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User:Trc inserted the following: Catholic theology does not completely ignore extracanonical sources, which, "with unwarranted and legendary facts...[yet] contain some historical data borrowed from reliable traditions...." [1] His quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, is from the entry on St. Joachim, which also warns "If we were to obey the warning of St. Peter Damian, we should consider it a blameable and needless curiosity to inquire about those things that the Evangelists did not deem it advisable to relate, and, in particular, about the parents of the Blessed Virgin...." etc etc and much in similar vein. Does anyone feel this intrusion is helpful in this entry in any way? For an idea of User:Tnc's contributions, see Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Wetman 04:56, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
User:Trc who hews the RC party line has entered the following statement: "No doctrine of the Catholic Church has origins in an apocryphal writing." This is a deeply dishonest and cynical user who should be carefully monitored. Wetman 07:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure about this paragraph:
It may be fantasy. The quote about Catholic theology not completely ignoring extracanonical sources is true enough, but I would like to see some substantiation for "it [the Protoevangelium] does provide the basis for many of the hymns used in..." and "and for much of their teachings". The latter is conjecture and the former is something that ought to be localizeable in a book. For example, can anyone name a hymn that comes from the Protoevangelium? Or even "many of the hymns"? The "teachings" do not come from apocryphal documents, but rather the apocryphal documents reflect the teachings. That is a point of methodology. Trc | [ msg] 01:18, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The intrusive interjection concerning James, the brother of Jesus (as attested in Scripture), "if one existed" I have now amended to read ("if one existed" some Catholics might interject), which sets it in correct context. What if we realists inserted Purported into every mention of the Purported Virgin Birth? Wetman 07:30, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've changed it to something like "The Gospel of James claims to be written by James the Jus, who the Gospel of James says is the step-brother of Jesus". francis 19:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
== I think there's a problem with the sentence "Interestingly enough, not one work of the genre under discussion [infancy gospels] is in any Bible." (added here). What does the author mean by "any Bible" - any modern Bible? We all know that. And what are they trying to prove with "interestingly enough"? Can anyone who knows more about the topic than me shed any light on this? I'll remove the sentence in a few days if no-one objects. -- Grace 00:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Could you take out the follow up sentences about biblical gospels clearly being jewish books. It's POV and not generally accepted I believe. (IanErc)
The current article reads
"The echoes and parallels of the Old Testament appear to derive from its Greek translation, the Septuagint, as opposed to the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which is noticeable due to several peculiarities and variations present in the Septuagint. It apparently embellishes what is told of events surrounding Mary, prior to and at the moment of Jesus' birth, in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke."
This is problematic, because the Masoretic Text dates between 600-1000 CE (I am sure I have seen later dates from scholars as well) and the period that this article deals with is the mid 2nd Century, 500 years before the Masoretic text was even beginning to be "compiled."
Another issue is that the Greek Lxx text was used by Jews in the Diaspora who spoke primarily Greek, and so to claim that the use of the Lxx. somehow proves that it is a pseudographical work is stretching it. The Lxx is used more often in the NT in quoting the Old Testament than the Masoretic related texts are. I suggest some revision, but I am not sure what. Grailknighthero ( talk) 23:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree the use of the LXX adds nothing to the argument for or against it being pseudographical for the reasons stated. I will therefore amend the article to remove this statement, as I think this is the best approach. Angliananglican ( talk) 14:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Where is the evidence to the proposed „example“ to this work? I would like to read it myself, if anything when I did read the Protoevangelium, the only thing I have read was that the character Mary was chosen, along with six other [a total of seven] „undefiled virgins of the family of David.“ [1]
If there is no evidence found, there is no value in this proposed connection of this article to the Vestal Virgins, and I will see that this „example“ is removed accordingly to Wikipedia's verifiability policy.
序名三「Jyonasan」 Talk Stalk 06:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm puzzled by the statement:
The cited scripture verse is nothing to do with virginity, rather about serving women at the meeting tent who were sleeping with Samuel's sons. That the citation from catholic.com should use this to support the idea that "Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries" is even more puzzling - unless of course the Catholic translation of this verse is entirely different. Can anyone throw light on this? Chris55 ( talk) 17:45, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
allixpeeke ( talk) 09:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Relating to the thread of recent edits, I’m bringing this topic here in talk.
The citation in question comes from the article by Hunter, which says on p. 63, “But by far the most significant document for the post partum and in partu virginity of Mary is the Protevangelium of James, a text which stands as the ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine.” My reading is that here, and supported by the context of the whole article, Hunter is saying that this pertains to the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity ONLY, rather than all Marian doctrine.
Achar Sva, a frequent contributor to this article, contends, “It became the source of almost all Mariological doctrine, not just the perpetual virginity”.
The discussion goes in three directions from here:
1) Does Hunter argue that the protoevangelium is the “ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine” in an unqualified sense, or merely in regards to perpetual virginity?
2) Setting aside for a moment Hunter’s view, is it demonstrably the case that the protoevangelium is the “ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine” in an unqualified sense? That is, even if Hunter did not argue this, is it ultimately true anyway?
3) Is Hunter’s view, even in the qualified sense that I argue for, even a useful point to bring out?
To the first: I think the burden of proof is on Achar Sva to produce better proof that the article is speaking about later Marian doctrine in an unqualified sense. Given that the whole article limits its scope to the issue of the perpetual virginity of Mary, it seems unlikely that Hunter wishes in this moment to make a sweeping claim about all Marian doctrine. Not only is it unlikely, but it’s inappropriate for Hunter to do so. In order to validly make this point in the Wikipedia page, we would need a source that has the proper credentials (standing on a different foundation than a study of 4th century views of perpetual virginity), and can speak about “almost all later Christian doctrine regarding [Mary]” from an expert perspective. Then, it would be reasonable to include this point in the Wikipedia page. However, that source would be hard to find, and if found, be subject some suspicion, based on my second point.
Thus, to the second: Not only does Hunter not seem to be arguing for his point in an unqualified sense, it is simply not the case in an unqualified sense.
From the outset, it should be noted that it’s difficult to speak about Christian doctrine regarding Mary monolithically, since this breaks down further into Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant, etc...
Nevertheless, to refute the point in question requires that in any one of these (but especially one with a history of Marian doctrine), it is not the case that “almost all” of its Marian doctrine finds its ultimate source in the Protoevangelium of James.
Hence, we can look to the Catholic Church, a worthy source to examine considering its size, its demonstrated interest in Marian doctrine, and its clarity with regard to what counts as “doctrine regarding her.”
In the Catholic Church, there are four Marian Dogmas which are officially proclaimed, which constitute the official Marian doctrine. To examine these would give a good picture as to whether something can make a claim to being the “ultimate source of almost all Christian doctrine regarding” Mary.
I. Mary as Mother of God - This doctrine comes from the Council of Ephesus in 431 and is addressed clearly in Pope Pius XI’s 1931 encyclical, Lux Veritatis. Neither our accounts of the Council of Ephesus nor the papal encyclical reference, implicitly or explicitly, the Protoevangelium of James. Instead, the doctrine comes out of the belief in the unity of the two Natures of Christ in one Person. Because a mother is mother of a person and not merely a nature, Mary is understood as the Mother of God, given that Christ is truly God and truly Man. The Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
II. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary - Despite Hunter’s historical claims, the actual definition of this doctrine does not root the teaching in the Protoevangelium of James as anything close to an ultimate source. The virginity of Mary is rooted in Scripture. However, it can even be found in Baptismal formulae of the 3rd century. The Council of the Lateran in 649 said that Mary conceived Christ “without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Canon 3). Lumen Gentium, a document of the Second Vatican Council, confirms this in #57. In neither place is there any reference, implicit or explicit, made to the Protoevangelium of James. Instead, the Scriptures may well be cited, especially Luke 1:34 where the Fathers of the Church comment on the fact that Mary asks the Angel Gabriel, “How can this be, since I do not know man?”. The question makes little sense if it does not point to Mary’s commitment to virginity, since the problem of not knowing man could otherwise be resolved by, well, knowing a man. Where the Second Vatican Council cites sources, it cites: “Conc. Lateranense anni 649, Can. 3: Mansi 10, 1151. S. Leo M., Epist. ad Flav.: PL S4, 7S9. - Conc. Chalcedonense: Mansi 7, 462. - S. Ambrosius, De inst. virg.: PL 16, 320.” The Lateran Council we have addressed. St. Leo, the Council of Chalcedon, and St. Ambrose also do not reference the Protoevangelium. Hence, even in the doctrine about which Hunter writes, it can scarcely be said that the Protoevangelium is the “ultimate source.” It is not ultimate temporally since there are earlier references to belief in the doctrine, and it is not ultimate in importance, since it is not referenced anywhere in the Catholic doctrinal formulations. Certainly we can understand, as Hunter points out, that the Protoevangelium expresses an early tradition. But it would be a vast overstatement to say it became an ultimate source of doctrine.
III. The Immaculate Conception - I will treat of this and the next more quickly. This was defined by Pius IX on December 8, 1854 in his Apostolic Constitution, Ineffabilis Deus. A later document also spoke of it, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum by Pius X, on February 2, 1904. Neither document implicitly or explicitly makes use of the Protoevangelium. Hence, the Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
IV. The Assumption - This doctrine was defined by Pius XII on November 1, 1950 in his Encyclical, Munificentissimus Deus, and referred to later in Lumen Gentium #56. Neither document implicitly or explicitly makes use of the Protoevangelium. Hence, the Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
Perhaps it can be demonstrated that in other Christian traditions, the Protoevangelium of James is the ultimate source, but that remains to be seen. As it stands, the Catholic Church’s complete avoidance of the Protoevangelium in its doctrinal formulations is damning to the claim that it was the ultimate source of almost all later Christian doctrine regarding Mary. Even if one could show that it is a resource for some, it is no where near the case for “almost all.” We could, if we insisted, say that the Protoevangelium is a resource, but then find me some citations from any of “later Marian doctrine” and then we can include it. But that leads onto the final question.
Onto the third: Should this point be included? I would note two things. One, my argument should have at least made it clear that there is more work to be done before this point can validly be made from the sources. And two, I want to acknowledge an implicit polemic that the Wikipedia page seems to portray. By placing this point in a larger sentence about the condemnation of the protoevangelium, not only is it making a claim that doesn’t bear itself out in the sources, but it risks needlessly casting a stone at Christian doctrine about Mary. It does this by juxtaposing the claim that almost all Marian doctrine was founded on this document with the statement that this document was quite seriously condemned. Since Marian doctrine does not find its ultimate source in this document, although it has perhaps seen it as a resource (needs proof), there is no need for the implication. I mean to imply no intentions on the author(s) who produced this part of the Wikipedia page. I mean only to ensure that as an objective source of knowledge, the article does not communicate more than it intends to.
In conclusion, while I feel that my point about (1) is sufficient, it remains the case that (2) and (3) need to be refuted in their own right for the point to remain on the Wikipedia page. Even if Hunter is arguing about Marian doctrine in an unqualified sense, as Achar Sva contends, and even if Hunter is an expert scholar on later Marian doctrine, we should consider it merely one scholarly opinion in the face of many other quite valid scholarly opinions, not the least of which are the opinions of authorities who have promulgated Christian doctrine regarding Mary.
I invite any discussion, and thank Achar Sva for many contributions to this page. Severinus Boethius ( talk) 06:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Brian Reynolds, "Gateway to Heaven: Marian Doctrine and Devotion, Image and Typology in the Patristic and Medieval Periods" (there are of course many more like this, but one is enough to demonstrate that Hunter's idea is a common one in the scholarly world). Reynolds traces the chain of influence some way forward from that point.
Rafaelsornio, you seem to believe that our source (Hunter) says that Origen Mary remained ever-virgin (a virgin before, during, and after the birth). It does not. Hunter says this: "If Origen insisted that Mary remained ever-virgin, he did not believe that this extended to her physical integrity in the process of giving birth to Jesus." ( See page 69 here). He goes on: "Origen ... insisted that Jesus's body truly 'opened' the womb of Mary...". In other words, Origen believed in Mary's virginity before and after the birth, but not during. The Protoevangelium, by contrast, holds that Mary remained a virgin during the birth as well as before and after. If you persist in changing the article to reflect your own views in such clear contradiction of the source, I will be forced to take this to dispute resolution. Achar Sva ( talk) 04:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
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User:Trc inserted the following: Catholic theology does not completely ignore extracanonical sources, which, "with unwarranted and legendary facts...[yet] contain some historical data borrowed from reliable traditions...." [1] His quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, is from the entry on St. Joachim, which also warns "If we were to obey the warning of St. Peter Damian, we should consider it a blameable and needless curiosity to inquire about those things that the Evangelists did not deem it advisable to relate, and, in particular, about the parents of the Blessed Virgin...." etc etc and much in similar vein. Does anyone feel this intrusion is helpful in this entry in any way? For an idea of User:Tnc's contributions, see Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Wetman 04:56, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
User:Trc who hews the RC party line has entered the following statement: "No doctrine of the Catholic Church has origins in an apocryphal writing." This is a deeply dishonest and cynical user who should be carefully monitored. Wetman 07:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure about this paragraph:
It may be fantasy. The quote about Catholic theology not completely ignoring extracanonical sources is true enough, but I would like to see some substantiation for "it [the Protoevangelium] does provide the basis for many of the hymns used in..." and "and for much of their teachings". The latter is conjecture and the former is something that ought to be localizeable in a book. For example, can anyone name a hymn that comes from the Protoevangelium? Or even "many of the hymns"? The "teachings" do not come from apocryphal documents, but rather the apocryphal documents reflect the teachings. That is a point of methodology. Trc | [ msg] 01:18, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The intrusive interjection concerning James, the brother of Jesus (as attested in Scripture), "if one existed" I have now amended to read ("if one existed" some Catholics might interject), which sets it in correct context. What if we realists inserted Purported into every mention of the Purported Virgin Birth? Wetman 07:30, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've changed it to something like "The Gospel of James claims to be written by James the Jus, who the Gospel of James says is the step-brother of Jesus". francis 19:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
== I think there's a problem with the sentence "Interestingly enough, not one work of the genre under discussion [infancy gospels] is in any Bible." (added here). What does the author mean by "any Bible" - any modern Bible? We all know that. And what are they trying to prove with "interestingly enough"? Can anyone who knows more about the topic than me shed any light on this? I'll remove the sentence in a few days if no-one objects. -- Grace 00:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Could you take out the follow up sentences about biblical gospels clearly being jewish books. It's POV and not generally accepted I believe. (IanErc)
The current article reads
"The echoes and parallels of the Old Testament appear to derive from its Greek translation, the Septuagint, as opposed to the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which is noticeable due to several peculiarities and variations present in the Septuagint. It apparently embellishes what is told of events surrounding Mary, prior to and at the moment of Jesus' birth, in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke."
This is problematic, because the Masoretic Text dates between 600-1000 CE (I am sure I have seen later dates from scholars as well) and the period that this article deals with is the mid 2nd Century, 500 years before the Masoretic text was even beginning to be "compiled."
Another issue is that the Greek Lxx text was used by Jews in the Diaspora who spoke primarily Greek, and so to claim that the use of the Lxx. somehow proves that it is a pseudographical work is stretching it. The Lxx is used more often in the NT in quoting the Old Testament than the Masoretic related texts are. I suggest some revision, but I am not sure what. Grailknighthero ( talk) 23:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree the use of the LXX adds nothing to the argument for or against it being pseudographical for the reasons stated. I will therefore amend the article to remove this statement, as I think this is the best approach. Angliananglican ( talk) 14:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Where is the evidence to the proposed „example“ to this work? I would like to read it myself, if anything when I did read the Protoevangelium, the only thing I have read was that the character Mary was chosen, along with six other [a total of seven] „undefiled virgins of the family of David.“ [1]
If there is no evidence found, there is no value in this proposed connection of this article to the Vestal Virgins, and I will see that this „example“ is removed accordingly to Wikipedia's verifiability policy.
序名三「Jyonasan」 Talk Stalk 06:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm puzzled by the statement:
The cited scripture verse is nothing to do with virginity, rather about serving women at the meeting tent who were sleeping with Samuel's sons. That the citation from catholic.com should use this to support the idea that "Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries" is even more puzzling - unless of course the Catholic translation of this verse is entirely different. Can anyone throw light on this? Chris55 ( talk) 17:45, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
allixpeeke ( talk) 09:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Relating to the thread of recent edits, I’m bringing this topic here in talk.
The citation in question comes from the article by Hunter, which says on p. 63, “But by far the most significant document for the post partum and in partu virginity of Mary is the Protevangelium of James, a text which stands as the ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine.” My reading is that here, and supported by the context of the whole article, Hunter is saying that this pertains to the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity ONLY, rather than all Marian doctrine.
Achar Sva, a frequent contributor to this article, contends, “It became the source of almost all Mariological doctrine, not just the perpetual virginity”.
The discussion goes in three directions from here:
1) Does Hunter argue that the protoevangelium is the “ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine” in an unqualified sense, or merely in regards to perpetual virginity?
2) Setting aside for a moment Hunter’s view, is it demonstrably the case that the protoevangelium is the “ultimate source of almost all later Marian doctrine” in an unqualified sense? That is, even if Hunter did not argue this, is it ultimately true anyway?
3) Is Hunter’s view, even in the qualified sense that I argue for, even a useful point to bring out?
To the first: I think the burden of proof is on Achar Sva to produce better proof that the article is speaking about later Marian doctrine in an unqualified sense. Given that the whole article limits its scope to the issue of the perpetual virginity of Mary, it seems unlikely that Hunter wishes in this moment to make a sweeping claim about all Marian doctrine. Not only is it unlikely, but it’s inappropriate for Hunter to do so. In order to validly make this point in the Wikipedia page, we would need a source that has the proper credentials (standing on a different foundation than a study of 4th century views of perpetual virginity), and can speak about “almost all later Christian doctrine regarding [Mary]” from an expert perspective. Then, it would be reasonable to include this point in the Wikipedia page. However, that source would be hard to find, and if found, be subject some suspicion, based on my second point.
Thus, to the second: Not only does Hunter not seem to be arguing for his point in an unqualified sense, it is simply not the case in an unqualified sense.
From the outset, it should be noted that it’s difficult to speak about Christian doctrine regarding Mary monolithically, since this breaks down further into Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant, etc...
Nevertheless, to refute the point in question requires that in any one of these (but especially one with a history of Marian doctrine), it is not the case that “almost all” of its Marian doctrine finds its ultimate source in the Protoevangelium of James.
Hence, we can look to the Catholic Church, a worthy source to examine considering its size, its demonstrated interest in Marian doctrine, and its clarity with regard to what counts as “doctrine regarding her.”
In the Catholic Church, there are four Marian Dogmas which are officially proclaimed, which constitute the official Marian doctrine. To examine these would give a good picture as to whether something can make a claim to being the “ultimate source of almost all Christian doctrine regarding” Mary.
I. Mary as Mother of God - This doctrine comes from the Council of Ephesus in 431 and is addressed clearly in Pope Pius XI’s 1931 encyclical, Lux Veritatis. Neither our accounts of the Council of Ephesus nor the papal encyclical reference, implicitly or explicitly, the Protoevangelium of James. Instead, the doctrine comes out of the belief in the unity of the two Natures of Christ in one Person. Because a mother is mother of a person and not merely a nature, Mary is understood as the Mother of God, given that Christ is truly God and truly Man. The Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
II. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary - Despite Hunter’s historical claims, the actual definition of this doctrine does not root the teaching in the Protoevangelium of James as anything close to an ultimate source. The virginity of Mary is rooted in Scripture. However, it can even be found in Baptismal formulae of the 3rd century. The Council of the Lateran in 649 said that Mary conceived Christ “without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Canon 3). Lumen Gentium, a document of the Second Vatican Council, confirms this in #57. In neither place is there any reference, implicit or explicit, made to the Protoevangelium of James. Instead, the Scriptures may well be cited, especially Luke 1:34 where the Fathers of the Church comment on the fact that Mary asks the Angel Gabriel, “How can this be, since I do not know man?”. The question makes little sense if it does not point to Mary’s commitment to virginity, since the problem of not knowing man could otherwise be resolved by, well, knowing a man. Where the Second Vatican Council cites sources, it cites: “Conc. Lateranense anni 649, Can. 3: Mansi 10, 1151. S. Leo M., Epist. ad Flav.: PL S4, 7S9. - Conc. Chalcedonense: Mansi 7, 462. - S. Ambrosius, De inst. virg.: PL 16, 320.” The Lateran Council we have addressed. St. Leo, the Council of Chalcedon, and St. Ambrose also do not reference the Protoevangelium. Hence, even in the doctrine about which Hunter writes, it can scarcely be said that the Protoevangelium is the “ultimate source.” It is not ultimate temporally since there are earlier references to belief in the doctrine, and it is not ultimate in importance, since it is not referenced anywhere in the Catholic doctrinal formulations. Certainly we can understand, as Hunter points out, that the Protoevangelium expresses an early tradition. But it would be a vast overstatement to say it became an ultimate source of doctrine.
III. The Immaculate Conception - I will treat of this and the next more quickly. This was defined by Pius IX on December 8, 1854 in his Apostolic Constitution, Ineffabilis Deus. A later document also spoke of it, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum by Pius X, on February 2, 1904. Neither document implicitly or explicitly makes use of the Protoevangelium. Hence, the Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
IV. The Assumption - This doctrine was defined by Pius XII on November 1, 1950 in his Encyclical, Munificentissimus Deus, and referred to later in Lumen Gentium #56. Neither document implicitly or explicitly makes use of the Protoevangelium. Hence, the Protoevangelium of James is not a useful, let alone ultimate, source here.
Perhaps it can be demonstrated that in other Christian traditions, the Protoevangelium of James is the ultimate source, but that remains to be seen. As it stands, the Catholic Church’s complete avoidance of the Protoevangelium in its doctrinal formulations is damning to the claim that it was the ultimate source of almost all later Christian doctrine regarding Mary. Even if one could show that it is a resource for some, it is no where near the case for “almost all.” We could, if we insisted, say that the Protoevangelium is a resource, but then find me some citations from any of “later Marian doctrine” and then we can include it. But that leads onto the final question.
Onto the third: Should this point be included? I would note two things. One, my argument should have at least made it clear that there is more work to be done before this point can validly be made from the sources. And two, I want to acknowledge an implicit polemic that the Wikipedia page seems to portray. By placing this point in a larger sentence about the condemnation of the protoevangelium, not only is it making a claim that doesn’t bear itself out in the sources, but it risks needlessly casting a stone at Christian doctrine about Mary. It does this by juxtaposing the claim that almost all Marian doctrine was founded on this document with the statement that this document was quite seriously condemned. Since Marian doctrine does not find its ultimate source in this document, although it has perhaps seen it as a resource (needs proof), there is no need for the implication. I mean to imply no intentions on the author(s) who produced this part of the Wikipedia page. I mean only to ensure that as an objective source of knowledge, the article does not communicate more than it intends to.
In conclusion, while I feel that my point about (1) is sufficient, it remains the case that (2) and (3) need to be refuted in their own right for the point to remain on the Wikipedia page. Even if Hunter is arguing about Marian doctrine in an unqualified sense, as Achar Sva contends, and even if Hunter is an expert scholar on later Marian doctrine, we should consider it merely one scholarly opinion in the face of many other quite valid scholarly opinions, not the least of which are the opinions of authorities who have promulgated Christian doctrine regarding Mary.
I invite any discussion, and thank Achar Sva for many contributions to this page. Severinus Boethius ( talk) 06:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Brian Reynolds, "Gateway to Heaven: Marian Doctrine and Devotion, Image and Typology in the Patristic and Medieval Periods" (there are of course many more like this, but one is enough to demonstrate that Hunter's idea is a common one in the scholarly world). Reynolds traces the chain of influence some way forward from that point.
Rafaelsornio, you seem to believe that our source (Hunter) says that Origen Mary remained ever-virgin (a virgin before, during, and after the birth). It does not. Hunter says this: "If Origen insisted that Mary remained ever-virgin, he did not believe that this extended to her physical integrity in the process of giving birth to Jesus." ( See page 69 here). He goes on: "Origen ... insisted that Jesus's body truly 'opened' the womb of Mary...". In other words, Origen believed in Mary's virginity before and after the birth, but not during. The Protoevangelium, by contrast, holds that Mary remained a virgin during the birth as well as before and after. If you persist in changing the article to reflect your own views in such clear contradiction of the source, I will be forced to take this to dispute resolution. Achar Sva ( talk) 04:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)