This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Regarding using the word "mainstream" vs. "traditional" to describe the Christianity that calls God a Trinity, I believe that "traditional" is much more appropriate. It implies that this is the Christian belief that has been literally "handed down" (Greek tradutio or close to it), or the historical understanding. Mainstream merely denotes the prevailing current of thought, which can change over time. Wesley 23:45 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
I think that the term "traditional" doesn't have anything at all to do with the idea of a religion's original beliefs. The original beliefs of the Israelites and early Jews had a lot to do with animal sacrifices and an anthropomorphic conception of God. However, traditional Judaism is quite different! The term traditional Judaism would refer to the Judaism of the past milennia, perhaps the last two milennia, yet it certainly would not be mistaken (except by Jewish fundamentalists) for the beliefs that existed in the days of Moses. The same is true for Christianity; traditional Christianity has been pretty much defined by Trinitarianism. Was that the original view taught be Jesus? Historians would say probably not, but that is a separate question. While Christianity could have evolved in a different way, the historical outcome was that it became trinitarian early on and stayed that way, with only relatively small groups holding other views. I would thus favor Wesley's wording. RK
RK's example is interesting because it seems to suggest that both "traditional Judaism" and "traditional Christianity" began anew; that is, there wasn't an original semblance (of the relevant matter) handed down to the traditional one. But as soulpatch questions, "traditional Christianity" is not used only in the sense RK suggests. Traditional Christiantity does carry the meaning of originalness with it. For this reason, that term and others (like historical) that imply originalness are not appropriate. (In answer to Wes' question, to be sure, I am not equating tradition with history or anything else. The objection is to the meaning of originalness attached to these terms.) While mainstream does not necessarily capture the fact that the trinity doctrine was held during a certain period in the past (or will be held in the future), mainstream does NOT denote merely present thought either. The drawback to mainstream is not particularly crucial while the drawback to traditional is. B
Both "traditional" and "mainstream" have NPOV problems in this context. One objective term is "Nicene Christianity", since the Nicene Creed is where the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized. Another objective term is "most Christians". Stephen C. Carlson
at NeoPaganism. Freeman 19:40 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
I propose to add a link to Omnipresence in the "Omnipotent and Omniscient" section, something to the effect of "see also Omnipresence" Samw 03:08 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
I propose to break this page into multiple articles. I am getting: WARNING: This page is 30 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections. (I also personally like smaller articles.) Samw
I know this is off topic, but which browsers have trouble with longer articles? Has this policy been discussed at length anywhere? (so I can move discussion there) Mozilla and Phoenix have never given me any trouble in this regard. Now, when certain sections of an article grow to the point that they can stand on their own, I have no objections to dividing them up. I think the limit annoys me more on Talk pages, where I'd rather let the page get a bit longer than 32k before archiving. Wesley
Many browsers cause the page to become blanked out when people who have problems with long articles try to edit them. So it's not just an inconvenience, it actually causes problems. -- Zoe
I just added a paragraph comparing the Kabbalah with Gregory Palamas' idea of essence and energies. As I finished it, I realized that as far as I know, I may be the first to make the comparison. I'm not exactly an expert on either the Kabbalah or Palamas, but I think the idea there would stand up. However, I won't object if someone wants to remove the material, especially if I'm badly misunderstanding either of them. Wesley
Christians I think would agree that access to God is easy but incomplete, and that absolute access to God in His essence is impossible. However, Christianity or at least Eastern Orthodoxy would say that access to God can grow in increasing measure, and probably believe in greater access to God than would orthodox Judaism. According to Christianity, this is only made possible by the incarnation and work of Jesus Christ, which "fused" (possibly a poor word choice) our human nature with the divine nature, as well as beginning the healing of the imago dei in which we are made. Stories of a few of the saints include visible manifestations of this while they were still alive, including Gregory Palamas himself visibly glowing. This progression of closer communion with God can continue after death, and this is what we anticipate (not just lazy harp strumming!). So it is somewhat esoteric, and can be mistaken for gnosticism, but I don't think it is at all. On the contrary, Palamas argued strenuously that the light on Mt. Tabor was God's divine, uncreated light which the disciples were given the grace to see, and not something created or fabricated as Barlaam of Calabria insisted. But he balanced this by also affirming that they did not and could not see God's essence. (Yet again walking a line between two opposing errors.) Wesley 20:23 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
Why no mention of monism?
Also, I object to the first non-bulleted paragraph in the middle of the big bulleted list. It seems to break it into two logical parts, whereas the division is mostly groundless. The second non-bulleted paragraph can stay - it follows a logical division. Smack 03:48 28 May 2003 (UTC)
I have removed this paragraph for the moment, because it is vague and needs clarification:
I just woke up from a nap in an uncharacteristically gruff mood, and deleted this recent addition because it did not refer to the context. There is nothing wrong with the argument; it's only the placement of it that can be improved. Sorry. Mkmcconn 00:48 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Heh, OK, minor thing, hardly worth worrying about, but in response to Branko's edit: removed 'but', as there is no contradiction, the word "but" doesn't imply contradiction, it implies tension. There is a tension between there being no solid evidence for God yet belief being so widespread. It is at least prima facie odd, in need of explanation, etc... Evercat 22:24 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Moving highly POV material from article:
"Since you asked.... That is the only view with a sufficiently high probability of existence to be rationally believed, although only by someone with a desperate desire to believe. Such a god could evolve by natural selection rather than be produced by the random generation of worlds from nothing. That vastly increases the likelihood of developing intelligence, surviving, and acquiring social skills. It also allows the possibility of creating many universes with gods, thus increasing the probability that ours is such a universe. Since there is no return from a created universe, I envision such a species creating universes as places of exile for their criminals."
"Who holds this view?" should be answered by something like "Dr. Jophan of Miskatonic University has argued..." or "The thus-and-such group asserts..." not by a claim that the author's view is the only rational one. Vicki Rosenzweig 02:25 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
User:Reddi and User:MINDBOMB seem to be trying to describe Islam as a polytheistic religion -- this is, with respect, nonsense. Islam is a monotheistic religion, worshipping the same God as Judaism and Christianity. -- The Anome 21:38, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
[MINDBOMB] The god of islam is not the same god as the Jews or Christians as according to the quran allah resides in hell overseeing the torture of the Jews and the Christian and none believers. In Christianity it is understood that hell is the separation from god the to ideas are incompatible there for not of the same source. The satanic verses something not denied in the quran was all about adopting polytheism stating that allah 3 daughters where pathways to paradise.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Regarding using the word "mainstream" vs. "traditional" to describe the Christianity that calls God a Trinity, I believe that "traditional" is much more appropriate. It implies that this is the Christian belief that has been literally "handed down" (Greek tradutio or close to it), or the historical understanding. Mainstream merely denotes the prevailing current of thought, which can change over time. Wesley 23:45 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
I think that the term "traditional" doesn't have anything at all to do with the idea of a religion's original beliefs. The original beliefs of the Israelites and early Jews had a lot to do with animal sacrifices and an anthropomorphic conception of God. However, traditional Judaism is quite different! The term traditional Judaism would refer to the Judaism of the past milennia, perhaps the last two milennia, yet it certainly would not be mistaken (except by Jewish fundamentalists) for the beliefs that existed in the days of Moses. The same is true for Christianity; traditional Christianity has been pretty much defined by Trinitarianism. Was that the original view taught be Jesus? Historians would say probably not, but that is a separate question. While Christianity could have evolved in a different way, the historical outcome was that it became trinitarian early on and stayed that way, with only relatively small groups holding other views. I would thus favor Wesley's wording. RK
RK's example is interesting because it seems to suggest that both "traditional Judaism" and "traditional Christianity" began anew; that is, there wasn't an original semblance (of the relevant matter) handed down to the traditional one. But as soulpatch questions, "traditional Christianity" is not used only in the sense RK suggests. Traditional Christiantity does carry the meaning of originalness with it. For this reason, that term and others (like historical) that imply originalness are not appropriate. (In answer to Wes' question, to be sure, I am not equating tradition with history or anything else. The objection is to the meaning of originalness attached to these terms.) While mainstream does not necessarily capture the fact that the trinity doctrine was held during a certain period in the past (or will be held in the future), mainstream does NOT denote merely present thought either. The drawback to mainstream is not particularly crucial while the drawback to traditional is. B
Both "traditional" and "mainstream" have NPOV problems in this context. One objective term is "Nicene Christianity", since the Nicene Creed is where the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized. Another objective term is "most Christians". Stephen C. Carlson
at NeoPaganism. Freeman 19:40 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
I propose to add a link to Omnipresence in the "Omnipotent and Omniscient" section, something to the effect of "see also Omnipresence" Samw 03:08 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
I propose to break this page into multiple articles. I am getting: WARNING: This page is 30 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections. (I also personally like smaller articles.) Samw
I know this is off topic, but which browsers have trouble with longer articles? Has this policy been discussed at length anywhere? (so I can move discussion there) Mozilla and Phoenix have never given me any trouble in this regard. Now, when certain sections of an article grow to the point that they can stand on their own, I have no objections to dividing them up. I think the limit annoys me more on Talk pages, where I'd rather let the page get a bit longer than 32k before archiving. Wesley
Many browsers cause the page to become blanked out when people who have problems with long articles try to edit them. So it's not just an inconvenience, it actually causes problems. -- Zoe
I just added a paragraph comparing the Kabbalah with Gregory Palamas' idea of essence and energies. As I finished it, I realized that as far as I know, I may be the first to make the comparison. I'm not exactly an expert on either the Kabbalah or Palamas, but I think the idea there would stand up. However, I won't object if someone wants to remove the material, especially if I'm badly misunderstanding either of them. Wesley
Christians I think would agree that access to God is easy but incomplete, and that absolute access to God in His essence is impossible. However, Christianity or at least Eastern Orthodoxy would say that access to God can grow in increasing measure, and probably believe in greater access to God than would orthodox Judaism. According to Christianity, this is only made possible by the incarnation and work of Jesus Christ, which "fused" (possibly a poor word choice) our human nature with the divine nature, as well as beginning the healing of the imago dei in which we are made. Stories of a few of the saints include visible manifestations of this while they were still alive, including Gregory Palamas himself visibly glowing. This progression of closer communion with God can continue after death, and this is what we anticipate (not just lazy harp strumming!). So it is somewhat esoteric, and can be mistaken for gnosticism, but I don't think it is at all. On the contrary, Palamas argued strenuously that the light on Mt. Tabor was God's divine, uncreated light which the disciples were given the grace to see, and not something created or fabricated as Barlaam of Calabria insisted. But he balanced this by also affirming that they did not and could not see God's essence. (Yet again walking a line between two opposing errors.) Wesley 20:23 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
Why no mention of monism?
Also, I object to the first non-bulleted paragraph in the middle of the big bulleted list. It seems to break it into two logical parts, whereas the division is mostly groundless. The second non-bulleted paragraph can stay - it follows a logical division. Smack 03:48 28 May 2003 (UTC)
I have removed this paragraph for the moment, because it is vague and needs clarification:
I just woke up from a nap in an uncharacteristically gruff mood, and deleted this recent addition because it did not refer to the context. There is nothing wrong with the argument; it's only the placement of it that can be improved. Sorry. Mkmcconn 00:48 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Heh, OK, minor thing, hardly worth worrying about, but in response to Branko's edit: removed 'but', as there is no contradiction, the word "but" doesn't imply contradiction, it implies tension. There is a tension between there being no solid evidence for God yet belief being so widespread. It is at least prima facie odd, in need of explanation, etc... Evercat 22:24 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Moving highly POV material from article:
"Since you asked.... That is the only view with a sufficiently high probability of existence to be rationally believed, although only by someone with a desperate desire to believe. Such a god could evolve by natural selection rather than be produced by the random generation of worlds from nothing. That vastly increases the likelihood of developing intelligence, surviving, and acquiring social skills. It also allows the possibility of creating many universes with gods, thus increasing the probability that ours is such a universe. Since there is no return from a created universe, I envision such a species creating universes as places of exile for their criminals."
"Who holds this view?" should be answered by something like "Dr. Jophan of Miskatonic University has argued..." or "The thus-and-such group asserts..." not by a claim that the author's view is the only rational one. Vicki Rosenzweig 02:25 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
User:Reddi and User:MINDBOMB seem to be trying to describe Islam as a polytheistic religion -- this is, with respect, nonsense. Islam is a monotheistic religion, worshipping the same God as Judaism and Christianity. -- The Anome 21:38, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
[MINDBOMB] The god of islam is not the same god as the Jews or Christians as according to the quran allah resides in hell overseeing the torture of the Jews and the Christian and none believers. In Christianity it is understood that hell is the separation from god the to ideas are incompatible there for not of the same source. The satanic verses something not denied in the quran was all about adopting polytheism stating that allah 3 daughters where pathways to paradise.