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Crum375 don't allow these factual issues to be included in this article:
Unusual flight level from Brasilia to Manaus
Flight Level article explains standards of airspace. These rules are not "laws" to be followed, but just how airspace is organized. For instance, it's not prohibited to flight heading northwest in an even level when aircraft was cleared by Air Traffic Control. NTSB says that "The implication that a crew should somehow observe hemispherical altitudes while being positively controlled by an ATC facility is incorrect. Informal use of the term 'wrong way' by pilots and controllers is merely a shorthand way of acknowledging that an assigned or requested altitude is not the one normally used for that direction of flight". In other words, it is not "wrong" to fly FL370 from Brasilia to Manaus, it is just "unusual". But NTSB recognizes that "For about 1 hour the significance of the long time period spent at a nonstandard cruise altitude for the flight direction by N600XL was not recognized".
Why ATC didn't request Legacy to descend when passed over Brasilia
Secondary surveillance radar article explains how Air Traffic Control obtains the altitude of an aircraft. Secondary radar relies on Transponder signal. When transponder fails, ATC estimates aircraft altitude using primary radar readout, or consult their registers of flight progress. The Embraer fight foresaw a descent from FL370 to FL360. When Embraer passed over Brasilia, radar screen started signaling to controller to amend the clearance to aircraft change level, but at these moments controller was not paying attention to Embraer flight because there wasn't traffic in its route, and he was dealing with other aircrafts. A few minutes after the aircraft passed over Brasilia, its transponder stopped transmitting. According to NTSB, without transponder signal, current altitude of aircraft started varying because it was primary radar readout. This confounded the controller; he wrongly assumed that aircraft was flying FL360, although Embraer's crew had never received any instruction to change levels.
Why crew didn't note that transponder was in standby mode
NTSB says that it can not be determined exactly how the crew commanded the transponder to standby, but was confirmed that, at this moment, the second-in-command was making use of a notebook. CENIPA says "As observed from the transcripts of the CVR, during this period of time, when the recordings indicate the use of the notebook, the crew focused on the calculation of the performance, without any conversation or comments that might suggest that the pilot-in-command was checking the information of the flight instruments at intervals". The CVR recording indicated that the laptop was only put away at 16:13, 11 minutes after transponder being turned to standby. In the period recorded, it meant at least 40 minutes of use, without considering that it may have been used in the 42 minutes of flight prior to the beginning of the recording. At 16:55, 1 minute before collision, the pilot-in-command came back to the cockpit after 16 minutes of he being out of cockpit, and took over the command, saying: “Sorry”, apparently apologizing for being away so long. CENIPA says that the pilot-in-command would have the opportunity to make a verification of the instruments as prescribed and expected from a captain, after coming back to the cockpit. Either this action was not taken, or he did not notice that the Transponder was not transmitting and, thus, the TCAS was not available.
All these factual information may be verified in Accident Final Report
Sdruvss ( talk) 22:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
It's hardly synth to select all the items from the CENIPA report that are reasonably pertinent to whatever the NTSB concluded was the probable cause. Whether or not it advances a position depends on what CENIPA said in those relevant points. But none of that makes it reasonable to label either report as primary when they are fundamentally analytical in nature, and certainly it is no BLP violation to quote that such-and-such an official report on the public record said "whatever". LeadSongDog come howl 22:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps I missed the part where the investigators were involved in the accident. Can you point to that? Otherwise, WP:PSTS is clear. In order to be of any value, investigators must, and normally do, remain independent of the events they investigate to preserve their objectivity. They produce reports which are secondary sources. LeadSongDog come howl 05:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
LSD, Crum is threating me using WP policies to block me. If you support my reasoning he will begin threating you too. He is going to make people think you are my sockpuppet. It's impossible to confront him without been hurt. Anyone can see that his interpretation of primary source and secondary source is biased. And remember that the "huge" debate here is just to improve the redaction he gave to some extracts of the article; just minor improvements. He says I want to compare reports or that I am interpreting them, what is totally false. He refuses even which I've written in "My contributions".
Sdruvss (
talk)
15:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I wish we not lose the focus of the debate. My claim is not a primary or secondary source issue. There are several sources to be verified and they just describe the accident:
Sdruvss ( talk) 19:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: I confirm all I wrote. "Now every one who, in the domain of ideas, brings his stone by pointing out an abuse, or setting a mark on some evil that it may be removed--every such man is stigmatized as immoral" (Balzac). XX Sdruvss 15:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Dear Crum, Just a few of them:
Regards. Sdruvss ( talk) 00:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear Crum, I've made the search you ask me to in the three most reliable Brazilian newspapers during final report disclosure: Estado de São Paulo, Folha de São Paulo and Globo. There are more, but they are recurring. Although NTSB report is an annex to CENIPA reports, and even there is a link to download the report (with annex), no one of these news have any mention to NTSB disagreement. It is hard to find "disagreements" as no one of these sources found them. But all of then summarize accident causes. I would not like to use them because there are a lot of mistakes, as other magazines and newspapers that are your sources. I consider these sources unreliable tertiary sources to describe the accident, as you know. But if you say that we should use them... I guess you consider all of them "reliable", because you do a lot of selectively quoting of them. I apologyse for my poor translantion, but I am sure you can do it better.
Estado, in Relatório do Cenipa aponta erros de pilotos e militares, says that "Report does not input blame, but points to crew carelessness as a factor that contributed to the accident". And adds "[...] among the factors that contributed to the disaster, the inattention of the American Legacy's pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino, their ignorance of the flight plan, and mistakes of air traffic controllers". It adds: "[...] During the investigation, it was found that the behavior of inattentive crew contributed to the disaster. Lepore and Paladino were almost an hour without realizing that the transponder was turned off". About the radar coverage, it is said: "The Air Force noted that all equipment and radars that cover the path worked perfectly. The data recorded in the Cindacta [ATC] showed that all the planes that traveled that area could be seen in radar screen. [...] There were no design or integration errors in communications equipment, transponder and TCAS (collision avoidance) of the Legacy".
In Estado Aeronáutica culpa pilotos e controladores por acidente da Gol we read "Brazilian Air Force (FAB) blamed on Wednesday the two American pilots of an Embraer Legacy, air traffic controllers and communication failures for the accident of the Gol Boeing that made the 1907 flight [...]. The transponder was inadvertently placed in the standby position, [...] There is nothing to prove the intention to do so. [...] For Cenipa, the Legacy pilots have not prepared properly for the flight, had no experience to fly in Brazil and had never flown together".
Estado FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle starts stating "Americans were confused by fuel panel and transponder. The inadvertent shutdown of the transponder (anti-collision equipment), by one of the pilots of the Legacy, was a major cause of the accident with the Gol Boeing. [...] When they tried to check the fuel in the plane, American pilots were confused and turned off the transponder, putting it in standby mode. [...] The two procedures are performed on the same equipment on board. Distracted in making calculations for landing on a runway shorter than expected to find in Manaus, and no familiarity with the aircraft, the pilots did not realize, for 59 minutes, the warning signal that the transponder was not working. The Air Force's investigators concluded that pilots turned off the transponder inadvertently during familiarization or operation of the RMU, which is the radio management unit. In the process of completion, the Cenipa ruled out several hypotheses. One is that there was no intention to turn it off because nobody gives up deliberately an anti-collision equipment, for security reasons and if this had been done, the pilots would request the control to change altitude and increase the distance vertical in relation to other aircraft. Without citing names, the report notes that those who put the equipment on stand-by was Joe Lepore, the pilot who was sitting in the left of the aircraft, after leaving the equipment in standby, after having pressed the transponder twice in less than 20 seconds when activated the on-screen display, without being aware of this action, leaving it without transmitting signal for 59 minutes. The military stressed that the Legacy pilots "were in a hurry" to take off because they were pressured by passengers, had a flight plan inadequate - prepared by an employee of Embraer [this is wrong, it is not what is said in report], the aircraft manufacturer - and had low awareness about the situation flight, as did the traditional briefing prior to takeoff, it regarded it as "routine". It also became clear that they did not dominate the technology and the two Legacy pilots did not know and had never worked together, which led to the decision-making alone or in moments of flight". But more then pointing crew failures, this article summarizes clearly the accident report:
CAUSES
Estado, in Pilotos desligaram transponder inadvertidamente, diz Cenipa, says " One of the problems identified was that the pilots had no knowledge of the equipment nor the flight plan. The Cenipa requested FAA - which regulates civil aviation in the United States - to guide the pilots flying out of the country on the international rules".
Folha, one of the most reliable newspaper in Brazil, have the same point of view in Cenipa apresenta relatório final do acidente aéreo da Gol; leia o relatório: "[...] the final report points out that the Legacy jet's transponder - which had a mid-ari collision with the Gol Boeing - was handled incorrectly by the pilots and entered into standby inadvertently. However, on Wednesday, Cenipa Brigadier Jorge Kersul, said the pilots of the Legacy should have turned off the transponder without intention". Folha, in Relatório sobre acidente da Gol aponta erros dos controladores e pilotos do Legacy, says about the pilots: "CENIPA report points out several Legacy's pilots errors, among them unsuitable flight planning, hurry to take off, lack of experience of pilots with the aircraft and insufficient preparation for the flight".
Globo, in Relatório aponta erro de operação em acidente de avião da Gol, says "An error in equipment operation of the Legacy may have turned off the anti-collision system of the aircraft that crashed into the Gol Boeing. This is one of the conclusions of the final report submitted by the Air Force". And repeats all other news: "Among other factors, the Air Force also listed the lack of experience of pilots in the handling of the Legacy. The most likely hypothesis for the shutdown of the transponder, according to the Air Force, is that, during an operation to calculate aircraft performance, the pilot would have put the equipment on standby". And adds: "According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, chief of the Center for Research and Prevention of Aeronautical Accidents (CENIPA), one can not prove that this was done intentionally. We discarded the hypothesis that either the laptop or the foot of one of the pilots has pushed the button to turn off the transponder. For the transponder being turned off, one must press a button twice in a span of twenty seconds".
Globo, in Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa, sumaryzes the report as: "Air Force concluded that deficiencies in the training of Brazilian controllers and ExcelAire American Legacy's pilots were factors that contributed to the collision". They also highlight that contributed to accident the "lack of familiarity of American pilots Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino with cabin equipment".
I hope this helps writting a better, clearer, unbiased and reliable article. Regards Sdruvss ( talk) 15:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
There aren't two final reports. There is just one. CENIPA(266 pages), NTSB Appendix 1 to CENIPA final report (U.S. Summary Comments on the Draft Final Report, 4 pages) and NTSB Appendix 2 to CENIPA final report (U.S. Detailed Comments on Draft Final Report, 10 pages), which means that NTSB made comments to the CENIPA final report and not another final report. It doesn't make sense to compare a report with its comments. It is not necessary to compare a subject with the comments to the subject. I think this is why no one Brazilian "secondary source" compared them. It doesn't make sense. XX Sdruvss 15:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, Joe Sharkey is not at issue here, since we don't use him as a source for interpreting reports. As I mentioned to you elsewhere, if you can supply a new high quality secondary source to analyze the NTSB report or to contrast it with the CENIPA report, it would be most useful. The sources you do mention seem to be focused on the CENIPA report only, and we already cite several such sources in the article. To analyze and contrast the CENIPA and NTSB reports to each other, we need to rely on top level secondary sources which do this for us (such as Aviation Week or The New York Times), or else we'd be engaging in original research. Crum375 ( talk) 18:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, we should not use a "secondary sources" that makes statements about a "primary source" that is not verifiable. The sources you use say "that both flight crews acted properly". We cannot verify this statement in NTSB comments. Instead we find that they say specifically about “Planning – a contributor - We do not agree that the analysis is sufficient to support any deficiency in the conduct of the flight, which can be related to planning". NTSB has never said "that both flight crews acted properly" as Sharkey's publisher said. XX Sdruvss 19:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Crum, as I said, the sentence "The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions" is completely different from "both flight crews acted properly". NTSB recognizes that "Without question, N600XL proceeded for an inordinately long time without two-way communication", they not disagree that the crew inadvertently shutdown of the transponder; they not disagree that crew was distracted. Does anyone could agree with Sharkey's publisher that both flight crews acted properly? None of Brazilian sources has commented NTSB "disagreement". NTSB comments has 10 pages, anyone can read it in 10 minutes and prove that those Sharkey's publisher "analyses" are biased and partisan. NTSB only highlight a few issues described in details in CENIPA report, especially safety issues of ATC. Why do you insist with such intensity that CENIPA and NTSB disagree? Don't you think that there is something not explained why none of Brazilians sources say one word about NTSB comments, and only Sharkey's publisher?XX Sdruvss 20:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
You gave me a impossible mission. No one high quality reputable secondary source analyzed the NTSB comments to CENIPA report. First, it doesn't make sense to compare a comment with the subject been commented. This is nonsense. You are asking that some high quality reputable secondary source makes something that everybody knows that doesn't make sense. Only unreliable sources do that, as Sharkey's publisher. XX Sdruvss 20:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I've quoted above many Brazilian sources which summarize accident causes, from the most reliable sources one can find. They are the three most important Brazilian newspapers. Some of them even include links for downloading the CENIPA Report that includes the appendix of NTSB. No one of them has a single reference to NTSB comment. All Brazilians sources clearly don't summarize the report like Sharkey's publisher did. This article don't summarize the accident causes quoting Brazilian sources, because they don't compare the "Comments on the Draft Report" of NTSB with the "Final Report" of CENIPA as Sharkey's publisher did, affirming that the Comments are a "dissending report". I hope people who read this talk page understand what is going on here. XX Sdruvss 11:33, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
As I said many times, it is impossible to find high quality secondary sources (sic) to interpret primary sources (sic) disagreements when the primary sources (sic) don't disagree with each other. The sole high quality secondary source (sic) that argue that they strong disagree is Sharkey's publisher. XX Sdruvss 16:02, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
In the CENIPA report section, we currently use two Brazilian and one English secondary sources to interpret and summarize the CENIPA report, along with a link to the CENIPA report itself, which is primary. If you see significant new information, which is not included in the current Portuguese sources or the English one, then please specify the source(s), and the specific details which you propose to change. Bear in mind that other sources, including more English ones, may need to be added, if we get into conflicts between sources about specific details or their relative weights. Here is the current CENIPA report section:
On December 10, 2008, more than two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issued its final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations.[1] The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[45][46]
According to CENIPA, the air traffic controllers contributed to the accident by originally issuing an improper clearance to the Embraer, and not catching or correcting the mistake during the subsequent handoff to Brasilia Center or later on. CENIPA also found errors in the way the controllers handled the loss of radar and radio contact with the Embraer.[1][46]
CENIPA concluded that the Embraer pilots also contributed to the accident with, among others, their failure to recognize that their transponder was inadvertently switched off, thereby disabling the collision avoidance system on both aircraft, as well as their overall insufficient training and preparation.
Crum375 ( talk) 21:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Final report topic is biased and full of mistakes. The text bellow is better and correct, according to the cited sources:
Final report
On December 10, 2008,more than[why?] two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issueditsthe Final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations.[1] The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[45][46] According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, CENIPA’s chief, "An accident does not occur by just one factor. They are several factors combined" [Globo reference]. The causes of the accident listed by CENIPA are [Estado, Folha, Globo references]:
- 1. Failure to carry out an appropriate flight planning by Legacy's pilots.
- 2. Hurry to take off and pressure of the passengers of the Legacy, preventing sufficient knowledge of the flight plan for pilots.
- 3. Inadvertent shutdown of the transponder, possibly by the limited experience of the Legacy's pilots.
- 4. Lack of communication between pilots and controllers.
- 5. Lack of integration between the Legacy pilots and little experience in piloting this type of aircraft.
- 6. The air traffic control in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brasilia and Manaus, although providing surveillance radar, did not correct the flight level of the Legacy or conducted procedures for certification of altitude when they started not to receive information from the transponder.
- 7. The controllers did not transfer correctly traffic from Brasilia to Manaus.
- 8. Flight controllers did not provide the predicted frequency for the Legacy to communicate adequately in the Amazon region.
- 9. The lack of involvement of supervisors of controllers, letting that decisions and actions over the Legacy flight were taken individually, without monitoring, advice and guidance provided for the air traffic control.
U.S. NTSB published two documents, "Comments on the Draft Final Report of the Aircraft Accident" (Summary and Detailed) in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 [cite annex 13], which were appended to CENIPA Final Report (Apendix 1 and 2), with the following Probable Cause statement: "The evidence collected during this investigation strongly supports the conclusion that this accident was caused by N600XL and GLO1907 following ATC clearances which directed them to operate in opposite directions on the same airway at the same altitude resulting in a midair collision. The loss of effective air traffic control was not the result of a single error, but of a combination of numerous individual and institutional ATC factors, which reflected systemic shortcomings in emphasis on positive air traffic control concepts" [cite CENIPA final report].
The NTSB further added the following contributing factors: "Contributing to this accident was the undetected loss of functionality of the airborne collision avoidance system technology as a result of the inadvertent inactivation of the transponder on board N600XL. Further contributing to the accident was inadequate communication between ATC and the N600XL flight crew" [cite CENIPA final report].
According to some American magazines and newspapers, CENIPA and NTSB arrived at disagreeing interpretations and conclusions, although this was not mentioned in any mainstream Brazilian source. They say that CENIPA report concludes the accident was caused by mistakes made both by air traffic controllers and by the Embraer pilots, whereas the NTSB focuses on the controllers and the ATC system, concluding thatboth flight crews acted properly but were placed on a collision course by the air traffic controllers.[2][6][7][48][49][50][51][none of the references say that "crew acted properly", instead all of them repeat NTSB comment (not conclusion) that:] the crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions, and was not in violation of any regulations [2][6][7][48][49][50][51].
According to [Jim Swickard of..., it is a signed article] Aviation Week, "the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) strongly disagreed with the Brazilian conclusions regarding the Legacy pilots' actions as a causal factor, noting, 'The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions,' as did the GOL airlines crew."[6] Aviation Week adds that "the Brazilian military operates that country's air traffic control system, conducted the investigation and authored the report."[not necessary, it is said several times in the text, and written here induces to conspiracy theory. This paragraph repeats the arguments of above paragraph ]
Is there something above that is not verifiable? I believe not. (I apologyse by my poor translantion, but I'm sure Crum can improve it) XX Sdruvss 01:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
AS CAUSAS
- 1. Não realização de um adequado planejamento de vôo pelos pilotos do jato Legacy
- 2. Pressa para decolar e a pressão dos passageiros do Legacy, impossibilitando o suficiente conhecimento do plano de vôo pelos pilotos
- 3. Desligamento inadvertido do transponder, "possivelmente pela pouca experiência dos pilotos" do Legacy
- 4. Falta de comunicação entre pilotos e controladores
- 5. Falta de entrosamento entre os pilotos do Legacy e pouca experiência em pilotar esse tipo de aeronave
- 6. O controle de tráfego aéreo de São José dos Campos, Brasília e Manaus, apesar de estar prestando serviço de vigilância radar, não corrigiu o nível de vôo do Legacy nem realizou procedimentos previstos para a certificação de altitude quando passou a não receber as informações do transponder
- 7. Os controladores não transferiram corretamente o tráfego de Brasília para Manaus
- 8. Os controladores de vôo não ofereceram a freqüência prevista para que o jato Legacy se comunicasse adequadamente na região da Amazônia
- 9. A falta de envolvimento do supervisores dos controladores de vôo permitiu que as decisões e ações relativas ao jato Legacy fossem tomadas de forma individual, sem o acompanhamento, assessoramento e orientação previstos para o controle de tráfego aéreo.
Sdruvss, the CENIPA report is a high quality primary source, and we use it extensively (28 times) in the article as a reference. But we can't pull out pieces from it, or we would violate WP:NOR, and if one single secondary publication does the pulling, in conflict with others, it would violate WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. In this case, the list of "causas" which you posted above, to the best of my knowledge, is not quoted directly from the report, but has been drawn up by one reporter in one Brazilian news publication. The CENIPA report has 266 pages, and to summarize those pages we need either a self-contained 'probable cause' statement, which CENIPA did not provide, or a consensus among all top level sources. In addition, the NTSB report, which was included with the CENIPA report, did have a probable cause statement, which was in conflict with CENIPA's conclusions (according to high quality secondary sources). So we need to also present NTSB's conclusions, along with their comparison and contrast to the CENIPA report, to show how they conflict. The current article's "Final reports" section contains three subsections, one for each topic (CENIPA, NTSB and Comparison). I suggest again, that you address each subsection individually, starting with the first one, and following our NPOV rules. Thanks, Crum375 ( talk) 14:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Let me see if I understood: Are you saying that we need better sources than ALL Brazilian newspapers to summarize 10 pages of CENIPA conclusions that where presented in a press conference, which was live transmitted on TV, to write 9 causes of the accident in a Wikipedia article? Are you saying that "some reporter" of ALL Brazilians newspaper are not able to write what was told in the press conference to announce CENIPA conclusions? Are you saying that the sole high quality mainstream source telling us that NTSB and CENIPA reports are at odds with each other (sic) is Sharkey's publisher? Are you saying that WP can't publish CENIPA conclusions because no one summarized it the way you required it to be done and the way Sharkey's publisher did? Are you saying that all Brazilians that don't read your Wikipedia article and Sharkey's publisher articles live in ignorance about this accident causes? We, Brazilians, don't know accident causes? I hope you and WP understand the consequences of these statements. XX Sdruvss 22:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Crum, all Brazilians sources during disclosure of CENIPA Final Report (there is only one final report) including NTSB Comments Appendix, didn't say that NTSB disagrees from the causes of accident pointed by CENIPA. This is a strong indication that the sole article of Sharkey's publisher that say this is not reliable. You wrongly cite Sharkey's publisher. You say "crew acted properly" citing AW and NYT. The AW article you cite to justify this statement is signed by Jim Swickard who recently was invited by Embraer to visit its plant in Brazil. He publishes his articles in the same magazine of Sharkey. Jim Swickard citing NTSB says "The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions". NYT says: "The crew of the business jet was not in violation of any regulations”. Thus, you make clearly wrong citations and you should correct it without questioning. But if these sources are right saying CENIPA and NTSB disagree, we would find in CENIPA report or in the news (anyone) that crew didn't fly the cleared route, not complying with ATC instructions, and in violation of regulations. We are not able to find this statement in CENIPA report as one of the causes of accident. Does any of those 9 causes listed above said that crew disobey clearance? Does any of those 9 causes listed above said that crew violate any regulations? No, they don't. So, clearly AW and NYT are wrong, and that is why no one of Brazilian newspapers made the same error as Sharkey's publisher. Do you think that all Brazilians newspapers are wrong and Sharkey's publishers are right? OK, I admit that, but the minimum we should do is to report both summaries and let readers judge by themselves. We should not censor all Brazilians newspaper because one Sharkey's publisher said something that no one else said. I assume your good faith, but you are censoring accident causes according to CENIPA. XX Sdruvss 00:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. We can't just pull out a bunch of quotes from a primary source in a contentious case, unless there is no disagreement among all secondary sources. In this situation, we have two high quality primary sources, the CENIPA and NTSB reports, which have been reported to be in conflict between each other according to high quality secondary sources. Therefore, if we were to just randomly or selectively pull quotes from the primary sources (which are hundreds of pages long), we'd be violating WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, etc. We must let high quality secondary sources do that analysis, summary and comparison between the conflicting sources for us, which is what the current article does. If you can point us to another high level secondary source which compares these primary sources and sheds a different light on the matter, it would be most helpful. Crum375 ( talk) 13:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is being "obstructed". We have two basic reports written about this accident, by two different investigative agencies, representing two different governments. Although they worked collaboratively during the investigation, they ended up with two separate reports. The NTSB report, which was published separately by the U.S. government, is also included as "Appendix 1" which was appended to the CENIPA report written by the Brazilian Air Force. We have high quality mainstream secondary sources, The New York Times and Aviation Week, which tell us that the two reports are "dissenting" and "sparring" with each other, i.e. in significant conflict. Therefore, we must use high level secondary sources to interpret, analyze, compare and contrast these two reports and their conflicting results. This is what the article currently does. If you have more high quality secondary sources which interpret the two reports and help us compare them, please provide them. Crum375 ( talk) 14:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, we have two basic high quality primary sources in this case, NTSB and CENIPA reports. They were written by two professional investigative agencies, representing the U.S. and Brazilian governments, respectively. The NTSB report is included in its entirety as "Appendix 1" and appended to the CENIPA report. These two reports have been characterized as being "sparring" and "dissenting" by two high quality secondary sources: The New York Times and Aviation Week. Therefore, we must present an analysis, comparison and contrast of these conflicting primary sources by high quality secondary sources. That you, Sdruvss, believe that The New York Times and Aviation Week are tainted, corrupt, unreliable or unacceptable and therefore should be ignored, is immaterial. Wikipedia is based on high quality secondary sources interpreting and summarizing primary ones, and this article conforms to that standard. Crum375 ( talk) 15:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
As can be verified above, we do not analyze "primary sources" (sic) ourselves. The summary above is a literal translation from Estado, one of the most important Brazilian newspapers, besides that there is a lot more. As can been verified above there is only one Final Report, but Sharkey's publisher didn't like it. As can be seen bellow I don't want to obstruct Sharkey's publisher, but only include what ALL Brazilian newspapers said of accident causes, and all Brazilians knows, but who reads only WP don't know. I just want to share what is been hiding from WP readers. XX Sdruvss 18:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Joaquim Nabuco lived in many countries, and among others was Brazilian ambassador to the United States. But he died in 1910, so his "evidence" of poor quality journalism is based on mostly 19th century newspapers, regardless of country. I think (hope) the press has improved considerably since then. Crum375 ( talk) 20:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
In that case, you should be willing to explain anything you have posted here, so we can understand you. Crum375 ( talk) 00:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
If you are trying to make a point, you need to explain yourself with your own words, without replying by quoting others. Otherwise, people will not take you seriously. Crum375 ( talk) 02:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
This talk page seems more active now than at the time of the accident. I figured, since I was also a contributor to this article, that I'd try to find a way to address some of Sdruvss' concerns (some of which I somewhat agree with). If there's any doubt as to the credibility of Mr. Pedicini or his connection to Joe Sharkey, whatever that may be, why don't we simply switch the source? Here's a similar story from Flight Global that references the same points in the NTSB report as the Aviation Week article did: NTSB: Loss of 'effective air traffic control' at root of 2006 Legacy 600, Gol 737 collision At the same time, since both reports (CENIPA and NTSB) are given equal weight everywhere else in the article, we could perhaps include a quote in the same format, from this article at Folha Online, one of Brazil's most reputable news sources. That way the equal weight is kept and there should be no debating the credibility of the source for the NTSB quote. XXX antiuser 16:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I know that it is against WP policies to talk of this subject here, but I wish you all, Crum, LSD, WhisperToMe and AntiUser a Merry Christmas!!! Sdruvss ( talk) 14:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
To reach a compromise, I suggest this Final Report section:
Final report
On December 10, 2008, more than two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issued the Final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[1] According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, CENIPA’s chief, "An accident does not occur by just one factor. They are several factors combined" [reference: Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa]. The causes of the accident listed by CENIPA are:
- 1. Failure to carry out an appropriate flight planning by Legacy's pilots.
- 2. Hurry to take off and pressure of the passengers of the Legacy, preventing sufficient knowledge of the flight plan for pilots.
- 3. Inadvertent shutdown of the transponder, possibly by the limited experience of the Legacy's pilots.
- 4. Lack of communication between pilots and controllers.
- 5. Lack of integration between the Legacy pilots and little experience in piloting this type of aircraft.
- 6. The air traffic control in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brasilia and Manaus, although providing surveillance radar, did not correct the flight level of the Legacy or conducted procedures for certification of altitude when they started not to receive information from the transponder.
- 7. The controllers did not transfer correctly traffic from Brasilia to Manaus.
- 8. Flight controllers did not provide the predicted frequency for the Legacy to communicate adequately in the Amazon region.
- 9. The lack of involvement of supervisors of controllers, letting that decisions and actions over the Legacy flight were taken individually, without monitoring, advice and guidance provided for the air traffic control. [reference: FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle
U.S. NTSB published two documents, "Comments on the Draft Final Report of the Aircraft Accident" (Summary and Detailed) in accordance with ICAO Annex 13, which were appended to CENIPA Final Report (Apendix 1 and 2), containing the following Probable Cause statement: "The evidence collected during this investigation strongly supports the conclusion that this accident was caused by N600XL and GLO1907 following ATC clearances which directed them to operate in opposite directions on the same airway at the same altitude resulting in a midair collision. The loss of effective air traffic control was not the result of a single error, but of a combination of numerous individual and institutional ATC factors, which reflected systemic shortcomings in emphasis on positive air traffic control concepts"[1].
The NTSB further added the following contributing factors: "Contributing to this accident was the undetected loss of functionality of the airborne collision avoidance system technology as a result of the inadvertent inactivation of the transponder on board N600XL. Further contributing to the accident was inadequate communication between ATC and the N600XL flight crew" [1].
According to some sources, CENIPA and NTSB arrived at disagreeing interpretations and conclusions. They say that CENIPA report concludes the accident was caused by mistakes made both by air traffic controllers and by the Embraer pilots, whereas the NTSB focuses on the controllers and the ATC system, concluding that the crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions, and was not in violation of any regulations [1][6][7][48][49][50][51].
XX Sdruvss 16:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The text above meets all your requirements, but even so, we stay in this endless talking. The entire text comes from reliable "secondary sources" (sic). I'm still assuming your good faith. XX Sdruvss 18:49, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't want to keep this endless talk; You are repeating arguments. I want that you say what is wrong with my compromise suggestion. Estado is not a reliable source? AW and NYT are cited (correctly cited). Is it all wrong? I'm still assuming your good faith. XX Sdruvss 19:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
(following the debate...)
This is a strategy to leave us in a deadlock? Sharkey's publisher said CENIPA and NTSB disagree in one solitary article. No other source said they agree; you are right. Thus, we are obstructed when we try to include in the WP article Estado, Folha and Globo articles (all of them have even huge sections just to join all accident articles) to summarize the accident causes because none of them said that CENIPA and NTSB agree. We are obstructed to include the nine causes pointed by ALL Brazilian newspapers. Clever strategy, but I assume your good faith. XX Sdruvss 22:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Eureka! In scientific methodology, as you should know, a null hypothesis is a hypothesis that might be falsified on the basis of observed data. The null hypothesis typically proposes a general or default position, such as that there is no relationship between two variables. This description is assumed to be valid unless the actual behavior of the data contradicts this assumption. Thus, the null hypothesis is contrasted against another or alternative hypothesis. If we test and reject our null hypothesis we should accept the alternative hypothesis. In this episode, we want to test if Estado, Folha, and Globo (EFG) argue that CENIPA and NTSB disagree with other. The null hypothesis (H0) is that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB disagree. The alternative hypothesis (H1) is that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB agree. If EFG argue that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, it would be expected to be observed in at last one of their articles that they would had said that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, but we cannot find any EFG article where they say that CENIPA and NTSB disagree. Thus we reject the null hypothesis (H0) that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, and have to accept the alternative hypothesis (H1) that EFG believes that CENIPA and NTSB agree. So we can scientifically assure that Estado, Folha, and Globo strongly believe that CENIPA and NTSB agree. XX Sdruvss 23:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
That is exactly what I said. If all sources don't say they disagree (H0 - null hypothesis), all sources assume they agree or it is a not relevant issue (H1 - alternative hypothesis) as Sharkey's publishers believe it is. We should block all sources because they don't say what we would like they had said? But I assume your good faith. XX Sdruvss 00:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
As you wish:
Relatório do Cenipa aponta erros de pilotos e militares
Aeronáutica culpa pilotos e controladores por acidente da Gol
FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle (In my humble opinion, this is the best)
Pilotos desligaram transponder inadvertidamente, diz Cenipa
Cenipa apresenta relatório final do acidente aéreo da Gol; leia o relatório
Relatório sobre acidente da Gol aponta erros dos controladores e pilotos do Legacy
Relatório aponta erro de operação em acidente de avião da Gol
Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa
XX
Sdruvss
00:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
If quoting is not the issue, can we quote them in Final Report? Yes or No? XX Sdruvss 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
"No, not OK" = It is not ok to quote any Brazilian newspapers informing CENIPA conclusions of the accident to 200 millions of Brazilians. "We have two highly reliable secondary sources, The New York Times" = Joe Sharkey's publisher, "and Aviation Week" = Joe Sharkey's publisher, "telling us the NTSB and CENIPA reports" = NTSB "report" (sic) title: "U.S. Comments on Draft Final Report", 10 pages, "which are primary sources, are in conflict with each other, so we need to present them as such" = obstructing all other sources that consider NTSB comments not relevant. "In other words, the logical presentation is CENIPA, NTSB and then the analysis of their conflicting conclusions" = the way Crum and the "consensus" here allow to be, including wrong citations of Sharkey's publisher (Sharkey's publisher didn't say that "crew acted properly"). This WP article has became a not neutral unreliable source of information of the accident. I suggest to those who want to know accident causes and don't speak Portuguese, use Google translation and access directly reliable sources listed above. XX Sdruvss 12:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I recommend for those who want to know accident causes and don't speak Portuguese, use Google translation and access directly Brazilian news that summarize final reports. XX Sdruvss 14:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: no one of these sources said "the crew acted properly" as written in WP article. XX Sdruvss 01:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
WP says that Reliable source is, and the basis of its reliability, depends on the context. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made. Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process. Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion if they lack neutral corroboration. Widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, while widespread doubts about reliability weigh against it. No other Brazilian newspaper, which are very close to the accident, use the expression "dissenting report" or highlight the "conflict". WP adds: The goal is to reflect established views of sources as far as we can determine them. Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact without attribution. XX Sdruvss 12:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Crum375 don't allow these factual issues to be included in this article:
Unusual flight level from Brasilia to Manaus
Flight Level article explains standards of airspace. These rules are not "laws" to be followed, but just how airspace is organized. For instance, it's not prohibited to flight heading northwest in an even level when aircraft was cleared by Air Traffic Control. NTSB says that "The implication that a crew should somehow observe hemispherical altitudes while being positively controlled by an ATC facility is incorrect. Informal use of the term 'wrong way' by pilots and controllers is merely a shorthand way of acknowledging that an assigned or requested altitude is not the one normally used for that direction of flight". In other words, it is not "wrong" to fly FL370 from Brasilia to Manaus, it is just "unusual". But NTSB recognizes that "For about 1 hour the significance of the long time period spent at a nonstandard cruise altitude for the flight direction by N600XL was not recognized".
Why ATC didn't request Legacy to descend when passed over Brasilia
Secondary surveillance radar article explains how Air Traffic Control obtains the altitude of an aircraft. Secondary radar relies on Transponder signal. When transponder fails, ATC estimates aircraft altitude using primary radar readout, or consult their registers of flight progress. The Embraer fight foresaw a descent from FL370 to FL360. When Embraer passed over Brasilia, radar screen started signaling to controller to amend the clearance to aircraft change level, but at these moments controller was not paying attention to Embraer flight because there wasn't traffic in its route, and he was dealing with other aircrafts. A few minutes after the aircraft passed over Brasilia, its transponder stopped transmitting. According to NTSB, without transponder signal, current altitude of aircraft started varying because it was primary radar readout. This confounded the controller; he wrongly assumed that aircraft was flying FL360, although Embraer's crew had never received any instruction to change levels.
Why crew didn't note that transponder was in standby mode
NTSB says that it can not be determined exactly how the crew commanded the transponder to standby, but was confirmed that, at this moment, the second-in-command was making use of a notebook. CENIPA says "As observed from the transcripts of the CVR, during this period of time, when the recordings indicate the use of the notebook, the crew focused on the calculation of the performance, without any conversation or comments that might suggest that the pilot-in-command was checking the information of the flight instruments at intervals". The CVR recording indicated that the laptop was only put away at 16:13, 11 minutes after transponder being turned to standby. In the period recorded, it meant at least 40 minutes of use, without considering that it may have been used in the 42 minutes of flight prior to the beginning of the recording. At 16:55, 1 minute before collision, the pilot-in-command came back to the cockpit after 16 minutes of he being out of cockpit, and took over the command, saying: “Sorry”, apparently apologizing for being away so long. CENIPA says that the pilot-in-command would have the opportunity to make a verification of the instruments as prescribed and expected from a captain, after coming back to the cockpit. Either this action was not taken, or he did not notice that the Transponder was not transmitting and, thus, the TCAS was not available.
All these factual information may be verified in Accident Final Report
Sdruvss ( talk) 22:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
It's hardly synth to select all the items from the CENIPA report that are reasonably pertinent to whatever the NTSB concluded was the probable cause. Whether or not it advances a position depends on what CENIPA said in those relevant points. But none of that makes it reasonable to label either report as primary when they are fundamentally analytical in nature, and certainly it is no BLP violation to quote that such-and-such an official report on the public record said "whatever". LeadSongDog come howl 22:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps I missed the part where the investigators were involved in the accident. Can you point to that? Otherwise, WP:PSTS is clear. In order to be of any value, investigators must, and normally do, remain independent of the events they investigate to preserve their objectivity. They produce reports which are secondary sources. LeadSongDog come howl 05:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
LSD, Crum is threating me using WP policies to block me. If you support my reasoning he will begin threating you too. He is going to make people think you are my sockpuppet. It's impossible to confront him without been hurt. Anyone can see that his interpretation of primary source and secondary source is biased. And remember that the "huge" debate here is just to improve the redaction he gave to some extracts of the article; just minor improvements. He says I want to compare reports or that I am interpreting them, what is totally false. He refuses even which I've written in "My contributions".
Sdruvss (
talk)
15:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I wish we not lose the focus of the debate. My claim is not a primary or secondary source issue. There are several sources to be verified and they just describe the accident:
Sdruvss ( talk) 19:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: I confirm all I wrote. "Now every one who, in the domain of ideas, brings his stone by pointing out an abuse, or setting a mark on some evil that it may be removed--every such man is stigmatized as immoral" (Balzac). XX Sdruvss 15:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Dear Crum, Just a few of them:
Regards. Sdruvss ( talk) 00:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear Crum, I've made the search you ask me to in the three most reliable Brazilian newspapers during final report disclosure: Estado de São Paulo, Folha de São Paulo and Globo. There are more, but they are recurring. Although NTSB report is an annex to CENIPA reports, and even there is a link to download the report (with annex), no one of these news have any mention to NTSB disagreement. It is hard to find "disagreements" as no one of these sources found them. But all of then summarize accident causes. I would not like to use them because there are a lot of mistakes, as other magazines and newspapers that are your sources. I consider these sources unreliable tertiary sources to describe the accident, as you know. But if you say that we should use them... I guess you consider all of them "reliable", because you do a lot of selectively quoting of them. I apologyse for my poor translantion, but I am sure you can do it better.
Estado, in Relatório do Cenipa aponta erros de pilotos e militares, says that "Report does not input blame, but points to crew carelessness as a factor that contributed to the accident". And adds "[...] among the factors that contributed to the disaster, the inattention of the American Legacy's pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino, their ignorance of the flight plan, and mistakes of air traffic controllers". It adds: "[...] During the investigation, it was found that the behavior of inattentive crew contributed to the disaster. Lepore and Paladino were almost an hour without realizing that the transponder was turned off". About the radar coverage, it is said: "The Air Force noted that all equipment and radars that cover the path worked perfectly. The data recorded in the Cindacta [ATC] showed that all the planes that traveled that area could be seen in radar screen. [...] There were no design or integration errors in communications equipment, transponder and TCAS (collision avoidance) of the Legacy".
In Estado Aeronáutica culpa pilotos e controladores por acidente da Gol we read "Brazilian Air Force (FAB) blamed on Wednesday the two American pilots of an Embraer Legacy, air traffic controllers and communication failures for the accident of the Gol Boeing that made the 1907 flight [...]. The transponder was inadvertently placed in the standby position, [...] There is nothing to prove the intention to do so. [...] For Cenipa, the Legacy pilots have not prepared properly for the flight, had no experience to fly in Brazil and had never flown together".
Estado FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle starts stating "Americans were confused by fuel panel and transponder. The inadvertent shutdown of the transponder (anti-collision equipment), by one of the pilots of the Legacy, was a major cause of the accident with the Gol Boeing. [...] When they tried to check the fuel in the plane, American pilots were confused and turned off the transponder, putting it in standby mode. [...] The two procedures are performed on the same equipment on board. Distracted in making calculations for landing on a runway shorter than expected to find in Manaus, and no familiarity with the aircraft, the pilots did not realize, for 59 minutes, the warning signal that the transponder was not working. The Air Force's investigators concluded that pilots turned off the transponder inadvertently during familiarization or operation of the RMU, which is the radio management unit. In the process of completion, the Cenipa ruled out several hypotheses. One is that there was no intention to turn it off because nobody gives up deliberately an anti-collision equipment, for security reasons and if this had been done, the pilots would request the control to change altitude and increase the distance vertical in relation to other aircraft. Without citing names, the report notes that those who put the equipment on stand-by was Joe Lepore, the pilot who was sitting in the left of the aircraft, after leaving the equipment in standby, after having pressed the transponder twice in less than 20 seconds when activated the on-screen display, without being aware of this action, leaving it without transmitting signal for 59 minutes. The military stressed that the Legacy pilots "were in a hurry" to take off because they were pressured by passengers, had a flight plan inadequate - prepared by an employee of Embraer [this is wrong, it is not what is said in report], the aircraft manufacturer - and had low awareness about the situation flight, as did the traditional briefing prior to takeoff, it regarded it as "routine". It also became clear that they did not dominate the technology and the two Legacy pilots did not know and had never worked together, which led to the decision-making alone or in moments of flight". But more then pointing crew failures, this article summarizes clearly the accident report:
CAUSES
Estado, in Pilotos desligaram transponder inadvertidamente, diz Cenipa, says " One of the problems identified was that the pilots had no knowledge of the equipment nor the flight plan. The Cenipa requested FAA - which regulates civil aviation in the United States - to guide the pilots flying out of the country on the international rules".
Folha, one of the most reliable newspaper in Brazil, have the same point of view in Cenipa apresenta relatório final do acidente aéreo da Gol; leia o relatório: "[...] the final report points out that the Legacy jet's transponder - which had a mid-ari collision with the Gol Boeing - was handled incorrectly by the pilots and entered into standby inadvertently. However, on Wednesday, Cenipa Brigadier Jorge Kersul, said the pilots of the Legacy should have turned off the transponder without intention". Folha, in Relatório sobre acidente da Gol aponta erros dos controladores e pilotos do Legacy, says about the pilots: "CENIPA report points out several Legacy's pilots errors, among them unsuitable flight planning, hurry to take off, lack of experience of pilots with the aircraft and insufficient preparation for the flight".
Globo, in Relatório aponta erro de operação em acidente de avião da Gol, says "An error in equipment operation of the Legacy may have turned off the anti-collision system of the aircraft that crashed into the Gol Boeing. This is one of the conclusions of the final report submitted by the Air Force". And repeats all other news: "Among other factors, the Air Force also listed the lack of experience of pilots in the handling of the Legacy. The most likely hypothesis for the shutdown of the transponder, according to the Air Force, is that, during an operation to calculate aircraft performance, the pilot would have put the equipment on standby". And adds: "According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, chief of the Center for Research and Prevention of Aeronautical Accidents (CENIPA), one can not prove that this was done intentionally. We discarded the hypothesis that either the laptop or the foot of one of the pilots has pushed the button to turn off the transponder. For the transponder being turned off, one must press a button twice in a span of twenty seconds".
Globo, in Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa, sumaryzes the report as: "Air Force concluded that deficiencies in the training of Brazilian controllers and ExcelAire American Legacy's pilots were factors that contributed to the collision". They also highlight that contributed to accident the "lack of familiarity of American pilots Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino with cabin equipment".
I hope this helps writting a better, clearer, unbiased and reliable article. Regards Sdruvss ( talk) 15:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
There aren't two final reports. There is just one. CENIPA(266 pages), NTSB Appendix 1 to CENIPA final report (U.S. Summary Comments on the Draft Final Report, 4 pages) and NTSB Appendix 2 to CENIPA final report (U.S. Detailed Comments on Draft Final Report, 10 pages), which means that NTSB made comments to the CENIPA final report and not another final report. It doesn't make sense to compare a report with its comments. It is not necessary to compare a subject with the comments to the subject. I think this is why no one Brazilian "secondary source" compared them. It doesn't make sense. XX Sdruvss 15:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, Joe Sharkey is not at issue here, since we don't use him as a source for interpreting reports. As I mentioned to you elsewhere, if you can supply a new high quality secondary source to analyze the NTSB report or to contrast it with the CENIPA report, it would be most useful. The sources you do mention seem to be focused on the CENIPA report only, and we already cite several such sources in the article. To analyze and contrast the CENIPA and NTSB reports to each other, we need to rely on top level secondary sources which do this for us (such as Aviation Week or The New York Times), or else we'd be engaging in original research. Crum375 ( talk) 18:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, we should not use a "secondary sources" that makes statements about a "primary source" that is not verifiable. The sources you use say "that both flight crews acted properly". We cannot verify this statement in NTSB comments. Instead we find that they say specifically about “Planning – a contributor - We do not agree that the analysis is sufficient to support any deficiency in the conduct of the flight, which can be related to planning". NTSB has never said "that both flight crews acted properly" as Sharkey's publisher said. XX Sdruvss 19:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Crum, as I said, the sentence "The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions" is completely different from "both flight crews acted properly". NTSB recognizes that "Without question, N600XL proceeded for an inordinately long time without two-way communication", they not disagree that the crew inadvertently shutdown of the transponder; they not disagree that crew was distracted. Does anyone could agree with Sharkey's publisher that both flight crews acted properly? None of Brazilian sources has commented NTSB "disagreement". NTSB comments has 10 pages, anyone can read it in 10 minutes and prove that those Sharkey's publisher "analyses" are biased and partisan. NTSB only highlight a few issues described in details in CENIPA report, especially safety issues of ATC. Why do you insist with such intensity that CENIPA and NTSB disagree? Don't you think that there is something not explained why none of Brazilians sources say one word about NTSB comments, and only Sharkey's publisher?XX Sdruvss 20:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
You gave me a impossible mission. No one high quality reputable secondary source analyzed the NTSB comments to CENIPA report. First, it doesn't make sense to compare a comment with the subject been commented. This is nonsense. You are asking that some high quality reputable secondary source makes something that everybody knows that doesn't make sense. Only unreliable sources do that, as Sharkey's publisher. XX Sdruvss 20:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I've quoted above many Brazilian sources which summarize accident causes, from the most reliable sources one can find. They are the three most important Brazilian newspapers. Some of them even include links for downloading the CENIPA Report that includes the appendix of NTSB. No one of them has a single reference to NTSB comment. All Brazilians sources clearly don't summarize the report like Sharkey's publisher did. This article don't summarize the accident causes quoting Brazilian sources, because they don't compare the "Comments on the Draft Report" of NTSB with the "Final Report" of CENIPA as Sharkey's publisher did, affirming that the Comments are a "dissending report". I hope people who read this talk page understand what is going on here. XX Sdruvss 11:33, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
As I said many times, it is impossible to find high quality secondary sources (sic) to interpret primary sources (sic) disagreements when the primary sources (sic) don't disagree with each other. The sole high quality secondary source (sic) that argue that they strong disagree is Sharkey's publisher. XX Sdruvss 16:02, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
In the CENIPA report section, we currently use two Brazilian and one English secondary sources to interpret and summarize the CENIPA report, along with a link to the CENIPA report itself, which is primary. If you see significant new information, which is not included in the current Portuguese sources or the English one, then please specify the source(s), and the specific details which you propose to change. Bear in mind that other sources, including more English ones, may need to be added, if we get into conflicts between sources about specific details or their relative weights. Here is the current CENIPA report section:
On December 10, 2008, more than two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issued its final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations.[1] The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[45][46]
According to CENIPA, the air traffic controllers contributed to the accident by originally issuing an improper clearance to the Embraer, and not catching or correcting the mistake during the subsequent handoff to Brasilia Center or later on. CENIPA also found errors in the way the controllers handled the loss of radar and radio contact with the Embraer.[1][46]
CENIPA concluded that the Embraer pilots also contributed to the accident with, among others, their failure to recognize that their transponder was inadvertently switched off, thereby disabling the collision avoidance system on both aircraft, as well as their overall insufficient training and preparation.
Crum375 ( talk) 21:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Final report topic is biased and full of mistakes. The text bellow is better and correct, according to the cited sources:
Final report
On December 10, 2008,more than[why?] two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issueditsthe Final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations.[1] The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[45][46] According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, CENIPA’s chief, "An accident does not occur by just one factor. They are several factors combined" [Globo reference]. The causes of the accident listed by CENIPA are [Estado, Folha, Globo references]:
- 1. Failure to carry out an appropriate flight planning by Legacy's pilots.
- 2. Hurry to take off and pressure of the passengers of the Legacy, preventing sufficient knowledge of the flight plan for pilots.
- 3. Inadvertent shutdown of the transponder, possibly by the limited experience of the Legacy's pilots.
- 4. Lack of communication between pilots and controllers.
- 5. Lack of integration between the Legacy pilots and little experience in piloting this type of aircraft.
- 6. The air traffic control in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brasilia and Manaus, although providing surveillance radar, did not correct the flight level of the Legacy or conducted procedures for certification of altitude when they started not to receive information from the transponder.
- 7. The controllers did not transfer correctly traffic from Brasilia to Manaus.
- 8. Flight controllers did not provide the predicted frequency for the Legacy to communicate adequately in the Amazon region.
- 9. The lack of involvement of supervisors of controllers, letting that decisions and actions over the Legacy flight were taken individually, without monitoring, advice and guidance provided for the air traffic control.
U.S. NTSB published two documents, "Comments on the Draft Final Report of the Aircraft Accident" (Summary and Detailed) in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 [cite annex 13], which were appended to CENIPA Final Report (Apendix 1 and 2), with the following Probable Cause statement: "The evidence collected during this investigation strongly supports the conclusion that this accident was caused by N600XL and GLO1907 following ATC clearances which directed them to operate in opposite directions on the same airway at the same altitude resulting in a midair collision. The loss of effective air traffic control was not the result of a single error, but of a combination of numerous individual and institutional ATC factors, which reflected systemic shortcomings in emphasis on positive air traffic control concepts" [cite CENIPA final report].
The NTSB further added the following contributing factors: "Contributing to this accident was the undetected loss of functionality of the airborne collision avoidance system technology as a result of the inadvertent inactivation of the transponder on board N600XL. Further contributing to the accident was inadequate communication between ATC and the N600XL flight crew" [cite CENIPA final report].
According to some American magazines and newspapers, CENIPA and NTSB arrived at disagreeing interpretations and conclusions, although this was not mentioned in any mainstream Brazilian source. They say that CENIPA report concludes the accident was caused by mistakes made both by air traffic controllers and by the Embraer pilots, whereas the NTSB focuses on the controllers and the ATC system, concluding thatboth flight crews acted properly but were placed on a collision course by the air traffic controllers.[2][6][7][48][49][50][51][none of the references say that "crew acted properly", instead all of them repeat NTSB comment (not conclusion) that:] the crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions, and was not in violation of any regulations [2][6][7][48][49][50][51].
According to [Jim Swickard of..., it is a signed article] Aviation Week, "the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) strongly disagreed with the Brazilian conclusions regarding the Legacy pilots' actions as a causal factor, noting, 'The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions,' as did the GOL airlines crew."[6] Aviation Week adds that "the Brazilian military operates that country's air traffic control system, conducted the investigation and authored the report."[not necessary, it is said several times in the text, and written here induces to conspiracy theory. This paragraph repeats the arguments of above paragraph ]
Is there something above that is not verifiable? I believe not. (I apologyse by my poor translantion, but I'm sure Crum can improve it) XX Sdruvss 01:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
AS CAUSAS
- 1. Não realização de um adequado planejamento de vôo pelos pilotos do jato Legacy
- 2. Pressa para decolar e a pressão dos passageiros do Legacy, impossibilitando o suficiente conhecimento do plano de vôo pelos pilotos
- 3. Desligamento inadvertido do transponder, "possivelmente pela pouca experiência dos pilotos" do Legacy
- 4. Falta de comunicação entre pilotos e controladores
- 5. Falta de entrosamento entre os pilotos do Legacy e pouca experiência em pilotar esse tipo de aeronave
- 6. O controle de tráfego aéreo de São José dos Campos, Brasília e Manaus, apesar de estar prestando serviço de vigilância radar, não corrigiu o nível de vôo do Legacy nem realizou procedimentos previstos para a certificação de altitude quando passou a não receber as informações do transponder
- 7. Os controladores não transferiram corretamente o tráfego de Brasília para Manaus
- 8. Os controladores de vôo não ofereceram a freqüência prevista para que o jato Legacy se comunicasse adequadamente na região da Amazônia
- 9. A falta de envolvimento do supervisores dos controladores de vôo permitiu que as decisões e ações relativas ao jato Legacy fossem tomadas de forma individual, sem o acompanhamento, assessoramento e orientação previstos para o controle de tráfego aéreo.
Sdruvss, the CENIPA report is a high quality primary source, and we use it extensively (28 times) in the article as a reference. But we can't pull out pieces from it, or we would violate WP:NOR, and if one single secondary publication does the pulling, in conflict with others, it would violate WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. In this case, the list of "causas" which you posted above, to the best of my knowledge, is not quoted directly from the report, but has been drawn up by one reporter in one Brazilian news publication. The CENIPA report has 266 pages, and to summarize those pages we need either a self-contained 'probable cause' statement, which CENIPA did not provide, or a consensus among all top level sources. In addition, the NTSB report, which was included with the CENIPA report, did have a probable cause statement, which was in conflict with CENIPA's conclusions (according to high quality secondary sources). So we need to also present NTSB's conclusions, along with their comparison and contrast to the CENIPA report, to show how they conflict. The current article's "Final reports" section contains three subsections, one for each topic (CENIPA, NTSB and Comparison). I suggest again, that you address each subsection individually, starting with the first one, and following our NPOV rules. Thanks, Crum375 ( talk) 14:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Let me see if I understood: Are you saying that we need better sources than ALL Brazilian newspapers to summarize 10 pages of CENIPA conclusions that where presented in a press conference, which was live transmitted on TV, to write 9 causes of the accident in a Wikipedia article? Are you saying that "some reporter" of ALL Brazilians newspaper are not able to write what was told in the press conference to announce CENIPA conclusions? Are you saying that the sole high quality mainstream source telling us that NTSB and CENIPA reports are at odds with each other (sic) is Sharkey's publisher? Are you saying that WP can't publish CENIPA conclusions because no one summarized it the way you required it to be done and the way Sharkey's publisher did? Are you saying that all Brazilians that don't read your Wikipedia article and Sharkey's publisher articles live in ignorance about this accident causes? We, Brazilians, don't know accident causes? I hope you and WP understand the consequences of these statements. XX Sdruvss 22:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Crum, all Brazilians sources during disclosure of CENIPA Final Report (there is only one final report) including NTSB Comments Appendix, didn't say that NTSB disagrees from the causes of accident pointed by CENIPA. This is a strong indication that the sole article of Sharkey's publisher that say this is not reliable. You wrongly cite Sharkey's publisher. You say "crew acted properly" citing AW and NYT. The AW article you cite to justify this statement is signed by Jim Swickard who recently was invited by Embraer to visit its plant in Brazil. He publishes his articles in the same magazine of Sharkey. Jim Swickard citing NTSB says "The crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions". NYT says: "The crew of the business jet was not in violation of any regulations”. Thus, you make clearly wrong citations and you should correct it without questioning. But if these sources are right saying CENIPA and NTSB disagree, we would find in CENIPA report or in the news (anyone) that crew didn't fly the cleared route, not complying with ATC instructions, and in violation of regulations. We are not able to find this statement in CENIPA report as one of the causes of accident. Does any of those 9 causes listed above said that crew disobey clearance? Does any of those 9 causes listed above said that crew violate any regulations? No, they don't. So, clearly AW and NYT are wrong, and that is why no one of Brazilian newspapers made the same error as Sharkey's publisher. Do you think that all Brazilians newspapers are wrong and Sharkey's publishers are right? OK, I admit that, but the minimum we should do is to report both summaries and let readers judge by themselves. We should not censor all Brazilians newspaper because one Sharkey's publisher said something that no one else said. I assume your good faith, but you are censoring accident causes according to CENIPA. XX Sdruvss 00:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. We can't just pull out a bunch of quotes from a primary source in a contentious case, unless there is no disagreement among all secondary sources. In this situation, we have two high quality primary sources, the CENIPA and NTSB reports, which have been reported to be in conflict between each other according to high quality secondary sources. Therefore, if we were to just randomly or selectively pull quotes from the primary sources (which are hundreds of pages long), we'd be violating WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, etc. We must let high quality secondary sources do that analysis, summary and comparison between the conflicting sources for us, which is what the current article does. If you can point us to another high level secondary source which compares these primary sources and sheds a different light on the matter, it would be most helpful. Crum375 ( talk) 13:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is being "obstructed". We have two basic reports written about this accident, by two different investigative agencies, representing two different governments. Although they worked collaboratively during the investigation, they ended up with two separate reports. The NTSB report, which was published separately by the U.S. government, is also included as "Appendix 1" which was appended to the CENIPA report written by the Brazilian Air Force. We have high quality mainstream secondary sources, The New York Times and Aviation Week, which tell us that the two reports are "dissenting" and "sparring" with each other, i.e. in significant conflict. Therefore, we must use high level secondary sources to interpret, analyze, compare and contrast these two reports and their conflicting results. This is what the article currently does. If you have more high quality secondary sources which interpret the two reports and help us compare them, please provide them. Crum375 ( talk) 14:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Again, we have two basic high quality primary sources in this case, NTSB and CENIPA reports. They were written by two professional investigative agencies, representing the U.S. and Brazilian governments, respectively. The NTSB report is included in its entirety as "Appendix 1" and appended to the CENIPA report. These two reports have been characterized as being "sparring" and "dissenting" by two high quality secondary sources: The New York Times and Aviation Week. Therefore, we must present an analysis, comparison and contrast of these conflicting primary sources by high quality secondary sources. That you, Sdruvss, believe that The New York Times and Aviation Week are tainted, corrupt, unreliable or unacceptable and therefore should be ignored, is immaterial. Wikipedia is based on high quality secondary sources interpreting and summarizing primary ones, and this article conforms to that standard. Crum375 ( talk) 15:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
As can be verified above, we do not analyze "primary sources" (sic) ourselves. The summary above is a literal translation from Estado, one of the most important Brazilian newspapers, besides that there is a lot more. As can been verified above there is only one Final Report, but Sharkey's publisher didn't like it. As can be seen bellow I don't want to obstruct Sharkey's publisher, but only include what ALL Brazilian newspapers said of accident causes, and all Brazilians knows, but who reads only WP don't know. I just want to share what is been hiding from WP readers. XX Sdruvss 18:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Joaquim Nabuco lived in many countries, and among others was Brazilian ambassador to the United States. But he died in 1910, so his "evidence" of poor quality journalism is based on mostly 19th century newspapers, regardless of country. I think (hope) the press has improved considerably since then. Crum375 ( talk) 20:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
In that case, you should be willing to explain anything you have posted here, so we can understand you. Crum375 ( talk) 00:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
If you are trying to make a point, you need to explain yourself with your own words, without replying by quoting others. Otherwise, people will not take you seriously. Crum375 ( talk) 02:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
This talk page seems more active now than at the time of the accident. I figured, since I was also a contributor to this article, that I'd try to find a way to address some of Sdruvss' concerns (some of which I somewhat agree with). If there's any doubt as to the credibility of Mr. Pedicini or his connection to Joe Sharkey, whatever that may be, why don't we simply switch the source? Here's a similar story from Flight Global that references the same points in the NTSB report as the Aviation Week article did: NTSB: Loss of 'effective air traffic control' at root of 2006 Legacy 600, Gol 737 collision At the same time, since both reports (CENIPA and NTSB) are given equal weight everywhere else in the article, we could perhaps include a quote in the same format, from this article at Folha Online, one of Brazil's most reputable news sources. That way the equal weight is kept and there should be no debating the credibility of the source for the NTSB quote. XXX antiuser 16:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I know that it is against WP policies to talk of this subject here, but I wish you all, Crum, LSD, WhisperToMe and AntiUser a Merry Christmas!!! Sdruvss ( talk) 14:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
To reach a compromise, I suggest this Final Report section:
Final report
On December 10, 2008, more than two years after the accident, Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos (CENIPA) issued the Final report, describing its investigation, findings, conclusions and recommendations The CENIPA report includes a "Conclusions" section that summarizes the known facts and lists a variety of contributing factors relating to both air traffic controllers and the Embraer's flight crew.[1] According to Brigadier Jorge Kersul Filho, CENIPA’s chief, "An accident does not occur by just one factor. They are several factors combined" [reference: Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa]. The causes of the accident listed by CENIPA are:
- 1. Failure to carry out an appropriate flight planning by Legacy's pilots.
- 2. Hurry to take off and pressure of the passengers of the Legacy, preventing sufficient knowledge of the flight plan for pilots.
- 3. Inadvertent shutdown of the transponder, possibly by the limited experience of the Legacy's pilots.
- 4. Lack of communication between pilots and controllers.
- 5. Lack of integration between the Legacy pilots and little experience in piloting this type of aircraft.
- 6. The air traffic control in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brasilia and Manaus, although providing surveillance radar, did not correct the flight level of the Legacy or conducted procedures for certification of altitude when they started not to receive information from the transponder.
- 7. The controllers did not transfer correctly traffic from Brasilia to Manaus.
- 8. Flight controllers did not provide the predicted frequency for the Legacy to communicate adequately in the Amazon region.
- 9. The lack of involvement of supervisors of controllers, letting that decisions and actions over the Legacy flight were taken individually, without monitoring, advice and guidance provided for the air traffic control. [reference: FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle
U.S. NTSB published two documents, "Comments on the Draft Final Report of the Aircraft Accident" (Summary and Detailed) in accordance with ICAO Annex 13, which were appended to CENIPA Final Report (Apendix 1 and 2), containing the following Probable Cause statement: "The evidence collected during this investigation strongly supports the conclusion that this accident was caused by N600XL and GLO1907 following ATC clearances which directed them to operate in opposite directions on the same airway at the same altitude resulting in a midair collision. The loss of effective air traffic control was not the result of a single error, but of a combination of numerous individual and institutional ATC factors, which reflected systemic shortcomings in emphasis on positive air traffic control concepts"[1].
The NTSB further added the following contributing factors: "Contributing to this accident was the undetected loss of functionality of the airborne collision avoidance system technology as a result of the inadvertent inactivation of the transponder on board N600XL. Further contributing to the accident was inadequate communication between ATC and the N600XL flight crew" [1].
According to some sources, CENIPA and NTSB arrived at disagreeing interpretations and conclusions. They say that CENIPA report concludes the accident was caused by mistakes made both by air traffic controllers and by the Embraer pilots, whereas the NTSB focuses on the controllers and the ATC system, concluding that the crew flew the route precisely as cleared and complied with all ATC instructions, and was not in violation of any regulations [1][6][7][48][49][50][51].
XX Sdruvss 16:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The text above meets all your requirements, but even so, we stay in this endless talking. The entire text comes from reliable "secondary sources" (sic). I'm still assuming your good faith. XX Sdruvss 18:49, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't want to keep this endless talk; You are repeating arguments. I want that you say what is wrong with my compromise suggestion. Estado is not a reliable source? AW and NYT are cited (correctly cited). Is it all wrong? I'm still assuming your good faith. XX Sdruvss 19:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
(following the debate...)
This is a strategy to leave us in a deadlock? Sharkey's publisher said CENIPA and NTSB disagree in one solitary article. No other source said they agree; you are right. Thus, we are obstructed when we try to include in the WP article Estado, Folha and Globo articles (all of them have even huge sections just to join all accident articles) to summarize the accident causes because none of them said that CENIPA and NTSB agree. We are obstructed to include the nine causes pointed by ALL Brazilian newspapers. Clever strategy, but I assume your good faith. XX Sdruvss 22:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Eureka! In scientific methodology, as you should know, a null hypothesis is a hypothesis that might be falsified on the basis of observed data. The null hypothesis typically proposes a general or default position, such as that there is no relationship between two variables. This description is assumed to be valid unless the actual behavior of the data contradicts this assumption. Thus, the null hypothesis is contrasted against another or alternative hypothesis. If we test and reject our null hypothesis we should accept the alternative hypothesis. In this episode, we want to test if Estado, Folha, and Globo (EFG) argue that CENIPA and NTSB disagree with other. The null hypothesis (H0) is that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB disagree. The alternative hypothesis (H1) is that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB agree. If EFG argue that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, it would be expected to be observed in at last one of their articles that they would had said that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, but we cannot find any EFG article where they say that CENIPA and NTSB disagree. Thus we reject the null hypothesis (H0) that EFG believe that CENIPA and NTSB disagree, and have to accept the alternative hypothesis (H1) that EFG believes that CENIPA and NTSB agree. So we can scientifically assure that Estado, Folha, and Globo strongly believe that CENIPA and NTSB agree. XX Sdruvss 23:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
That is exactly what I said. If all sources don't say they disagree (H0 - null hypothesis), all sources assume they agree or it is a not relevant issue (H1 - alternative hypothesis) as Sharkey's publishers believe it is. We should block all sources because they don't say what we would like they had said? But I assume your good faith. XX Sdruvss 00:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
As you wish:
Relatório do Cenipa aponta erros de pilotos e militares
Aeronáutica culpa pilotos e controladores por acidente da Gol
FAB expõe falhas de pilotos e do controle (In my humble opinion, this is the best)
Pilotos desligaram transponder inadvertidamente, diz Cenipa
Cenipa apresenta relatório final do acidente aéreo da Gol; leia o relatório
Relatório sobre acidente da Gol aponta erros dos controladores e pilotos do Legacy
Relatório aponta erro de operação em acidente de avião da Gol
Deficiências no preparo dos controladores e dos pilotos do Legacy contribuíram para o acidente da Gol, diz relatório do Cenipa
XX
Sdruvss
00:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
If quoting is not the issue, can we quote them in Final Report? Yes or No? XX Sdruvss 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
"No, not OK" = It is not ok to quote any Brazilian newspapers informing CENIPA conclusions of the accident to 200 millions of Brazilians. "We have two highly reliable secondary sources, The New York Times" = Joe Sharkey's publisher, "and Aviation Week" = Joe Sharkey's publisher, "telling us the NTSB and CENIPA reports" = NTSB "report" (sic) title: "U.S. Comments on Draft Final Report", 10 pages, "which are primary sources, are in conflict with each other, so we need to present them as such" = obstructing all other sources that consider NTSB comments not relevant. "In other words, the logical presentation is CENIPA, NTSB and then the analysis of their conflicting conclusions" = the way Crum and the "consensus" here allow to be, including wrong citations of Sharkey's publisher (Sharkey's publisher didn't say that "crew acted properly"). This WP article has became a not neutral unreliable source of information of the accident. I suggest to those who want to know accident causes and don't speak Portuguese, use Google translation and access directly reliable sources listed above. XX Sdruvss 12:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I recommend for those who want to know accident causes and don't speak Portuguese, use Google translation and access directly Brazilian news that summarize final reports. XX Sdruvss 14:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: no one of these sources said "the crew acted properly" as written in WP article. XX Sdruvss 01:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
WP says that Reliable source is, and the basis of its reliability, depends on the context. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made. Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process. Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion if they lack neutral corroboration. Widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, while widespread doubts about reliability weigh against it. No other Brazilian newspaper, which are very close to the accident, use the expression "dissenting report" or highlight the "conflict". WP adds: The goal is to reflect established views of sources as far as we can determine them. Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact without attribution. XX Sdruvss 12:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)