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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Dear friends,
The Gospel of St. Matthew the Apostle is of great importance to Christians in particular as a Sacred Book, and to all people generally, as a historical biography of the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, by one of His close Apostles. The Church Fathers are unanimous in telling us St. Matthew the Apostle wrote it.
We understand some modern liberal scholars favor Markan Priority. Ok, fine. But why is Matthean Priority at least not allowed as a legitimate alternative alongside it?
Peace and God Bless. Nishant Xavier NishantXavier ( talk) 13:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George. Are the beliefs of 2.5 billion Christians today, and of many Christians throughout history, "fringe" to you? By definition, they are not. There are more Christians than Atheists and Agnostics combined. Therefore, if anything is fringe, relatively speaking, it is Atheism and Agnosticism.
Matthean Priority is a Legitimate Scholarly Hypothesis. Would you disagree with that? If it is not, why does Wikipedia have a page on the Augustinian Hypothesis /info/en/?search=Augustinian_hypothesis which is a form of Matthean Priority? St. Irenaeus' testimony has historical value.
Peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NishantXavier ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George and Achar. I respect Wikipedia's work. It's been a treasure trove of important information at so many. But I feel legitimate hypotheses should be allowed for academic discussion.
I stress, there are two competing theories, and both are respected and serious. (1) Two Gospel Hypothesis with Matthean Priority. (2) Two Source Hypothesis with Markan Priority.
Just look at the language in which Wikipedia itself refers to each of these ideas respectively, it clearly treats it as serious and respectable, not at all like "flat earth" ideas.
(I) Two Gospel Hypothesis: "The hypothesis, following an original proposal by Augustine of Hippo and expanded by Johann Jakob Griesbach (it was once called the Griesbach hypothesis), was introduced in its current form by William Farmer in 1964.[2] This hypothesis is the most serious alternative to the two-source hypothesis.[3] Its main advantages over the two-source hypothesis include the fact that it relies not just on internal evidence, that it does not require lost sources like the Q document, and that it is supported by the view of the early Church. Unlike the two-source hypothesis, the two-gospel hypothesis concludes that the traditional accounts of the gospels (order and date of publication, as well as authorship) are accurate.[4]" /info/en/?search=Two-gospel_hypothesis and
(II) the Augustinian Hypothesis in particular: "Unlike some competing hypotheses, this hypothesis does not rely on, nor does it argue for, the existence of any document that is not explicitly mentioned in historical testimony. Instead, the hypothesis draws primarily upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism, as the central line of evidence. The foundation of evidence for the hypothesis is the writings of the Church Fathers: historical sources dating back to as early as the first half of the 2nd century, which have been held as authoritative by most Christians for nearly two millennia. Adherents to the Augustinian hypothesis view it as a simple, coherent solution to the synoptic problem." /info/en/?search=Augustinian_hypothesis
Have both of you read the historical testimony of St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, France, on the Gospels and their Priority? Isn't that acceptable history?
Peace. Nishant Xavier NishantXavier ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:34, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George. The Church Fathers were acquainted with the Apostles and their first disciples. St. Irenaeus for e.g. knew St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John the Apostle. This is what St. Irenaeus wrote: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm This is a historical testimony. The historical method requires taking historical sources seriously. This second century testimony says St. Matthew wrote when Ss. Peter and Paul were in Rome.
Here's a source with historical analysis. Is it inadmissible? "Robert Thomas and F. David Farnell concur with this view that the early church fathers taught that Matthew wrote both a Hebrew and Greek version of his Gospel when they write, “Without exception they held that the apostle Matthew wrote the canonical Matthew and that he wrote it first in a Semitic language.”1 ... Irenaeus (c.120–c.202) was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle so his testimony concerning the authorship of the Gospel of Matthew, both in Hebrew and Greek is extremely important." http://hebrewgospel.com/Matthew%20Two%20Gospels%20Main%20Evidence.php
Otto Van Bismarck, mainly for political reasons, did a lot to popularize the theory of Markan priority. http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/farmer.pdf In a fair debate, Markan priority would lose; because there is not one single historical source, from someone who knew the Apostles or their first disciples, that supports it in the slightest. It was universally rejected for nearly 1900 years. Even today, many scholars reject Markan Priority altogether. Please see A.T. Robinson's work on the "tyranny of unexamined assumptions": "Although Robinson was considered a liberal theologian, he challenged the work of like-minded colleagues in the field of exegetical criticism. Specifically, Robinson examined the reliability of the New Testament as he believed that it had been the subject of very little original research during the 20th century. He also wrote that past scholarship was based on a "tyranny of unexamined assumptions" and an "almost wilful blindness".[30] Robinson concluded that much of the New Testament was written before AD 64 ... Robinson placed Matthew as being written sometime between AD 40 and the AD 60s" /info/en/?search=John_Robinson_(bishop_of_Woolwich)#Redating_the_New_Testament_(1976)
Nishant Xavier. 28 March 1:44 IST NishantXavier ( talk) 20:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Proveallthings: I did overlook Stephen Miller's reasoning, and I did it intentionally. And it's because me and you are attempting to do two different things right now. You're attempting to use evidence to find what is true. I'm attempting to survey the literature to find out what most scholars say about this particular question. That's because Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of truth, but a service for summarizing what the scholarly community says. If we were here to discover what is true together on the Wikipedia talk pages, then you would be doing what is right (marshalling the linguistic arguments), and I would be doing something wrong (just quoting a bunch of authorities and pointing out that "your side" here consists only of people with a particular theological set of commitments). So let me be clear. I'm not saying you're wrong about "father". You, and Kenneth Kitchen, might be right. I'm just saying that, in terms of the way Wikipedia weighs sources, Kenneth Kitchen's opinion is out on the fringes in the scholarly world. Alephb ( talk) 21:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Ephemerance objects to the use of the word "Jews" in this ghalf-sentence and wishes to replace it with something else (presumably he objects to the anti-Semitism inherent in the phrase, but Matthew is notoriously anti-Semitic):
The source Georg Strecker, "Theology of the New Testament", this is on page 370: "After the crucifixion he (Matthew) replaces it ("Israel" as a title for the Jewish people) with the word "Ioudaioi", a term used elsewhere by gentiles to designate the Jewish people..." (There's a little more to the sentence, but it's not substantial to the meaning). This is what the source says, and we can't change it, much as Ephemerance would like to. Achar Sva ( talk) 11:36, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
"Ioudaioi" = יהודים = Judeans etymologically; "Jews", which inexplicably drops the radical "D", is an English synonym that does not appear in the Old or the New Testament sources. A Georgian ( talk) 14:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Ephemerance, it's clear that you intend to keep pushing for your preferred edit, and as I'm not convinced by your arguments this will lead only to an edit war if we don't head it off. I therefore suggest that you, as the one trying to introduce the edit, begin a dispute process. What form of process is up to you, but request for comment seems the best option. I can offer advice/help if you wish. Achar Sva ( talk) 09:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Issues brought up in the recent edit dispute:
(1) Resurrection is a significant component of the Gospel of Matthew. (2) There are errors in the current phrasing that contradict primary and secondary sources (3) The argument: "becomes the salvation of the gentiles" is identical with "instructs all of his followers to make disciples of all nations" seems to have more to do with your expressed personal contempt for the Gospel of Matthew (Achar Sva, 25 April 2020: "Matthew is notoriously anti-Semitic") rather than a genuine scholarly observation based on sources. Primary and secondary sources agree (including the originally cited source) that the Great Commission is in reference to all nations, Jewish ones included. (4) Biblegateway is a host for different scholarly material that have been physically published. If the objection is that the physical publication must be referenced, this can easily be done. The Passions Translation bible led by Dr. Simmons is an annotated interpretation between the Greek and Aramaic primary sources (TPT is a secondary source in itself). The Original Aramaic New Testament is a translation by Rev. David Bauscher which demonstrates that "Ioudaioi" has been translated as "Judeans" by some sources. If Rev. David Bauscher's work is considered a primary source (is it?), this is still an appropriate use of a primary source. Even the originally cited source makes reference to "Ioudaioi" and later discusses "Jews" but does not state that "Ioudaioi" is exclusively translated as "Jews". Your objection to this was that you felt "Judeans" makes Matthew seem less "anti-semitic" <-- this makes no sense, it is not a scholarly approach, and brings to question an inappropriate editor's bias on your part. (5) Multiple source have different scholarly interpretations. Even if that source said "Ioudaioi = Jews; Ioudaioi =/= Judeans" (which it doesn't) it is appropriate and in good form to show the other scholarly sources that show "Ioudaioi = Jews OR Judeans". Ephemerance ( talk) 13:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
He had about a gospel of a man called Matthew, his statement has nothing to do with the Gospel of Matthew from the New Testament, according to mainstream Bible scholarship. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Irenaeusin the archives search box, this has been discussed in full detail and has been found wanting.
In any event, Papias does not seem to provide us with the kind of information we can place a lot of confidence in. I should point out, in this connection, that scholars have almost uniformly rejected just about everything else that Papias is recorded to have said in the surviving references to his work.
...
If scholars are inclined to discount what Papias says in virtually every other instance, why is it that they sometimes appeal to his witness in order to show that we have an early tradition that links Matthew to one of our Gospels, and Mark to another? Why do these scholars accept some of what Papias said but not all of what he said? I suspect it is because they want to have support for their own points of view (Matthew really wrote Matthew) and have decided to trust Papias when he confirms their views, and not trust him when he does not.
The result of this quick examination of Papias is, I think, that he passes on stories that he has heard, and he attributes them to people who knew other people who said so. But when he can be checked, he appears to be wrong. Can he be trusted in the places that he cannot be checked? If you have a friend who is consistently wrong when he gives directions to places you are familiar with, do you trust him when he gives directions for someplace you’ve never been?
Papias is not recorded as having said anything about either Luke or John. I’m not sure why. But the bottom line is this: we do not have any solid reference to the authors of our four Gospels in which we can trust (for example, that the author is actually referring to our Matthew and our Mark) until closer to the end of the second century—nearly a full hundred years after these books had been anonymously placed in circulation.
— Bart Ehrman, Jesus, Interrupted, pp. 107-110
The article already has this: "The early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars." That's sourced to Burkett and Duling, and you can follow up with those two. Essentially, modern scholars have concluded that Irenaeus was wrong. Achar Sva ( talk) 21:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
There are evidences pointing to a Hebrew original. http://markhaughwout.com/Bible/Matthew_Hebrew.pdf Edion Petriti ( talk) 06:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Proveallthings: I did overlook Stephen Miller's reasoning, and I did it intentionally. And it's because me and you are attempting to do two different things right now. You're attempting to use evidence to find what is true. I'm attempting to survey the literature to find out what most scholars say about this particular question. That's because Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of truth, but a service for summarizing what the scholarly community says. If we were here to discover what is true together on the Wikipedia talk pages, then you would be doing what is right (marshalling the linguistic arguments), and I would be doing something wrong (just quoting a bunch of authorities and pointing out that "your side" here consists only of people with a particular theological set of commitments). So let me be clear. I'm not saying you're wrong about "father". You, and Kenneth Kitchen, might be right. I'm just saying that, in terms of the way Wikipedia weighs sources, Kenneth Kitchen's opinion is out on the fringes in the scholarly world. Alephb ( talk) 21:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the "compromise" is simply bad editing. The idea of an Aramaic Matthew is held only by a tiny handful of scholars, and the suggested text is way overweight. If you want to mention AM as a viable contemporary position you need some very apposite sourcing. Achar Sva ( talk) 20:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Edion Petriti, this is to warn you, in a way which I hope is both civil and clear, that you are engaged in a pattern of disruptive editing, and that the consequence is likely to be a topic ban. This page explains disruptive editing. I think you don't understand why your editing is disruptive, so I'll explain: you're trying, over and over, to insert into the article a view regarding the composition of the gospel which has been dismissed by mainstream scholarship - i.e., that the Greek Matthew is a translation of an original Aramaic (or Hebrew) version. In the threads above I gave you a link to an excellent brief survey of this theory (Harrington's book), but I see no sign that you've read it. I also see no sign that you're even aware that Wikipedia has an article on the Hebrew gospel hypothesis, although it's linked in the See Also section. So this is what I want you to do: read Harrington; read the Hebrew gospel article; and then, if you sincerely feel this topic is inadequately covered by the existing sentence ("Early Christian tradition attributes the gospel to the apostle Matthew, but this is rejected by modern scholars)", come here and argue your case. Achar Sva ( talk) 07:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
As a note, I have replaced the sentence from the lead that describes Jesus being "rejected and executed in Israel", as it is an exact copy of the sentence from the source. I am passing no editorial judgement on the content; I don't have a horse in that race, but we cannot swipe phrasing from sources. (If you respond please ping me; I'm not watchlisting). ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 01:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have removed an assertion which is unsourced and just completely false, about the church favoring this Gospel over the other three in her formulation of who Jesus is. I also modified the remaining statement to conform to the source: Matthew became regarded as earliest, and most reliable, because it was placed first in the canon, not the other way around! Elizium23 ( talk) 19:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I've moved the info to a new subsection, which can be expanded, and subsequently summarized in the lead. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:13, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
If this summary is the best that can be done with a single secondary source, then we need better sources. Although I would contend that a concise summary without analysis can be accomplished with reference directly to the primary source material, and I would support reverting to the more comprehensive synopsis. Elizium23 ( talk) 06:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Of Saint Matthew has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 11 § Of Saint Matthew until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
07:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Theology of Matthew has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 11 § Theology of Matthew until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
07:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Dear friends,
The Gospel of St. Matthew the Apostle is of great importance to Christians in particular as a Sacred Book, and to all people generally, as a historical biography of the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, by one of His close Apostles. The Church Fathers are unanimous in telling us St. Matthew the Apostle wrote it.
We understand some modern liberal scholars favor Markan Priority. Ok, fine. But why is Matthean Priority at least not allowed as a legitimate alternative alongside it?
Peace and God Bless. Nishant Xavier NishantXavier ( talk) 13:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George. Are the beliefs of 2.5 billion Christians today, and of many Christians throughout history, "fringe" to you? By definition, they are not. There are more Christians than Atheists and Agnostics combined. Therefore, if anything is fringe, relatively speaking, it is Atheism and Agnosticism.
Matthean Priority is a Legitimate Scholarly Hypothesis. Would you disagree with that? If it is not, why does Wikipedia have a page on the Augustinian Hypothesis /info/en/?search=Augustinian_hypothesis which is a form of Matthean Priority? St. Irenaeus' testimony has historical value.
Peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NishantXavier ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George and Achar. I respect Wikipedia's work. It's been a treasure trove of important information at so many. But I feel legitimate hypotheses should be allowed for academic discussion.
I stress, there are two competing theories, and both are respected and serious. (1) Two Gospel Hypothesis with Matthean Priority. (2) Two Source Hypothesis with Markan Priority.
Just look at the language in which Wikipedia itself refers to each of these ideas respectively, it clearly treats it as serious and respectable, not at all like "flat earth" ideas.
(I) Two Gospel Hypothesis: "The hypothesis, following an original proposal by Augustine of Hippo and expanded by Johann Jakob Griesbach (it was once called the Griesbach hypothesis), was introduced in its current form by William Farmer in 1964.[2] This hypothesis is the most serious alternative to the two-source hypothesis.[3] Its main advantages over the two-source hypothesis include the fact that it relies not just on internal evidence, that it does not require lost sources like the Q document, and that it is supported by the view of the early Church. Unlike the two-source hypothesis, the two-gospel hypothesis concludes that the traditional accounts of the gospels (order and date of publication, as well as authorship) are accurate.[4]" /info/en/?search=Two-gospel_hypothesis and
(II) the Augustinian Hypothesis in particular: "Unlike some competing hypotheses, this hypothesis does not rely on, nor does it argue for, the existence of any document that is not explicitly mentioned in historical testimony. Instead, the hypothesis draws primarily upon historical testimony, rather than textual criticism, as the central line of evidence. The foundation of evidence for the hypothesis is the writings of the Church Fathers: historical sources dating back to as early as the first half of the 2nd century, which have been held as authoritative by most Christians for nearly two millennia. Adherents to the Augustinian hypothesis view it as a simple, coherent solution to the synoptic problem." /info/en/?search=Augustinian_hypothesis
Have both of you read the historical testimony of St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, France, on the Gospels and their Priority? Isn't that acceptable history?
Peace. Nishant Xavier NishantXavier ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:34, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi George. The Church Fathers were acquainted with the Apostles and their first disciples. St. Irenaeus for e.g. knew St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John the Apostle. This is what St. Irenaeus wrote: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm This is a historical testimony. The historical method requires taking historical sources seriously. This second century testimony says St. Matthew wrote when Ss. Peter and Paul were in Rome.
Here's a source with historical analysis. Is it inadmissible? "Robert Thomas and F. David Farnell concur with this view that the early church fathers taught that Matthew wrote both a Hebrew and Greek version of his Gospel when they write, “Without exception they held that the apostle Matthew wrote the canonical Matthew and that he wrote it first in a Semitic language.”1 ... Irenaeus (c.120–c.202) was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle so his testimony concerning the authorship of the Gospel of Matthew, both in Hebrew and Greek is extremely important." http://hebrewgospel.com/Matthew%20Two%20Gospels%20Main%20Evidence.php
Otto Van Bismarck, mainly for political reasons, did a lot to popularize the theory of Markan priority. http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/farmer.pdf In a fair debate, Markan priority would lose; because there is not one single historical source, from someone who knew the Apostles or their first disciples, that supports it in the slightest. It was universally rejected for nearly 1900 years. Even today, many scholars reject Markan Priority altogether. Please see A.T. Robinson's work on the "tyranny of unexamined assumptions": "Although Robinson was considered a liberal theologian, he challenged the work of like-minded colleagues in the field of exegetical criticism. Specifically, Robinson examined the reliability of the New Testament as he believed that it had been the subject of very little original research during the 20th century. He also wrote that past scholarship was based on a "tyranny of unexamined assumptions" and an "almost wilful blindness".[30] Robinson concluded that much of the New Testament was written before AD 64 ... Robinson placed Matthew as being written sometime between AD 40 and the AD 60s" /info/en/?search=John_Robinson_(bishop_of_Woolwich)#Redating_the_New_Testament_(1976)
Nishant Xavier. 28 March 1:44 IST NishantXavier ( talk) 20:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Proveallthings: I did overlook Stephen Miller's reasoning, and I did it intentionally. And it's because me and you are attempting to do two different things right now. You're attempting to use evidence to find what is true. I'm attempting to survey the literature to find out what most scholars say about this particular question. That's because Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of truth, but a service for summarizing what the scholarly community says. If we were here to discover what is true together on the Wikipedia talk pages, then you would be doing what is right (marshalling the linguistic arguments), and I would be doing something wrong (just quoting a bunch of authorities and pointing out that "your side" here consists only of people with a particular theological set of commitments). So let me be clear. I'm not saying you're wrong about "father". You, and Kenneth Kitchen, might be right. I'm just saying that, in terms of the way Wikipedia weighs sources, Kenneth Kitchen's opinion is out on the fringes in the scholarly world. Alephb ( talk) 21:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Ephemerance objects to the use of the word "Jews" in this ghalf-sentence and wishes to replace it with something else (presumably he objects to the anti-Semitism inherent in the phrase, but Matthew is notoriously anti-Semitic):
The source Georg Strecker, "Theology of the New Testament", this is on page 370: "After the crucifixion he (Matthew) replaces it ("Israel" as a title for the Jewish people) with the word "Ioudaioi", a term used elsewhere by gentiles to designate the Jewish people..." (There's a little more to the sentence, but it's not substantial to the meaning). This is what the source says, and we can't change it, much as Ephemerance would like to. Achar Sva ( talk) 11:36, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
"Ioudaioi" = יהודים = Judeans etymologically; "Jews", which inexplicably drops the radical "D", is an English synonym that does not appear in the Old or the New Testament sources. A Georgian ( talk) 14:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Ephemerance, it's clear that you intend to keep pushing for your preferred edit, and as I'm not convinced by your arguments this will lead only to an edit war if we don't head it off. I therefore suggest that you, as the one trying to introduce the edit, begin a dispute process. What form of process is up to you, but request for comment seems the best option. I can offer advice/help if you wish. Achar Sva ( talk) 09:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Issues brought up in the recent edit dispute:
(1) Resurrection is a significant component of the Gospel of Matthew. (2) There are errors in the current phrasing that contradict primary and secondary sources (3) The argument: "becomes the salvation of the gentiles" is identical with "instructs all of his followers to make disciples of all nations" seems to have more to do with your expressed personal contempt for the Gospel of Matthew (Achar Sva, 25 April 2020: "Matthew is notoriously anti-Semitic") rather than a genuine scholarly observation based on sources. Primary and secondary sources agree (including the originally cited source) that the Great Commission is in reference to all nations, Jewish ones included. (4) Biblegateway is a host for different scholarly material that have been physically published. If the objection is that the physical publication must be referenced, this can easily be done. The Passions Translation bible led by Dr. Simmons is an annotated interpretation between the Greek and Aramaic primary sources (TPT is a secondary source in itself). The Original Aramaic New Testament is a translation by Rev. David Bauscher which demonstrates that "Ioudaioi" has been translated as "Judeans" by some sources. If Rev. David Bauscher's work is considered a primary source (is it?), this is still an appropriate use of a primary source. Even the originally cited source makes reference to "Ioudaioi" and later discusses "Jews" but does not state that "Ioudaioi" is exclusively translated as "Jews". Your objection to this was that you felt "Judeans" makes Matthew seem less "anti-semitic" <-- this makes no sense, it is not a scholarly approach, and brings to question an inappropriate editor's bias on your part. (5) Multiple source have different scholarly interpretations. Even if that source said "Ioudaioi = Jews; Ioudaioi =/= Judeans" (which it doesn't) it is appropriate and in good form to show the other scholarly sources that show "Ioudaioi = Jews OR Judeans". Ephemerance ( talk) 13:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
He had about a gospel of a man called Matthew, his statement has nothing to do with the Gospel of Matthew from the New Testament, according to mainstream Bible scholarship. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Irenaeusin the archives search box, this has been discussed in full detail and has been found wanting.
In any event, Papias does not seem to provide us with the kind of information we can place a lot of confidence in. I should point out, in this connection, that scholars have almost uniformly rejected just about everything else that Papias is recorded to have said in the surviving references to his work.
...
If scholars are inclined to discount what Papias says in virtually every other instance, why is it that they sometimes appeal to his witness in order to show that we have an early tradition that links Matthew to one of our Gospels, and Mark to another? Why do these scholars accept some of what Papias said but not all of what he said? I suspect it is because they want to have support for their own points of view (Matthew really wrote Matthew) and have decided to trust Papias when he confirms their views, and not trust him when he does not.
The result of this quick examination of Papias is, I think, that he passes on stories that he has heard, and he attributes them to people who knew other people who said so. But when he can be checked, he appears to be wrong. Can he be trusted in the places that he cannot be checked? If you have a friend who is consistently wrong when he gives directions to places you are familiar with, do you trust him when he gives directions for someplace you’ve never been?
Papias is not recorded as having said anything about either Luke or John. I’m not sure why. But the bottom line is this: we do not have any solid reference to the authors of our four Gospels in which we can trust (for example, that the author is actually referring to our Matthew and our Mark) until closer to the end of the second century—nearly a full hundred years after these books had been anonymously placed in circulation.
— Bart Ehrman, Jesus, Interrupted, pp. 107-110
The article already has this: "The early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars." That's sourced to Burkett and Duling, and you can follow up with those two. Essentially, modern scholars have concluded that Irenaeus was wrong. Achar Sva ( talk) 21:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
There are evidences pointing to a Hebrew original. http://markhaughwout.com/Bible/Matthew_Hebrew.pdf Edion Petriti ( talk) 06:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Proveallthings: I did overlook Stephen Miller's reasoning, and I did it intentionally. And it's because me and you are attempting to do two different things right now. You're attempting to use evidence to find what is true. I'm attempting to survey the literature to find out what most scholars say about this particular question. That's because Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of truth, but a service for summarizing what the scholarly community says. If we were here to discover what is true together on the Wikipedia talk pages, then you would be doing what is right (marshalling the linguistic arguments), and I would be doing something wrong (just quoting a bunch of authorities and pointing out that "your side" here consists only of people with a particular theological set of commitments). So let me be clear. I'm not saying you're wrong about "father". You, and Kenneth Kitchen, might be right. I'm just saying that, in terms of the way Wikipedia weighs sources, Kenneth Kitchen's opinion is out on the fringes in the scholarly world. Alephb ( talk) 21:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the "compromise" is simply bad editing. The idea of an Aramaic Matthew is held only by a tiny handful of scholars, and the suggested text is way overweight. If you want to mention AM as a viable contemporary position you need some very apposite sourcing. Achar Sva ( talk) 20:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Edion Petriti, this is to warn you, in a way which I hope is both civil and clear, that you are engaged in a pattern of disruptive editing, and that the consequence is likely to be a topic ban. This page explains disruptive editing. I think you don't understand why your editing is disruptive, so I'll explain: you're trying, over and over, to insert into the article a view regarding the composition of the gospel which has been dismissed by mainstream scholarship - i.e., that the Greek Matthew is a translation of an original Aramaic (or Hebrew) version. In the threads above I gave you a link to an excellent brief survey of this theory (Harrington's book), but I see no sign that you've read it. I also see no sign that you're even aware that Wikipedia has an article on the Hebrew gospel hypothesis, although it's linked in the See Also section. So this is what I want you to do: read Harrington; read the Hebrew gospel article; and then, if you sincerely feel this topic is inadequately covered by the existing sentence ("Early Christian tradition attributes the gospel to the apostle Matthew, but this is rejected by modern scholars)", come here and argue your case. Achar Sva ( talk) 07:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
As a note, I have replaced the sentence from the lead that describes Jesus being "rejected and executed in Israel", as it is an exact copy of the sentence from the source. I am passing no editorial judgement on the content; I don't have a horse in that race, but we cannot swipe phrasing from sources. (If you respond please ping me; I'm not watchlisting). ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 01:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have removed an assertion which is unsourced and just completely false, about the church favoring this Gospel over the other three in her formulation of who Jesus is. I also modified the remaining statement to conform to the source: Matthew became regarded as earliest, and most reliable, because it was placed first in the canon, not the other way around! Elizium23 ( talk) 19:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I've moved the info to a new subsection, which can be expanded, and subsequently summarized in the lead. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:13, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
If this summary is the best that can be done with a single secondary source, then we need better sources. Although I would contend that a concise summary without analysis can be accomplished with reference directly to the primary source material, and I would support reverting to the more comprehensive synopsis. Elizium23 ( talk) 06:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Of Saint Matthew has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 11 § Of Saint Matthew until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
07:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Theology of Matthew has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 11 § Theology of Matthew until a consensus is reached.
Veverve (
talk)
07:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)