the key point here is music associated with the goth subculture, which should probably be defined as something like styles of music played in clubs and gigs organized by and targetted towards people within the subculture (as Stormie puts it). Mdwh ( talk) 15:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I feel like I have to comment that Goth is not about music. It is an aesthetic and a philosophy. It can be applied to anything: art forms to religion to fashion. I could write this sentence in Goth style, if I so chose. BTW, are any of you actually Goth? Marcuspierce ( talk) 23:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The Sophie Lancaster article has been listed as not meeting notability guidelines. As the deletion of that article would have an effect on parts of this article more input on this question would be welcome at Talk:Sophie_Lancaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Machenphile ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey, apparently there's an edit war or something, because the article is locked to changes. Early in the article, a few styles of dress are listed, and the sentence is phrased, "from a,b,c..." but there's never a "to D." Clearly the "styles ranging from" phrasing should be changed if there's never anything that the styles range to, in the sentence... you know? It would be cool if someone remembered to fix that when the page is unlocked again. 24.223.151.194 ( talk) 10:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if the Gothic Lolita fashion that exists in (mostly) Japan should be mentioned in this article, since I'm no Goth expert, and Goth culture is mostly western. Just thought I would mention it. Lijakaca ( talk) 18:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
No, it isn't. The shared elements are just coincidence, and one just tend to get mislead by the "Gothic" tag. No relation at all. Trencacloscas ( talk) 21:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
All the "gothic lolita's" I ever met, are into goth rock. so.... while the origin of gothic lolita is outside of goth (albeit influenced by goth)... I'm not so convinced that there isn't an influence back onto goth subculture again. Then again.. anecdotal information is meaningless... since .. there is probably a bias on my part as far as the types of people I meet. goths can dress like anything at all... TheDarknessVisible ( talk) 23:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm not a goth, but it seems to me that whoever wrote the "20th century influences" section wandered kind of off-topic for a spell. Maybe consider editing that section or deleting the two consecutive paragraphs that fail mention goth once, but proceed to ramble about random movies? Kajmal ( talk) 13:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
why the missconception that goth subculture started in the eighties? goth rock did, but some early examples of gothic music include faust, le symphonie fantastique, and le danse macabre, the goth subculture is at least several hundred years old, and the majority of gothic imagry and art is from the fourtienth centuary. and im pretty sure necromancers and "goths" are as old as civilisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.66 ( talk) 19:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just reading the start of this article (I guess this topics is linked to it so I don't have to link the article) and I got really dissapointed when I read this: "Also a common trait within goth subculture is crying themselves to sleep every night. This can be problematic as their makeup can get rather smeary at this time, leading to an even higher suicide rate amongst these poor, misguided individuals"
What the hell is that? It looks like some 14 year old boy wrote that because he dislike goths. It is in no way true and may be more associated with the sub-genre "emo". I don't cry myself to sleep, I don't wear makeup, but that bit of text still insulted me.
So please either remove it or explain why that crap is in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.160.106.173 ( talk) 11:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thats not racism in any way. Is any part of it true? Rds865 ( talk) 21:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
When I read the second paragraph, I saw: "Common to all is a tendency towards a lugubrious, mystical sound and outlook. Also a common trait within goth subculture is crying themselves to sleep every night. This can be problematic as their makeup can get rather smeary at this time, leading to an even higher suicide rate amongst these poor, misguided individuals. Styles of dress within the subculture range from death rock, punk, androgynous, medieval, some Renaissance and Victorian style clothes, or combinations of the above, most often with black attire, makeup and hair." However, when I tried to edit it, I saw: "Common to all is a tendency towards a lugubrious, mystical sound and outlook. Styles of dress within the subculture range from death rock, punk, androgynous, medieval, some Renaissance and Victorian style clothes, or combinations of the above, most often with black attire, makeup and hair." Is this vandalism? It seems to be a fairly biased comment with no actual new information. 131.111.8.102 ( talk) 20:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
When has he been considered an originator of gothic rock? New wave? Yes. Synthpop? Yes. Electronic? Yes. Goth? No. Just because the guy influenced some darkwave/synthpop bands doesn't mean the guy has ever been goth. There is a difference bewteen New Wave and early deathrock/gothic rock. I could go on but you get the point. Crescentia ( talk) 01:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I am inviting editors from this article, the gothic rock article and the gothic metal article to engage is discussion on this. It was brought up a year ago whether gothic metal was part of the goth subculture or not and there was no consensus. There was a minor dispute on Template:Goth subculture whether to add it Gothic metal to the template and I need a consensus here so that the correct action can be performed. As I started this discussion, I am going to remain neutral on the decision made here, and I will not be actively participating on one side in particular (in general I will make a few comments, but I am not going to !vote). Please be aware though that the most credible arguments are given when reliable sources are given to back up their view. Your point of view isn't discouraged here, but please keep your personal beliefs and stance focused and again, provide credible sources if they are available to you. Thanks, — Κaiba 02:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Oookay. Ignoring the flame war, I'd venture to say that if an authoritative book on goth subculture like this one: Baddeley, Gavin (2002), Gothic Chic: A Connoisseur's Guide to Dark Culture, London: Plexus Publishing Limited,
ISBN
0859653080 can devote several pages to gothic metal, then yes, we can have the goth subculture tag added onto the gothic metal article here on wikipedia. That's a reliable source. Much better than mere prejudice from one subculture to another. Nobody's saying that gothic metal and the goth subculture are the same thing or completely identical. There's no reason to jump to the conclusion that only goths listen to gothic metal just because the goth subculture template is tagged onto the article. I believe the point that most people will get from that is to realize that gothic metal has attracted a significant number from the goth subculture as an audience. Something that has been recognized, for instance, in
this interview with Tilo Wolff of Lacrimosa. You do not need to be in a band to know this though. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Attend a gothic metal concert today and you'll see many people that clearly belong to the gothic subculture if only because of their distinctive gothic fashion. Last time I checked, metal fashion did not involve going all victorian with corsets and laces. As far as proof that the early gothic metal bands were influenced by goth rock acts, I'd simply point out the references cited in the gothic metal article.--
Bardin (
talk)
14:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Beginning with the slow transition of Paradise Lost and Anathema's musical style to a more gothic flavoured brand of metal, eventually transcending into a modernized form of Gothic rock in its own right, the emergence of Tiamat and the release of "Wildhoney", the collaboration between Atrocity and Das Ich, resulting in "Die Liebe", the groundbreaking success (in relative terms for that subculture) of Theatre Of Tragedy, and finally the existence of numerous bands utilizing lyrical concepts and stylistic elements (both visual and musical) borrowed from Gothic (think Crematory)...I think I have provided a sufficient number of examples to say that Gothic music certainly influenced part of the metal scene, which led to a fusion of two formerly separate genres. Gothic metal as a genre in its own right is definitely both part of Gothic and metal subculture, albeit located on the periphery of both (not being an original part of the core concept). Crossover is not only a musical term, but can be applied to the relevant subcultures as well, influencing ideology, social norms of said subcultures, fashion etc. Don't tell me that hasn't taken place. Social scientists have dealt with those issues, there have been a number of scientific papers on crossover of youth subcultures. The fact that 25 years ago it had been different and metalheads were beating up Goths doesn't change any factual situation we have today. Neither does your status as a Goth DJ for the last 15 years or anything make you an authority on that subject. Oh right, the things you have seen on festivals do not count - that is original research. Please refer to WP:NOR. Though, having said that, I wonder which festivals you frequent. I have seen immense amounts of Goths - yes, real Goths, not "wannabees" by Goth orthodoxy definitions - both at Wacken Open Air and Summer Breeze Open Air when acts remotely connected to the Gothic scene performed. Just like I have seen scores of metalheads on the Wave-Gotik-Treffen or the M'era Luna. In fact, the only festival where I haven't seen any "real" Goths is the Party.San, because the billing obviously hardly caters to that clientele...And hardly any of the Goths I met reduced the subculture to Batcave and acts like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim or Christian Death in musical aspects. Vargher ( talk) 16:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if gothic metal could be considered as a part of the music associated with the goth subculture.But a mentioning through the page won't be a bad idea because:
Xr 1 ( talk) 21:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Italic textPlease don't get it wrong: I am not trying to discredit you, merely saying that I think one should rely on more academic sources, i.e. people who studied the Goth scene from a scientific point of viewItalic text
Yet you are doing just that. I have to ask you do live the culture of a Goth? Have you hug out with and talked with Goths as of late? No you have not people like you and Bardin have not right to clam or say you know what the Goth subculture is like until you live it. I don't give a damn I don't care what damn books and scientific point of view you have. You are insuliting those that live the culture and trying to tell them what there culture is really like. NEWSFLASH YOU don't know jack about may culture and the way I live. I'm both a metalhead and a Goth. And people like you are Bardin are hatefullied people going around trying to tell me what my culture is like. Why don't you try living it before you start telling others what is and what is not part of the culture. -- 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 21:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Here http://www.youtube.com/user/tribalthunder93 now learn a thing or two about the subculture people like you and Bardin clam to know so much about yet really don't. I'm shocked that this site would even let people like you two edit and do other shamful acts like this. You don't know me you don't know my subculture. Stop editing it to fit that of the mainstream media. They do not live nor understand a thing about the Goth subculture. -- 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Attend a gothic metal concert today and you'll see many people that clearly belong to the gothic subculture if only because of their distinctive gothic fashion.>>>
You don't have a clue about what my fashion nor any one else fashion is in are culture. So don't even play that card Bardin. Metalheads dress in black to. People who listen to Rap music dress in black. People who listen to Black Metal dress in black. Shopping at Hot Topic does nto make you Goth. And listening to Gothic Metal dose not make you part of the Goth subculture. It's something you live. And far more Goths don't listen or go to Metal shows. If they do they are called Metalheads. I'm in both worlds I live both worlds. So how dare you come up with these clams. You don't live my culture you never have and you never will.-- 98.224.211.86
Do you know anything about the Goth subculture? No you don't so stop editing pages and telling other people what to do. Stop editing pages about other peoples Cultures that you don't know a thing about. You are rude and mean. And right know you have crossed the line and instulited me and others who are a part of the Goth subculture with you rude remarks. We know are own culture. You don't stop editing it to fit your narrow minded view of what the media tells you it is. They don't have a clue as to what Goths are like. They don't live it and neither do you. Grow up and stop telling others what there subculture has and does not have. Stop telling them what there fashion is and is not. You don't know them. All you know is what you read in the mainstream. If that's all you are going to do is offened people of a culture you don't know a thing about then stop editing there pages. Leave it to the people who are part of the culture. You are not part of the culture there for you have no say in what will go into the article. Leave that to the people who live the culture. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.224.211.86 (
talk)
02:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we all sure that's the best representation we have? Zazaban ( talk) 20:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion? Goth-p1020641.jpg from commons just typed in 'goth' to commons. Ashspirit ( talk) 23:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Fille-goth.jpg
you may notice that the current picture comes firstin the 'goth fashion' search on commons. Ashspirit ( talk) 00:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
good good, someone included them in both goth subculture and fashion articles, but the formatting's a little off... 5 mins of someone's time? i would, but i am useless at such things. Ashspirit ( talk) 01:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The Goths that sacked Rome were Arian Christian, not pagan. They were seen as barbarians and Arianism is a heresy, and their attacks did contribute to the beginning of the Dark Ages. Rds865 ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Just so you know, the debate on whether this is goth or not has been brought up again. I've created this section for its discussion. This would be at least the third time this has been debated. Zazaban ( talk) 19:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Gavin Baddeley is an ordained Reverend in the Church of Satan. That has nothing to do with Goths, or Goth Music. I might as well ask a Jewish person about those who take part in Wiccan religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A book (in French) Carnets Noirs (reprint 2006) dealing with gothic music and other cold music clearly identifies gothic metal as a gothic music (pp.211-225) while specifying however that metal and gothic have long been considered as incompatible genres before. (noting that none could believe that bands like Judas Priest could be associated with acts like Bauhaus.) Yes I don’t doubt some will reject this because it is French or something. But still Wikipedia rules don’t prevent to use sources in other languages.
Anyway I’m not as radical as Bardin concerning this issue, but I support his claims. I know why people deny gothic metal to be gothic music. I understand their logic. If by “gothic” we only refer to music descending directly from post-punk, then yes gothic metal doesn’t belong to that kind of music. However notion of gothic has evolved in popular use and it can be used in a broader sense. Get over it, “Gothic” is not a trademark; the use of the term has evolved to a broader sense.
Moreover I believe many people who deny gothic metal bands are often misinformed about gothic metal. Yes Gothic metal roots belongs to metal. No question about it, but it also takes clear influences from gothic rock and post punk, (and even darkwave btw). That’s a fact. None can deny that.
Gothic metal pioneer Theatre of tragedy was influenced by gothic rock and post-punk including bands like Joy Division and Sisters of mercy. Moonspell has always claimed that their first main influence was Fields of the Nephilim. Type o Negative has been influenced by the Sisters Of Mercy (among other different influences). Paradise Lost was influenced by Sisters of the Mercy too most notably.(as well as New wave acts and originaly darkwave bands like Dead Can Dance) Lacrimosa was a band of darkwave before evolving to some kind of gothic metal.(Yeah I know some purists may deny Darkwave to be gothic, however this music has often been associated with gothic culture) Extreme gothic metal band Cradle of Filth were influenced by bands like Sisters of Mercy and Christian death. They even collaborated with Christian Death on Born Again Anti-Christian album. Extreme gothic metal band Opera IX covered Famous Bauhaus song Bela Lugosi's Dead
Moreover note that first attempts to mix gothic music with metal were not made by metal bands but by gothic rock bands Sister of mercy (vision thing) and death rock acts Christian Death. If you need sources. I can provide some without any problems.
Anyway that’s just my two cents, I’m not ready to engage into a sterile debate. I really couldn’t care less if you include gothic metal or not. Frédérick Duhautpas ( talk) 22:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If you would visit site the deal with The Goth Subculture you would note that A) Metal music is not to be found any where. A) They have more inside info as to what there subculture is about. It's like when a Christian tries and tells people what Wicca is about when they themselves are not Wicca. And picking up a book by someone who is not part of the subculture yet clams to know ever thing about it is full hearted at best.
I'm part Irish so if I want to get info on the Irish people and there culture I can either pick up a book written by a guy who's not even Irish or I can go ask someone who is Irish. Hmmmmmmm what to do what to do. Don't mind me but I'm going to go ask the person who is Irish and from Ireland. I know that is a really low blow for Bardin. But just because you are paid or not paid to write a book about someone else culture does not mean you have the final say in it. In fact you don't have a say in it at all because your not even part of the culture to being with. If you want to know about the Goth Subculture ask a Goth. If you want to know about the Irish ask someone who is Irish. If you want to know about the culture of Japan ask someone from Japan. They are the last and final say on anything that has to do with there Culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 23:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Then you are doing nothing more the race baiting and using blanket statements on whole groups of people. And that is hateful and wrong on so many levels. If that's the way you want and the rest of the people that run this site want to do things. Then look for for many groups to start protesting your Hateful race baiting, blanket uncalled for statements on other peoples cultures. The Irish people are the authorataive of there culture. Same thing with the people of Japan, Goths, people from Finlind, and so on. If you don't get that then you need to take a long look in the mirror. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 01:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
@Crescentia:
Vision Thing doesn't sound metal at all IMHO, Joy Division were post punk not gothic rock, and Dead Can Dance were not darkwave.. A lot of bands have been influenced by Sisters Of Mercy, Christian Death and the older gothic rock bands but should every genre that those bands are in be included?
I just read a translation by the authors of the book you keep referencing. It was a mission statement, and in it they admit to being biased with their opinions.
Just because an album has heavy guitars doesn't make it metal
Just because a band says they are INFLUENCED by another form of music doesn't mean that that bands are that form of music, or are connected to that form of music.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This problem is being looked at from the wrong end of the binoculars. The modern expressions of the 'Gothic' as a cultural phenomenon dates from the end of the 18th century. By the 1830s in Britain, France and Germany, and even America, almost everything we associate with that term had already come to existence. French bohemians were eating and drinking out of skulls, dressing in exotic pseudo-Renaissance style, hanging their rooms in black velvet and tinting their windowpanes purple, and decorating their walls with human and animal skulls and antique weapons. This current of dark, sinister Romanticism was known as 'Gothic' fairly early, and never really went away. Even when not fashionable it persisted as an undercurrent, beloved of certain sensibilities. It is a cultural tradition that has had many twists and turns and varieties of expression, while still remaining recognizably 'Gothic' over the nearly 250 years of its existence. So when 'people of a certain age' (over 45) insist that the term 'Goth' apply only to a certain form of post-punk music from the 80s, they are running counter to cultural history. Even in rock music, the emergence of a gothic sensibility predated the formal recognition of 'Goth music' by several years with Black Sabbath and Pentagram. A very solid argument that these bands, and the Doom Metal they inspired in the 80s and 90s, are much more representative of The Gothic Aesthetic than any post-punk band. This is where the 'Trad Goths' fall into a terrible error. The 80s New Wavy drum-machine music they champion is is representative of only a very small and narrow expression of the entire Goth Aesthetic, and they are, without justification, trying to make their preferred music and the scene of their youth paramount, which is absurd, and a mere act of poignant mostalgia for aging Goths ( please understand i am not denigrating this music; many fine albums came out of it).
I believe this can be solved by a change in nomenclature, with 'The Gothic' representing the general aesthetic of this dark romanticism, and its various trends in various arts ought to bexplaced under sub-headings. Thus those who were influenced by 80s Goth are best called either Batcavers or, if American, Death Rockers. Those who melded the influences of Black Sabbath and the Batcavers/Death Rockers can best be described as Gith Metallers or Doom Metallers interchangeably. Those who lean towards Dark Wave and Dark Ambient are Darkwavers, etc. Etc. ALL are 'Gothic' because all draw from that same cultural, artistic tradition in their own way. But the thing to remember is that this tradition, this aesthetic is greater by far than any pop-cultural embodiment-of-the-moment of it. Another source of confusion arises from regarding it as a 'subculture'--which has very specific sociological implications--rather than an artistic aesthetic that one makes one's own. It is far more if an artistic and cultural phenomenon than a sociological one.
Today, we have many people which aren't listening to Gothic music. Consequently they're not goths. The same with fashion. Many people in the dark clubs aren't really dressed in Goth clothes. They look like cyber people, metalheads or "normalos". In my opinion, we're living in a post-goth period.
There is no Gothic band in the charts... without the popularity of Gothic music and without the figureheads of Gothic rock, the Goth culture is dying. -- Diluvien 20:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
My question is not a joke. Today, many people who use the term "goth" aren't not really goth. They're not listening to goth music and they don't look like goths. The goth subculture is inseparably connected to Gothic music and fashion. -- Diluvien 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of all this, subcultures change and mutate, such is the nature of our society, it has happened to a lot of genres, look at stuff like punk and metal. The original punks were nothing like the 80's punks and then again the 90's punks were nothing like the 80's or 70's punks. We evolve rapidly in terms of fashion, goth is the same. In effect it has become a popular term that many people who wouldn't actually be considered goth are labeling themselves as that, rather than calling themselves something else. It has become a broad term now, and is now more readily associated with metal culture. Should be included in the article? maybe, but it is what Goth is now today, this is an encyclopedia so maybe it should be briefly mentioned in a time line, going through developments and changes in the subculture. However this artcile should be based around modern day term goth, with a mention of its previous roots.
-Some dude with crap opinion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.200.223 ( talk) 15:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Industry kids and Spooky kids. A handful of metal kids, influenced by the music industry, which markets Metal music acts such as Nightwish, Cradle of Filth and other crap as "Gothic music". They're irrelevant for the article. -- Breathtaker 23:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure not an expert on Goth, but it seems to me the original Goth subculture roots didn't have to do with the supernatural or the occult. I don't know whether the original Goths tended to be interested in those things, but it seems to me like those things kind of got added on later to what's usually associated with Goth. Seems to me more like originally Goth could be loosely defined as this clique of people who liked a certain variation on punk fashion that was a little toned down from the punk and focused more on wearing black, hung out together, had a certain insiderish, cynical, counter-culture attitude, and listened to a few specific bands that were a little less thuggy, a little more toned-down than the punk bands in general, but who had a common kind of more melodic/mellow sound, that was a little evocative of the mysterious ambience. Seems to me connections of original Goth to the supernatural or occult are made out of ignorance or bad faith. But then, I'm not expert or afficionado. 67.85.225.175 ( talk) 05:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Swan
Goth is not about horror (as in popular culture, film, etc.), it's not about music, it's not about black clothes or whiteface. Well, it is, but obliquely. It's certainly not about supernatural or occult crap. Most Goths are intellectuals and are much more likely to be complete cynics and atheists than to be fooled by anything like that. Listen: It's about DEATH. It's about the acceptance and celebration of death. If you want to bring up anything at all that is related to Goth, I can poinf out how it references death. Spooky Kids and the like are just that: kids. They probably vaguely relate to it and maybe will grow into Goths--that's why we call them babygoths--but most will give it up. And Goth is certainly alive and thriving. Just listen to Rasputina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcuspierce ( talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears the whole criticism section is just a "don't blame me, he listened to heavy metal" when it really should just say that they were not gothic, and their tastes in music have no influence on their actions. ≈ Maurauth ( nemesis) 08:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
It's really not fair or accurate to lump in scenes with Goth that look the same to people who aren't part of the subcultures. Seems to me a lot of these problem kids aren't even too acclimated to the subcultures anyway- they are posers/mall goths with one or two friends who don't know a lot about or particpate much in the subcultures, listen to more mainstream bands that they mistake for subculture bands, and then go berzerk. Kids from the middle of nowhere who are hundreds or at least tens of miles away from any subculture kids shouldn't get their actions ascribed to the subculture kids. Last I checked, the mainstream media isn't a great source of, for example, what music is goth and what music is death metal, so they're actually a poor source to repeat for the proposition, "This kid who killed a bunch of people was big into goth music." For all they know, he was into one band, and it was a band all the members of which hate goth and wouldn't in a million years considers themselves goth, but the kid is wearing black in a family photo and some kids they talk to say he was into goth, so that's good enough for the news reporters to say he was big into goth. Maybe this is how it happens, or maybe it's not even in the news reports and some people are just taking some news reports about metal, throwing them on Wikipedia and saying "they're saying this has to do with goth"-- but I can't recall hearing of any goth-kid suicides or murders. 67.85.225.175 ( talk) 05:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Swan
While reading this i look at the reference and in the article i read at thougth to myself that it was poorly writen and got its fact wrong.First it was taken from the cbc about the kemmear gill case,which we know form the previous section that he was a fan of nu-metal not goth.Seconded,this story was writen form a person in calgary i bet because it was so conservative and was rearshered poorly.So i am going to take it out.
How does the Goth rock section have the 1st-2nd-3rd wave Goth in it but mention Dark Wave (Industrial Goth)? Also why is there Gothic Metal but no subculture in that division? Should think the 1st-2nd-3rd wave Goth trend or style section is in the wrong place (prolonged in Goth Rock) and certainly believe if Goth metal even exists that something of a followers would be goth. Who'd argue Gothic Metal has not got subculture? Band members in Nightwish wear Trench Coats, Black Eyeliner and have MEAN as GOATEES so last time checking wasn't those items considered gothic or just scene. -- ForsakenPoppet ( talk) 16:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I made an article for Strobelight Records. Given that they're one of the few (perhaps only) sizable record labels specializing in gothic rock/death rock, would it be appropriate to include a mention in the article? I notice that Cleopatra is mentioned.-- Halloween jack 17:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't personally think so, but a lot of goths listen to it, and an anon recently changed it to such. Please don't turn this into a debate about what is and isn't a goth, this is about the music and not the people. Zazaban 03:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this section is rather bad - whilst industrial and electronic music are not related to gothic rock, whether genres of music are related to the goth subculture very much depends on your opinion, and definitions. For example, plenty of "goth" clubs play much, or in some cases mainly, industrial and EBM. What does it mean to say "misattributed"? Who attributes them, and why are they wrong?
I'm sure at one time we had a goth music list article which eventually got deleted because it was hopelessly full of original research and POV, with people trying to claim that X were or weren't "goth". This list looks like it's heading in the same direction.
The article already mentions music and bands, whilst this list tells the reader no useful information, and seems just there to push a point of view - I think it's better to remove it altogether. Mdwh 02:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
So are there answers to my questions, or sources, rather than simply reverting? Note, there is a difference between "gothic rock" (which is a specific genre), and "music associated with goth subculture" which is a much broader and harder to define thing (as I say, plenty of "goth" clubs play more than just "goth rock"). Can sources be provided that (a) people claim that these genres have influenced goth subculture, and (b) they are wrong? Can this be expanded into saying something actually useful, rather than what at the moment seems to be just a POV-pushing list which tells us nothing? Mdwh 17:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Are they're any goth userboxes that don't assume the user is female? I KNOW I saw one a while ago! Zazaban 05:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be an influence to me. The word bondage is even used. Zazaban 00:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but it is properly referenced and totally justified. BDSM is an important influence in the goth subculture, just look around and take notice. Trencacloscas 02:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd move that BDSM reference down into the "Styles of dress within the subculture.." sentence in the second paragraph, since that's where the disparate elements that can be found within gothic fashion are listed. As an aside, what exactly is "cultural proclivities" meant to mean in that opening paragraph? -- Stormie 03:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the reference again because it simply doesn't belong there. Bondage pants were a punk subculture fashion statement and had nothing to do with the goth subculture. Plus basing the inclusion on just bondage pants is ridiculous. Crescentia 15:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry if some people don't care to consider the point here. The point is that the assertion of Fetish culture influencing the Goth subculture is duly referenced and a real source is quoted (I can provide many more). That should be enough to end any discussion for now. Please provide sources and quote them properly or just leave the edit wars for something more productive. Trencacloscas 01:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is you are giving no references at all. I can give plenty of references involving influence of the BDSM culture (in fashion or in ideology) in the Goth subculture (if you want to call it 'fetish', it's ok by me, but 'fetish' is not necessarily a culture or an ideology, just a fashion term, and thus incorrect), but it's useless since you don't offer any elements to support any opposing points of view. The creators of the Goth subculture were involved in BDSM, the attires owe plenty to the BDSM scene, Goths and BDSM people buy clothes in the same shops, Goth parties include oftenly BDSM shows.... That's what I meant with "look around and take notice". Stop edit wars by fundamenting your opinions properly, please. Trencacloscas 22:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I gave the reference of a book totally devoted to the topic of Goth Subculture. Even the pages. Want exact quotations? Cool: "The relation between Goth and BDSM is not recent, but rather something that happened from the beginning" (page 207). "There is not a plain consensus in the gothic community about sexual practices in the same level that there is about disciplines typically artistic: cinema, music, literature, plastic arts in general, and even fashion. But it is undeniable that gothic esthetics are tributaries of the fetish and BDSM scene, and beyond individual preferences of sex and seduction, parties and events, from the beginning and each time more oftenly, include BDSM shows..." (big etcetera follows, page 207). There is a whole chapter about the subject, but I won't transcribe it for you. This should be enough to stop your senseless edit wars without the intervention of an administrator. Trencacloscas 03:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all, are you aware that the first link you provide totally supports the relationship between Goth and BDSM? Your second link does not say anything about the subject(which is the influence of BDSM on Goth subculture). Here it is the exact quote: "Although Gothics tend to appear to be familiar with the practices of bondage by their apparel, most of those people wearing vinyl pants and bondage bracelets don't know the first thing about BDSM and are following a fashion trend. The majority of BDSM practitioners have nothing to do with gothic, and they view bondage gear as a tool, not an accessory". The third one is just a forum-like opinion and it is not even clear; it mentions the crossover between fetish, BDSM and Goth scenes but doesn't say anything about influences. PLEASE GET REAL!!!! I can also provide many internet casual links and references: http://www.nycgoth.com/more/sadomasochism or http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A473924 at a simple query. But I quite prefer books, here's another one: Carol Siegel "Goth's Dark Empire" (pages 8-13 and more too numerous to quote), and also take a look at Corvis Nocturnum "Embracing The Darkness" which points almost the same. By the way, did you ever care to read the expression "to a lesser extent". Since I', tired of attitudes like yours I will rephrase the assertion in a manner that will be incontrovertible. Hope it ends the argument by now. Trencacloscas 21:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not the only person, there's Zazaban over there too, and of course I'm just calling a neutral point of view if there is more nonsense on your side. I just included too more quotes right in English. By the way, if Mick Mercer says something about the subject, why don't you quote him? It is totally imposible that he never touched it. Oh, wait, I read "Hex Files: The Goth Bible" some time ago and guess what?... there was an entire section dedicated to Fetish. A pity I don't have the book with me, do you? Trencacloscas 00:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Certainly, and there are goths that don't dress in black. Mick Mercer is not the only expert or the only one who made researches on the subject, so it doesn't matter in the end. Anyway, I wonder why would he put an entire section about fetish in a Goth book. If he actually wrote that fetish and bdsm never influenced the Goth scene, that would be relevant. But I quite remember it is not the case, and I intend to recover my copy of his book just for the sake of doublechecking. Trencacloscas 13:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no strong opinion one way or another on the above discussion as to whether BDSM has been an influence on the subculture. But I think the following paragraph, on the fashion styles, should mention fetish fashion.
The most obvious examples would be leather collars (with O-rings, etc) and PVC clothing (well, more usually polyurethane in reality). You'd be hard pressed to walk into any goth club without seeing examples of both of those. Roy Badami 12:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The Ideology section goes to relatively great lengths to say that there is no real Goth ideology. So why is there an Ideology section here? I won't remove it, because it's not something I'd bother returning here to keep up with, but the whole article needs serious trimming, and it would be a good start for a "regular" here.
MarkinBoston 03:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the reasons is that a great number of non-goths believe there to be an ideology and quite often their ideas involve satanism and white supremacy. It is needed to explain that that is NOT so. Zazaban 20:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I used to know some people who identified themselves as goth, and their ideas did involve satanism, violence and, if not white supremacy, certainly not tolerance. I know they were not representative of all goths, but I think it's best to leave that section out since it has nothing to do with goths, really. It should be enough to just state in one simple sentence that goths are not associated with any one ideology.-- 80.86.74.135 14:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I think he's given way too much prominence in the criticism section. Either add a few sources and other critics to balance things out, or he should go. Zazaban 21:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
This Portuguese band keeps getting re-added with no explaination. Is it notable enough? Zazaban 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, it's absurd. --marcus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcuspierce ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this article really qualify or should it just be gothic fashion? Zazaban 02:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Anti-fashion is also fashion. I know there is some intend to avoid commercialism and mainstream, but in doing so a new fashion appeared. Alejandro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.127.137.125 ( talk) 17:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed 'underclass' and 'intercultural competence' because neither have anything to do with the goth subculture. The term underclass denotes a socio-economic level that some people live in, not a subculture in which people CHOOSE to join. Intercultural competence, according to the Wiki article, has to do with people of different national cultures getting along,etc... The goth subculture is not a national culture based upon a specific country's long history. Rather, it is a recent subculture based upon music. Crescentia 04:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Zazaban 07:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Gothic metal has nothing to do with the gothic subculture so it shouldn't be included. It is a metal subgenre, not gothic. Even the article says that they are not the same. Crescentia 14:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
below is correct... stop trying to shoehorn "Gothic Metal", which has appropriated the NAME goth, into the subculture. The "goths" who listen to gothic metal are gothic metal fans, not related to the long-term-existing goth subculture. 4.224.228.113 10:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't get it. Gothic Metal is a rock style that combines elements from Metal and Gothic, most Goths today listen to Gothic Metal and any Gothic club these days plays Gothic Metal for the people. It doesn't matter if it is an influence or not, it is a fact. Trencacloscas 21:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The gothic fascination with the macabre has raised public concerns regarding the well-being of goths. The mass media has made reports that have influenced the public view that goths or people associated with the subculture, are malicious ( this however, is incorrect as goth is a pacifist subculture). Some individuals who have either identified themselves or been identified by others as goth, whether correctly or incorrectly, have committed high profile violent crimes, including several school shootings. These incidents and their attribution to the goth scene have helped to propagate a wary perception of Goth in the public eye.[10][11]
I think you are misunderstanding the whole thing. If these people were involved in these crimes, it was not because they were goths, but because they were disturbed or mentally ill people with psychological unbalances, like black criminals, who are not criminals because they are black. When a criminal he belongs to a minority group, that group becomes the target of accusations that should be directed towards the criminal and not the group. Yes, goths do have a fascination for the macabre and darkness in four main ways (or some combination of those four ways):
1. A fascination for darkness and death of spiritual origin. It has nothing to do with grey evil (terrorism, racism, etc), but with the metaphysical evil, which is called the black evil, that is related to deities like Lucifer, Shiva, Odin, etc., who in myths have a sometimes chaotic rôle. But they are archetypal figures. In esoteric traditions, when one emulates their deity, they do not do it in the Christian way, which is to do some things their god did in the very way they say it was done. In esoteric traditions, one symbollicaly does this. So if Kali killed Shiva, it doesn't mean that women have to kill their partners, instead in this case they will have an active (and not passive) rôle in their sexualities, symbolically killing their partners. See http://www.dragonrouge.net/english/philosophy.htm#2.
2. A fascination for darkness and death of ideological origin. Of the "If God is mysogynous, homophobic, ethnocentric, in favour of death penalty, war, animal cruelty, the holocaust, etc, then I'm a satanist", springing from the grey evil so often found in religious organizations, particularly Christian ones.
3. A fascination for darkness and death of emotional origin. People who feel dead because of disgraces that have happened to them, and sometimes, -in a manner of Stockholm Syndrome, fall in love with their sadness, and even sometimes addicted. They feel they need that negative energy, which has replaced positive one.
4. A fascination for darkness and death of egotistical origin. They lean towards the grey evil. In reaction of them has appeared the almost unheard of subculture of the lumen, who are some sort of "white goths". Alejandro
How can one say it is a pacifist subculture? It is apolitical. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.176.14.100 (
talk) 02:49, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
Pacifist doesn't necessarily imply politics. It's simply is a fancy word for non-violent.
Zazaban
02:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've reinstated this claim in (hopefully) more NPOV language, with a reference. Rightly or wrongly (I would say rightly, but then I'm a goth so you might regard me biased :) the goth scene is regularly described as peaceful, non-violent, etc, and that tallies with my experience. I just added the most authoratative reference I could quickly find, but it wouldn't hurt to have maybe one more. Roy Badami 21:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and to comment on the emotional thing (sorry, made the edit before noticing there was a talk secion on it - my bad): By all means write a section on the emotional 'drama' that seems to be a frequent occurence in some parts of the scene. But in the context of a section talking about accusations of mass murder, I think it's reasonable to comment that physical assualt is rare in the Goth subculture, and I think it's clear from context that that's what 'non-violent' means here Roy Badami 21:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
One of the pillars of gothic subculture is a heavy emphasis on individualism. Gothicism is not political or apolitical, it is just not concerned with that issue in an ideological level (if there even is such a thing). That is not a contradiction, because being apolitical is also a political stance, just as atheism is a religious belief. Politics and religion are not a part of the subculture, just as engineering and football are also not part of this. Gothicism, more than an ideology, is an aesthetic tendence involved with classicism (hellenistic antiquity, dark ages, middle ages, reinassance, baroque, romanticism, modernism, victorian, elizabethan and edwardian eras, and finally, post-punk), which in turn extends to all arts. So it can be said that to be a goth, one must fulfill some characteristics that have nothing to do with ideology. This means that a goth can be conservative, communist, anarchist, -and sadly- even a nazi (which is in fact more related to black metal). Does this mean that gothic subculture endorses any form of fascism or racism? Of course not! See the story about Siouxsie and the swastika. Fascism and racism are just things that have nothing to do with it. You can't blame a glass of water for being nazi just because it shows no signs of being against it. Get it? That a goth is not likely to dress like a member of the Masai tribe or believe in the same deities the Melanesians do, does not make her/him racist (And believing otherwise is a serious issue). What a goth believes about how a state should be organised is completely apart from his/her involvement with the subculture. That he wants to "gothicise" his believe in order to embellish it, is also something unrelated. And after having said all that, I must say, however, that there was some liberal-nationalist political tendency amongst 18th and 19th century romanticists that in their age would have been considered leftist and revolutionary, which nowadays, -kidnapped by the punk subculture- have been mixed with imagery and attitudes very undesirable for many goths. Even nowadays we have Liv Kristine (although not directly related to romantics) campaigning for animal rights and (if I remember well) against VIH/AIDS. Again, that is no prescribed gothic behaviour, but there are some political and ethical beliefs a goth is more likely to have. Alejandro
Alright, this section is getting really ugly. I think that our definition of what can be called Goth is highly conservative, and is trying to exactly conform to what it was in 1982. Can't we update a bit? Even other language Wikipedias are way more liberal than us. Zazaban 22:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
An article introduction is a synopsis of the article contents, nothing more. And that is the point. -- Breathtaker 01:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start handing out 24-hour blocks for Wikipedia:Three-revert rule violations if people don't stop edit warring over inserting and removing that section. -- Stormie 02:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Currently, after our introductory section, we have "Origins and development," then our disputed "Associated music" section and "The goth scene" (primarily about music). Then we head off into "Historical and cultural influences", then back to "Ideology" and "Fashion".
I would propose that Music, Fashion and Ideology should be together, since they're what the subculture is "about", and that origins, development, history, cultural influence and the like should all be together, since they're "about the subculture". Perhaps like this:
(followed by references/see also/links)
What does anyone else think? -- Stormie 12:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I would propose somehow emphasizing Bauhaus. I'm an old-school goth. I just think that their influence was a lot more substantial than the others, considering (and I'm not even going to argue this) that the whole Goth movement is based on musical influence. You know it is--speaking directly to any old Goths out there. We have many influences, Baudelaire to Sarte, but it was always about music, and Bauhaus was that music. I'll bow out gracefully if you disagree, but be sure you know what you're talking about. I'm from the San Fancisco late 80s Goth scene. Berlin? Toronto?
Have both the original muisic (As we've always had,) Newer music, and music often mistaken for Goth, Including both Genres like Metal and Emo, and a few bands like Marilyn Manson and maybe The Misfits. Mention that some newer genres status as Goth is disputed by some. Also, perhaps a history section for the evolution of 'Goth' music. Zazaban 15:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a fallacy. Gothic clubs aren't really existent. The most events are Independent music events. Different genres are played and different subcultures are a part of the club scene. Beside the Goth subculture there is a Rivethead culture and a Cyber culture. In the 1980s and early 1990s different subcultures, such as Punks (Pistols, Ramones), EBM-heads (Nitzer 242), Crossover-heads (Ministry, NIN), and New Wavers (Depeche Mode, Anne Clark), were a part of the club culture. Pure gothic events are rare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.50.138 ( talk) 12:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
If the term "goth" has another meaning today and the Goth subculture article includes this new pseudo-goth meaning, i'll create a new big fat Dark Wave article including a section for the old Goth subculture. That's a promise! This new "pseudo-goth subculture" has nothing to do with the original Goth and Dark Wave movement! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.50.138 ( talk) 17:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the accusations of eurocentricity, have a look at the Japanese-inspired goth fashions, inspired in turn by Japanese horror.... which is in turn itself inspired by the West... dammit. Corpman 12:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we possibly refine the paragraph that says that violence done to goths is uncommon? Personally, all of the goths I know (myself included) have to avoid violence more in one month than most people do in a year.. - 99.250.73.234 ( talk) 04:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
A goth is defined by music, clothes and ideology (or different ideologies). A Goth, which don't listen to Goth music and related genres, is no Goth. And this is a fact. Goth is mainly defined by the music. And the Goth subculture is a part of the post punk and dark wave movement. All the other is irrelevant.
Btw: a main problem seems to be that the english-language wikipedia doesn't distinguishs between the Gothic scene (Gothic rock scene) and the Dark Culture (there are also different dark subcultures besides the Goth culture, such as Rivetheads and others). In Germany, we call it Schwarze Szene, in Portugal and Spain it's called Cultura Dark or Cultura Obscura - and the Goth subculture is only a part of this big dark culture. Especially in Europe, there is also a Goth metal scene and a Neofolk/Industrial scene. They all are members of the Dark Culture, but they're no Goths, because Goth is a Post punk movement, not an Industrial or Metal movement. They are different cultures, but they use all the same music clubs (partly with Punks and Psychobillies). -- 87.122.13.226 07:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Dark electros are no Goths.
But yes, a Goth is defined by music, fashion and maybe an ideology. All three characteristics define the Goth movement. Without this there is no Goth subculture. Only the fashion is not a Goth characteristic, because the members of the Visual Kei movement use the same clothes. The same with the attitude or the interests. There are also Black metal and Doom metal scenes. There is a number of different subcultures with the same interests in dark themes. Important is the mixture between all these elements: music (Gothic rock) fashion (dark punky, victorian etc.) and an ideology/attitude (melancholic, spooky, whatever...). Without this, there is no Goth subculture.
And if a dark electro can be a goth, why not also a technohead? or a marilyn manson kiddie? a metalhead or hippie? In your opinion Goths can listen to every kind of music. OK. But important is only the music which a Goth lives so passionately for. And this is and was Gothic rock. In your opinion every kid in black clothes can be a Goth. And this is crap. The Goth movement was mainly a music culture, defined by Gothic rock. You cannot misuse terms which stood for a complete other movement. The Goth scene was a Goth rock scene.
just look at the difference between the early Batcave bands and the "drum machine goth rock" of the Sisters of Mercy. Bullshit. The guitars were the same. Moody slide, dark bass guitars and a post-punk and psychedelic sound. This is Goth rock, nothing more. Alien Sex Fiend was also a Batcave group and they used electronic elements and rhythms. All these bands had definitely a Punk feeling! Because Goth was a post punk movement, not a dark electro, metal, futurepop or techno movement. Goth was born in the cradle of the post punk/new wave era. It was a movement simliar to the New Romantic scene. And if the Goth rock or Darkwave music is dead, the Goth subculture will die. Take a look to Germany. There is the real future. And the future is mixture between metalheads, cyber people, emos and visual keis. In Germany, the Goth subculture dies out. It's only a remnant, which survived in a handful of clubs. -- 87.122.37.126 17:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Suggested compromise:
What if we make a separate article called "gothrock subculture" about the subculture which was based on goth rock. I dont know if you want to call it "goth", or you want to call it "dark romantic post-punk and gothic literature Rob Smith idolatry subculture" by whatever name you call it there is a subculture, or was a subculture based on gothrock, and there is no reliable source which says the subculture based on Marilyn Manson, or the subculture based on "Dark Techno/EBM/RAVE" is the same subculture (in fact, by definition it can't be unless the same human beings become raver mansonites). There are merely numerous unreliable sources ASSUMING rave and heavy metal to be gothrock based on the unsupported assumption that people who occasionally share the same brand of boots are part of the same subculture. If they merely happen to share a label and nothing more then that, it calls for a disambiguation page rather than assuming they are the same group of human beings. The only reason this argument ever happens is because certain people have a FETISH for the word "Goth". It can be documented that fans of gothrock commonly call themself "goth" and call gothrock music "goth", but that the word "goth" has been used to refer to other things in mainstream society. Certain editors are just trying to write an article about the gothrock subculture as it is, and leave aside all the other subcultures and things which have nothing to do with it. gothrock subculture should be documented somewhere (Even if it is now dead.. it once had a notable influence on contemporary society), it should not perpetually confabulated with unrelated things that someone out there calls "goth". This article and gothrock used to be the same article, and this article was specifically about the scene and the subculture which revolved around the gothrock music genre, its fans, performers, and their distinctive subcultural behaviors. But once gothrock was removed from this article it became an article WITH NO DEFINED SCOPE. Rather than being about the gothrock subculture, it became about gothrock mixed together with ALL subcultures anywhere on earth that anyone whatsoever has EVER labeled "goth". The article is not neutral in that it advances the unsupported idea that these separate subcultures are a single subculture. TheDarknessVisible ( talk) 06:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
What in your opinion is the Goth subculture? I wish, Mick Mercer would come and create a new article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.47.120 ( talk) 00:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
So getting back to the point that was being edit-warred over: "Goths prefer to a number of different music genres" isn't quite so bad; I'm not sure it's POV (I mean, surely this is true?) but it's also rather vague (sure, it might be true that some goths also listen to classical music for example, but it's not clear that's a relevant or important point for the lead).
"Gothic music encompasses a number of different styles." has the problem of also being rather vague imo - what do we mean by "Gothic music"? It might be more specific to say something like "The subculture encompasses..." (this is what the article is about, after all)? Later on, we elaborate with "styles of music that were heard in venues that goths attended", so perhaps we could use something like that?
Also see discussion under Talk:Goth subculture#A proposal for the revised music section. - the key point here is music associated with the goth subculture, which should probably be defined as something like styles of music played in clubs and gigs organized by and targetted towards people within the subculture (as Stormie puts it). Mdwh ( talk) 15:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I feel like I have to comment that Goth is not about music. It is an aesthetic and a philosophy. It can be applied to anything: art forms to religion to fashion. I could write this sentence in Goth style, if I so chose. BTW, are any of you actually Goth? Marcuspierce ( talk) 23:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The Sophie Lancaster article has been listed as not meeting notability guidelines. As the deletion of that article would have an effect on parts of this article more input on this question would be welcome at Talk:Sophie_Lancaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Machenphile ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey, apparently there's an edit war or something, because the article is locked to changes. Early in the article, a few styles of dress are listed, and the sentence is phrased, "from a,b,c..." but there's never a "to D." Clearly the "styles ranging from" phrasing should be changed if there's never anything that the styles range to, in the sentence... you know? It would be cool if someone remembered to fix that when the page is unlocked again. 24.223.151.194 ( talk) 10:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if the Gothic Lolita fashion that exists in (mostly) Japan should be mentioned in this article, since I'm no Goth expert, and Goth culture is mostly western. Just thought I would mention it. Lijakaca ( talk) 18:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
No, it isn't. The shared elements are just coincidence, and one just tend to get mislead by the "Gothic" tag. No relation at all. Trencacloscas ( talk) 21:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
All the "gothic lolita's" I ever met, are into goth rock. so.... while the origin of gothic lolita is outside of goth (albeit influenced by goth)... I'm not so convinced that there isn't an influence back onto goth subculture again. Then again.. anecdotal information is meaningless... since .. there is probably a bias on my part as far as the types of people I meet. goths can dress like anything at all... TheDarknessVisible ( talk) 23:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm not a goth, but it seems to me that whoever wrote the "20th century influences" section wandered kind of off-topic for a spell. Maybe consider editing that section or deleting the two consecutive paragraphs that fail mention goth once, but proceed to ramble about random movies? Kajmal ( talk) 13:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
why the missconception that goth subculture started in the eighties? goth rock did, but some early examples of gothic music include faust, le symphonie fantastique, and le danse macabre, the goth subculture is at least several hundred years old, and the majority of gothic imagry and art is from the fourtienth centuary. and im pretty sure necromancers and "goths" are as old as civilisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.66 ( talk) 19:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just reading the start of this article (I guess this topics is linked to it so I don't have to link the article) and I got really dissapointed when I read this: "Also a common trait within goth subculture is crying themselves to sleep every night. This can be problematic as their makeup can get rather smeary at this time, leading to an even higher suicide rate amongst these poor, misguided individuals"
What the hell is that? It looks like some 14 year old boy wrote that because he dislike goths. It is in no way true and may be more associated with the sub-genre "emo". I don't cry myself to sleep, I don't wear makeup, but that bit of text still insulted me.
So please either remove it or explain why that crap is in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.160.106.173 ( talk) 11:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thats not racism in any way. Is any part of it true? Rds865 ( talk) 21:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
When I read the second paragraph, I saw: "Common to all is a tendency towards a lugubrious, mystical sound and outlook. Also a common trait within goth subculture is crying themselves to sleep every night. This can be problematic as their makeup can get rather smeary at this time, leading to an even higher suicide rate amongst these poor, misguided individuals. Styles of dress within the subculture range from death rock, punk, androgynous, medieval, some Renaissance and Victorian style clothes, or combinations of the above, most often with black attire, makeup and hair." However, when I tried to edit it, I saw: "Common to all is a tendency towards a lugubrious, mystical sound and outlook. Styles of dress within the subculture range from death rock, punk, androgynous, medieval, some Renaissance and Victorian style clothes, or combinations of the above, most often with black attire, makeup and hair." Is this vandalism? It seems to be a fairly biased comment with no actual new information. 131.111.8.102 ( talk) 20:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
When has he been considered an originator of gothic rock? New wave? Yes. Synthpop? Yes. Electronic? Yes. Goth? No. Just because the guy influenced some darkwave/synthpop bands doesn't mean the guy has ever been goth. There is a difference bewteen New Wave and early deathrock/gothic rock. I could go on but you get the point. Crescentia ( talk) 01:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I am inviting editors from this article, the gothic rock article and the gothic metal article to engage is discussion on this. It was brought up a year ago whether gothic metal was part of the goth subculture or not and there was no consensus. There was a minor dispute on Template:Goth subculture whether to add it Gothic metal to the template and I need a consensus here so that the correct action can be performed. As I started this discussion, I am going to remain neutral on the decision made here, and I will not be actively participating on one side in particular (in general I will make a few comments, but I am not going to !vote). Please be aware though that the most credible arguments are given when reliable sources are given to back up their view. Your point of view isn't discouraged here, but please keep your personal beliefs and stance focused and again, provide credible sources if they are available to you. Thanks, — Κaiba 02:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Oookay. Ignoring the flame war, I'd venture to say that if an authoritative book on goth subculture like this one: Baddeley, Gavin (2002), Gothic Chic: A Connoisseur's Guide to Dark Culture, London: Plexus Publishing Limited,
ISBN
0859653080 can devote several pages to gothic metal, then yes, we can have the goth subculture tag added onto the gothic metal article here on wikipedia. That's a reliable source. Much better than mere prejudice from one subculture to another. Nobody's saying that gothic metal and the goth subculture are the same thing or completely identical. There's no reason to jump to the conclusion that only goths listen to gothic metal just because the goth subculture template is tagged onto the article. I believe the point that most people will get from that is to realize that gothic metal has attracted a significant number from the goth subculture as an audience. Something that has been recognized, for instance, in
this interview with Tilo Wolff of Lacrimosa. You do not need to be in a band to know this though. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Attend a gothic metal concert today and you'll see many people that clearly belong to the gothic subculture if only because of their distinctive gothic fashion. Last time I checked, metal fashion did not involve going all victorian with corsets and laces. As far as proof that the early gothic metal bands were influenced by goth rock acts, I'd simply point out the references cited in the gothic metal article.--
Bardin (
talk)
14:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Beginning with the slow transition of Paradise Lost and Anathema's musical style to a more gothic flavoured brand of metal, eventually transcending into a modernized form of Gothic rock in its own right, the emergence of Tiamat and the release of "Wildhoney", the collaboration between Atrocity and Das Ich, resulting in "Die Liebe", the groundbreaking success (in relative terms for that subculture) of Theatre Of Tragedy, and finally the existence of numerous bands utilizing lyrical concepts and stylistic elements (both visual and musical) borrowed from Gothic (think Crematory)...I think I have provided a sufficient number of examples to say that Gothic music certainly influenced part of the metal scene, which led to a fusion of two formerly separate genres. Gothic metal as a genre in its own right is definitely both part of Gothic and metal subculture, albeit located on the periphery of both (not being an original part of the core concept). Crossover is not only a musical term, but can be applied to the relevant subcultures as well, influencing ideology, social norms of said subcultures, fashion etc. Don't tell me that hasn't taken place. Social scientists have dealt with those issues, there have been a number of scientific papers on crossover of youth subcultures. The fact that 25 years ago it had been different and metalheads were beating up Goths doesn't change any factual situation we have today. Neither does your status as a Goth DJ for the last 15 years or anything make you an authority on that subject. Oh right, the things you have seen on festivals do not count - that is original research. Please refer to WP:NOR. Though, having said that, I wonder which festivals you frequent. I have seen immense amounts of Goths - yes, real Goths, not "wannabees" by Goth orthodoxy definitions - both at Wacken Open Air and Summer Breeze Open Air when acts remotely connected to the Gothic scene performed. Just like I have seen scores of metalheads on the Wave-Gotik-Treffen or the M'era Luna. In fact, the only festival where I haven't seen any "real" Goths is the Party.San, because the billing obviously hardly caters to that clientele...And hardly any of the Goths I met reduced the subculture to Batcave and acts like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim or Christian Death in musical aspects. Vargher ( talk) 16:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if gothic metal could be considered as a part of the music associated with the goth subculture.But a mentioning through the page won't be a bad idea because:
Xr 1 ( talk) 21:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Italic textPlease don't get it wrong: I am not trying to discredit you, merely saying that I think one should rely on more academic sources, i.e. people who studied the Goth scene from a scientific point of viewItalic text
Yet you are doing just that. I have to ask you do live the culture of a Goth? Have you hug out with and talked with Goths as of late? No you have not people like you and Bardin have not right to clam or say you know what the Goth subculture is like until you live it. I don't give a damn I don't care what damn books and scientific point of view you have. You are insuliting those that live the culture and trying to tell them what there culture is really like. NEWSFLASH YOU don't know jack about may culture and the way I live. I'm both a metalhead and a Goth. And people like you are Bardin are hatefullied people going around trying to tell me what my culture is like. Why don't you try living it before you start telling others what is and what is not part of the culture. -- 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 21:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Here http://www.youtube.com/user/tribalthunder93 now learn a thing or two about the subculture people like you and Bardin clam to know so much about yet really don't. I'm shocked that this site would even let people like you two edit and do other shamful acts like this. You don't know me you don't know my subculture. Stop editing it to fit that of the mainstream media. They do not live nor understand a thing about the Goth subculture. -- 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Attend a gothic metal concert today and you'll see many people that clearly belong to the gothic subculture if only because of their distinctive gothic fashion.>>>
You don't have a clue about what my fashion nor any one else fashion is in are culture. So don't even play that card Bardin. Metalheads dress in black to. People who listen to Rap music dress in black. People who listen to Black Metal dress in black. Shopping at Hot Topic does nto make you Goth. And listening to Gothic Metal dose not make you part of the Goth subculture. It's something you live. And far more Goths don't listen or go to Metal shows. If they do they are called Metalheads. I'm in both worlds I live both worlds. So how dare you come up with these clams. You don't live my culture you never have and you never will.-- 98.224.211.86
Do you know anything about the Goth subculture? No you don't so stop editing pages and telling other people what to do. Stop editing pages about other peoples Cultures that you don't know a thing about. You are rude and mean. And right know you have crossed the line and instulited me and others who are a part of the Goth subculture with you rude remarks. We know are own culture. You don't stop editing it to fit your narrow minded view of what the media tells you it is. They don't have a clue as to what Goths are like. They don't live it and neither do you. Grow up and stop telling others what there subculture has and does not have. Stop telling them what there fashion is and is not. You don't know them. All you know is what you read in the mainstream. If that's all you are going to do is offened people of a culture you don't know a thing about then stop editing there pages. Leave it to the people who are part of the culture. You are not part of the culture there for you have no say in what will go into the article. Leave that to the people who live the culture. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.224.211.86 (
talk)
02:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we all sure that's the best representation we have? Zazaban ( talk) 20:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion? Goth-p1020641.jpg from commons just typed in 'goth' to commons. Ashspirit ( talk) 23:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Fille-goth.jpg
you may notice that the current picture comes firstin the 'goth fashion' search on commons. Ashspirit ( talk) 00:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
good good, someone included them in both goth subculture and fashion articles, but the formatting's a little off... 5 mins of someone's time? i would, but i am useless at such things. Ashspirit ( talk) 01:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The Goths that sacked Rome were Arian Christian, not pagan. They were seen as barbarians and Arianism is a heresy, and their attacks did contribute to the beginning of the Dark Ages. Rds865 ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Just so you know, the debate on whether this is goth or not has been brought up again. I've created this section for its discussion. This would be at least the third time this has been debated. Zazaban ( talk) 19:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Gavin Baddeley is an ordained Reverend in the Church of Satan. That has nothing to do with Goths, or Goth Music. I might as well ask a Jewish person about those who take part in Wiccan religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A book (in French) Carnets Noirs (reprint 2006) dealing with gothic music and other cold music clearly identifies gothic metal as a gothic music (pp.211-225) while specifying however that metal and gothic have long been considered as incompatible genres before. (noting that none could believe that bands like Judas Priest could be associated with acts like Bauhaus.) Yes I don’t doubt some will reject this because it is French or something. But still Wikipedia rules don’t prevent to use sources in other languages.
Anyway I’m not as radical as Bardin concerning this issue, but I support his claims. I know why people deny gothic metal to be gothic music. I understand their logic. If by “gothic” we only refer to music descending directly from post-punk, then yes gothic metal doesn’t belong to that kind of music. However notion of gothic has evolved in popular use and it can be used in a broader sense. Get over it, “Gothic” is not a trademark; the use of the term has evolved to a broader sense.
Moreover I believe many people who deny gothic metal bands are often misinformed about gothic metal. Yes Gothic metal roots belongs to metal. No question about it, but it also takes clear influences from gothic rock and post punk, (and even darkwave btw). That’s a fact. None can deny that.
Gothic metal pioneer Theatre of tragedy was influenced by gothic rock and post-punk including bands like Joy Division and Sisters of mercy. Moonspell has always claimed that their first main influence was Fields of the Nephilim. Type o Negative has been influenced by the Sisters Of Mercy (among other different influences). Paradise Lost was influenced by Sisters of the Mercy too most notably.(as well as New wave acts and originaly darkwave bands like Dead Can Dance) Lacrimosa was a band of darkwave before evolving to some kind of gothic metal.(Yeah I know some purists may deny Darkwave to be gothic, however this music has often been associated with gothic culture) Extreme gothic metal band Cradle of Filth were influenced by bands like Sisters of Mercy and Christian death. They even collaborated with Christian Death on Born Again Anti-Christian album. Extreme gothic metal band Opera IX covered Famous Bauhaus song Bela Lugosi's Dead
Moreover note that first attempts to mix gothic music with metal were not made by metal bands but by gothic rock bands Sister of mercy (vision thing) and death rock acts Christian Death. If you need sources. I can provide some without any problems.
Anyway that’s just my two cents, I’m not ready to engage into a sterile debate. I really couldn’t care less if you include gothic metal or not. Frédérick Duhautpas ( talk) 22:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If you would visit site the deal with The Goth Subculture you would note that A) Metal music is not to be found any where. A) They have more inside info as to what there subculture is about. It's like when a Christian tries and tells people what Wicca is about when they themselves are not Wicca. And picking up a book by someone who is not part of the subculture yet clams to know ever thing about it is full hearted at best.
I'm part Irish so if I want to get info on the Irish people and there culture I can either pick up a book written by a guy who's not even Irish or I can go ask someone who is Irish. Hmmmmmmm what to do what to do. Don't mind me but I'm going to go ask the person who is Irish and from Ireland. I know that is a really low blow for Bardin. But just because you are paid or not paid to write a book about someone else culture does not mean you have the final say in it. In fact you don't have a say in it at all because your not even part of the culture to being with. If you want to know about the Goth Subculture ask a Goth. If you want to know about the Irish ask someone who is Irish. If you want to know about the culture of Japan ask someone from Japan. They are the last and final say on anything that has to do with there Culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 23:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Then you are doing nothing more the race baiting and using blanket statements on whole groups of people. And that is hateful and wrong on so many levels. If that's the way you want and the rest of the people that run this site want to do things. Then look for for many groups to start protesting your Hateful race baiting, blanket uncalled for statements on other peoples cultures. The Irish people are the authorataive of there culture. Same thing with the people of Japan, Goths, people from Finlind, and so on. If you don't get that then you need to take a long look in the mirror. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 ( talk) 01:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
@Crescentia:
Vision Thing doesn't sound metal at all IMHO, Joy Division were post punk not gothic rock, and Dead Can Dance were not darkwave.. A lot of bands have been influenced by Sisters Of Mercy, Christian Death and the older gothic rock bands but should every genre that those bands are in be included?
I just read a translation by the authors of the book you keep referencing. It was a mission statement, and in it they admit to being biased with their opinions.
Just because an album has heavy guitars doesn't make it metal
Just because a band says they are INFLUENCED by another form of music doesn't mean that that bands are that form of music, or are connected to that form of music.
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