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Goodfriend100 you would agree Korean ever occupied the whole east coast of China?
Time of flight—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.232.59 ( talk • contribs)
--Removed-- personal opinions.
Don't avoid my question and answer it. Why don't you delete text that are sourced from [3], which is a POV site (since it is Korean)? I don't understand why you are rejecting sources that don't agree with you, but leave POV sources that agree with you alone. Its almost ridiculous, Endroit, when you claim your not on either side but leave POV sources that support China alone.
I agree that my.goguryeo.com is a POV source. Good friend100 12:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
You clearly do not understand english. I just answered your question above your last comment. Good friend100 15:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR and also WP:V. The sources you have used may be original research and can be interpreted in different ways, which violates Wikipedia policy. It can also violate WP:NPOV. The fact that the source you have used is in Chinese, and since most of the editors here cannot read Chinese, those sources cannot be verifiable.
You are violating several Wikipedia policies. Good friend100 03:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow, alot happens when you are busy over a weekend! I also agree that mygoguryeo.com is certainly not a NPOV site and things on the web site should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, why so much verbage on Balhae here? We are not discussing the Balhae article. Are we using Parhae to map the geneology of Koguryo? Is that the rationale? WangKon936 04:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
--Removed-- This is from Chinese nationalists, so I removed. History should be history, not to be used as pride.
Chinapride and Chinesepride... sockpuppets? There seems to be an increased infultration of sockpuppets here as of late, these two I've pointed out not being the least of them. WangKon936 23:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Goguryeo-China Wars" is a blatantly pro-Korean POV title. It is very funny that when a Chinese polity (such as the Yan state of the 16 Kingdoms) is a formative part of Goguryeo, there is no mention of the words China or Chinese; but when a Chinese polity is responsible for going to war against Goguryeo, it is suddenly labeled Chinese and of China (such as the case for "Goguryeo-China Wars"). Furthermore, the obvious POV and siege mentality of some of the editors here against more objective edits is truly laughable. -- Naus 02:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Caveat added According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources, "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." I am obliged to make it clear that I currently don't have any problem with Dr. Mark Byington's trustworthiness. I also think that Dr. Mark Byington may not know that somebody here has disseminated false information about his career, and has used his casual email messages as reliable sources. The related arguments are about two general problems, ie., the authoritativity of a post-doc fellow in a field (does post-doc fellowship imply authoritativity?) and using email messages as published materials with a reliable publication process. These arguments are by no means personal against Dr. Byington himself (And it is impolite to Dr. Byington if the arguments become personal). I apologize if my remarks have implied any impoliteness, and this apology is all about politeness issues, but not truth or fallacy issues. BTW, to User:Good friend100, don't you think you should make an apology to Dr. Byington because of the false information you broadcast again and again?-- Jiejunkong 02:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Mark Byington iswas a post-doc in Harvard University. I don't think we can call him a prominent figure in research when he wrote the argued email. And if his email is used as reference, this kind of documents without any peer review are not considered as reliable sources. For example,
Wikisource refuses to accept such modern documents without peer reviews.--
Jiejunkong
05:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought he has published a research paper about this controversy. Now I know it is just an email. Good thing we have not had cited sources coming from comic books or TV dramas. Wiki Pokemon 05:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Just an attempt to not use reliable sources which he knows are correct. No easy way to reject a Harvard professor is there? Hahaha. Good friend100 16:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Come now, everyone. Let me appeal to your sense of caution and common sense. What good will come of this conversation thread? It is irrelevant and unseemly to be discussing a flesh-and-blood individual in this way. All that stuff that we learned from our parents about manners and good behaviour apply in any situation that we find ourselves, no? Let's wrap this up and address issues in the article in a more direct way, shall we? ^-^ Mumun 無文 20:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Mark Byington's June 2002(as a Harvard University) paper titled "The Creation of an Ancient Minority Nationality: Koguryo in Chinese Historiography" was published in the First World Congress of Korean Studies. He also had seminars about East Asian Archeology Seminar at Harvard University in March 21, 1997 titled "Castles of the Archer Kings: Ruins of the Early Korean State of Koguryo in Northeast China".--kwayzguy
The message of his email was informal, but portrayed a concise view about the current Northeast Project that the CCP finances. His message was based upon his views from personal fieldwork and references of many peer-reviewed papers. His articles says the same thing, but in a more scholarly manner.--kwayzguy
A person like Mark Byington has the advanced degrees and the years of meticulous research and publications. You can't easily throw an "off-the-record" email as "non-sense". A personal opinion must stem from some sort of an idea or construct to shape his view about the Koguryo "debate". Korean historians and non-Korean historians would have come across his articles even before this issue exploded to this proportion. I do not know the actual rules, but he's a historian and his opinion whether "off-the-record" or not has credibility. This is a debate should be about the issues not about the person. Don't attack someone or his opinion because it seems "dubious". ---kwayzguy
The email that was posted within the site was an international, English language, non-partisan, moderated electronic discussion group. It adheres to strict academic standards. The point of this international electronic forum is to provide Korean specialists to discuss and communicate about theories, tools of analysis, and etc. It functions similarly to a seminar, but more accessible. The forum is open only to those with a serious academic commitment to Korean studies. Any messages without any serious scholarly debate is deleted. Mark Byington is a trustworthy person because he is a serious historian dedicated to Korean studies with name recognition within Korean studies groups. He has also been involved with Korean studies at least since the late 1990s. The moderators of this site are established Korean specialists. You have specialists such as Gari Leyard, J.C. Jamieson, Ruediger Frank, Andrei Lankov, and more. So how does Mark Byington's email become "dubious" and not "reliable" because its an email. It's group of Korean specialists discussing a topic on this site and Mark Byington posted his academic view.----kwayzguy
First, I don't know who you are and why didn't you sign your user name here. I don't care whether you are a big name or a small name, or your profession is the president of United States of America or whatsoever. Wikipedia has rules, and if the rules say that something fails to be qualified as reliable source, then it is not a reliable source. Here is a quote from wikipolicy Wikipedia:Reliable Sources:"Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Email messages already failed the 1st criteria "published materials with a reliable publication process". Thus even if you are arguing that the author is trustworthy or authoritative, it doesn't qualify. Even for trustworthy or authoritative sources, you need to quote credible published materials with a reliable publication process, not some smalltalk style messages with no responsibility held against the talker.-- Jiejunkong 04:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Hostile reverts from Users Cydevil38, Good friend100, and 219.253.79.115 (of Seoul, KR) have been preventing any legitimate good faith edits to restore some semblance of balance and objectivity to this article. These actions are absolutely despicable. That the Wikipedia community have allowed these three trolls to continue their agenda for so long here reflects a serious attack on the spirit of Wikipedia and a failure on its private mediation that does not appear to exist. -- JakeLM 18:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy allows anyone to make edits. Do not worry too much about biased edits, it will be corrected eventually. The more biased the edit, the more resistece it will encounter. This is how Wikipedia works, it will automatically balanced itself. Simply put, good editors will prevail over bad editors. But it takes time and vigilance against bad editors with their bad edits.
Wiki Pokemon
18:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course I will! Check [ [7]]. Good friend100 20:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mark Byington quote: "current practice in the PRC" in describing "a very vaguely defined greater Chinese nation of the remote past," and that their position is "one that must exist in order to fall into line with current Chinese views of the Chinese past"
First of all, the current Chinese view of the Chinese past certainly has not been a practice limited to the PRC (to suggest that the PRC invented this concept is simply trying to disguise China-bashing with PRC-bashing). The current interpretation of Chinese history has been in existence since at least the 1800s under the Qing Dynasty and was one widely acknowledged by Western countries (See late 19th century American map of China on the right. The Qing Dynasty was called the "Chinese Empire" even though it was ruled by Manchus). During the late Qing Dynasty, the concept of being Chinese overlaped ethnic boundaries such as Manchu, Tatar or Han. The ROC and PRC directly inherited the legacy of the Qing Dynasty, not that of the Han Dynasty. And the history of the Qing Dynasty is intimately linked with the history of Manchuria. -- JakeLM 22:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems like that because almost no other countries or historians agree with the Chinese viewpoint. What makes people angry is not that Goguryeo is part of Chinese history (this is obviously true), but how China is simply making a claim that Goguryeo was Chinese. People view this as intruding into other people's own history.
I removed the "email" source from the article. And english sources (yes, western sources), are accepted because this is the english wikipedia and the sources can be verified since people that edit here are english speakers.
I disagree with both Chinese and Korean primary sources. I don't think I have ever endorsed Korean canonical sources nor do I have access to them. I disagree with them because they can be interpreted differently and can be original research. Good friend100 20:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have been thinking about some "technical problem" of the article. THe article seems to have proper citation from various sources. But unless one looks carefully at the citation, the reader might not know that many of the sources are of poor quality. Some editors obviously have been exploiting this obscure loop hole, citing POV sources to make their edits look more legitimate, and hoping that the reader might not find out the dubious sources. A reader might thus be "cheated" in this way, thinking that the arcticle is sound because it has been backed up by what they thought are good sources.
One way to close this loop hole, is to put all cited sources into objective categories like (1) Published Researched Papers (2) Conical Historical Records (3) Newspaper and Magazine Articles (4) Partiotic Websites (5) Emails and Internet Forums (6) Other Sources etc. All edits need to be properly cited and other editors will then categorise the sources according to above. This way a reader will easily judge the "strength" of this article by seeing the legitimacy of the sources cited.
There is technical problem to be solved first though. The current "ref" and "reference" tags do not allow categorization. We need a new "tool". I am think about extending those tags to allow categorization capability. I think such a "tool" will help to improve articles (not just this very controversial one) I think, by letting user knows which sources are good or bad. Does any editors out there know how this could be done, or even possible? I am not familiar with Wikimedia, PHP or OpenSource, but I am willing to get involved with this project with some help from others. Are there any editors willing to help out with this?
Wiki Pokemon
04:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The idea to categorize references is not from me. It is from another editor here which I thought is an excellent idea. He did it manually which is tedious and I feel that many editors will not take the effort to do. To make other editors do this I thought we need a tool as easy to use as the current "ref" and "reference". I am just suggesting to modify "ref" and "reference" tags to add categorization capability, so that editors will be willing to do this. Like I say we need lots of technical expertise in Wikimedia, PHP and OpenSource to make this possible. I cannot do it alone, I need help from others. Anyone who would like to help can contact me on my talk page.
Wiki Pokemon
19:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I volunteered too quickly to do this. I need to learn from scratch PHP, the working of Wikimedia and OpenSource, plus getting access to the projects and testing ...etc. I don't have that much spare energy. But I have checked out Template:Harvard citation and Harvard referencing, and it looks like it can meet our need. If nobody object we can go ahead and change citation to Harvard style, "ref" should be used purely for footnote only. I urge all editors not to object because this will make the article better. As for categories we can start with these
Feel free to make suggestions.
Wiki Pokemon
05:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There have been some changes since my first revisions to the intro paragraph and I wanted to go through them with participants and see what people think.
"Two thirds lying in China"
Should be taken out. Why? This supports a Chinese POV. Koreans can equality say that Koguryo covered two thirds of the Korean peninsula. It's only fair that we add both statements. However, given that the intro is getting unwieldy as it is, let's just keep it simple and say that the kingdom was in both Korea and Southern Manchuria, as we had always had a consensus to say.
"Many Chinese scholars consider Goguryeo an important regional power which had maintained century-long tributary relationship to China and was heavily influenced by Chinese culture, thus should also be considered as part of Chinese history."
I'm not sure if there is a consensus of Chinese scholars who believe this in it's entirety. I think it's Chinese scholars who are more tied to the Northeast Asian project who would adhere to this. If this is true, then it should be reflected as such. Furthermore, it's not likely that Chinese scholars of the Chinese Diaspora (particularly in Singapore and Taiwan) believe this either. Thus, it should, at the very least, mention that it is Chinese scholars who are within the borders of the PRC who hold to these set of beliefs, or it should be toned down.
"However, most international scholars agree that Goguryeo was the most powerful kingdom of the Three Kingdoms of Korea[citation needed]."
There is no consensus of international scholars who believe this so it should be taken off.
"It was an active participant in the power struggle between the Three Kingdoms of Korea as well as the foreign affairs of associated polities in China and Japan."
This is entirely true. Many references to Koguryo (or rather Koryo) in the Nihongi.
You know what. All the little edits in the intro paragraph by both Korean and Chinese ultra nationalists are rather childish and unprofessional. For anyone who comes to Wiki to actually want to LEARN about this important Asian kingdom are probably confused by reading this terrible intro.
WangKon936
05:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Chinese scholars and Korean scholars believe Korean-Manchurian or Manchurian Korean descent population numbers around 107,430,000 millions. They are scattered around North East China or China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonjj ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a question I have tried to answer to see what the conscensus of Chinese scholars believe on the matter of Koguryo. This is complicated by the fact that much of what Chinese scholars believe is locked in Chinese language materials. Furthermore, what the Chinese believe regarding Koguryo is diverse and varies within and without the borders of the PRC. Some Chinese scholars believe that Koguryo falls within their histiography and others do not. What prompted my question is when I ran across the following article: http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?bicode=060000&biid=2007052973068
The Dong A-Ilbo states that:
I believe extensive rewrites to this article are necessary. However, there appears to be diversity within the PRC borders as well as to how to view Koguryo. We should get to the bottom of what these diverse ideas are, not only in the PRC proper, but also (if possible) in Taiwan, Singapore and the Chinese Diaspora. WangKon936 15:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it'd be wise to choose several reliable NPOV sources on Goguryeo, such as those done by Rhee, Nelson, Gardiner, Barnes and Byington, to do some rewriting. Cydevil38 10:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the definition of reliable source from Wikipedia:Reliable Sources: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." For a counterexample, E-mail messages obviously fail the criteria "with a reliable publication process". They are not reliable.-- Jiejunkong 03:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Recently, there has been an increasing number of vandals on this article [8] [9], as well as those relating to it. Some of these new trolls have adopted incredibly obscure usernames denoting their allegiances/nationality, and a significant portion of these new breed of vandals/trolls are "Chinese." Common tactics employed by these new trolls include (but not limited to): 1) Harassment of Korean user/talk pages [10] [11] 2) Persistent blanking of disputed articles [12] 3) Persistent showing of support for Chinese editors involved in the disputed articles [13] [14] 4) Involvement in disputed articles involving Koreans, but not Chinese [15] [16] 5) Awarding administrators who've taken action against a particular individual/group [17] [18].
Despite this, I have reason to believe that many of these new trolls are in fact, not Chinese. After a bit of searching, a few sites became suspect. I won't point fingers at anyone or accuse any particular group, judge for yourself (URL to a popular Korean MMORPG message board):
If true, what this user did is wrong. However, pointing fingers solves nothing. Let's move on fellas. WangKon936 03:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
1) help out with anti-Wikipedia campaign
2) Why Wikipedia is so fuc*ked up
3) WHERE IS MY 100K JSTAR1??????? [19]
Regards,
Assault11 01:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If true, what this user did is wrong. However, pointing fingers solves nothing. Let's move on fellas. WangKon936 03:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It's an abuse of wikipedia editing rights.-- Jiejunkong 08:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
While I don't agree with the means, I whole heartedly agree with the motives. This Goguryeo article really shows Wikipedia's limits in presenting a fair, reliable source of information. Cydevil38 10:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Who will be interesting in distortion of Korean history other than Chinese and Japanese trolls? Vast majority of Anti-Korean trolls are in fact Japanese and Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 09:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Assault11 persists on changing History of Manchuria to History of Northeast China. If this kind of reversion conitnues, the History of Manchuria template should be left out of this article. It's a controversial template in the first place anyways. Cydevil38 10:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Assault11, the template MUST be moved to northeast china. We have already discussed this and it is not fair for nationalists to manipulate wikipedia. Zhang123 18:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38, you participated in the discussions with only one thing in mind - bringing up irrelevant topics into the discussion [22] and making ad hominem attacks against those have different viewpoints than you [23] [24].
I have made many attempts to discuss with you on these matters. You did not reciprocate, now who's fault is that? I asked many questions regarding the historical usage of Manchuria, yet you didn't utter a single word. If you are incompetent in NE Chinese history (as you stated yourself [25]), that is not my problem. You chose to not be involved in the discussion process. If you think my points are "pointless," then that's too bad. As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to alter what has been agreed upon. Assault11 21:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm getting really sick of this repetitive "discussion" with Assault11, so I'll simply provide the "evidence" that they've attempted to use to prove my point that they were only eluding the main argument and continues to push for a POV that has little support from evidence. This is the evidence that Wikipokemon attempted to use:
[26] Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[27] Encarta Dictionary
[28] American Heritage Dictionary
[29] Collins Dictionary
[30] Answer.com
[31] Columbia Encyclopedia
[32] Britannica Encyclopedia
[33] Worldbook Encyclopedia
[34] UK Encarta Encyclopedia
[35] Catholic Encyclopedia
[36] Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
[37] AncientWorld.net
[38] Nuttall Encyclopedia
All of those are entries on "Manchuria", with the exception of Encarta. This is final and irrefutable without contradictory evidence. Cydevil38 00:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
THE MANCHURIA TEMPLATE SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS: 1. If the reasoning is that Korea's Goguryeo and China's Manchuria overlap, then it's only fair to add a Korean template to the Manchuria Wikipedia article. 2. This is blatant Sinocentrism. The Manchuria template casts an image that China's land and influence exceeds it's current boundaries without any unbiased evidence. China's expansionist agenda is becoming quite apparent. The usurpation of Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and the violent approach China has with Taiwan should cast suspicion to China's new "claim" that Goguryeo was just another Chinese kingdom. Would we accept Nazi Germany's claims that France, Poland, and other parts of Western Europe were in fact larger territories of Germany? 3. To look at this problem from another angle, let's look at the Greece and Italy/Rome Wikipedia articles. Greek and Italian/Roman exchanges are quite notable. Yet there are no Greek templates in Italian/Roman articles. Why? Because of the controversial nature of it's insertion.
To maintain Wikipedia's democratic nature and it's precision, I hope the Wikipedians out there will seriously consider this argument. Scholars from Harvard to the University of California, as well European scholars, all maintain the questionable nature and the suspicion of China's assertions and the ramifications that their assertions entail. Although a template, it can be seen as a small step to fighting imperialism and preserving fairness and accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.170.97.196 ( talk) 19:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Where is the proof that the content of "Political Connections between Goguryeo and the Chinese Central Plains Dynasties" was made by Wei Cuncheng himself? I recall seeing the source for it, but nothing in the short summary suggested that this was the work of the person in question. Assault11 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I dispute how information from the primary sources are being interpreted. Tributary relations in the past were a means to commit to trade and diplomacy. The source that the writer referred to was Wei Cunchung, an active participant of the Northeast Project whose POV is very biased and controversial. Hence, the readers should be informed of where that segment came from. Cydevil38 23:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the inital insertion of the segment: [40], where it is clearly shown that the reference material is a work of Wei Cunchung. Cydevil38 00:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The current segment on "Political connections between Goguryeo and Central Plains dynasties", based on a work by a Northeast Project participant, is certainly unacceptable by NPOV and factual accuracy standards, but I wouldn't mind pointing out that Goguryeo did engage in tributary relations. However, this should be presented under a section that covers overall diplomatic relations of Goguryeo, and point out that other non-Chinese states, such as Bakje, Shilla and Japan(Wa) have also engaged in this tributary relationship. As for what tributary relationship is, I think tribute presents good information on this for the readers. Cydevil38 00:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
In an interview with the Korean press, I think Kenneth Gardiner provided a very balanced view on the relations bewteen Goguryeo and China: 후한(後漢) 시대 대부분의 기간 동안 고구려는 전한 시대에 유지했던 종속적 동맹국 지위에서 결별한 양상을 보였으며 동북아시아에 있어 중국의 패권에 도전하는 주요 세력으로 점차 부상했다. 더불어 고구려가 늘 중국의 세가 약해진 시기를 이용했다는 사실도 특기할 만하다. 중국이 강성하고 통일상태에 있을 때에는 저자세를 견지했다. 이런 점에서 볼 때 고구려 왕들도 중국 변방의 여느 국가의 왕들과 별반 다르지 않았다. 기실 북부 베트남은 여전히 중화제국의 일부분으로 남았으며 9세기 당 왕조가 몰락할 때까지 그 상태를 유지했다.
고구려의 왕들은 국내에서 자신들의 권위를 높이기 위해 중국 조정의 책봉을 받아들였다. 전기 고구려의 왕위는 부족 간에 오고 갔으며 특정 부족(예를 들면 계루부) 출신의 왕이 책봉을 받은 경우 이는 그 부족의 권위를 높이는 데에 보탬이 됐다.”
For most of the Later Han Dynasty era, Goguryeo veered away from the subordinate alliance it maintained with Former Han Dynasty and gradually rose as a main power challenging China's hegemony in Northeast Asia. It's also an interesting fact that when China became weak, Goguryeo often used this as an opportunity. When China was strong and unified, Goguryeo maintained low status. In this respect, Goguryeo kings were not very different from kings of other states bordering China. The fact is that northern Vietnam remained a part of the Chinese empire, and this status was maintained until the fall of Tang Dynasty in the 9th century.
Goguryeo kings accepted investitures from the Chinese government to enhance their own domestic authority. The throne of early Goguryeo was exchanged bewteen tribes, and when a king from a particular tribe(such as Gyeru tribe) recieved investiture, it greatly helped in enhancing the authority of that tribe. [41] I'd appreciate it if someone else could verify this translation. Cydevil38 01:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't participated in this argument about "Tributary Relations". Now let me try to offer my view as an observer. My personal opinion is that this tributary argument is not the core part of this article. In those " Twenty-Four Histories" books before Jurchen Jin Dynasty, the authoritative authors treated Goguryeo as a foreign state, sometimes with tributory relation, but sometimes without. It is valid to say that Han Chinese people before year 1115 had nearly nothing to do with Goguryeo, except some rare exceptions like the famous Tang General Gao Xianzhi (Go Seonji), who was from a Goguryeo noble family. Therefore, the Goguryeo factor in modern China is nearly all from the Goguryeo-> Balhae=> Khitan Empire=> Jurchen Jin Dynasty line (in terms of kingdom/dynasty). In terms of ethnic groups, the Goguryeo factor in modern China is from the Sumo Mohe=> Jurchen=> Manchu line. Before this fact is fairly written down into the article, why should we argue about a secondary issue here? -- Jiejunkong 08:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Good friend100 is not interested in accepting solid, irrefutable facts - despite proof presented from both primary and secondary sources. Good friend100 asserts that "Goguryeo ended tributary relations with 'China' by the year 106 CE". His source states the following:
''From 75 BC until about 106 AD the governors of a small military prefecture of the Chinese Han dynasty, named Xuantu, engaged Koguryo leaders in a client relationship...
However, this excerpt ONLY concerns the Han Dynasty. I have provided proof that tributary relations with successive Northern dynasties did not end at Han:
Samguk Sagi (Korean primary source):
Year fifteen (656), summer, fifth month, iron fell like rain. Winter, twelfth month, envoys were sent to Tang to offer congratulations to the imperial crown prince. [42]
And the footnote corresponding to this excerpt states the following:
The Cefu yuangui (CY) 冊府元龜 (book 970) records this as a tribute mission.
Good friend100 ignores this by questioning the validity of primary sources (even though Samguk Sagi is a Korean source):
Again, Wikipedia leans more on other sources than primary sources for articles. And again your interpretation can be different from others. I see that sentence you put as a present to the imperial crown prince (for reasons I do not know why) and that it is "congratulating". (see Good friend100's talk page for more info)
In response, I gave him a secondary source to confirm it:
If you are still not convinced, here's a secondary source to confirm it:
Peace was maintained with the Koguryo after they sent tribute to the Tang in 619 until the Tang vassal state Silla complained that Koguryo and Paekche attacked them in 643. [43]
Despite solid evidence that tribute did not end in 106 CE, Good friend100, continues to assert this false claim into articles. It is almost laughable to see how some Koreans even reject their own historiography, citing these original historical texts as "original research." Can anyone clarify this for Good friend100? Assault11 00:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Goguryeo did NOT pay tribute to China as it grew more powerful because it didn't need to. Consider the wars Goguryeo fought with China. Do you think it is logical or makes sense that Goguryeo would pay tribute to its enemy? I don't think so. Good friend100 23:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll make it clearer in case you start repeating everything again.
Your sources are NOT legitimate because:
I think you should try to understand what I'm saying more throughly. I said that primary sources can be POV and original research. And cut the negative attitude. Good friend100 00:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What did Koreans make up? Kingj123 03:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, the section is really a POV from China. I added several sentences to it. Of course they are sourced. The source clearly says that although China considered Goguryeo to be a tributary state, Goguryeo was NOT a real tributary state because China had no power over the Goguryeo court at all. Good friend100 18:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
GF100 continues to assert that "Tributary relations ended in 106 AD." [46] This is absolutely false. After reading his above reply, I can see that he has no idea what he's talking about. Anyway, those who can talk some sense into him, please do so. Thanks. Assault11 21:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
FYI: According to Britannica, Goguryeo (Koguryo) "had sent tribute regularly" to Tang until about 642.-- Endroit 13:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Sui tributary relations is laughable at best. Its mired with intermittent tributes paid, every few years and then the start of the Sui war which resulted in the complete destruction of the Sui dynasty as a result. Yet after the war was won by Koguryo he sent tributes? Why the intermittent tributes? Either the author translated it wrong or something is wrong with the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 03:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I am sure that the communist governmemnt in China have huge influence towards the education. Kingj123 14:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Communism has nothing to do with this, although the Chinese government probably does have strict rules on education. Good friend100 23:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I can distinquish clearly between Goguryeo's culture from rest of China, there is no doubt. China is debating the obvious.
Also, China is the one who is acting, not Korea. The way you said that South Korea are educating its people makes me laugh. Every country in the world educates its people. But the peoblem is that Chinese education never mentioned of Goguryeo as part of China before communists took over, while Korea taught its people throughout the history.
Kingj123
23:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
What did Koreans make up? Specify. Kingj123 03:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What a lame answer and it is not even specific enough. It is not even in the full sentences. Look, we are debating about one of the strongest kingdoms in Northest Asia.
"fake...fake... history... fake...yeah.. those fake stuffs Koreans made..."
It is shameful, I hope other Chinese people give better reasons than that!
I have a Korean book just about 1 inch thick book about Goguryeo that has sofisticated, metaphorical, meaningful, emotional and widely connected history. I enjoyed it so much that I read over several times and I learned something new eachtime. Not even a single Korean could ever make that up. You should try reading it before you make any comments.
What is a "real" history for Chinese? Did they come with any better and more meaningful histories? Did chinese ever have insperation to make and publish inch thick books that only relates to Goguryeo independantly that have sofisticated, metaphorical, meaningful, emotional and widely connected history?
Also, being part of Chinese history doesn't mean that Goguryeo is nessesarly part of China. That is a false assumption.
Present Manchurian culture and tradition is different than Goguryeo's.
C Castles and fortresses today are exactly the same as the fortresses in Korea.
China is a wonderful country. However, among many present Koreans, my mother's last name is said to be descended from Goguryeo. It breaks my heart when I hear that Goguryeo is Chinese.
China finds Goguryeo just an regional state in China. Goguryeo means more than that to us. Kingj123 03:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
China is certainly not the only enemy for Goguryeo. Kingj123 05:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I will (try to) stay quiet for a while, fixing other articles. Kingj123 16:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
There's no reason to get upset about all this, because the communist propaganda exists equally on both sides. Here's a source describing North Korean Juche ideology, and how they've distorted archaeological and historical studies. North Korea is particularly ridiculed for the manner in which they've "found" Dangun's grave. And North Korea is accused of glorifying Goguryeo, while playing down the significance of Silla. And because of their Juche ideology, North Korea is supposed to be "self-sufficient" enough, and so heaven forbid China had anything to do with "their" Goguryeo history!-- Endroit 00:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ha! Its the Koreans distorting history right? I certainly don't see this in the news.
"North Korea is distorting Chinese history"
Keep in mind that China is distorting history a ton compared to what North Korea does. Good friend100 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The following are reliable and neutral(non-Korean, non-Chinese) sources of expert authorship that have full or limited availability online that covers Goguryeo in some depth.
Entry on Goguryeo in Encyclopedia Britannica
[47]
Entry on Goguryeo in Concise Encyclopedia Britannica
[48]
Entries on Goguryo in Encarta
[49]
Entry on Korea(~540 C.E.) in Encyclopedia of World History
[50]
Entry on Korea(540~918) in Encyclopedia of World History
[51]
Archaeology of Korea by Sarah M. Nelson, Chapter 7(Three Kingdoms AD 300-668)
[52]
State Formation in Korea by Gina L. Barnes, Chapter 1(Early Korean States) page 20
[53]
I'll continue expanding the list, and add relevant text from sources not available online, as time allows.
Cydevil38
00:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are some of my choices for now:
Any others please feel free to contribute suggestions or make comments. WangKon936 03:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the wikipolicy Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, the sources you have listed here are as reliable as any "published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". But I am just curious why you (likely intentionally) didn't include Twenty-Four Histories, Samguk Sagi and similar trustworthy ancient records in the list. My comments are: if any author in your list does not do research based on Twenty-Four Histories, Samguk Sagi and similar trustworthy ancient records, then what remains in such an author's article is merely the person's personal POV with magic evidences.-- Jiejunkong 05:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There are several issues involved, so I'll lay them out as follows:
The above are not the only disputes involved in this article, but those have been the cause of recent revert wars that still go unresolved. Please feel free to comment on other parts of the article that you find problematic. 07:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cydevil38 ( talk • contribs)
The above CyDevil? WangKon936 15:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
My comments / opinions for each point are as follows:
I agree that the "political connections" section should be replaced with cultural connections between Goguryeo and China. I wrote some of this in in the "Culture" section of the article so we don't have to be repetitive. But including buddhism and arts, etc is something everybody can agree on. Good friend100 18:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is an excellent source
Here is a very informative source on Goguryeo culture and has a lot of information on Goguryeo religion, Dongmaek festival, etc.
I hope that this source can be used, since the only things I will be writing about is the culture, which (I hope) is not controversial here.
I'm asking if you think that this source is fair to use for the culture. Good friend100 19:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, as I said, I'm only trying to confirm that we can use this site for the culture ONLY. Its very informative. Good friend100 22:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Commenting that "Silla, which played the most critical role in all wars against Goguryeo" shows how you misunderstand who did what in the Goguryeo wars. Goguryeo fought with all the Chinese dynasties by itself. Silla only came in during the Goguryeo-Tang war.
We are not ignoring the "critical war". We are not excluding Silla, if you read the article. Good friend100 20:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As the section's title is Goguryeo-China Wars, and you put the Goguryeo-Silla War in this section, can we say that you are implying Silla is part of China? Is this a joke, or just a byproduct of some improper writing? -- Jiejunkong 05:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Wangkon's proposed paragraph. Changes in italics:
Yeah, I took out a lot of fluff that didn't really need to be in an intro. The thinking is that the intro should be short, to the point and an effective set up to the rest of the article. Other aspects of Koguryo should be bright out in the body of the article, not necessarily in the intro section. Thoughts? WangKon936 02:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, looks like the main objection I have is from CyDevil. I'll take his verbage and make some minor modifications. Thus the revised intro would look like this:
I'll wait a few days, watch for comments/discussion before making the changes. WangKon936 15:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
"Along with Baekje and Silla, Goguryeo was one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Goguryeo was an active participant in the power struggle for control of the Korean peninsula as well as associated with the foreign affairs of peer polities in China and Japan." Goguryeo wasn't in position of power struggled between other two Korean Kingdoms and China and Japan, where was China and Japan during Goguryeo era? You mean Sui and Tang, and Yamato? Please remove the China and Japan, China and Japan had nothing to do with Goguryeo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Now that we have general concensus regarding the intro, the next logical step is the History Section. It needs to be vastly improved, starting with, but not ending with, the nationalistic tone of the section. An improvement of the sources should be done as well, taking out web links and putting in more established and academic sources. Anyone else like to add to this discussion before work begins? Please discuss suggestions for wholesale changes here first before going out to make said changes. Thanks! WangKon936 15:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Gina Barnes (2001) draws upon and compares over 20 different sources, not just Rhee. It contains valuable comparative analyses of the key sources. Some of Barnes' sources may, of course, be cited directly also. However, I believe it is important to refer to Barnes, to keep our article balanced and NPOV. Here are some other sources cited by Gina Barnes (2001):
-- Endroit 15:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Should be listed as 37 BCE. There is no concensus of scholarship that says Koguryo was around in 2nd century CE. Even in Byington's PhD thesis he say's it's impossible to tell and the only thing we can be fairly certain of is that Koguryo was certainly around at 12 CE, when it was first mentioned in Chinese history books. As a matter of fact, Byington is more certain that the middle of the 1st century BCE is the actual founding date of Koguryo as a tribal leauge with some sort of centralization. I'll put up quotes from Byington this weekend. WangKon936 04:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the true foundation of Koguryo, I advocate, based on evidence forwarded by Mark Byington in his 2003 PhD dissertation on Puyo. In pages 200 to 240, he talks about Koguryo's foundation and comes to the conclusion that it was probably founded well into the 1st century BCE, not the 2nd century BCE, like some, more Korean nationalistic scholars. Some points I've summarized below:
1) There is a lack of textual evidence, be it Chinese or Korean, that state a 2nd century BCE foundation. According to a geographic monograph in the Han Shu the term Koguryo (or Gaoguli) was in use since 113 BCE, however, no references to the Koguryo people (not just a geographic reference as in the Han Shu) was mentioned till 12 CE, when they revolted from Xuantu.
2) Mark Byington accepts Kim Pu Sik's Koguryo foundation date as pretty much "plus or minus several decades" accurate. Per his words in page 233 of his dissertation, "While the dating of the events in the earlier chapters of the Annals [of Koguryo in the Samguk Sagi] is generally untrustworth, most of the events described appear to be misdated by only a few years, perhaps reflecting a later compiler's efforts to create as accurate a chronology as possible given material representing undated but seriallly sequenced events."
3) Byington uses two events to come to a "mid" 1st century foundation of Koguryo. First is the reorganizatinon of Xuautu in 75 BCE in response to increasingly coordinated and aggressive attacks by the Yemaek tribes, one of the forerunners of Koguryo. The second event is recorded in the Han Shu's annals as they relate to the records of Wang Mang, a warlord who had control of Xuantu. In it the Chinese records make their first noteworthy mention of Koguryo as a revolt in 12 CE when Wang Mang attempted to get Koguryo to attack the Xiongnu. Up until then, besides that vauge reference to geography in the Han Shu, Koguryo was not considered a group of people and was most likely confused as one of the many tribes of Yemaek peoples.
The sum of my research would thus state three major points:
1) There is reason to believe that Yemaek tribal groups with some centralization existed in the 2nd century BCE, but there is virtually no evidence to say that a centralized Koguryo state existed amoung these Yemaek tribal groups.
2) If Kim Pu Suk had any Silla bias towards his his dating of the three kingdoms of Korea, it's likely in the retro-dating of Silla and not the false dating of Koguryo and Baekje. Mark Byington (leading Koguryo scholar) never accuses Kim Pu Suk of false dating of Koguryo's foundation date based on a Silla bias and neither does Jonathan Best (leading Baekje scholar).
3) The understanding that Koguryo's history is 700 years old is attested in Chinese, Korean and Japanese ancient sources. The Nihongi itself quotes a lengthy letter where the mother of one of Koguryo's first kings said that the kingdom would only last 700 years (as she interpreted a dream). There is only one passing reference to Koguryo being 900 years old in one Chinese text, but the weight of all sources indicate a 700 year life of said kingdom. Thus the weight of evidence would suggest Koguryo being founded in the middle of the 1st century BCE, as attested to the majority of Korean historiography, however, based on archeological and textual evidience that there was increasing centralization of Yemaek tribes in the 2nd BCE, theories of Koguryo being in existance since the 2nd century should at least be mentioned. WangKon936 02:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I see that there are links to rulers or "Danguns" of GoJoseon in this article. Considering that the list of Danguns is problematic at best, they should be deleted. I will withhold doing so for a few days to get some comments. WangKon936 04:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There are numerous violations of
WP:NCGN in this article.
WP:NCGN states that 'When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it'. Manchuria is an
archaic names which describes the modern geographic region of NE China in the period from 1635 to 1945. In the modern context, that name is called NE China, and should be used instead of Manchuria. Using Manchuria to describe the region out of its relevant historical period of 1635 to 1945 is therefore a violation of
WP:NCGN. Will the editors here please correct the violations.
Wiki Pokemon
03:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
actually, Korea has a longer history with Manchuria (northeast china) than China does. Notable Korean influence is actually quite large in the liaodong area, from archeological finds. It would be most appropriate to withdraw that unsupported and biased claim. Odst 02:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Rules are rules. You cannot change or ignore the rules simply because it doesn't suit you. Cydevil38, Wikimachine and Good friend100, this triad has become a notorious mafia which causes disaster to the articles they touched. Also welcome for any investigation, I don't play sock puppetry.-- Jiejunkong 03:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Stop now. Cease and desist. Any further flaming posts here will be considered trolling as per WP:TROLL and will be reverted and/or slow reverted. This is the Goguryeo talk page. If you wish to engage in infantile bufoonery let me show you the door. Take yur disputes that do not directly relate to this article elsewhere -- anywhere but here. I am speaking to all of those who have posted the above irrelevant messages. All users are reminded that WP:CIVIL is policy, NOT a guideline. Mumun 無文 19:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Is the passage Goguryeo, along with China and Baekje, played a significant part in influencing Japan with their culture. really necessary in the introduction? I don't think it's as important to warrant a place in the introduction. I suggest either taking this passage out or moving it to another section where it is relevant. Cydevil38 14:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I see that Wangkon has taken it out without moving it to another location. Personally, I feel that Goguryeo's influence on Japan, unlike that of Bakeje, was limited and wasn't very significant, so I'm reluctunt to add it again to relevent location(perhaps cultural legacy). If someone disagrees, I suggest re-adding the passage into "Cultural Impact". Cydevil38 22:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
sorry. I thought about that when I added it, but I figured someone else would do it, cause I am too lazy. Odst 00:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
To anonymous user with IP 216.99.99.119: zh.wikisource has all the reliable sources you mentioned. I've spent lots of time to input all canonical sources about 靺鞨 and 高麗(as an abbreviation of Goguryeo before year 918, and as Goryeo after 918), cast me a message if you need more reliable sources on this topic. At zh.wikisource, I was busy at admin and handling 全唐詩 and 宋史. 高麗 is not my main concern.-- Jiejunkong 01:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to link all orginal history text regarding Goguryeo History (from zh.wikisource) to this page. But somehow my links don't work. Could you please tell me how. Thank you.
In Wikipedia, you are supposed to cite secondary or tertiary reliable sources, not primary sources that are centuries old. Also, there's no point in compiling a list of centuries old records in Chinese on a Goguryeo article in an English encyclopedia, is there? Not to mention Samguk sagi is hardly the only Korean record that records Goguryeo. Cydevil38 07:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
To User:Mumum, I deleted your sidekick tag which supports User:Cydevil38's rule-breaking behavior. I posted a message saying that User:Cydevil38 had not participated in related talk at 7:01 UTC in User talk:Nlu, then User:Cydevil38 demonstrated his efficiency by rapidly posting the random message at 7:30 UTC to act as if he involved in the talk. But the message he posted is completely random and I cannot see the relation of his message to the discussion on reliable sources (defined by real wikipolicy). Now several hours have passed and he has not shown the efficiency he typically showed. My worry about his disappearance is genuine and real. This discussion is related to the topic because User:Cydevil38 is employing this hit-and-run strategy to block any edit he dislikes for the Goguryeo article, so this discussion is not unrelated to the article as what you claimed.-- Jiejunkong 11:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Also this section and User talk:Nlu page will become the proof of filing an RFC against User:Cydevil38's denial of authoritative reliable sources. This rule-breaking denial advocated by User:Cydevil38 (with supports from several other POV users) has lasted for months and needs to be settled by wikirules.-- Jiejunkong 12:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38, as I've argued (and I think with sufficiently backed up citations to Wikipedia guidelines), the Chinese official histories are not primary sources as far as Wikipedia's definitions are concerned, except in the context of historiography of those works. -- Nlu ( talk) 15:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm about 80% finished with my edits and will focus my additional major edits on the aforementioned section, which needs A LOT of work. I've renamed it "The Political and Cultural relationship between Goguryeo and the Chinese Central Plains Dynasties" because I believe it is a more accurate reflection of the actual case. I will delete entries such as "...enfoliated as duke of..." and other references to Chinese titles given to Koguryo rulers as it is materially no different from the type of titles that the Chinese dynasties had given to Silla, Baekje or Yamato Japan and hence, doesn't really give much meaningful information. Instead, it will summarize Koguryo relationships with the various Chinese dynasties as well as the impact sinofication had on Koguryo. WangKon936 04:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Please excuse my slow clean-up and revision of the article. I'm going through it, but there is ALOT of work that needs to be done. ALOT of needless detail and overtly nationalistic verbage in this article make it of little use to people who want to do research and learn an objective view of this kingdom. Please be patient. Thanks! If you have any suggestions, please let me know! WangKon936 02:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been following the debate as closely as I should have. Is it possible to compromise and use the Korean pronunciations, particularly the "McCune-Reischauer" style given that South and North Korea are not in agreement regarding the Revised Romanization and put the Pinyin in parenthesis, particularly with place names that are currently in PRC territory? WangKon936 16:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a directly related wikipolicy Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) for phrases and sentences written in Chinese language. 丸都 is written in (classic) Chinese language and hence covered by this wikipolicy.-- Jiejunkong 08:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This aritcle is for English speakers, not Korean or Chinese speakers. Hence, the common romanization in reliable English publications should be used in the benefit of English readers of this article. Absolute majority of reliable English publications, including the major encyclopedias, recognize Goguryeo as a Korean entity and consistently use Korean romanization. In case of Hwando(Chinese:Wandu), Google books search results in 20 hits for Hwando [66] and 3 hits for Wandu [67]. 2 of 3 hits for Wandu are in fact false positives. Jiejunkong should start to realize that these articles in the English Wikipedia are for English readers who are interested in the subject, not Chinese nationalists who want Goguryeo to become Chinese. Cydevil38 02:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Nope, It didn't break any conventions as far as I am aware... It's just that it makes much more sense to Romanize it the Korean way. By the way, 城 is not city. It is fortress. 城 is sometimes used to mention a fortified city or town, but its technical meaning is Fortress. 丸都山城 is not today's name. It was always known as 丸都山城 , but it was referred to colloquially as 丸都城. Odst 00:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Different romanization systems do cause some problems. There are Wade-Giles and Pinyin romanization systems for Chinese, and there are McCune-Reischauer and Revised romanization for Korean. Typically, these 4 systems produce 4 different spellings. I wonder if the administration team wants to define a clearer rule on which one(s) to use. (1) At least for the Chinese language, Pinyin is replacing Wade-Giles because the latter one doesn't represent the "correct" pronunciation (it was more convenient for Westerners to pronounce, but the pronunciation is not Chinese). (2) I guess that most Chinese users have no idea how Korean romanizations work, and vice versa (Korean users have no idea how Pinyin works). Because Goryeo used Chinese as the written language until the 15th century when King Sejong invented Hangul, all historical entities before the 15th century were presented in the (classic) Chinese characters. This phenomenon demands a balanced solution for both Chinese readers and Korean readers to understand the romanization forms of the historical entities.-- Jiejunkong 23:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I have initiated a relevant talk at Wikipedia_talk:Translation#Romanization_of_Chinese_characters. Welcome for speaking out your opinion.-- Jiejunkong 00:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Odst 00:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
discussed before? uh huh, with you quietly evading much of it. Maybe we should romanize every single historical entity in Wikiproject Korea into Pinyin. Oh wait, maybe we can also Romanize all the Kanji words in the Japanese articles into Pinyin. Hell, why don't you just go ahead and move this article to Goagouli, since they are Chinese characters? Odst 01:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
oops, I forgot to type in a period. I will fix it now. but even with that little typo, you seem to have trouble comprehending American English, because again, you are missing the point. I'm not sure what it is, whether you do not understand or pretend not to understand, but you are pissing me off with your **** ** ****** ***** ( I censored it, because it may count as a personal attack). WHAT???? I DIDNT REMOVE PINYIN! WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? I don't think Goguryeo makes sense to Chinese readers either... you might as well change that, too...(sarcasm) Odst 01:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
again...why don't you actually address the points properly, rather rambling on about Chinese Romanization and such? it's really annoying... Odst 02:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't care what you guys say b/c I'm not going to repeat after Odst - I completely agree with him - and that's why I don't need to participate in the discussion. Who cares, at the end of the day, you have no consensus, and that means the article remains in the original form. You guys love all that Wikipedia policies & crappy/conflicting conventions so much, well here's a law that you'll all like and that is without consensus no change. Good day to y'all. Wikimachine 21:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me also tell you guys, probably the only way for you to check that what you're doing is sensible is by doing Rfc. And I promise you your crappy idea will be rejected completely. ( Wikimachine 21:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me add, Wangkon's version is probably a compromisory attempt at Jiejunkong's proposal. However, there is no consensus either for the compromise or Jiejunkong's version so no change. Got it? Also, I think that the mountain should be named Wandu, but the fortress should remain as Hwando. Jiejunkong made too many weasel wordings and unnecessary statements just to emphasize the fact that it's located in the Wandu mountain in the Jilin crappy whatever. I think that my version is the most sound, with most focus on the info's only & good flow in English. Wikimachine 22:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Wikimachine. Besides, Jiejenkong still hasn't given a good reason for Hwando to be romanized as Wandu. Whining and reverting won't really help at all, because I'll be there to revert it back. :P Odst 22:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikimachine is making things up. Wangkon first edited independently on 12 Aug. I doubt he make a compromise with Jiejenkong for that original version. Either way, that is the original version. That version was immediately changed unilaterally by Cydevil just hours later to replace Wandu with Hwando, and started the revert war. Jiejenkong reverted but compromised to allow Cydevil addition of Hwando. Wikimachine then mentioned we should stick to the version before the edit war, but he now back tracked, and made a totally unilateral version which suit himself. Whatever happen, seek a consensus before making changes to the original version. Remember that the first provocation comes from the revert of the original version. Wiki Pokemon 00:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
nevertheless, it would be stupid to romanize the fortress in Pinyin... Note how history is written in books and other sources. Odst 00:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand, but I still don't approve of what happened. Nlu stuck in Wandu just for the purpose of providing info & b/c he didn't get the Korean romanizations, etc. But since this is within Korean context, Wandu should be mentioned once or twice for the plain purpose of informing the readers with some connectible concepts/names..... not that ridiculous amount of repetition and wandu/hwando for some propaganda. ( Wikimachine 16:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC))
Where is the source for this?
Dae Jung-sang and his son Dae Joyeong, both former Goguryeo generals, regained most of Goguryeo's northern land after its downfall in 668, established the kingdom "Later Goguryeo". Later Goguryeo was renamed Great Jin, and eventually Balhae after the death of Dae Jung-sang.
I am not sure if Dae Jung named the kingdom "Later Goguryeo" first. I always thought it was Dae Jin, then Parhae. WangKon936 19:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, I think that passage is incorrect. My sources show no metion of Dae Jungsang participating in the creation of Goguryeo, But I know for sure Dae jo yoeng did. Later Goguryeo was formed by some monk dude waaaaay after Balhae was formed. Odst 23:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
he wasn't involved with the formation of Pohai... Odst 00:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I can understand why some people call Goguryeo as chinese area, but it should note that without consulting Korean government, chinese government is doing and destroying Goguryeo artifacts, and blocking access of Korean visting to the site or artifacts. Also, it tries to force in historian with its military power that Goguryeo is puppet of Chinese main country. Question comes, then, why Goguryeo fought against chinese multiple times? This clearly indicates that Goguryeo is not puppet of main-land chinese territory. Also, also, there is evidence that Parts of Manchuria was choson's land, but when Japan took that, and after liberation, the foreign country decided to give it to chinese without consulting Kor. Government similar to what of Dokto is. If you want to give me evidences, I'll give that next month. (since i only go to wikipedia for once a month) Conclusion:Therefore Goguryeo is not chinese territory. Also, you need to release block, because front image of template of preventing access is broken. Thanks for hearing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.108.120.26 ( talk) 02:05:11, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
The above unsigned comment was not written by me. I would assume any comments not signed by myself, but written in a similar style, to have been written by someone else. WangKon936 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Just saying that it is not POV or not might be backed by number of people. It seems that there are much chinese users than Korean users, so rather than just doing surveys, listing references help. It is just opinion, don't criticize me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.108.120.26 ( talk) 02:07:05, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
yo, that aint wangkon...Wangkon is at least proficient in his language. this guy aint wangok... probably some nutty Korean kid that came to the US recently. >< Odst 00:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The above unsigned comment was not written by me. I would assume any comments not signed by myself, but written in a similar style, to have been written by someone else. WangKon936 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There are many things that is capitalized but shouldn't capitalzed and with some grammar mistakes. Such thing is "In November 668 Bojang, the last king of Goguryeo, Surrendered to Tang Gaozhong." {{ editprotected}}
I'm Korean.
I think Goguryeo, Balhae is not completely Korean history.Dongmyeongseong and Go, even though the myth says differently, were probably half-Mohe half-Buyeo descent, everything points to that. Adding to that, as both were mostly manchurian, I guess that not all of Goguryeo's histgory should be Korean. I say again: I'm Korean. Kfc1864 talk my edits 09:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not Korean.
Hardyandtiny
--Removed-- Pro-Japanese nationalist statement, no credibility what so ever.
Wayne, I'd like to refer you to this compilation of research on the Koguryo language, which may be of great interest to you:
http://www.historyfoundation.or.kr/Data/DataGarden/Journal(02-2)(2).pdf]
It's a special volume of Journal of Inner and East Asian Studies that focuses on the Koguryo language, where some prominent linguists of Northeast Asian languages have contributed. You can also find a paper by Beckwith, the main proponent of Koguryo-language-was-Japonic-but-not-Korean theory. It's a huge download(about 50mb), but it's well worth it.
On the particular topic on whether Koguryo language was Korean or Japonic, this journal volume has three articles. They are as follows:
It seems that all four agree that at some point in time people spoke Japonic on the Korean peninsula. The contention remains on which part of the Korean peninsula spoke the Japonic language and which part spoke the Korean language. It is my understanding that Beckwith believes that people on the Korean peninsula spoke Japonic with the exception of southeastern part of the Korean peninsula. Korean would spread throughout the Korean peninsula as a consequence of Silla's expansion. Janhuen believes the linguistic situation was quite diverse, people on the western coasts of the Korean peninsula possibly speaking Japonic, those in the southeastern part of the Korean peninsula speaking Korean, and argue that the language of the ruling class of Koguryo was either Tungusic or Paleo-Siberian(in his words, "Amuric"). Unger and Vovin, on the other hand, argue that although Japonic languages were spoken on the southern part of the Korean peninsula, all the three kingdoms, Goguryeo, Baekje and Silla, spoke different dialects of the same language, Old Korean, by the time of the Three Kingdoms of Korea period.
The current situation in the academia seems that the discussion is still on-going and inconclusive whether Koguryo was Japonic or Korean, or even Tungusic or Paleo-Siberian, so we'll have to give it more time for further development in the academic discussions. Cydevil38 06:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
What the hell are you talking about? I have taken 2 east asian history courses and there were absolutely no mention of Goguryeo being Japanese. Thats about the dumbest thing i've ever heard of. What is being taught is the complete opposite, Korean kingdoms migrated to Japan instilling many things such as religion, civilization and the Yakuza eventually. This nothing more than the Japanese trying to save face from its obvious subordinate position in East Asian history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 03:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
(The century infos are different from source to source over the net.)
Hello, I think these pictures could be useful to update the article if you added more info regarding Goguryeo people's habits and pastime like ssireum and Korean tea. The pictures I found from internet were originally for hanbok, but I'm ignorant of Goguryeo history and this article looks controversial. Therefore, I leave this piece here. Good luck. -- Appletrees 23:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Its pitiful that the Chinese have no honor about history. They'll gladly change whatever they need to maintain healthy self-esteem. The sad part about all this is the Chinese reliance on ancient history. I know alot of people from different races and only the Japanese and Chinese have this desperate reliance to keep face. It may or may not stem from being genetically inferior in terms of looks and the fact that most of them are super nerds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 04:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Brave commentor who has not included a sign name... How equally "pitiful." WangKon936 ( talk) 20:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have problem with signing my user ID, I've tried but can't signed. Need some help here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
King Mobon was the last of the Hae line. Did Jumong actually carry the surname Ko? It seems king Kwanggaeto wanted to show that he is in fact the direct descendant of Jumong so abruptly changed his surname to legitimize Ko rule.
What exactly is the Kyeru lineage? Were there different sects within the Ko house? Kuebie ( talk) 20:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Why remove the note on the top: This is about the state founded in northeastern Asia named Gaogouli or Goguryeo (高句麗). For the county named Gaogouli or Goguryeo (高句麗縣) founded by Han Dynasty, see Gaogouli County - Dicting ( talk) 18:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Kuebie, Why did you remove the following two:
Why? For the latter, The name of the article uses Goguryeo, the Korean pronounciation of 高句麗, instead of Gaogouli, the Chinese pronounciation of 高句麗, is already a big concession to Korean for Chinese. You Koreans have never say thanks to us for this, instead, you eaven oppose us to add our pronounciation Gaogouli as a paratactic name. I see that You korean is just 得寸進尺(Give you an inch and you will take a mile). - Dicting ( talk) 20:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the English Wikipedia, where common names in English are used. The common English name of Goguryeo is Koguryo, but Goguryeo is used per naming convention that revised romanization is to be used. Also, the Chinese pronounciation of Gaogouli is provided in the name box. Cydevil38 ( talk) 08:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Now Koreans always remove the above content I added, and yet they havn't privded the reason (say nothing of sufficient reason ) why they do so. How to solve the conflict? Just now I read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, and I think in the first step it's a good idea to seek Wikipedia:Third opinion, and I'd like to launch one. - Dicting ( talk) 03:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I am responding to a request for a third opinion.
The disambiguation note that is being disputed links to a page named Xuantu Commandery, which only makes a minor reference to Gaogouli County in the article's final sentence. In my opinion, such a note does not help Wikipedia readers, therefore it is not needed. Truthanado ( talk) 00:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
There was a big Gaogouli state, and there was a small Gaogouli county. It indicates the high possibility that the later Gaogouli state regarded the area of Gaogouli county as the core area of Gaogouli. - Dicting ( talk) 19:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Right now I searched and read some parts of some history books. And now I get to know that during Han Dynasty, the administration of Gaogouli State was assigned to Gaogouli County. In the Han Pingdi era, Han Dynasty altogether had 241 states including Gaogouli States. Those states and their near county has similar relationships. - Dicting ( talk) 07:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
And also Gaogouli(高句麗) = Xiagouli(下句麗). Gao (高, high) and Xia (下, down) are only adjective. When Wang Mang became angry with Gouli peolple, he changed the name of Gaogouli to Xiagouli, just like Shangyintai (上殷台, 上/Shang means up) was renamed to Xiayintai (下殷台, 下/Xia means down). - Dicting ( talk) 07:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Goodfriend100 you would agree Korean ever occupied the whole east coast of China?
Time of flight—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.232.59 ( talk • contribs)
--Removed-- personal opinions.
Don't avoid my question and answer it. Why don't you delete text that are sourced from [3], which is a POV site (since it is Korean)? I don't understand why you are rejecting sources that don't agree with you, but leave POV sources that agree with you alone. Its almost ridiculous, Endroit, when you claim your not on either side but leave POV sources that support China alone.
I agree that my.goguryeo.com is a POV source. Good friend100 12:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
You clearly do not understand english. I just answered your question above your last comment. Good friend100 15:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR and also WP:V. The sources you have used may be original research and can be interpreted in different ways, which violates Wikipedia policy. It can also violate WP:NPOV. The fact that the source you have used is in Chinese, and since most of the editors here cannot read Chinese, those sources cannot be verifiable.
You are violating several Wikipedia policies. Good friend100 03:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow, alot happens when you are busy over a weekend! I also agree that mygoguryeo.com is certainly not a NPOV site and things on the web site should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, why so much verbage on Balhae here? We are not discussing the Balhae article. Are we using Parhae to map the geneology of Koguryo? Is that the rationale? WangKon936 04:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
--Removed-- This is from Chinese nationalists, so I removed. History should be history, not to be used as pride.
Chinapride and Chinesepride... sockpuppets? There seems to be an increased infultration of sockpuppets here as of late, these two I've pointed out not being the least of them. WangKon936 23:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Goguryeo-China Wars" is a blatantly pro-Korean POV title. It is very funny that when a Chinese polity (such as the Yan state of the 16 Kingdoms) is a formative part of Goguryeo, there is no mention of the words China or Chinese; but when a Chinese polity is responsible for going to war against Goguryeo, it is suddenly labeled Chinese and of China (such as the case for "Goguryeo-China Wars"). Furthermore, the obvious POV and siege mentality of some of the editors here against more objective edits is truly laughable. -- Naus 02:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Caveat added According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources, "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." I am obliged to make it clear that I currently don't have any problem with Dr. Mark Byington's trustworthiness. I also think that Dr. Mark Byington may not know that somebody here has disseminated false information about his career, and has used his casual email messages as reliable sources. The related arguments are about two general problems, ie., the authoritativity of a post-doc fellow in a field (does post-doc fellowship imply authoritativity?) and using email messages as published materials with a reliable publication process. These arguments are by no means personal against Dr. Byington himself (And it is impolite to Dr. Byington if the arguments become personal). I apologize if my remarks have implied any impoliteness, and this apology is all about politeness issues, but not truth or fallacy issues. BTW, to User:Good friend100, don't you think you should make an apology to Dr. Byington because of the false information you broadcast again and again?-- Jiejunkong 02:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Mark Byington iswas a post-doc in Harvard University. I don't think we can call him a prominent figure in research when he wrote the argued email. And if his email is used as reference, this kind of documents without any peer review are not considered as reliable sources. For example,
Wikisource refuses to accept such modern documents without peer reviews.--
Jiejunkong
05:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought he has published a research paper about this controversy. Now I know it is just an email. Good thing we have not had cited sources coming from comic books or TV dramas. Wiki Pokemon 05:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Just an attempt to not use reliable sources which he knows are correct. No easy way to reject a Harvard professor is there? Hahaha. Good friend100 16:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Come now, everyone. Let me appeal to your sense of caution and common sense. What good will come of this conversation thread? It is irrelevant and unseemly to be discussing a flesh-and-blood individual in this way. All that stuff that we learned from our parents about manners and good behaviour apply in any situation that we find ourselves, no? Let's wrap this up and address issues in the article in a more direct way, shall we? ^-^ Mumun 無文 20:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Mark Byington's June 2002(as a Harvard University) paper titled "The Creation of an Ancient Minority Nationality: Koguryo in Chinese Historiography" was published in the First World Congress of Korean Studies. He also had seminars about East Asian Archeology Seminar at Harvard University in March 21, 1997 titled "Castles of the Archer Kings: Ruins of the Early Korean State of Koguryo in Northeast China".--kwayzguy
The message of his email was informal, but portrayed a concise view about the current Northeast Project that the CCP finances. His message was based upon his views from personal fieldwork and references of many peer-reviewed papers. His articles says the same thing, but in a more scholarly manner.--kwayzguy
A person like Mark Byington has the advanced degrees and the years of meticulous research and publications. You can't easily throw an "off-the-record" email as "non-sense". A personal opinion must stem from some sort of an idea or construct to shape his view about the Koguryo "debate". Korean historians and non-Korean historians would have come across his articles even before this issue exploded to this proportion. I do not know the actual rules, but he's a historian and his opinion whether "off-the-record" or not has credibility. This is a debate should be about the issues not about the person. Don't attack someone or his opinion because it seems "dubious". ---kwayzguy
The email that was posted within the site was an international, English language, non-partisan, moderated electronic discussion group. It adheres to strict academic standards. The point of this international electronic forum is to provide Korean specialists to discuss and communicate about theories, tools of analysis, and etc. It functions similarly to a seminar, but more accessible. The forum is open only to those with a serious academic commitment to Korean studies. Any messages without any serious scholarly debate is deleted. Mark Byington is a trustworthy person because he is a serious historian dedicated to Korean studies with name recognition within Korean studies groups. He has also been involved with Korean studies at least since the late 1990s. The moderators of this site are established Korean specialists. You have specialists such as Gari Leyard, J.C. Jamieson, Ruediger Frank, Andrei Lankov, and more. So how does Mark Byington's email become "dubious" and not "reliable" because its an email. It's group of Korean specialists discussing a topic on this site and Mark Byington posted his academic view.----kwayzguy
First, I don't know who you are and why didn't you sign your user name here. I don't care whether you are a big name or a small name, or your profession is the president of United States of America or whatsoever. Wikipedia has rules, and if the rules say that something fails to be qualified as reliable source, then it is not a reliable source. Here is a quote from wikipolicy Wikipedia:Reliable Sources:"Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Email messages already failed the 1st criteria "published materials with a reliable publication process". Thus even if you are arguing that the author is trustworthy or authoritative, it doesn't qualify. Even for trustworthy or authoritative sources, you need to quote credible published materials with a reliable publication process, not some smalltalk style messages with no responsibility held against the talker.-- Jiejunkong 04:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Hostile reverts from Users Cydevil38, Good friend100, and 219.253.79.115 (of Seoul, KR) have been preventing any legitimate good faith edits to restore some semblance of balance and objectivity to this article. These actions are absolutely despicable. That the Wikipedia community have allowed these three trolls to continue their agenda for so long here reflects a serious attack on the spirit of Wikipedia and a failure on its private mediation that does not appear to exist. -- JakeLM 18:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy allows anyone to make edits. Do not worry too much about biased edits, it will be corrected eventually. The more biased the edit, the more resistece it will encounter. This is how Wikipedia works, it will automatically balanced itself. Simply put, good editors will prevail over bad editors. But it takes time and vigilance against bad editors with their bad edits.
Wiki Pokemon
18:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course I will! Check [ [7]]. Good friend100 20:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mark Byington quote: "current practice in the PRC" in describing "a very vaguely defined greater Chinese nation of the remote past," and that their position is "one that must exist in order to fall into line with current Chinese views of the Chinese past"
First of all, the current Chinese view of the Chinese past certainly has not been a practice limited to the PRC (to suggest that the PRC invented this concept is simply trying to disguise China-bashing with PRC-bashing). The current interpretation of Chinese history has been in existence since at least the 1800s under the Qing Dynasty and was one widely acknowledged by Western countries (See late 19th century American map of China on the right. The Qing Dynasty was called the "Chinese Empire" even though it was ruled by Manchus). During the late Qing Dynasty, the concept of being Chinese overlaped ethnic boundaries such as Manchu, Tatar or Han. The ROC and PRC directly inherited the legacy of the Qing Dynasty, not that of the Han Dynasty. And the history of the Qing Dynasty is intimately linked with the history of Manchuria. -- JakeLM 22:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems like that because almost no other countries or historians agree with the Chinese viewpoint. What makes people angry is not that Goguryeo is part of Chinese history (this is obviously true), but how China is simply making a claim that Goguryeo was Chinese. People view this as intruding into other people's own history.
I removed the "email" source from the article. And english sources (yes, western sources), are accepted because this is the english wikipedia and the sources can be verified since people that edit here are english speakers.
I disagree with both Chinese and Korean primary sources. I don't think I have ever endorsed Korean canonical sources nor do I have access to them. I disagree with them because they can be interpreted differently and can be original research. Good friend100 20:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have been thinking about some "technical problem" of the article. THe article seems to have proper citation from various sources. But unless one looks carefully at the citation, the reader might not know that many of the sources are of poor quality. Some editors obviously have been exploiting this obscure loop hole, citing POV sources to make their edits look more legitimate, and hoping that the reader might not find out the dubious sources. A reader might thus be "cheated" in this way, thinking that the arcticle is sound because it has been backed up by what they thought are good sources.
One way to close this loop hole, is to put all cited sources into objective categories like (1) Published Researched Papers (2) Conical Historical Records (3) Newspaper and Magazine Articles (4) Partiotic Websites (5) Emails and Internet Forums (6) Other Sources etc. All edits need to be properly cited and other editors will then categorise the sources according to above. This way a reader will easily judge the "strength" of this article by seeing the legitimacy of the sources cited.
There is technical problem to be solved first though. The current "ref" and "reference" tags do not allow categorization. We need a new "tool". I am think about extending those tags to allow categorization capability. I think such a "tool" will help to improve articles (not just this very controversial one) I think, by letting user knows which sources are good or bad. Does any editors out there know how this could be done, or even possible? I am not familiar with Wikimedia, PHP or OpenSource, but I am willing to get involved with this project with some help from others. Are there any editors willing to help out with this?
Wiki Pokemon
04:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The idea to categorize references is not from me. It is from another editor here which I thought is an excellent idea. He did it manually which is tedious and I feel that many editors will not take the effort to do. To make other editors do this I thought we need a tool as easy to use as the current "ref" and "reference". I am just suggesting to modify "ref" and "reference" tags to add categorization capability, so that editors will be willing to do this. Like I say we need lots of technical expertise in Wikimedia, PHP and OpenSource to make this possible. I cannot do it alone, I need help from others. Anyone who would like to help can contact me on my talk page.
Wiki Pokemon
19:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I volunteered too quickly to do this. I need to learn from scratch PHP, the working of Wikimedia and OpenSource, plus getting access to the projects and testing ...etc. I don't have that much spare energy. But I have checked out Template:Harvard citation and Harvard referencing, and it looks like it can meet our need. If nobody object we can go ahead and change citation to Harvard style, "ref" should be used purely for footnote only. I urge all editors not to object because this will make the article better. As for categories we can start with these
Feel free to make suggestions.
Wiki Pokemon
05:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There have been some changes since my first revisions to the intro paragraph and I wanted to go through them with participants and see what people think.
"Two thirds lying in China"
Should be taken out. Why? This supports a Chinese POV. Koreans can equality say that Koguryo covered two thirds of the Korean peninsula. It's only fair that we add both statements. However, given that the intro is getting unwieldy as it is, let's just keep it simple and say that the kingdom was in both Korea and Southern Manchuria, as we had always had a consensus to say.
"Many Chinese scholars consider Goguryeo an important regional power which had maintained century-long tributary relationship to China and was heavily influenced by Chinese culture, thus should also be considered as part of Chinese history."
I'm not sure if there is a consensus of Chinese scholars who believe this in it's entirety. I think it's Chinese scholars who are more tied to the Northeast Asian project who would adhere to this. If this is true, then it should be reflected as such. Furthermore, it's not likely that Chinese scholars of the Chinese Diaspora (particularly in Singapore and Taiwan) believe this either. Thus, it should, at the very least, mention that it is Chinese scholars who are within the borders of the PRC who hold to these set of beliefs, or it should be toned down.
"However, most international scholars agree that Goguryeo was the most powerful kingdom of the Three Kingdoms of Korea[citation needed]."
There is no consensus of international scholars who believe this so it should be taken off.
"It was an active participant in the power struggle between the Three Kingdoms of Korea as well as the foreign affairs of associated polities in China and Japan."
This is entirely true. Many references to Koguryo (or rather Koryo) in the Nihongi.
You know what. All the little edits in the intro paragraph by both Korean and Chinese ultra nationalists are rather childish and unprofessional. For anyone who comes to Wiki to actually want to LEARN about this important Asian kingdom are probably confused by reading this terrible intro.
WangKon936
05:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Chinese scholars and Korean scholars believe Korean-Manchurian or Manchurian Korean descent population numbers around 107,430,000 millions. They are scattered around North East China or China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonjj ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a question I have tried to answer to see what the conscensus of Chinese scholars believe on the matter of Koguryo. This is complicated by the fact that much of what Chinese scholars believe is locked in Chinese language materials. Furthermore, what the Chinese believe regarding Koguryo is diverse and varies within and without the borders of the PRC. Some Chinese scholars believe that Koguryo falls within their histiography and others do not. What prompted my question is when I ran across the following article: http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?bicode=060000&biid=2007052973068
The Dong A-Ilbo states that:
I believe extensive rewrites to this article are necessary. However, there appears to be diversity within the PRC borders as well as to how to view Koguryo. We should get to the bottom of what these diverse ideas are, not only in the PRC proper, but also (if possible) in Taiwan, Singapore and the Chinese Diaspora. WangKon936 15:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it'd be wise to choose several reliable NPOV sources on Goguryeo, such as those done by Rhee, Nelson, Gardiner, Barnes and Byington, to do some rewriting. Cydevil38 10:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the definition of reliable source from Wikipedia:Reliable Sources: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." For a counterexample, E-mail messages obviously fail the criteria "with a reliable publication process". They are not reliable.-- Jiejunkong 03:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Recently, there has been an increasing number of vandals on this article [8] [9], as well as those relating to it. Some of these new trolls have adopted incredibly obscure usernames denoting their allegiances/nationality, and a significant portion of these new breed of vandals/trolls are "Chinese." Common tactics employed by these new trolls include (but not limited to): 1) Harassment of Korean user/talk pages [10] [11] 2) Persistent blanking of disputed articles [12] 3) Persistent showing of support for Chinese editors involved in the disputed articles [13] [14] 4) Involvement in disputed articles involving Koreans, but not Chinese [15] [16] 5) Awarding administrators who've taken action against a particular individual/group [17] [18].
Despite this, I have reason to believe that many of these new trolls are in fact, not Chinese. After a bit of searching, a few sites became suspect. I won't point fingers at anyone or accuse any particular group, judge for yourself (URL to a popular Korean MMORPG message board):
If true, what this user did is wrong. However, pointing fingers solves nothing. Let's move on fellas. WangKon936 03:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
1) help out with anti-Wikipedia campaign
2) Why Wikipedia is so fuc*ked up
3) WHERE IS MY 100K JSTAR1??????? [19]
Regards,
Assault11 01:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If true, what this user did is wrong. However, pointing fingers solves nothing. Let's move on fellas. WangKon936 03:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It's an abuse of wikipedia editing rights.-- Jiejunkong 08:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
While I don't agree with the means, I whole heartedly agree with the motives. This Goguryeo article really shows Wikipedia's limits in presenting a fair, reliable source of information. Cydevil38 10:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Who will be interesting in distortion of Korean history other than Chinese and Japanese trolls? Vast majority of Anti-Korean trolls are in fact Japanese and Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 09:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Assault11 persists on changing History of Manchuria to History of Northeast China. If this kind of reversion conitnues, the History of Manchuria template should be left out of this article. It's a controversial template in the first place anyways. Cydevil38 10:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Assault11, the template MUST be moved to northeast china. We have already discussed this and it is not fair for nationalists to manipulate wikipedia. Zhang123 18:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38, you participated in the discussions with only one thing in mind - bringing up irrelevant topics into the discussion [22] and making ad hominem attacks against those have different viewpoints than you [23] [24].
I have made many attempts to discuss with you on these matters. You did not reciprocate, now who's fault is that? I asked many questions regarding the historical usage of Manchuria, yet you didn't utter a single word. If you are incompetent in NE Chinese history (as you stated yourself [25]), that is not my problem. You chose to not be involved in the discussion process. If you think my points are "pointless," then that's too bad. As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to alter what has been agreed upon. Assault11 21:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm getting really sick of this repetitive "discussion" with Assault11, so I'll simply provide the "evidence" that they've attempted to use to prove my point that they were only eluding the main argument and continues to push for a POV that has little support from evidence. This is the evidence that Wikipokemon attempted to use:
[26] Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[27] Encarta Dictionary
[28] American Heritage Dictionary
[29] Collins Dictionary
[30] Answer.com
[31] Columbia Encyclopedia
[32] Britannica Encyclopedia
[33] Worldbook Encyclopedia
[34] UK Encarta Encyclopedia
[35] Catholic Encyclopedia
[36] Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
[37] AncientWorld.net
[38] Nuttall Encyclopedia
All of those are entries on "Manchuria", with the exception of Encarta. This is final and irrefutable without contradictory evidence. Cydevil38 00:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
THE MANCHURIA TEMPLATE SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS: 1. If the reasoning is that Korea's Goguryeo and China's Manchuria overlap, then it's only fair to add a Korean template to the Manchuria Wikipedia article. 2. This is blatant Sinocentrism. The Manchuria template casts an image that China's land and influence exceeds it's current boundaries without any unbiased evidence. China's expansionist agenda is becoming quite apparent. The usurpation of Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and the violent approach China has with Taiwan should cast suspicion to China's new "claim" that Goguryeo was just another Chinese kingdom. Would we accept Nazi Germany's claims that France, Poland, and other parts of Western Europe were in fact larger territories of Germany? 3. To look at this problem from another angle, let's look at the Greece and Italy/Rome Wikipedia articles. Greek and Italian/Roman exchanges are quite notable. Yet there are no Greek templates in Italian/Roman articles. Why? Because of the controversial nature of it's insertion.
To maintain Wikipedia's democratic nature and it's precision, I hope the Wikipedians out there will seriously consider this argument. Scholars from Harvard to the University of California, as well European scholars, all maintain the questionable nature and the suspicion of China's assertions and the ramifications that their assertions entail. Although a template, it can be seen as a small step to fighting imperialism and preserving fairness and accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.170.97.196 ( talk) 19:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Where is the proof that the content of "Political Connections between Goguryeo and the Chinese Central Plains Dynasties" was made by Wei Cuncheng himself? I recall seeing the source for it, but nothing in the short summary suggested that this was the work of the person in question. Assault11 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I dispute how information from the primary sources are being interpreted. Tributary relations in the past were a means to commit to trade and diplomacy. The source that the writer referred to was Wei Cunchung, an active participant of the Northeast Project whose POV is very biased and controversial. Hence, the readers should be informed of where that segment came from. Cydevil38 23:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the inital insertion of the segment: [40], where it is clearly shown that the reference material is a work of Wei Cunchung. Cydevil38 00:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The current segment on "Political connections between Goguryeo and Central Plains dynasties", based on a work by a Northeast Project participant, is certainly unacceptable by NPOV and factual accuracy standards, but I wouldn't mind pointing out that Goguryeo did engage in tributary relations. However, this should be presented under a section that covers overall diplomatic relations of Goguryeo, and point out that other non-Chinese states, such as Bakje, Shilla and Japan(Wa) have also engaged in this tributary relationship. As for what tributary relationship is, I think tribute presents good information on this for the readers. Cydevil38 00:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
In an interview with the Korean press, I think Kenneth Gardiner provided a very balanced view on the relations bewteen Goguryeo and China: 후한(後漢) 시대 대부분의 기간 동안 고구려는 전한 시대에 유지했던 종속적 동맹국 지위에서 결별한 양상을 보였으며 동북아시아에 있어 중국의 패권에 도전하는 주요 세력으로 점차 부상했다. 더불어 고구려가 늘 중국의 세가 약해진 시기를 이용했다는 사실도 특기할 만하다. 중국이 강성하고 통일상태에 있을 때에는 저자세를 견지했다. 이런 점에서 볼 때 고구려 왕들도 중국 변방의 여느 국가의 왕들과 별반 다르지 않았다. 기실 북부 베트남은 여전히 중화제국의 일부분으로 남았으며 9세기 당 왕조가 몰락할 때까지 그 상태를 유지했다.
고구려의 왕들은 국내에서 자신들의 권위를 높이기 위해 중국 조정의 책봉을 받아들였다. 전기 고구려의 왕위는 부족 간에 오고 갔으며 특정 부족(예를 들면 계루부) 출신의 왕이 책봉을 받은 경우 이는 그 부족의 권위를 높이는 데에 보탬이 됐다.”
For most of the Later Han Dynasty era, Goguryeo veered away from the subordinate alliance it maintained with Former Han Dynasty and gradually rose as a main power challenging China's hegemony in Northeast Asia. It's also an interesting fact that when China became weak, Goguryeo often used this as an opportunity. When China was strong and unified, Goguryeo maintained low status. In this respect, Goguryeo kings were not very different from kings of other states bordering China. The fact is that northern Vietnam remained a part of the Chinese empire, and this status was maintained until the fall of Tang Dynasty in the 9th century.
Goguryeo kings accepted investitures from the Chinese government to enhance their own domestic authority. The throne of early Goguryeo was exchanged bewteen tribes, and when a king from a particular tribe(such as Gyeru tribe) recieved investiture, it greatly helped in enhancing the authority of that tribe. [41] I'd appreciate it if someone else could verify this translation. Cydevil38 01:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't participated in this argument about "Tributary Relations". Now let me try to offer my view as an observer. My personal opinion is that this tributary argument is not the core part of this article. In those " Twenty-Four Histories" books before Jurchen Jin Dynasty, the authoritative authors treated Goguryeo as a foreign state, sometimes with tributory relation, but sometimes without. It is valid to say that Han Chinese people before year 1115 had nearly nothing to do with Goguryeo, except some rare exceptions like the famous Tang General Gao Xianzhi (Go Seonji), who was from a Goguryeo noble family. Therefore, the Goguryeo factor in modern China is nearly all from the Goguryeo-> Balhae=> Khitan Empire=> Jurchen Jin Dynasty line (in terms of kingdom/dynasty). In terms of ethnic groups, the Goguryeo factor in modern China is from the Sumo Mohe=> Jurchen=> Manchu line. Before this fact is fairly written down into the article, why should we argue about a secondary issue here? -- Jiejunkong 08:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Good friend100 is not interested in accepting solid, irrefutable facts - despite proof presented from both primary and secondary sources. Good friend100 asserts that "Goguryeo ended tributary relations with 'China' by the year 106 CE". His source states the following:
''From 75 BC until about 106 AD the governors of a small military prefecture of the Chinese Han dynasty, named Xuantu, engaged Koguryo leaders in a client relationship...
However, this excerpt ONLY concerns the Han Dynasty. I have provided proof that tributary relations with successive Northern dynasties did not end at Han:
Samguk Sagi (Korean primary source):
Year fifteen (656), summer, fifth month, iron fell like rain. Winter, twelfth month, envoys were sent to Tang to offer congratulations to the imperial crown prince. [42]
And the footnote corresponding to this excerpt states the following:
The Cefu yuangui (CY) 冊府元龜 (book 970) records this as a tribute mission.
Good friend100 ignores this by questioning the validity of primary sources (even though Samguk Sagi is a Korean source):
Again, Wikipedia leans more on other sources than primary sources for articles. And again your interpretation can be different from others. I see that sentence you put as a present to the imperial crown prince (for reasons I do not know why) and that it is "congratulating". (see Good friend100's talk page for more info)
In response, I gave him a secondary source to confirm it:
If you are still not convinced, here's a secondary source to confirm it:
Peace was maintained with the Koguryo after they sent tribute to the Tang in 619 until the Tang vassal state Silla complained that Koguryo and Paekche attacked them in 643. [43]
Despite solid evidence that tribute did not end in 106 CE, Good friend100, continues to assert this false claim into articles. It is almost laughable to see how some Koreans even reject their own historiography, citing these original historical texts as "original research." Can anyone clarify this for Good friend100? Assault11 00:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Goguryeo did NOT pay tribute to China as it grew more powerful because it didn't need to. Consider the wars Goguryeo fought with China. Do you think it is logical or makes sense that Goguryeo would pay tribute to its enemy? I don't think so. Good friend100 23:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll make it clearer in case you start repeating everything again.
Your sources are NOT legitimate because:
I think you should try to understand what I'm saying more throughly. I said that primary sources can be POV and original research. And cut the negative attitude. Good friend100 00:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What did Koreans make up? Kingj123 03:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, the section is really a POV from China. I added several sentences to it. Of course they are sourced. The source clearly says that although China considered Goguryeo to be a tributary state, Goguryeo was NOT a real tributary state because China had no power over the Goguryeo court at all. Good friend100 18:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
GF100 continues to assert that "Tributary relations ended in 106 AD." [46] This is absolutely false. After reading his above reply, I can see that he has no idea what he's talking about. Anyway, those who can talk some sense into him, please do so. Thanks. Assault11 21:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
FYI: According to Britannica, Goguryeo (Koguryo) "had sent tribute regularly" to Tang until about 642.-- Endroit 13:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Sui tributary relations is laughable at best. Its mired with intermittent tributes paid, every few years and then the start of the Sui war which resulted in the complete destruction of the Sui dynasty as a result. Yet after the war was won by Koguryo he sent tributes? Why the intermittent tributes? Either the author translated it wrong or something is wrong with the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 03:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I am sure that the communist governmemnt in China have huge influence towards the education. Kingj123 14:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Communism has nothing to do with this, although the Chinese government probably does have strict rules on education. Good friend100 23:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I can distinquish clearly between Goguryeo's culture from rest of China, there is no doubt. China is debating the obvious.
Also, China is the one who is acting, not Korea. The way you said that South Korea are educating its people makes me laugh. Every country in the world educates its people. But the peoblem is that Chinese education never mentioned of Goguryeo as part of China before communists took over, while Korea taught its people throughout the history.
Kingj123
23:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
What did Koreans make up? Specify. Kingj123 03:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What a lame answer and it is not even specific enough. It is not even in the full sentences. Look, we are debating about one of the strongest kingdoms in Northest Asia.
"fake...fake... history... fake...yeah.. those fake stuffs Koreans made..."
It is shameful, I hope other Chinese people give better reasons than that!
I have a Korean book just about 1 inch thick book about Goguryeo that has sofisticated, metaphorical, meaningful, emotional and widely connected history. I enjoyed it so much that I read over several times and I learned something new eachtime. Not even a single Korean could ever make that up. You should try reading it before you make any comments.
What is a "real" history for Chinese? Did they come with any better and more meaningful histories? Did chinese ever have insperation to make and publish inch thick books that only relates to Goguryeo independantly that have sofisticated, metaphorical, meaningful, emotional and widely connected history?
Also, being part of Chinese history doesn't mean that Goguryeo is nessesarly part of China. That is a false assumption.
Present Manchurian culture and tradition is different than Goguryeo's.
C Castles and fortresses today are exactly the same as the fortresses in Korea.
China is a wonderful country. However, among many present Koreans, my mother's last name is said to be descended from Goguryeo. It breaks my heart when I hear that Goguryeo is Chinese.
China finds Goguryeo just an regional state in China. Goguryeo means more than that to us. Kingj123 03:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
China is certainly not the only enemy for Goguryeo. Kingj123 05:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I will (try to) stay quiet for a while, fixing other articles. Kingj123 16:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
There's no reason to get upset about all this, because the communist propaganda exists equally on both sides. Here's a source describing North Korean Juche ideology, and how they've distorted archaeological and historical studies. North Korea is particularly ridiculed for the manner in which they've "found" Dangun's grave. And North Korea is accused of glorifying Goguryeo, while playing down the significance of Silla. And because of their Juche ideology, North Korea is supposed to be "self-sufficient" enough, and so heaven forbid China had anything to do with "their" Goguryeo history!-- Endroit 00:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Ha! Its the Koreans distorting history right? I certainly don't see this in the news.
"North Korea is distorting Chinese history"
Keep in mind that China is distorting history a ton compared to what North Korea does. Good friend100 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The following are reliable and neutral(non-Korean, non-Chinese) sources of expert authorship that have full or limited availability online that covers Goguryeo in some depth.
Entry on Goguryeo in Encyclopedia Britannica
[47]
Entry on Goguryeo in Concise Encyclopedia Britannica
[48]
Entries on Goguryo in Encarta
[49]
Entry on Korea(~540 C.E.) in Encyclopedia of World History
[50]
Entry on Korea(540~918) in Encyclopedia of World History
[51]
Archaeology of Korea by Sarah M. Nelson, Chapter 7(Three Kingdoms AD 300-668)
[52]
State Formation in Korea by Gina L. Barnes, Chapter 1(Early Korean States) page 20
[53]
I'll continue expanding the list, and add relevant text from sources not available online, as time allows.
Cydevil38
00:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are some of my choices for now:
Any others please feel free to contribute suggestions or make comments. WangKon936 03:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the wikipolicy Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, the sources you have listed here are as reliable as any "published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". But I am just curious why you (likely intentionally) didn't include Twenty-Four Histories, Samguk Sagi and similar trustworthy ancient records in the list. My comments are: if any author in your list does not do research based on Twenty-Four Histories, Samguk Sagi and similar trustworthy ancient records, then what remains in such an author's article is merely the person's personal POV with magic evidences.-- Jiejunkong 05:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There are several issues involved, so I'll lay them out as follows:
The above are not the only disputes involved in this article, but those have been the cause of recent revert wars that still go unresolved. Please feel free to comment on other parts of the article that you find problematic. 07:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cydevil38 ( talk • contribs)
The above CyDevil? WangKon936 15:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
My comments / opinions for each point are as follows:
I agree that the "political connections" section should be replaced with cultural connections between Goguryeo and China. I wrote some of this in in the "Culture" section of the article so we don't have to be repetitive. But including buddhism and arts, etc is something everybody can agree on. Good friend100 18:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is an excellent source
Here is a very informative source on Goguryeo culture and has a lot of information on Goguryeo religion, Dongmaek festival, etc.
I hope that this source can be used, since the only things I will be writing about is the culture, which (I hope) is not controversial here.
I'm asking if you think that this source is fair to use for the culture. Good friend100 19:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, as I said, I'm only trying to confirm that we can use this site for the culture ONLY. Its very informative. Good friend100 22:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Commenting that "Silla, which played the most critical role in all wars against Goguryeo" shows how you misunderstand who did what in the Goguryeo wars. Goguryeo fought with all the Chinese dynasties by itself. Silla only came in during the Goguryeo-Tang war.
We are not ignoring the "critical war". We are not excluding Silla, if you read the article. Good friend100 20:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As the section's title is Goguryeo-China Wars, and you put the Goguryeo-Silla War in this section, can we say that you are implying Silla is part of China? Is this a joke, or just a byproduct of some improper writing? -- Jiejunkong 05:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Wangkon's proposed paragraph. Changes in italics:
Yeah, I took out a lot of fluff that didn't really need to be in an intro. The thinking is that the intro should be short, to the point and an effective set up to the rest of the article. Other aspects of Koguryo should be bright out in the body of the article, not necessarily in the intro section. Thoughts? WangKon936 02:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, looks like the main objection I have is from CyDevil. I'll take his verbage and make some minor modifications. Thus the revised intro would look like this:
I'll wait a few days, watch for comments/discussion before making the changes. WangKon936 15:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
"Along with Baekje and Silla, Goguryeo was one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Goguryeo was an active participant in the power struggle for control of the Korean peninsula as well as associated with the foreign affairs of peer polities in China and Japan." Goguryeo wasn't in position of power struggled between other two Korean Kingdoms and China and Japan, where was China and Japan during Goguryeo era? You mean Sui and Tang, and Yamato? Please remove the China and Japan, China and Japan had nothing to do with Goguryeo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Now that we have general concensus regarding the intro, the next logical step is the History Section. It needs to be vastly improved, starting with, but not ending with, the nationalistic tone of the section. An improvement of the sources should be done as well, taking out web links and putting in more established and academic sources. Anyone else like to add to this discussion before work begins? Please discuss suggestions for wholesale changes here first before going out to make said changes. Thanks! WangKon936 15:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Gina Barnes (2001) draws upon and compares over 20 different sources, not just Rhee. It contains valuable comparative analyses of the key sources. Some of Barnes' sources may, of course, be cited directly also. However, I believe it is important to refer to Barnes, to keep our article balanced and NPOV. Here are some other sources cited by Gina Barnes (2001):
-- Endroit 15:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Should be listed as 37 BCE. There is no concensus of scholarship that says Koguryo was around in 2nd century CE. Even in Byington's PhD thesis he say's it's impossible to tell and the only thing we can be fairly certain of is that Koguryo was certainly around at 12 CE, when it was first mentioned in Chinese history books. As a matter of fact, Byington is more certain that the middle of the 1st century BCE is the actual founding date of Koguryo as a tribal leauge with some sort of centralization. I'll put up quotes from Byington this weekend. WangKon936 04:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the true foundation of Koguryo, I advocate, based on evidence forwarded by Mark Byington in his 2003 PhD dissertation on Puyo. In pages 200 to 240, he talks about Koguryo's foundation and comes to the conclusion that it was probably founded well into the 1st century BCE, not the 2nd century BCE, like some, more Korean nationalistic scholars. Some points I've summarized below:
1) There is a lack of textual evidence, be it Chinese or Korean, that state a 2nd century BCE foundation. According to a geographic monograph in the Han Shu the term Koguryo (or Gaoguli) was in use since 113 BCE, however, no references to the Koguryo people (not just a geographic reference as in the Han Shu) was mentioned till 12 CE, when they revolted from Xuantu.
2) Mark Byington accepts Kim Pu Sik's Koguryo foundation date as pretty much "plus or minus several decades" accurate. Per his words in page 233 of his dissertation, "While the dating of the events in the earlier chapters of the Annals [of Koguryo in the Samguk Sagi] is generally untrustworth, most of the events described appear to be misdated by only a few years, perhaps reflecting a later compiler's efforts to create as accurate a chronology as possible given material representing undated but seriallly sequenced events."
3) Byington uses two events to come to a "mid" 1st century foundation of Koguryo. First is the reorganizatinon of Xuautu in 75 BCE in response to increasingly coordinated and aggressive attacks by the Yemaek tribes, one of the forerunners of Koguryo. The second event is recorded in the Han Shu's annals as they relate to the records of Wang Mang, a warlord who had control of Xuantu. In it the Chinese records make their first noteworthy mention of Koguryo as a revolt in 12 CE when Wang Mang attempted to get Koguryo to attack the Xiongnu. Up until then, besides that vauge reference to geography in the Han Shu, Koguryo was not considered a group of people and was most likely confused as one of the many tribes of Yemaek peoples.
The sum of my research would thus state three major points:
1) There is reason to believe that Yemaek tribal groups with some centralization existed in the 2nd century BCE, but there is virtually no evidence to say that a centralized Koguryo state existed amoung these Yemaek tribal groups.
2) If Kim Pu Suk had any Silla bias towards his his dating of the three kingdoms of Korea, it's likely in the retro-dating of Silla and not the false dating of Koguryo and Baekje. Mark Byington (leading Koguryo scholar) never accuses Kim Pu Suk of false dating of Koguryo's foundation date based on a Silla bias and neither does Jonathan Best (leading Baekje scholar).
3) The understanding that Koguryo's history is 700 years old is attested in Chinese, Korean and Japanese ancient sources. The Nihongi itself quotes a lengthy letter where the mother of one of Koguryo's first kings said that the kingdom would only last 700 years (as she interpreted a dream). There is only one passing reference to Koguryo being 900 years old in one Chinese text, but the weight of all sources indicate a 700 year life of said kingdom. Thus the weight of evidence would suggest Koguryo being founded in the middle of the 1st century BCE, as attested to the majority of Korean historiography, however, based on archeological and textual evidience that there was increasing centralization of Yemaek tribes in the 2nd BCE, theories of Koguryo being in existance since the 2nd century should at least be mentioned. WangKon936 02:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I see that there are links to rulers or "Danguns" of GoJoseon in this article. Considering that the list of Danguns is problematic at best, they should be deleted. I will withhold doing so for a few days to get some comments. WangKon936 04:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There are numerous violations of
WP:NCGN in this article.
WP:NCGN states that 'When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it'. Manchuria is an
archaic names which describes the modern geographic region of NE China in the period from 1635 to 1945. In the modern context, that name is called NE China, and should be used instead of Manchuria. Using Manchuria to describe the region out of its relevant historical period of 1635 to 1945 is therefore a violation of
WP:NCGN. Will the editors here please correct the violations.
Wiki Pokemon
03:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
actually, Korea has a longer history with Manchuria (northeast china) than China does. Notable Korean influence is actually quite large in the liaodong area, from archeological finds. It would be most appropriate to withdraw that unsupported and biased claim. Odst 02:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Rules are rules. You cannot change or ignore the rules simply because it doesn't suit you. Cydevil38, Wikimachine and Good friend100, this triad has become a notorious mafia which causes disaster to the articles they touched. Also welcome for any investigation, I don't play sock puppetry.-- Jiejunkong 03:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Stop now. Cease and desist. Any further flaming posts here will be considered trolling as per WP:TROLL and will be reverted and/or slow reverted. This is the Goguryeo talk page. If you wish to engage in infantile bufoonery let me show you the door. Take yur disputes that do not directly relate to this article elsewhere -- anywhere but here. I am speaking to all of those who have posted the above irrelevant messages. All users are reminded that WP:CIVIL is policy, NOT a guideline. Mumun 無文 19:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Is the passage Goguryeo, along with China and Baekje, played a significant part in influencing Japan with their culture. really necessary in the introduction? I don't think it's as important to warrant a place in the introduction. I suggest either taking this passage out or moving it to another section where it is relevant. Cydevil38 14:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I see that Wangkon has taken it out without moving it to another location. Personally, I feel that Goguryeo's influence on Japan, unlike that of Bakeje, was limited and wasn't very significant, so I'm reluctunt to add it again to relevent location(perhaps cultural legacy). If someone disagrees, I suggest re-adding the passage into "Cultural Impact". Cydevil38 22:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
sorry. I thought about that when I added it, but I figured someone else would do it, cause I am too lazy. Odst 00:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
To anonymous user with IP 216.99.99.119: zh.wikisource has all the reliable sources you mentioned. I've spent lots of time to input all canonical sources about 靺鞨 and 高麗(as an abbreviation of Goguryeo before year 918, and as Goryeo after 918), cast me a message if you need more reliable sources on this topic. At zh.wikisource, I was busy at admin and handling 全唐詩 and 宋史. 高麗 is not my main concern.-- Jiejunkong 01:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to link all orginal history text regarding Goguryeo History (from zh.wikisource) to this page. But somehow my links don't work. Could you please tell me how. Thank you.
In Wikipedia, you are supposed to cite secondary or tertiary reliable sources, not primary sources that are centuries old. Also, there's no point in compiling a list of centuries old records in Chinese on a Goguryeo article in an English encyclopedia, is there? Not to mention Samguk sagi is hardly the only Korean record that records Goguryeo. Cydevil38 07:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
To User:Mumum, I deleted your sidekick tag which supports User:Cydevil38's rule-breaking behavior. I posted a message saying that User:Cydevil38 had not participated in related talk at 7:01 UTC in User talk:Nlu, then User:Cydevil38 demonstrated his efficiency by rapidly posting the random message at 7:30 UTC to act as if he involved in the talk. But the message he posted is completely random and I cannot see the relation of his message to the discussion on reliable sources (defined by real wikipolicy). Now several hours have passed and he has not shown the efficiency he typically showed. My worry about his disappearance is genuine and real. This discussion is related to the topic because User:Cydevil38 is employing this hit-and-run strategy to block any edit he dislikes for the Goguryeo article, so this discussion is not unrelated to the article as what you claimed.-- Jiejunkong 11:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Also this section and User talk:Nlu page will become the proof of filing an RFC against User:Cydevil38's denial of authoritative reliable sources. This rule-breaking denial advocated by User:Cydevil38 (with supports from several other POV users) has lasted for months and needs to be settled by wikirules.-- Jiejunkong 12:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38, as I've argued (and I think with sufficiently backed up citations to Wikipedia guidelines), the Chinese official histories are not primary sources as far as Wikipedia's definitions are concerned, except in the context of historiography of those works. -- Nlu ( talk) 15:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm about 80% finished with my edits and will focus my additional major edits on the aforementioned section, which needs A LOT of work. I've renamed it "The Political and Cultural relationship between Goguryeo and the Chinese Central Plains Dynasties" because I believe it is a more accurate reflection of the actual case. I will delete entries such as "...enfoliated as duke of..." and other references to Chinese titles given to Koguryo rulers as it is materially no different from the type of titles that the Chinese dynasties had given to Silla, Baekje or Yamato Japan and hence, doesn't really give much meaningful information. Instead, it will summarize Koguryo relationships with the various Chinese dynasties as well as the impact sinofication had on Koguryo. WangKon936 04:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Please excuse my slow clean-up and revision of the article. I'm going through it, but there is ALOT of work that needs to be done. ALOT of needless detail and overtly nationalistic verbage in this article make it of little use to people who want to do research and learn an objective view of this kingdom. Please be patient. Thanks! If you have any suggestions, please let me know! WangKon936 02:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been following the debate as closely as I should have. Is it possible to compromise and use the Korean pronunciations, particularly the "McCune-Reischauer" style given that South and North Korea are not in agreement regarding the Revised Romanization and put the Pinyin in parenthesis, particularly with place names that are currently in PRC territory? WangKon936 16:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a directly related wikipolicy Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) for phrases and sentences written in Chinese language. 丸都 is written in (classic) Chinese language and hence covered by this wikipolicy.-- Jiejunkong 08:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This aritcle is for English speakers, not Korean or Chinese speakers. Hence, the common romanization in reliable English publications should be used in the benefit of English readers of this article. Absolute majority of reliable English publications, including the major encyclopedias, recognize Goguryeo as a Korean entity and consistently use Korean romanization. In case of Hwando(Chinese:Wandu), Google books search results in 20 hits for Hwando [66] and 3 hits for Wandu [67]. 2 of 3 hits for Wandu are in fact false positives. Jiejunkong should start to realize that these articles in the English Wikipedia are for English readers who are interested in the subject, not Chinese nationalists who want Goguryeo to become Chinese. Cydevil38 02:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Nope, It didn't break any conventions as far as I am aware... It's just that it makes much more sense to Romanize it the Korean way. By the way, 城 is not city. It is fortress. 城 is sometimes used to mention a fortified city or town, but its technical meaning is Fortress. 丸都山城 is not today's name. It was always known as 丸都山城 , but it was referred to colloquially as 丸都城. Odst 00:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Different romanization systems do cause some problems. There are Wade-Giles and Pinyin romanization systems for Chinese, and there are McCune-Reischauer and Revised romanization for Korean. Typically, these 4 systems produce 4 different spellings. I wonder if the administration team wants to define a clearer rule on which one(s) to use. (1) At least for the Chinese language, Pinyin is replacing Wade-Giles because the latter one doesn't represent the "correct" pronunciation (it was more convenient for Westerners to pronounce, but the pronunciation is not Chinese). (2) I guess that most Chinese users have no idea how Korean romanizations work, and vice versa (Korean users have no idea how Pinyin works). Because Goryeo used Chinese as the written language until the 15th century when King Sejong invented Hangul, all historical entities before the 15th century were presented in the (classic) Chinese characters. This phenomenon demands a balanced solution for both Chinese readers and Korean readers to understand the romanization forms of the historical entities.-- Jiejunkong 23:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I have initiated a relevant talk at Wikipedia_talk:Translation#Romanization_of_Chinese_characters. Welcome for speaking out your opinion.-- Jiejunkong 00:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Odst 00:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
discussed before? uh huh, with you quietly evading much of it. Maybe we should romanize every single historical entity in Wikiproject Korea into Pinyin. Oh wait, maybe we can also Romanize all the Kanji words in the Japanese articles into Pinyin. Hell, why don't you just go ahead and move this article to Goagouli, since they are Chinese characters? Odst 01:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
oops, I forgot to type in a period. I will fix it now. but even with that little typo, you seem to have trouble comprehending American English, because again, you are missing the point. I'm not sure what it is, whether you do not understand or pretend not to understand, but you are pissing me off with your **** ** ****** ***** ( I censored it, because it may count as a personal attack). WHAT???? I DIDNT REMOVE PINYIN! WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? I don't think Goguryeo makes sense to Chinese readers either... you might as well change that, too...(sarcasm) Odst 01:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
again...why don't you actually address the points properly, rather rambling on about Chinese Romanization and such? it's really annoying... Odst 02:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't care what you guys say b/c I'm not going to repeat after Odst - I completely agree with him - and that's why I don't need to participate in the discussion. Who cares, at the end of the day, you have no consensus, and that means the article remains in the original form. You guys love all that Wikipedia policies & crappy/conflicting conventions so much, well here's a law that you'll all like and that is without consensus no change. Good day to y'all. Wikimachine 21:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me also tell you guys, probably the only way for you to check that what you're doing is sensible is by doing Rfc. And I promise you your crappy idea will be rejected completely. ( Wikimachine 21:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me add, Wangkon's version is probably a compromisory attempt at Jiejunkong's proposal. However, there is no consensus either for the compromise or Jiejunkong's version so no change. Got it? Also, I think that the mountain should be named Wandu, but the fortress should remain as Hwando. Jiejunkong made too many weasel wordings and unnecessary statements just to emphasize the fact that it's located in the Wandu mountain in the Jilin crappy whatever. I think that my version is the most sound, with most focus on the info's only & good flow in English. Wikimachine 22:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Wikimachine. Besides, Jiejenkong still hasn't given a good reason for Hwando to be romanized as Wandu. Whining and reverting won't really help at all, because I'll be there to revert it back. :P Odst 22:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikimachine is making things up. Wangkon first edited independently on 12 Aug. I doubt he make a compromise with Jiejenkong for that original version. Either way, that is the original version. That version was immediately changed unilaterally by Cydevil just hours later to replace Wandu with Hwando, and started the revert war. Jiejenkong reverted but compromised to allow Cydevil addition of Hwando. Wikimachine then mentioned we should stick to the version before the edit war, but he now back tracked, and made a totally unilateral version which suit himself. Whatever happen, seek a consensus before making changes to the original version. Remember that the first provocation comes from the revert of the original version. Wiki Pokemon 00:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
nevertheless, it would be stupid to romanize the fortress in Pinyin... Note how history is written in books and other sources. Odst 00:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand, but I still don't approve of what happened. Nlu stuck in Wandu just for the purpose of providing info & b/c he didn't get the Korean romanizations, etc. But since this is within Korean context, Wandu should be mentioned once or twice for the plain purpose of informing the readers with some connectible concepts/names..... not that ridiculous amount of repetition and wandu/hwando for some propaganda. ( Wikimachine 16:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC))
Where is the source for this?
Dae Jung-sang and his son Dae Joyeong, both former Goguryeo generals, regained most of Goguryeo's northern land after its downfall in 668, established the kingdom "Later Goguryeo". Later Goguryeo was renamed Great Jin, and eventually Balhae after the death of Dae Jung-sang.
I am not sure if Dae Jung named the kingdom "Later Goguryeo" first. I always thought it was Dae Jin, then Parhae. WangKon936 19:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, I think that passage is incorrect. My sources show no metion of Dae Jungsang participating in the creation of Goguryeo, But I know for sure Dae jo yoeng did. Later Goguryeo was formed by some monk dude waaaaay after Balhae was formed. Odst 23:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
he wasn't involved with the formation of Pohai... Odst 00:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I can understand why some people call Goguryeo as chinese area, but it should note that without consulting Korean government, chinese government is doing and destroying Goguryeo artifacts, and blocking access of Korean visting to the site or artifacts. Also, it tries to force in historian with its military power that Goguryeo is puppet of Chinese main country. Question comes, then, why Goguryeo fought against chinese multiple times? This clearly indicates that Goguryeo is not puppet of main-land chinese territory. Also, also, there is evidence that Parts of Manchuria was choson's land, but when Japan took that, and after liberation, the foreign country decided to give it to chinese without consulting Kor. Government similar to what of Dokto is. If you want to give me evidences, I'll give that next month. (since i only go to wikipedia for once a month) Conclusion:Therefore Goguryeo is not chinese territory. Also, you need to release block, because front image of template of preventing access is broken. Thanks for hearing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.108.120.26 ( talk) 02:05:11, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
The above unsigned comment was not written by me. I would assume any comments not signed by myself, but written in a similar style, to have been written by someone else. WangKon936 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Just saying that it is not POV or not might be backed by number of people. It seems that there are much chinese users than Korean users, so rather than just doing surveys, listing references help. It is just opinion, don't criticize me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.108.120.26 ( talk) 02:07:05, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
yo, that aint wangkon...Wangkon is at least proficient in his language. this guy aint wangok... probably some nutty Korean kid that came to the US recently. >< Odst 00:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The above unsigned comment was not written by me. I would assume any comments not signed by myself, but written in a similar style, to have been written by someone else. WangKon936 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There are many things that is capitalized but shouldn't capitalzed and with some grammar mistakes. Such thing is "In November 668 Bojang, the last king of Goguryeo, Surrendered to Tang Gaozhong." {{ editprotected}}
I'm Korean.
I think Goguryeo, Balhae is not completely Korean history.Dongmyeongseong and Go, even though the myth says differently, were probably half-Mohe half-Buyeo descent, everything points to that. Adding to that, as both were mostly manchurian, I guess that not all of Goguryeo's histgory should be Korean. I say again: I'm Korean. Kfc1864 talk my edits 09:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not Korean.
Hardyandtiny
--Removed-- Pro-Japanese nationalist statement, no credibility what so ever.
Wayne, I'd like to refer you to this compilation of research on the Koguryo language, which may be of great interest to you:
http://www.historyfoundation.or.kr/Data/DataGarden/Journal(02-2)(2).pdf]
It's a special volume of Journal of Inner and East Asian Studies that focuses on the Koguryo language, where some prominent linguists of Northeast Asian languages have contributed. You can also find a paper by Beckwith, the main proponent of Koguryo-language-was-Japonic-but-not-Korean theory. It's a huge download(about 50mb), but it's well worth it.
On the particular topic on whether Koguryo language was Korean or Japonic, this journal volume has three articles. They are as follows:
It seems that all four agree that at some point in time people spoke Japonic on the Korean peninsula. The contention remains on which part of the Korean peninsula spoke the Japonic language and which part spoke the Korean language. It is my understanding that Beckwith believes that people on the Korean peninsula spoke Japonic with the exception of southeastern part of the Korean peninsula. Korean would spread throughout the Korean peninsula as a consequence of Silla's expansion. Janhuen believes the linguistic situation was quite diverse, people on the western coasts of the Korean peninsula possibly speaking Japonic, those in the southeastern part of the Korean peninsula speaking Korean, and argue that the language of the ruling class of Koguryo was either Tungusic or Paleo-Siberian(in his words, "Amuric"). Unger and Vovin, on the other hand, argue that although Japonic languages were spoken on the southern part of the Korean peninsula, all the three kingdoms, Goguryeo, Baekje and Silla, spoke different dialects of the same language, Old Korean, by the time of the Three Kingdoms of Korea period.
The current situation in the academia seems that the discussion is still on-going and inconclusive whether Koguryo was Japonic or Korean, or even Tungusic or Paleo-Siberian, so we'll have to give it more time for further development in the academic discussions. Cydevil38 06:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
What the hell are you talking about? I have taken 2 east asian history courses and there were absolutely no mention of Goguryeo being Japanese. Thats about the dumbest thing i've ever heard of. What is being taught is the complete opposite, Korean kingdoms migrated to Japan instilling many things such as religion, civilization and the Yakuza eventually. This nothing more than the Japanese trying to save face from its obvious subordinate position in East Asian history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 03:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
(The century infos are different from source to source over the net.)
Hello, I think these pictures could be useful to update the article if you added more info regarding Goguryeo people's habits and pastime like ssireum and Korean tea. The pictures I found from internet were originally for hanbok, but I'm ignorant of Goguryeo history and this article looks controversial. Therefore, I leave this piece here. Good luck. -- Appletrees 23:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Its pitiful that the Chinese have no honor about history. They'll gladly change whatever they need to maintain healthy self-esteem. The sad part about all this is the Chinese reliance on ancient history. I know alot of people from different races and only the Japanese and Chinese have this desperate reliance to keep face. It may or may not stem from being genetically inferior in terms of looks and the fact that most of them are super nerds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.142.222 ( talk) 04:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Brave commentor who has not included a sign name... How equally "pitiful." WangKon936 ( talk) 20:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I have problem with signing my user ID, I've tried but can't signed. Need some help here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
King Mobon was the last of the Hae line. Did Jumong actually carry the surname Ko? It seems king Kwanggaeto wanted to show that he is in fact the direct descendant of Jumong so abruptly changed his surname to legitimize Ko rule.
What exactly is the Kyeru lineage? Were there different sects within the Ko house? Kuebie ( talk) 20:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Why remove the note on the top: This is about the state founded in northeastern Asia named Gaogouli or Goguryeo (高句麗). For the county named Gaogouli or Goguryeo (高句麗縣) founded by Han Dynasty, see Gaogouli County - Dicting ( talk) 18:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Kuebie, Why did you remove the following two:
Why? For the latter, The name of the article uses Goguryeo, the Korean pronounciation of 高句麗, instead of Gaogouli, the Chinese pronounciation of 高句麗, is already a big concession to Korean for Chinese. You Koreans have never say thanks to us for this, instead, you eaven oppose us to add our pronounciation Gaogouli as a paratactic name. I see that You korean is just 得寸進尺(Give you an inch and you will take a mile). - Dicting ( talk) 20:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the English Wikipedia, where common names in English are used. The common English name of Goguryeo is Koguryo, but Goguryeo is used per naming convention that revised romanization is to be used. Also, the Chinese pronounciation of Gaogouli is provided in the name box. Cydevil38 ( talk) 08:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Now Koreans always remove the above content I added, and yet they havn't privded the reason (say nothing of sufficient reason ) why they do so. How to solve the conflict? Just now I read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, and I think in the first step it's a good idea to seek Wikipedia:Third opinion, and I'd like to launch one. - Dicting ( talk) 03:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I am responding to a request for a third opinion.
The disambiguation note that is being disputed links to a page named Xuantu Commandery, which only makes a minor reference to Gaogouli County in the article's final sentence. In my opinion, such a note does not help Wikipedia readers, therefore it is not needed. Truthanado ( talk) 00:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
There was a big Gaogouli state, and there was a small Gaogouli county. It indicates the high possibility that the later Gaogouli state regarded the area of Gaogouli county as the core area of Gaogouli. - Dicting ( talk) 19:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Right now I searched and read some parts of some history books. And now I get to know that during Han Dynasty, the administration of Gaogouli State was assigned to Gaogouli County. In the Han Pingdi era, Han Dynasty altogether had 241 states including Gaogouli States. Those states and their near county has similar relationships. - Dicting ( talk) 07:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
And also Gaogouli(高句麗) = Xiagouli(下句麗). Gao (高, high) and Xia (下, down) are only adjective. When Wang Mang became angry with Gouli peolple, he changed the name of Gaogouli to Xiagouli, just like Shangyintai (上殷台, 上/Shang means up) was renamed to Xiayintai (下殷台, 下/Xia means down). - Dicting ( talk) 07:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)