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The lede states as fact that Mark was written first followed by Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke used mark along with the Q source, however, this is just one hypothesis that cannot be known for certain at this point. It also states that Luke and Matthew used sources unique to them, which verges on veering into the less accepted four source hypothesis. My edit clarifying this was reverted, but I think this is an important clarification. The lede can also state that the two source hypothesis is widely accepted, perhaps this is a good middle ground? Wasianpower ( talk) 22:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
See User:Tgeorgescu/sandbox3. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
What's the relevance of Robyn Faith Walsh (2021), The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament? Being published by CUP does not establish its relevance; impact does. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
No, sources published by CUP and the like are not "inherently impactful." Where's the "spirited debate"? Zero citations at Google Scholar, as far as I can see. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:23, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. The text was published by a reliable source. Other scholars have reviewed the text and readily accepted that its positions are well within bounds and worthy of discussion. Looking at the other passages in the same section, there are two other CUP sources dating to 2002 and 1998. The
spirited debateis already happening in the sources. I see no policy argument for exclusion. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 12:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
However, when reputable sources contradict one another and[bolding original]
are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. Walsh is a regularly published author on the subject, with secondary source reviews that reliably describe the contrasting viewpoints. Altering the passage to reflect the critiques of Walsh's perspective would not only ensure we have the most recent, reliably sourced scholarship but that we also have substantive critiques of said perspective. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 14:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
BURDEN means providing a policy-based rationale for inclusion, which I did. Despite policy indicating a strong basis for inclusion and opposition to inclusion being based on sourcing preexisting this reliable source publication, I have alternatively proposed the edit I made to another article as a temporary solution. Please feel welcome to respond to that. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 05:23, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. Since that material had stood for over a month, with several other editors actively working on the article in-between, that would mean restoring the passage. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 13:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Finally, a more extensive answer! Given that two separate editors favor inclusion, there's actually an even split at present. Also, ONUS gives way to NOCON, given that the material survived uncontested for so long. You have no consensus for the BOLD deletion of the passage. Don't accuse me ignoring policy when I've explained my policy basis for everything—that's uncivil. Please also see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, as it is unusual that you didn't ping the editor who originally included the material. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 14:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
I first heard of Robyn Faith Walsh on Reddit earlier in the year. From what it looked like, most serious scholars appear to take her work seriously (Including Bart Ehrman). The multiple reviews written means that it meets WP:BKCRIT and WP:NB. I was stunned to find that no mention of her work appeared on Wikipedia when I last checked despite her being so prolific these past couple years. Heck, the book itself doesn't even have an article. There is no question in my mind that this book is not a WP:FRINGE take. Scorpions1325 ( talk) 00:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
I can take up that task. I already have a dozen tabs on the book open so I probably can manage it the best from the start. Once I have it up and running, I'll tag you two on its talk. Thanks ~ Pbritti ( talk) 05:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
More recently, however, the notion that the gospel authors are writing for a “more common” audience has been challenged. For an argument in favor of the Gospels as products by and for the literary for elite, see Walsh (2020).
@IP: You're dumbing down the article. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:05, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gospel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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|
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The lede states as fact that Mark was written first followed by Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke used mark along with the Q source, however, this is just one hypothesis that cannot be known for certain at this point. It also states that Luke and Matthew used sources unique to them, which verges on veering into the less accepted four source hypothesis. My edit clarifying this was reverted, but I think this is an important clarification. The lede can also state that the two source hypothesis is widely accepted, perhaps this is a good middle ground? Wasianpower ( talk) 22:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
See User:Tgeorgescu/sandbox3. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
What's the relevance of Robyn Faith Walsh (2021), The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament? Being published by CUP does not establish its relevance; impact does. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
No, sources published by CUP and the like are not "inherently impactful." Where's the "spirited debate"? Zero citations at Google Scholar, as far as I can see. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:23, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. The text was published by a reliable source. Other scholars have reviewed the text and readily accepted that its positions are well within bounds and worthy of discussion. Looking at the other passages in the same section, there are two other CUP sources dating to 2002 and 1998. The
spirited debateis already happening in the sources. I see no policy argument for exclusion. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 12:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
However, when reputable sources contradict one another and[bolding original]
are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. Walsh is a regularly published author on the subject, with secondary source reviews that reliably describe the contrasting viewpoints. Altering the passage to reflect the critiques of Walsh's perspective would not only ensure we have the most recent, reliably sourced scholarship but that we also have substantive critiques of said perspective. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 14:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
BURDEN means providing a policy-based rationale for inclusion, which I did. Despite policy indicating a strong basis for inclusion and opposition to inclusion being based on sourcing preexisting this reliable source publication, I have alternatively proposed the edit I made to another article as a temporary solution. Please feel welcome to respond to that. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 05:23, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. Since that material had stood for over a month, with several other editors actively working on the article in-between, that would mean restoring the passage. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 13:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Finally, a more extensive answer! Given that two separate editors favor inclusion, there's actually an even split at present. Also, ONUS gives way to NOCON, given that the material survived uncontested for so long. You have no consensus for the BOLD deletion of the passage. Don't accuse me ignoring policy when I've explained my policy basis for everything—that's uncivil. Please also see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, as it is unusual that you didn't ping the editor who originally included the material. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 14:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
I first heard of Robyn Faith Walsh on Reddit earlier in the year. From what it looked like, most serious scholars appear to take her work seriously (Including Bart Ehrman). The multiple reviews written means that it meets WP:BKCRIT and WP:NB. I was stunned to find that no mention of her work appeared on Wikipedia when I last checked despite her being so prolific these past couple years. Heck, the book itself doesn't even have an article. There is no question in my mind that this book is not a WP:FRINGE take. Scorpions1325 ( talk) 00:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
I can take up that task. I already have a dozen tabs on the book open so I probably can manage it the best from the start. Once I have it up and running, I'll tag you two on its talk. Thanks ~ Pbritti ( talk) 05:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
More recently, however, the notion that the gospel authors are writing for a “more common” audience has been challenged. For an argument in favor of the Gospels as products by and for the literary for elite, see Walsh (2020).
@IP: You're dumbing down the article. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:05, 27 January 2024 (UTC)