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Since it looks like people are going to keep adding in their play places, we might as well have a sub-section for them and one that makes it very clear what they are. This differentiates it from the offline and lifestyle web sites.
-- Malkinius 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I deleted or modified the most egregious BDSM and misogynist references and noted that the Barsoom references are not the whole series but mostly in the first book, opening section, and in the early books in the series. I do not remember in which book Tarl stopped sending the manuscripts back or I would have included that.
Malkinius
I've taken out the link to the non-existant "Gorean Slave Positions" page. If anyone does want to write this up (and God knows there are enough versions of this on the web to make it unnecessary), I think it would better enrich the kajira page. Mind you, expanding that page would be a fine thing. Wyvern 23:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I honestly can't see calling something a "Redneck soap opera" or something being "edited by Rednecks" in an encyclopedia. The article also seems to be leaning towards an opinion that, to use the vernacular, "John Norman is teh suk lolol". In fact, I believe the last paragraph of "General notes" is mainly hogwash and could be deleted easily. "His greatest works are considered his first third..." By who? Certainly not me. Where is this information coming from? Kyou 17:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
i removed that last paragraph because it doesn't contribute anything at all to the article. it is clearly biased, and if i may say so, it is just flamebait. why would you put that paragraph back? it lowers the quality of the article by a huge margin. who gets to decide that the paragraph stays, hmm?
The word "erotica" and reference has obvious place as large portions of the books deal with human sexuality.
Agree with the "BDSM" removal. "Erotica" alone is more fitting since the nature of S&M especially is denounced in the novels as a sickness resulting from sexual repression/denial - what the author sees the modern world suffering from. Punishment, and punishment for sexual arousal arent the same thing. Men who are truly able to be masculine and who have a healthy sexuality dont need to beat women to arouse themselves or to "feel" dominant. It is only in a society that attempts to deny the respective masculine and feminine natures of humanity that such a necessity would occur, for nature cannot truly be denied, and any such attempt will lead only to sickness.
(I'm not championing these ideas or promoting them, I am simply stating what the author presents in his novels, regardless of if any of us agree with his conclusions or not. So dont take this as a "sales pitch" of Gorean philosophy.)
It's been a long time since I read any of the Gor series (well, except Slave of Gor a year ago or so) and I've forgotten whether there are detailed rules for Gorean chess, and if it has a proper name in Gorean. Dropped by here between the Barsoom page (looking for Martian chess) and the Ouroboros page, then the variants of chess page. Does Gorean chess have known rules, or is it only known through vaguenesses in the text? Skookum1 06:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I once heard someone claim that the Gor novels have never been out of print. Can anyone confirm or refute this? It would be interesting to add some notes about its commercial success to the article. (I personally think the writing is terrible and the underlying philosophical assertions are mildly offensive. I won't publicly comment on my personal feelings towards BDSM; just that I find it offensive to read a novel that repeatedly claims that male domination and female submission are generally part of some "natural order" and that certain aspects of S&M are the result of our attempts to suppress this "natural order"). Regardless of my personal opinion I think that it is noteworthy that the books show a lasting popularity (and perhaps some degree of ongoing commercial success). (Personally I find those facts to be far more revealling about social trends than the author's own views). JimD ( talk) 22:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
At some point we should write up a section on the literary influence of the Gor novels. People have long remarked on their own antecedents, particularly the "planetary adventure" stories such as ERB's Mars novels. The Gor novels were ground-breaking and experimental in their day and have had much influence on later authors, not in the least by demonstrating that one could write about sex in a SF novel, even (or particularly) nonconventional sex, and still get published. Wyvern 02:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
What is this specifically supposed to mean, beyond and above the article's acknowledgement that there's a general overall Gorean power imbalance in favor of men?? The upper-class women of Gor's northern cities in fact have a higher social status than women in many traditional Islamic societies, and at least on Gor there's never any religious justification offered for male supremacy (given Norman's dismissive attitude towards religion, reflected in the involuted nature of the Gorean "Initiates" -- though there are Gorean "foundation myths", not the same thing).
If you wouldn't write "free women of the Abbasid caliphate were compelled to acknowledge the superiority of all men", then don't write "free women of Gor are compelled to acknowledge the superiority of all men". AnonMoos
Ghetto Girls of Gor (the intentionally lost scrolls) is listed under parody/humor. Maybe I just haven't encountered enough Gor stuff, but I can't see the parody/humor in it; to me it reads as a straight piece of fan-fiction involving the basic universe. Perhaps someone could leave a note here explaining why it's parody/humor?? 156.34.221.174 18:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, Gay, Bejeweled, Nazi Bikers of Gor doesn't work for me. Can anyone access the link, or should it be removed as dead? 156.34.221.174 18:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone's changed 'British professor Tarl Cabot' to 'New England professor Tarl Cabot.' He's British, but taught for one term in a New England college; this seems tricky to explain well. I'm thinking of just calling him British, since his teaching carreer was short and of little consequence. Comments? Wyvern 20:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
On the matter of Tarl Cabot's surname might it have been chosen by John Norman as a nod to Ralph Milne Farley's 'Myles Cabot' character? Apparently Farley was a friend of Edgar Rice Borroughs and was writing similar interplanetary swordsman type stuff. I must confess I've not (yet) read any of this Ralph Milne Farley's books though. Wageslave61 21:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I just edited out the bit at the top of the page where someone edited in, " The Counter-Earth(this phrase has never been mentioned in any of the Gor books.)]]" (Good grief.) I am holding in my hand a copy of Captive of Gor, 1972, ISBN 345029941095, and I QUOTE from the cover: "VOLUME VII IN THE CHRONICLES OF COUNTER-EARTH" Between the title, and the author's name. Good enough citation??? Evening Scribe 08:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a version of the flag flown by the ships of Bosk of Port Kar, and will probably be adding it to the page in a day or two: -- AnonMoos 09:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This is one visual interpretation of the "moons and collar" brand of the Priest-kings, as described in Gor book 13 (i.e. the three moons of Gor ascending diagonally above a closed collar). This seems to be the closest thing to a general overall Gor emblem which is included in the Gor books (unless you count the golden circle of the caste of the initiates), and so might be useful for the Gor article in that respect (though according to Norman, the moons and collar is actually only rather rarely encountered on Gor itself...).
AnonMoos (
talk)
15:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Made a diagram of the Gor as the "counter-earth" according to the descriptions in the books, and will be adding to the article when I figure out the best way to do so... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Image:Hunters of gor.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The simplified map shows the Sardar Mountains as being north of the Vosk. They are actually south and somewhat inland of the coastal city of Brundisium - approximately above the "Civ" in "Civilised" on the map. There was some ambiguity in the early books as to the exact location of the Sardar but the descriptions of Tarl's travels in Players of Gor make it clear this is where they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.165.2 ( talk) 12:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Somehow, this article seems to go out of its way to avoid mentioning the main point of these books, and the reason they are (in)famous among fantasy fiction. From an article by Dave Langford:
Our article, by contrast, vaguely describes the setting of the novels, their plotlines and their historical influences; but nowhere mentions that they're about a misogynistic society where women are enslaved by men, or that they're basically one long BDSM fantasy. Surely that's the only reason why anyone reads them, not for the 'intricately detailed' flora and fauna? Would it be too much to put the above one-line description from the Encyclopedia of Fantasy into the lead of this article? Robofish ( talk) 23:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Belated additional comment: During the last two years or so, the original Gor paperbacks have begun to trickle back into used bookstores near where I live (after a roughly ten-year period when they were very rarely available), and it seems that the ones which now least frequently show up are books 15, 16, and 17, relevant to my comments above... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:14, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
As I read through Joel Rosenberg's the Guardians of the Flame, I come to notice more and more parallels to Norman's Gor-series; much so that I would call it an antithesis to Gor. This begins with the slaves being "collared" and continues on the prename of the protagonist, Karl Cullinane. Is anything published to that respect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.204.99.241 ( talk) 21:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the current descriptions attached to two sites in the External Links section.
This is my rationale for updating these descriptions. — HipLibrarianship talk 07:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
This statement -
The planet Gor has lower gravity than Earth's (which allows for the existence of large flying creatures
My understanding of physics is maybe not as good as some people here, but I think lower gravity means lower air density and makes it harder to fly, so the creatures would need to have wide wing spans, but smaller bodies.
Can someone who understands this better speak to this subject? Jokem ( talk) 18:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I have come back to this after a few years. It looks like the people here are contradicting each other. I claim that higher gravity means greater air density. I think that is consistent with the laws of physics. The only exception I can think of is the case where the atmosphere itself is made up of lighter or heavier components. Jokem ( talk) 09:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In the case of Gor, it has a breathable atmosphere, not at all like the atmosphere of Venus. Jokem ( talk) 06:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of this? An IndieGogo campaign with a $5000 goal raised #5,505. I'm a bit unclear on its dates. It says it closed 1 October 2014 but when I check the earliest archive, from 15 October 2014 it says it closed 30 September 2014. I know it's just 1 day's difference but it seems odd. The archive says it started August 21 but the current version doesn't state when it started.
It is supposed to be done by James 'Grim' Desborough from Andover of Postmortem Studios with art by Michael Manning. It is apparently being developed in association with ORIM.
There is supposed to be 2 books:
According to a May 2015 update it was supposed to be done by August 2015, the last word I can find is January 2016 where they are still previewing art so it wasn't done by then.
I can't figure out if this is an officially licensed product or not. Does anyone know if John Norman approved it or not? Ranze ( talk) 20:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
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The book list is said to have books with another protagonist than Tarl Cabot in italic, however, all books are listed in italic.
I don't know off the top of my head which books are with another protagonist, so I can't fix it, but it'd be great if someone with that knowledge did.
Why does the thing in the upper right corner have a list of words? Tarnsman, etc. Isn't there supposed to be some sort of header, like "Concepts" or "Known For"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.198.87.192 ( talk) 02:20, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
The January proposal to merge Kajira to here seems very reasonable; not a concept with notability outside of the world of Gor, and many of the critisms of the series focus on Kajira (so, best discussed here). Klbrain ( talk) 09:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Sa'fora and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 15#Sa'fora until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 08:17, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
The contents of the Kajira page were merged into Gor on 8 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gor article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Since it looks like people are going to keep adding in their play places, we might as well have a sub-section for them and one that makes it very clear what they are. This differentiates it from the offline and lifestyle web sites.
-- Malkinius 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I deleted or modified the most egregious BDSM and misogynist references and noted that the Barsoom references are not the whole series but mostly in the first book, opening section, and in the early books in the series. I do not remember in which book Tarl stopped sending the manuscripts back or I would have included that.
Malkinius
I've taken out the link to the non-existant "Gorean Slave Positions" page. If anyone does want to write this up (and God knows there are enough versions of this on the web to make it unnecessary), I think it would better enrich the kajira page. Mind you, expanding that page would be a fine thing. Wyvern 23:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I honestly can't see calling something a "Redneck soap opera" or something being "edited by Rednecks" in an encyclopedia. The article also seems to be leaning towards an opinion that, to use the vernacular, "John Norman is teh suk lolol". In fact, I believe the last paragraph of "General notes" is mainly hogwash and could be deleted easily. "His greatest works are considered his first third..." By who? Certainly not me. Where is this information coming from? Kyou 17:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
i removed that last paragraph because it doesn't contribute anything at all to the article. it is clearly biased, and if i may say so, it is just flamebait. why would you put that paragraph back? it lowers the quality of the article by a huge margin. who gets to decide that the paragraph stays, hmm?
The word "erotica" and reference has obvious place as large portions of the books deal with human sexuality.
Agree with the "BDSM" removal. "Erotica" alone is more fitting since the nature of S&M especially is denounced in the novels as a sickness resulting from sexual repression/denial - what the author sees the modern world suffering from. Punishment, and punishment for sexual arousal arent the same thing. Men who are truly able to be masculine and who have a healthy sexuality dont need to beat women to arouse themselves or to "feel" dominant. It is only in a society that attempts to deny the respective masculine and feminine natures of humanity that such a necessity would occur, for nature cannot truly be denied, and any such attempt will lead only to sickness.
(I'm not championing these ideas or promoting them, I am simply stating what the author presents in his novels, regardless of if any of us agree with his conclusions or not. So dont take this as a "sales pitch" of Gorean philosophy.)
It's been a long time since I read any of the Gor series (well, except Slave of Gor a year ago or so) and I've forgotten whether there are detailed rules for Gorean chess, and if it has a proper name in Gorean. Dropped by here between the Barsoom page (looking for Martian chess) and the Ouroboros page, then the variants of chess page. Does Gorean chess have known rules, or is it only known through vaguenesses in the text? Skookum1 06:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I once heard someone claim that the Gor novels have never been out of print. Can anyone confirm or refute this? It would be interesting to add some notes about its commercial success to the article. (I personally think the writing is terrible and the underlying philosophical assertions are mildly offensive. I won't publicly comment on my personal feelings towards BDSM; just that I find it offensive to read a novel that repeatedly claims that male domination and female submission are generally part of some "natural order" and that certain aspects of S&M are the result of our attempts to suppress this "natural order"). Regardless of my personal opinion I think that it is noteworthy that the books show a lasting popularity (and perhaps some degree of ongoing commercial success). (Personally I find those facts to be far more revealling about social trends than the author's own views). JimD ( talk) 22:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
At some point we should write up a section on the literary influence of the Gor novels. People have long remarked on their own antecedents, particularly the "planetary adventure" stories such as ERB's Mars novels. The Gor novels were ground-breaking and experimental in their day and have had much influence on later authors, not in the least by demonstrating that one could write about sex in a SF novel, even (or particularly) nonconventional sex, and still get published. Wyvern 02:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
What is this specifically supposed to mean, beyond and above the article's acknowledgement that there's a general overall Gorean power imbalance in favor of men?? The upper-class women of Gor's northern cities in fact have a higher social status than women in many traditional Islamic societies, and at least on Gor there's never any religious justification offered for male supremacy (given Norman's dismissive attitude towards religion, reflected in the involuted nature of the Gorean "Initiates" -- though there are Gorean "foundation myths", not the same thing).
If you wouldn't write "free women of the Abbasid caliphate were compelled to acknowledge the superiority of all men", then don't write "free women of Gor are compelled to acknowledge the superiority of all men". AnonMoos
Ghetto Girls of Gor (the intentionally lost scrolls) is listed under parody/humor. Maybe I just haven't encountered enough Gor stuff, but I can't see the parody/humor in it; to me it reads as a straight piece of fan-fiction involving the basic universe. Perhaps someone could leave a note here explaining why it's parody/humor?? 156.34.221.174 18:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, Gay, Bejeweled, Nazi Bikers of Gor doesn't work for me. Can anyone access the link, or should it be removed as dead? 156.34.221.174 18:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone's changed 'British professor Tarl Cabot' to 'New England professor Tarl Cabot.' He's British, but taught for one term in a New England college; this seems tricky to explain well. I'm thinking of just calling him British, since his teaching carreer was short and of little consequence. Comments? Wyvern 20:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
On the matter of Tarl Cabot's surname might it have been chosen by John Norman as a nod to Ralph Milne Farley's 'Myles Cabot' character? Apparently Farley was a friend of Edgar Rice Borroughs and was writing similar interplanetary swordsman type stuff. I must confess I've not (yet) read any of this Ralph Milne Farley's books though. Wageslave61 21:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I just edited out the bit at the top of the page where someone edited in, " The Counter-Earth(this phrase has never been mentioned in any of the Gor books.)]]" (Good grief.) I am holding in my hand a copy of Captive of Gor, 1972, ISBN 345029941095, and I QUOTE from the cover: "VOLUME VII IN THE CHRONICLES OF COUNTER-EARTH" Between the title, and the author's name. Good enough citation??? Evening Scribe 08:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a version of the flag flown by the ships of Bosk of Port Kar, and will probably be adding it to the page in a day or two: -- AnonMoos 09:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This is one visual interpretation of the "moons and collar" brand of the Priest-kings, as described in Gor book 13 (i.e. the three moons of Gor ascending diagonally above a closed collar). This seems to be the closest thing to a general overall Gor emblem which is included in the Gor books (unless you count the golden circle of the caste of the initiates), and so might be useful for the Gor article in that respect (though according to Norman, the moons and collar is actually only rather rarely encountered on Gor itself...).
AnonMoos (
talk)
15:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Made a diagram of the Gor as the "counter-earth" according to the descriptions in the books, and will be adding to the article when I figure out the best way to do so... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Image:Hunters of gor.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The simplified map shows the Sardar Mountains as being north of the Vosk. They are actually south and somewhat inland of the coastal city of Brundisium - approximately above the "Civ" in "Civilised" on the map. There was some ambiguity in the early books as to the exact location of the Sardar but the descriptions of Tarl's travels in Players of Gor make it clear this is where they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.165.2 ( talk) 12:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Somehow, this article seems to go out of its way to avoid mentioning the main point of these books, and the reason they are (in)famous among fantasy fiction. From an article by Dave Langford:
Our article, by contrast, vaguely describes the setting of the novels, their plotlines and their historical influences; but nowhere mentions that they're about a misogynistic society where women are enslaved by men, or that they're basically one long BDSM fantasy. Surely that's the only reason why anyone reads them, not for the 'intricately detailed' flora and fauna? Would it be too much to put the above one-line description from the Encyclopedia of Fantasy into the lead of this article? Robofish ( talk) 23:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Belated additional comment: During the last two years or so, the original Gor paperbacks have begun to trickle back into used bookstores near where I live (after a roughly ten-year period when they were very rarely available), and it seems that the ones which now least frequently show up are books 15, 16, and 17, relevant to my comments above... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:14, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
As I read through Joel Rosenberg's the Guardians of the Flame, I come to notice more and more parallels to Norman's Gor-series; much so that I would call it an antithesis to Gor. This begins with the slaves being "collared" and continues on the prename of the protagonist, Karl Cullinane. Is anything published to that respect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.204.99.241 ( talk) 21:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the current descriptions attached to two sites in the External Links section.
This is my rationale for updating these descriptions. — HipLibrarianship talk 07:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
This statement -
The planet Gor has lower gravity than Earth's (which allows for the existence of large flying creatures
My understanding of physics is maybe not as good as some people here, but I think lower gravity means lower air density and makes it harder to fly, so the creatures would need to have wide wing spans, but smaller bodies.
Can someone who understands this better speak to this subject? Jokem ( talk) 18:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I have come back to this after a few years. It looks like the people here are contradicting each other. I claim that higher gravity means greater air density. I think that is consistent with the laws of physics. The only exception I can think of is the case where the atmosphere itself is made up of lighter or heavier components. Jokem ( talk) 09:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In the case of Gor, it has a breathable atmosphere, not at all like the atmosphere of Venus. Jokem ( talk) 06:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of this? An IndieGogo campaign with a $5000 goal raised #5,505. I'm a bit unclear on its dates. It says it closed 1 October 2014 but when I check the earliest archive, from 15 October 2014 it says it closed 30 September 2014. I know it's just 1 day's difference but it seems odd. The archive says it started August 21 but the current version doesn't state when it started.
It is supposed to be done by James 'Grim' Desborough from Andover of Postmortem Studios with art by Michael Manning. It is apparently being developed in association with ORIM.
There is supposed to be 2 books:
According to a May 2015 update it was supposed to be done by August 2015, the last word I can find is January 2016 where they are still previewing art so it wasn't done by then.
I can't figure out if this is an officially licensed product or not. Does anyone know if John Norman approved it or not? Ranze ( talk) 20:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
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The book list is said to have books with another protagonist than Tarl Cabot in italic, however, all books are listed in italic.
I don't know off the top of my head which books are with another protagonist, so I can't fix it, but it'd be great if someone with that knowledge did.
Why does the thing in the upper right corner have a list of words? Tarnsman, etc. Isn't there supposed to be some sort of header, like "Concepts" or "Known For"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.198.87.192 ( talk) 02:20, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
The January proposal to merge Kajira to here seems very reasonable; not a concept with notability outside of the world of Gor, and many of the critisms of the series focus on Kajira (so, best discussed here). Klbrain ( talk) 09:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Sa'fora and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 15#Sa'fora until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 08:17, 15 September 2022 (UTC)