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why do we have a "mythology" section now? this article is too long already. move to Elohim or YHWH, or, well, Mythology. dab 12:46, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In a religious studies class currently and reading the Qur'an. They do not choose to translate Allah into God, even though it should translate directly. Even speaking to them, they refer to the Christian god as "God" (even though they express that they are the same thing just one is 'misinterpreted) and their god as "Allah". Not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but it seems the definitions are missing something...
Jayon 16:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the religions are historically related to each other. However, they have mutually exclusive concepts of God; some think God exists in three persons (i.e. as a Trinity), others think this is an impossible or blasphemous or polytheistic idea. Very very few people think that both conceptions of God can be equally valid at the same time, at least among those who genuinely believe that a deity exists. Thus there has been some internal debate among Jews and Muslims concerning whether Christians are even monotheistic. Wesley 17:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In looking at this disscussion I expected to see a lengthy edit war. Said war's absence is a clear sign of wikipedia's integrity and maturity. As I understand it, god has two meanings, the proper noun, god which refers to the judeo-christian god as well as allah and there is the regular noun. Regardless of whether there actually are any gods besides the judeo-christian one, the noun is still a valid noun. the etymology section seems rather biased on this point (also seeming to insinuate that paganism is dead). as example, even though lightsabers may not actually exist, we should not say dispute the credibility of the noun, 'lightsaber'. I'll leave this for a month to see if anyone objects and then alter it if there are no objections. Also a note monotheism is a very small portion of the worlds religeous community. It's all fine and good to believe something but please don't put it in an encyclopedia. Olleicua 03:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Who is disputing what, and why?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:56, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I slipped the words "a term referring to" into the first line defining another controversial encyclpedic entry and immediately it was reverted... But here, the author has used and even longer similar qualifying phrase, "a term referring to the concept of" to define "God." "God is a term referring to the concept of a Supreme Being..." I inlcuded thisin POV, which I guess means "political correct version, though I dont know what the O stands for in P.O.V. and Non P.O.V.? Just a curiosity, not a complaint, and more about other pages than this one which to me seems quite rightly to start with the definition of the word as a word before stating absolutes.-- T. Mc. 00:20, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
this sectoin of the article seems to me to be open to some interpretation, did Clarke mean in the quote that was litteraly create God in some physical form or that he is a construct of collective human beleif? this quote seems like the surrounding context would clear that up.
some mortals can become gods in some religions nad mythologies.
Gabrielsimon
08:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
What valid proof of God is there?
I am
I think I'll interject some conventional HGTTG wisdom into the issue. You wish to proove that God exists? Suppose you find irrefutable proof of god's existance. Well proof removes faith. And without faith god no longer exists. And (to quote Douglas Adams directly) God disapears in a puff of logic! Olleicua 22:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently edits by Jordanblue added a reference to Rael and its website directly in the article. I personally think that it should not belong the main article but (if really necessary) in the links section. What do you think? Nova77 17:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
hey this article (and this talk page:)) reads good enough now to be nominated as a featured article - too drowsy to do it now and tomorrow weekend chores backlog to be cleared so dont know if i'll remeber. blokes*, think about nominating this.
Not even close. Request for peer review, maybe. Inserting a copyedit tag would be more like it... Blair P. Houghton 21:08, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
God is the supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.
or
God is a term referring to the concept of a supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.
God = supreme being. You can say God doesn't exist, or that a supreme being doesn't exist, but you can't say God isn't a supreme being. And "a term referring to the concept of a..." is a joke. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:37, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How is it a joke? When you say, "love refers to the concept of human affection," it's perfectly normal--you don't say, "love is great," or "love is human compassion." Because even though were are trying to be NPOV, a statement that is seemingly objective like "God is" really isn't. Do you study languages? I do. When you define a word in another language in, let's say, English, you say, "Ai means love." You do not say "Ai is love." Besides it being grammatically clunky, it is hard to exact ambiguous concepts like that.
You can not say "God is the supreme being" as the article stated in its earlier form. This is inherently POV. "God" isn't a supreme being. God is a word to describe this concept.
Besides, this is also more about the CONCEPT of God. God is not always a proper name. Lockeownzj00 21:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the first is ridiculous, to someone who does not believe in God (or even believes in multiple gods or a specific god), "God" is not the supreme being, so the first statement is automatically false. Whereas the second statement, while you may dislike its wording, is fundamentally true regardless of the reader's personal beliefs. I for one think that just "God is the concept of a supreme being..." without the "term referring to" would be fine, but the current form probably is the least POV...-- Lord Shitzu 08:45, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
overly biased.
Gabrielsimon
09:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
How can you say what he is, then say that it's doubtful he exists?
Patrick Beverley
we have Michelangelo's painting further down, so I don't like the cropped image of "God's face" appearing in the intro. How about this (an example of Christian use of the Tetragrammaton, in the Bourges Cathedral). Or some 17th century woodcut with a hand emerging from a cloud? Showing the face in the intro seems a bit too much on the anthropomorphic side. This may also be an article that should go without any image in the intro. dab (ᛏ) 13:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Next time someone here poses with God, snap a picture. 69.92.141.242 07:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
the quotes should go to wikiquote. that's why we have wikiquote, no article should have a "quotes" section. dab (ᛏ) 05:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i put them all in wikiquote, and deleted the quote section Olleicua 22:40, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article "God" should also note the idea of "God" as a fictional or literary character in western literary and pop culture. Boyko
When did we start calling God "God"?-- Luckybeargod 16:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
think omni + potent = potency everywhere.
power means the capacity to produce effects. without the capacity to produce effects, one does not have power. omnipotence is the capacity to produce arbitrary effects everywhere. an arbitrary effect, in the dominion of diety, is the creation of a god more powerful than a given other god. the point is that absolute omnipotence is a logical absurdity. This is known, more abstractly, as Russell's paradox. Kevin Baas talk 22:42, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
===>That was me. The definition of "omnipotence" provided by dictionary.com is:
It is possible that God has an unlimited storehouse of power (the ability to do work, or strength), but not all conceivable powers/abilities/capacities. Similarly, God could have more authority than any other being, but not have utter authority to will anything that could be imagined, and He would still have all authority, because no other entity has authority over Him. At that same site, they define "omni-" as "all" not "everywhere." This is why I justify saying that some definitions (specifically, those of people who are not theologians or academic philosophers) have a misconstrual of "omnipotence" as meaning "able to do anything that can possibly be conceived." Justin (koavf) 00:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted the opening two lines to the following:
20:04, Apr 19, 2005 Paradiso had "(simplified some language)" and made it the following:
I argue that the qualified, usage-oriented definition that I've provided is better, for it allows for some of the odder usages of the term God that make Paradiso's definition false/inadequate. As for the second sentence, "However" belongs at the begining of the sentence; dangling modifiers are poor English, and it obscures the logical relation of the two sentences.
Sometimes "simple" isn't better. Emyth 23:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Reasons for edits:
Paradiso 01:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay I like progression as much as anyone, but there is no where in any of the Vedas where Brahma is called God or has the attributes of God. This is a more moderate and liberal interpretation of the Hindu religion. As far as I know there are no Brahma temples or worship areas. Unless someone can provide proof that the Hindu Formless being known as Brahma is another name for God, I will delete the passage in the next few days. mpa
Why did you call the argument silly? It is exactly as silly as the cosmological argument itself. This argument, or a rewording of it, willl return shortly, unless there is a good explanation of its removal. Nereocystis 23:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
This page is no place for counter arguments. If it comes down to it, I'd rather see all these argument summaries go, than allow a bunch of point / counter-point debate on this page. Sam Spade 23:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
The arguments for and against are very relevant to the article, but should remain summarized (as they are now) with links to the appropriate pages where they appear in more detail. Some of the arguments 'against' do seem to be a bit wordy, however. Paradiso 00:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
It seems that a short version of the argument against the Cosmological argument should go back in. Alternatively, all of the arguments on both sides could be removed, and people (and gods) can follow the links. Is this correct? The problem with Sam Spade's removal of an argument is that he removed one argument from one side only. Nereocystis 18:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
OK. How about summarizing the argument rather than deleting it? Nereocystis 23:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
nono, it isn't a violation of NPOV policy to just say the argument exists and point to its article. It would be a violation to say "there is also the great cosmological argument, which leaves atheist suckers speechless". But since we're saying that the very existence of God is disputed, there is no need to say that every argument for or against said existence is disputed too. I mean, that would seem to be too obvious for even the most cognitively challenged readers. "There is also the cosmological argument (hey, guess what, it's disputed too!"? be brief, this article is long as it is, and you can refute the argument to your heart's content on its own article. dab (ᛏ) 10:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
The current list is better, but the primary argument against a god isn't the existence of evil, at least for me. I think it would be better to list no arguments than list this as the primary argument. Nereocystis 18:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no primary argument for or against. So none should be highlighted over the others. Paradiso 01:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
This section was removed from article.
Many people who do not believe in the concept of God try to disprove him mathematically. One such proof goes as follows: Can God create a rock too big for himself to lift? If the answer is yes, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God, since He cannot lift all rocks. If the answer is no, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God due to the inability to do something.
I am not impressed with the writing here to begin with, it seems out of place since this is a counter to the telological argument, and is only concerned with a single omnipotent, perfect god. not all concepts of the idea "god"
As an aside, this is also logically absurd. The argument reduces to this: "Can anything that can not exist, exist?" or in catagorical logic: A and Not A.
Anyway, in summary, this is not the place for this, and if it is, the counter argument needs to go up, and the God article is plenty long already.-- Tznkai 15:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
it might not make god nonexistant, that whole rock thing, it might just make him or her a liar. Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:16 (UTC)
Isn't "A and Not A"=true ? That would make the answer to "Can anything that can not exist, exist?" = "yes, obviously" ~~~~ 3 July 2005 18:23 (UTC)
(A and (not A)) = False. A has to be true or false in boolean logic, and both cannot be true. By your words, it should be "no, obviously." - xxx
I think the majority of our readers will associate the term "God" to the abrahamic religions, which in chronological and philsophical origin are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. (Biblical, Kabbalistic, Trinity, Islam. Negative Theology)
The Ultimate and Hindu is a toss up to me, so I wil go with Hindu for alphabetical order. Aristotle's version is highly linked with mathametical and religion neutral philosophical views of god, so will procede imeediatly before the modern definitions. This shouldn't matter all that much, but I think it makes it a better article.-- Tznkai 30 June 2005 17:28 (UTC)
While it is true that some people believe the statements expressed in the paragraph quoted above, it's definitely not "generally agreed" fact, and should not be presented as such. Please either remove this paragraph or rewrite it to appropriately bracket it as the belief of some (preferably named) individuals, rather than as established fact. Kelly Martin July 1, 2005 03:26 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:42 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:07 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:24 (UTC)
many times throughout history "modern" scholars of the dayt were prooven wrong and had to look embarrassed for a long time... :-) as for the above edit by me, well, ican never let an insult lie, though i do not bleieve i returned one, i apologize, it just makes me raher upset when people claiom my work is not up to my best, expecially when they know nothing about me. Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:29 (UTC)
one source http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/HecateTrinity.html Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)
another source
http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:47 (UTC)
third source
http://www.sign2god.com/folders/oorsprong-3eenheid-en.html
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:50 (UTC)
There is discussion about the trinity, Christianity, and its possible influence from Paganism on the page about the Trinity. I propose that is a more appropriate article to talk about this than the page on God. - grubber 2005 July 3 12:23 (UTC)
Its very unlikely that maiden-mother-crone is connected to Judaeo-Christianity. Maiden-mother-crone is Indo-European (see Proto-Indo-European religion), wheras Judaeo-Christianity is Afro-Asiatic (see Chaldean mythology and Egyptian mythology). There very little connection deep down between these religious traditions. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 18:27 (UTC)
I suggest Gabriel move this to neo-paganism or maybe Talk:Trinity. I admire his pluck, and grace under fire. Please keep up w the interesting research Gabriel, you'll find the right place for it in time! ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 5 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
if I may, nowhere on Proto-Indo-European religion is there any stuff about a triple goddess. Nor should there be. Wicca is a religion, but it is aged about 50 years. Of course it includes older elements, mixed more or less randomly, but if you take Wiccan websites as a source, you can only take statements about the past 50 years for granted. Anything else will be completely muddled. Also on Goddess, the triple stuff is rightly confined to the Neo-Paganism section. There may have been models in Celtic religion, but hardly anything is known about them. A historical outlook on religion is instructive, but only if it is well-informed. dab (ᛏ) 13:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
wouldnt it be intersting of some religion tried to copyright God?
Gabrielsimon 08:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is an explanation why certain occurrences of 'god' are capitalised and others not. But that's a christian point of view. This sounds very dodgy to me. The english language dictates which God is the true God? This will not do. I'd say capitalise all occurrences or none. Though a problem is that capitalisation makes sense for a being, but not for a non-physical entity. Or is it just simply a matter of it being a proper noun? English is a second language to me, so I don't fully understand this, but it sounds like that solves it; just capitalise all occurrences of the word.
Also, God is never referred to in female form (as far as I can see). That issue is also addressed, saying that it is custom to use the male form, but sticking to this is really a statement about God that has no place in an encyclopedia; an article should not 'choose sides', so to say. DirkvdM 08:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Feminist sledgehammer? Sounds a bit over the top, though I agree that using (s)he all the time looks uncomfortable. But that's not as bad as implicitly stating that God is male. And atheist? What's that got to do with it?
About capitalisation. I suppose the central problem is that there is no separate name for the god of the christians. And the english language evolved in a christian environment, so I suppose we're stuck with that (I really should learn Esperanto, but then everyone else would have to too :) ). If it's a purely linguistic thing that is not specific to religion (any other examples?) I'm satisfied, though it still sounds unfair to polytheists to me. And "no gods exist, but God does" makes sense in this sense but still sounds like linguistic humbug. Something like a king referring to himself in plural.
But I've found more usages of capitalisation that this argument doesn't cover. Like He when referring to God. And the Bible, the Scripture and the New Testament. All with articles. And Jew (noun), Jewish and Jews aren't proper nouns. It seems that all these are capitalised just to make them look important (like that plural king).
And 'spurious' to you too (had to look that one up :) ). DirkvdM 19:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with feminism, it's about being neutral, not assuming too much. I suppose you're talking about the christian God, but the article is about all monotheistic gods. About any monotheistic god that may ever 'exist'. And even if there's never been a female God, there still may be one one day. And linguistically speaking, the word 'Goddess' exists, so there you go (I've even once heard this used as a 'proof' for the existence of God. but in this case it does make sense).
Ha! Here's a Descartian proof of God: "I think, therefore Yahweh" :) But seriously. Not having a proper name for the christian God (apparently that's what you're talking about again) is what's confusing. And any name will do, I'd say, no matter if it means something (many names of people also have a literal meaning). Linguistically (if I understand dab correctly), 'God' stands for any monotheistic god (should this now be capitalised because I'm talking about monotheistic gods, depite the fact that it's plural?). But to distinguish the other monotheistic gods from the christian God, they should not be capitalised. And then when talk is about the specific christian God, it should be capitalised because it's one specific 'entity'. Unless of course you say that all monotheistic gods are one and the same. But then if someone else disagrees with that you'll have to give them their way so as not to be religiously offending, because that's customary with religion because the truth can never be hoped to be objectively established, so anything must be regarded as a possible truth, just so long as someone proposes it. God, this is a mess.
I was afraid of this, and I already hinted at it. The English language is the way it is and there is nothing we can do about that. Well, of course that's not true, languages evolve all the time, but it's not for us to change it. So if the language dictates it (and I simply don't know) then that's the end of it. But still, can I then use Capitalisation whenever I Feel like It? or can i leave it out whenever i feel like it? Not so, I'd say, so the argument doesn't hold logically speaking, in which case we can still be free to leave out capitalisation, oddly enough. But if the language dictates that these specific occurrences should be capitalised (does it?) then we're stuck.
By the way, if you refer to the head of the English royal family (so in a generic way), do you also use 'he' even if 'he' happens to be a queen at the moment (pun intended)? And do you use capitalisation to distinguish this Queen from all the other queens. Even if you're talking about royal queens (of other countries)?
Assumptions, assumptions. Why should I hail from any religion? I'm Dutch! :) I resent the implication that I reason from my point of view (although nobody can fully escape that). An encyclopedia should be neutral, so when you edit it you should not let your preferences get in the way. But then that's difficult with religion because it dictates an (unprovable but) Absolute Truth. And that's why I hate religion. I may sympathise with religious beliefs but I hate any doctrine, and religious movements are the most suffocating Doctrines around. I used to think I was an atheist but didn't feel comfortable with that. Then I heard about agnosticism and thought 'Yes' that's it'. And then I read the Wikipedia article on that and it turns out I'm really a Logical Positivist (or can I be if I can be bothered to have this discussion?).
So what am I, an exoreligious anytheist? (What's any in Greek?) Here's It: I'm Me! (Capitalised!) Period. DirkvdM 09:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
TCP/IP isn't suffocating because we could easily change to another standard. Hardly anyone would mind as long as everyone uses the same thing. That's standardisation, which is a doctrine if you wish, but certainly not suffocating. I didn't mean to philosophise on the metaphysical implications of the English language. I just wasn't aware that the English language dictates all these uses of capitalisation. If it does. For all of them. And if it does, that settles it. DirkvdM 10:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
How is it there is no mention of the Devil? Even in the very extensive talk pages (7 archives!) I haven't come across a single mention of the Devil. One problem is that the Devil goes by many names (Devil, Satan, Beelzebub, the Beast and even a number (666)), so I may have missed something. But surely an article about God should have at least some mention of God's counterpart. After all, in Christianity God is (among many things) the Ultimate Judge who sends bad people to Hell, and other religions have something similar. I've made a mention, but that's just an observation involving Hell, not a real discussion/explanation of the concept. DirkvdM 09:03, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, alright then, why is that not in the article? I mean, an article about God is necessarily about religion and many religions have a Devil in some form or another. So there should at least be some mention. And of course not ony the christian Devil. By the way, could 'Devil' be used as a generic name? And, if so, by what specific name should the christian Devil then be addressed? Or is the use of an English name necesserily a reference to the christian Devil (compare the above about capitalisation)? DirkvdM 13:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Ah yes, but that's mostly about 'evil', not 'Evil' (I seem to be getting the hang of this 'proper noun' thing). In other words, it's not about an evil counterpart of God. I now see there is one discussion about Satan in archive 1, about the roles God and Satan play and if God can triumph over Satan, and one mention of Satan in the article, under 'God as Unity or Trinity' as the counterpart in dualism. But that's tucked away somewhere in the article. But, more importantly, I really meant to refer to one aspect of the christian God (and I suppose many others), which is that he is the Ultimate Judge, the one who sends people to Hell and the Devil. There is no mention in the article of the Last Judgement, the afterlife or Hell. And Heaven hardly gets mentioned either. Surely these things are quite essential to understand at least the christian God? More in general, too much is assumed. At least the intro of an encyclopedia article should not assume any previous knowledge on the subject. Such as that a God is something or someone that is believed in and that that constitutes a religion and that there may be one or more Gods in a religion. Sounds obvious, but it cannot be assumed to be know. And it's so central that I'd put it in the intro.
But to get back to the subject, I'd say a list of possible characteristcs a God could have would be in place. Such as creator, destroyer, judge, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, (omni)benevolent or malevolent, sovereign, transcendent or immanent (the transcentdent link doesn't really help - God, this article needs work), infinitely simple, outside of time. Have I missed anything? Most of these are mentioned, but spread all over the article. I'd say this list should be in the introduction. And I'd mention that there may be several of these qualities in one God or they may be spread over several Gods, each with one of these characteristics (then again, this article is about montheism, but then why isn't that the title?). And God may be a person or an essence (or what should I call that?). Anything else?
And another thing. I'd combine the list that is now in the intro with the theology section and move that to the beginning of the body of the article.
DirkvdM 18:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
69.202.68.180 put the folowing comment in the introduction, after the point that starts with "The common definition of God assumes...". Of course, this belongs in the talk pages (speaking of 'this is not the place'....), so here it is: DirkvdM 07:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Redirecting Supreme Being to here, and associating supreme deity with monotheism requires some explanation which a mere tag will not satisfy. Will hack, but the line between poly- and mono- theism, and the relative value judgements made, are largely cultural distinctions, and this needs to be a fundamental part of the article. - SV| t 15:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have asked many christians this question. Their response is "He created himself." That does not make sense. What or who created God?
An epistemological idealist's answer is: an infinity of Gods created God, or that God has always existed. I supplant God for Universe (always existed and will always exist), and I view theism as the personification of (unfathomable and incomprehensible) infinity in the finite human mind. El_C 09:04, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
scientists seem to diagree with that fundamentally.... Gabrielsimon 09:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Which scientists and with what, and to whom is that directed to? El_C 09:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I second that, unless someone can come with an answer that comes from some established religion. Such as the Baha'i faith mentioned above? DirkvdM 16:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the point is that as long as God and/or the universe is an exception to the rule, then one cannot hold that the existence of a creation necessarily implies the existence of a creator. Therefore, the existence of humans, oxygen, life, Earth, the Grand Canyon, the concept of God, miracles, (etc., etc., take your pick) does not necessarily imply the existence of a creator. -- Serge 23:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I am the budda. God (a common word we can understand together) was not created. God has always existed, and will continue to exist forever. All matter in the universe has always existed, and will continue to exist forever. All energy in the universe has always existed, and will continue to exist forever
Ya know what you Atheist freak? I think that God has always been in the universe. He could be anything. This universese could be a pitri dish in a super large world, and God is some scientist. We really don't know. God i anything you want him to be. God bless America!-- The Republican 00:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
will someone move this to "God(monotheistic)" as it is more accurate than "God" since "God" refures to a heck of a lot more? This name causes an issue on the God Category page.
Omg, the article has been moved without warning, again. You cannot move the article without discussing first, and pondering the implications of the move. This is a major article for $DEITY's sake. dab (ᛏ) 15:24, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
sorry, DirkvdM, I see your proposal above. Something like that will be reasonable, but we have to be clear how exactly the material should be distributed. E.g. what about the Monotheism article. Also Singular God does not equal Monotheism, these should remain distinct articles. God could be a summary article, with a section on monotheistic God and a main article Singular God. Anyway, this has been discussed before, and it will be difficult to get consensus for a change. dab (ᛏ) 15:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
right. the situation can be 'restructured', but we need a clean plan for that. Someody just blundering in and moving stuff around will not do. This is not only about article titles, but about how to distribute material among articles. I suggest we move this back to God for now, and wait for coherent proposals. Such as, what exactly will be the focus of God once this is at God (monotheism)? Shall articles be merged? Broken up? The consensus so far is to have monotheistic God at God, with clear pointers to other meanings of the term. I am open to changing that. God can be Wikipedia:Summary style, with lots of links to subarticles, for example. dab (ᛏ) 09:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Wait a second... why should this Article be God? It would be much more appropriate to havce God be a disambig page, and this one should be God (monotheistic) or God (abrahamic), as it is just one of many gods, and god articles. FestivalOfSouls 16:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying you should make a clean proposal first, as there will be a lot of repercussions. This article has been on God for months, and a great many articles rely on this. Right. This article is about Singular God, God (monotheistic). It could be moved to either. Then we could move Deity here. Deity will be the disambiguation article, i.e. deity will include a short paragraph on Singular God, on Henotheism, Goddesses, and what not. I would be happy with that, but there are editors who will edit-war until God is back to treating Singular God. You better go and ask Sam Spade ( talk · contribs) what he thinks now, as you are sure to hear his opinion sooner or later. dab (ᛏ) 18:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Just a thought: aside from whether people should do so, appealing to God or talking about God or even god usually refers to the abrahamic monotheistic God, and in general, any monotheistic god. The redirects usually go to either a disambig, or to the most useful (most commonly wanted) article a reader wants.--
Tznkai
18:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
That very same article puts AAVE at Ebonics as 99.9% of the people looking for AAVE will type in Ebonics. Go ask what they think about THAT!
Jayjg (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
as long as this article is about Singular God, the mythology category is mistaken: Individual gods, even YHWH Holy Spirit etc. may have mythological components, but pure monotheism means stripping God of all mythological qualities, I suppose (although maybe C. S. Lewis would disagree); can you have pure, philosphical monotheism as long as your God retains mythological elements? I don't know, not in theory, I suppose, although of course in practice every notion of God is affected by mythology. dab (ᛏ) 18:10, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I made the extensive definition list it's own section to avoid having to scoll down to see a Table Of Contents. I'm thinking of moving "conseptions of god its own article to deal with the size issues of this page. If get no objection I will. Also what is the normal method of moving disscussion pages in these situations. The discussion is mixed and there may be sections of the disscussion about conceptions and about other topics and it may not be very clear. Any suggestions? Direct messages to my talk page. Olleicua 21:07, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
why do we have a "mythology" section now? this article is too long already. move to Elohim or YHWH, or, well, Mythology. dab 12:46, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In a religious studies class currently and reading the Qur'an. They do not choose to translate Allah into God, even though it should translate directly. Even speaking to them, they refer to the Christian god as "God" (even though they express that they are the same thing just one is 'misinterpreted) and their god as "Allah". Not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but it seems the definitions are missing something...
Jayon 16:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the religions are historically related to each other. However, they have mutually exclusive concepts of God; some think God exists in three persons (i.e. as a Trinity), others think this is an impossible or blasphemous or polytheistic idea. Very very few people think that both conceptions of God can be equally valid at the same time, at least among those who genuinely believe that a deity exists. Thus there has been some internal debate among Jews and Muslims concerning whether Christians are even monotheistic. Wesley 17:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In looking at this disscussion I expected to see a lengthy edit war. Said war's absence is a clear sign of wikipedia's integrity and maturity. As I understand it, god has two meanings, the proper noun, god which refers to the judeo-christian god as well as allah and there is the regular noun. Regardless of whether there actually are any gods besides the judeo-christian one, the noun is still a valid noun. the etymology section seems rather biased on this point (also seeming to insinuate that paganism is dead). as example, even though lightsabers may not actually exist, we should not say dispute the credibility of the noun, 'lightsaber'. I'll leave this for a month to see if anyone objects and then alter it if there are no objections. Also a note monotheism is a very small portion of the worlds religeous community. It's all fine and good to believe something but please don't put it in an encyclopedia. Olleicua 03:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Who is disputing what, and why?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:56, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I slipped the words "a term referring to" into the first line defining another controversial encyclpedic entry and immediately it was reverted... But here, the author has used and even longer similar qualifying phrase, "a term referring to the concept of" to define "God." "God is a term referring to the concept of a Supreme Being..." I inlcuded thisin POV, which I guess means "political correct version, though I dont know what the O stands for in P.O.V. and Non P.O.V.? Just a curiosity, not a complaint, and more about other pages than this one which to me seems quite rightly to start with the definition of the word as a word before stating absolutes.-- T. Mc. 00:20, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
this sectoin of the article seems to me to be open to some interpretation, did Clarke mean in the quote that was litteraly create God in some physical form or that he is a construct of collective human beleif? this quote seems like the surrounding context would clear that up.
some mortals can become gods in some religions nad mythologies.
Gabrielsimon
08:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
What valid proof of God is there?
I am
I think I'll interject some conventional HGTTG wisdom into the issue. You wish to proove that God exists? Suppose you find irrefutable proof of god's existance. Well proof removes faith. And without faith god no longer exists. And (to quote Douglas Adams directly) God disapears in a puff of logic! Olleicua 22:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently edits by Jordanblue added a reference to Rael and its website directly in the article. I personally think that it should not belong the main article but (if really necessary) in the links section. What do you think? Nova77 17:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
hey this article (and this talk page:)) reads good enough now to be nominated as a featured article - too drowsy to do it now and tomorrow weekend chores backlog to be cleared so dont know if i'll remeber. blokes*, think about nominating this.
Not even close. Request for peer review, maybe. Inserting a copyedit tag would be more like it... Blair P. Houghton 21:08, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
God is the supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.
or
God is a term referring to the concept of a supreme being, generally believed to be ruler or creator of, and/or immanent within, the universe.
God = supreme being. You can say God doesn't exist, or that a supreme being doesn't exist, but you can't say God isn't a supreme being. And "a term referring to the concept of a..." is a joke. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:37, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How is it a joke? When you say, "love refers to the concept of human affection," it's perfectly normal--you don't say, "love is great," or "love is human compassion." Because even though were are trying to be NPOV, a statement that is seemingly objective like "God is" really isn't. Do you study languages? I do. When you define a word in another language in, let's say, English, you say, "Ai means love." You do not say "Ai is love." Besides it being grammatically clunky, it is hard to exact ambiguous concepts like that.
You can not say "God is the supreme being" as the article stated in its earlier form. This is inherently POV. "God" isn't a supreme being. God is a word to describe this concept.
Besides, this is also more about the CONCEPT of God. God is not always a proper name. Lockeownzj00 21:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the first is ridiculous, to someone who does not believe in God (or even believes in multiple gods or a specific god), "God" is not the supreme being, so the first statement is automatically false. Whereas the second statement, while you may dislike its wording, is fundamentally true regardless of the reader's personal beliefs. I for one think that just "God is the concept of a supreme being..." without the "term referring to" would be fine, but the current form probably is the least POV...-- Lord Shitzu 08:45, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
overly biased.
Gabrielsimon
09:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
How can you say what he is, then say that it's doubtful he exists?
Patrick Beverley
we have Michelangelo's painting further down, so I don't like the cropped image of "God's face" appearing in the intro. How about this (an example of Christian use of the Tetragrammaton, in the Bourges Cathedral). Or some 17th century woodcut with a hand emerging from a cloud? Showing the face in the intro seems a bit too much on the anthropomorphic side. This may also be an article that should go without any image in the intro. dab (ᛏ) 13:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Next time someone here poses with God, snap a picture. 69.92.141.242 07:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
the quotes should go to wikiquote. that's why we have wikiquote, no article should have a "quotes" section. dab (ᛏ) 05:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
i put them all in wikiquote, and deleted the quote section Olleicua 22:40, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article "God" should also note the idea of "God" as a fictional or literary character in western literary and pop culture. Boyko
When did we start calling God "God"?-- Luckybeargod 16:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
think omni + potent = potency everywhere.
power means the capacity to produce effects. without the capacity to produce effects, one does not have power. omnipotence is the capacity to produce arbitrary effects everywhere. an arbitrary effect, in the dominion of diety, is the creation of a god more powerful than a given other god. the point is that absolute omnipotence is a logical absurdity. This is known, more abstractly, as Russell's paradox. Kevin Baas talk 22:42, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
===>That was me. The definition of "omnipotence" provided by dictionary.com is:
It is possible that God has an unlimited storehouse of power (the ability to do work, or strength), but not all conceivable powers/abilities/capacities. Similarly, God could have more authority than any other being, but not have utter authority to will anything that could be imagined, and He would still have all authority, because no other entity has authority over Him. At that same site, they define "omni-" as "all" not "everywhere." This is why I justify saying that some definitions (specifically, those of people who are not theologians or academic philosophers) have a misconstrual of "omnipotence" as meaning "able to do anything that can possibly be conceived." Justin (koavf) 00:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted the opening two lines to the following:
20:04, Apr 19, 2005 Paradiso had "(simplified some language)" and made it the following:
I argue that the qualified, usage-oriented definition that I've provided is better, for it allows for some of the odder usages of the term God that make Paradiso's definition false/inadequate. As for the second sentence, "However" belongs at the begining of the sentence; dangling modifiers are poor English, and it obscures the logical relation of the two sentences.
Sometimes "simple" isn't better. Emyth 23:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Reasons for edits:
Paradiso 01:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay I like progression as much as anyone, but there is no where in any of the Vedas where Brahma is called God or has the attributes of God. This is a more moderate and liberal interpretation of the Hindu religion. As far as I know there are no Brahma temples or worship areas. Unless someone can provide proof that the Hindu Formless being known as Brahma is another name for God, I will delete the passage in the next few days. mpa
Why did you call the argument silly? It is exactly as silly as the cosmological argument itself. This argument, or a rewording of it, willl return shortly, unless there is a good explanation of its removal. Nereocystis 23:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
This page is no place for counter arguments. If it comes down to it, I'd rather see all these argument summaries go, than allow a bunch of point / counter-point debate on this page. Sam Spade 23:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
The arguments for and against are very relevant to the article, but should remain summarized (as they are now) with links to the appropriate pages where they appear in more detail. Some of the arguments 'against' do seem to be a bit wordy, however. Paradiso 00:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
It seems that a short version of the argument against the Cosmological argument should go back in. Alternatively, all of the arguments on both sides could be removed, and people (and gods) can follow the links. Is this correct? The problem with Sam Spade's removal of an argument is that he removed one argument from one side only. Nereocystis 18:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
OK. How about summarizing the argument rather than deleting it? Nereocystis 23:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
nono, it isn't a violation of NPOV policy to just say the argument exists and point to its article. It would be a violation to say "there is also the great cosmological argument, which leaves atheist suckers speechless". But since we're saying that the very existence of God is disputed, there is no need to say that every argument for or against said existence is disputed too. I mean, that would seem to be too obvious for even the most cognitively challenged readers. "There is also the cosmological argument (hey, guess what, it's disputed too!"? be brief, this article is long as it is, and you can refute the argument to your heart's content on its own article. dab (ᛏ) 10:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
The current list is better, but the primary argument against a god isn't the existence of evil, at least for me. I think it would be better to list no arguments than list this as the primary argument. Nereocystis 18:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
There is no primary argument for or against. So none should be highlighted over the others. Paradiso 01:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
This section was removed from article.
Many people who do not believe in the concept of God try to disprove him mathematically. One such proof goes as follows: Can God create a rock too big for himself to lift? If the answer is yes, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God, since He cannot lift all rocks. If the answer is no, then He is not perfect, and therefore not God due to the inability to do something.
I am not impressed with the writing here to begin with, it seems out of place since this is a counter to the telological argument, and is only concerned with a single omnipotent, perfect god. not all concepts of the idea "god"
As an aside, this is also logically absurd. The argument reduces to this: "Can anything that can not exist, exist?" or in catagorical logic: A and Not A.
Anyway, in summary, this is not the place for this, and if it is, the counter argument needs to go up, and the God article is plenty long already.-- Tznkai 15:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
it might not make god nonexistant, that whole rock thing, it might just make him or her a liar. Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:16 (UTC)
Isn't "A and Not A"=true ? That would make the answer to "Can anything that can not exist, exist?" = "yes, obviously" ~~~~ 3 July 2005 18:23 (UTC)
(A and (not A)) = False. A has to be true or false in boolean logic, and both cannot be true. By your words, it should be "no, obviously." - xxx
I think the majority of our readers will associate the term "God" to the abrahamic religions, which in chronological and philsophical origin are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. (Biblical, Kabbalistic, Trinity, Islam. Negative Theology)
The Ultimate and Hindu is a toss up to me, so I wil go with Hindu for alphabetical order. Aristotle's version is highly linked with mathametical and religion neutral philosophical views of god, so will procede imeediatly before the modern definitions. This shouldn't matter all that much, but I think it makes it a better article.-- Tznkai 30 June 2005 17:28 (UTC)
While it is true that some people believe the statements expressed in the paragraph quoted above, it's definitely not "generally agreed" fact, and should not be presented as such. Please either remove this paragraph or rewrite it to appropriately bracket it as the belief of some (preferably named) individuals, rather than as established fact. Kelly Martin July 1, 2005 03:26 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:42 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:07 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:24 (UTC)
many times throughout history "modern" scholars of the dayt were prooven wrong and had to look embarrassed for a long time... :-) as for the above edit by me, well, ican never let an insult lie, though i do not bleieve i returned one, i apologize, it just makes me raher upset when people claiom my work is not up to my best, expecially when they know nothing about me. Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 04:29 (UTC)
one source http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/HecateTrinity.html Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)
another source
http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:47 (UTC)
third source
http://www.sign2god.com/folders/oorsprong-3eenheid-en.html
Gabrielsimon 3 July 2005 03:50 (UTC)
There is discussion about the trinity, Christianity, and its possible influence from Paganism on the page about the Trinity. I propose that is a more appropriate article to talk about this than the page on God. - grubber 2005 July 3 12:23 (UTC)
Its very unlikely that maiden-mother-crone is connected to Judaeo-Christianity. Maiden-mother-crone is Indo-European (see Proto-Indo-European religion), wheras Judaeo-Christianity is Afro-Asiatic (see Chaldean mythology and Egyptian mythology). There very little connection deep down between these religious traditions. ~~~~ 3 July 2005 18:27 (UTC)
I suggest Gabriel move this to neo-paganism or maybe Talk:Trinity. I admire his pluck, and grace under fire. Please keep up w the interesting research Gabriel, you'll find the right place for it in time! ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 5 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
if I may, nowhere on Proto-Indo-European religion is there any stuff about a triple goddess. Nor should there be. Wicca is a religion, but it is aged about 50 years. Of course it includes older elements, mixed more or less randomly, but if you take Wiccan websites as a source, you can only take statements about the past 50 years for granted. Anything else will be completely muddled. Also on Goddess, the triple stuff is rightly confined to the Neo-Paganism section. There may have been models in Celtic religion, but hardly anything is known about them. A historical outlook on religion is instructive, but only if it is well-informed. dab (ᛏ) 13:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
wouldnt it be intersting of some religion tried to copyright God?
Gabrielsimon 08:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is an explanation why certain occurrences of 'god' are capitalised and others not. But that's a christian point of view. This sounds very dodgy to me. The english language dictates which God is the true God? This will not do. I'd say capitalise all occurrences or none. Though a problem is that capitalisation makes sense for a being, but not for a non-physical entity. Or is it just simply a matter of it being a proper noun? English is a second language to me, so I don't fully understand this, but it sounds like that solves it; just capitalise all occurrences of the word.
Also, God is never referred to in female form (as far as I can see). That issue is also addressed, saying that it is custom to use the male form, but sticking to this is really a statement about God that has no place in an encyclopedia; an article should not 'choose sides', so to say. DirkvdM 08:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Feminist sledgehammer? Sounds a bit over the top, though I agree that using (s)he all the time looks uncomfortable. But that's not as bad as implicitly stating that God is male. And atheist? What's that got to do with it?
About capitalisation. I suppose the central problem is that there is no separate name for the god of the christians. And the english language evolved in a christian environment, so I suppose we're stuck with that (I really should learn Esperanto, but then everyone else would have to too :) ). If it's a purely linguistic thing that is not specific to religion (any other examples?) I'm satisfied, though it still sounds unfair to polytheists to me. And "no gods exist, but God does" makes sense in this sense but still sounds like linguistic humbug. Something like a king referring to himself in plural.
But I've found more usages of capitalisation that this argument doesn't cover. Like He when referring to God. And the Bible, the Scripture and the New Testament. All with articles. And Jew (noun), Jewish and Jews aren't proper nouns. It seems that all these are capitalised just to make them look important (like that plural king).
And 'spurious' to you too (had to look that one up :) ). DirkvdM 19:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with feminism, it's about being neutral, not assuming too much. I suppose you're talking about the christian God, but the article is about all monotheistic gods. About any monotheistic god that may ever 'exist'. And even if there's never been a female God, there still may be one one day. And linguistically speaking, the word 'Goddess' exists, so there you go (I've even once heard this used as a 'proof' for the existence of God. but in this case it does make sense).
Ha! Here's a Descartian proof of God: "I think, therefore Yahweh" :) But seriously. Not having a proper name for the christian God (apparently that's what you're talking about again) is what's confusing. And any name will do, I'd say, no matter if it means something (many names of people also have a literal meaning). Linguistically (if I understand dab correctly), 'God' stands for any monotheistic god (should this now be capitalised because I'm talking about monotheistic gods, depite the fact that it's plural?). But to distinguish the other monotheistic gods from the christian God, they should not be capitalised. And then when talk is about the specific christian God, it should be capitalised because it's one specific 'entity'. Unless of course you say that all monotheistic gods are one and the same. But then if someone else disagrees with that you'll have to give them their way so as not to be religiously offending, because that's customary with religion because the truth can never be hoped to be objectively established, so anything must be regarded as a possible truth, just so long as someone proposes it. God, this is a mess.
I was afraid of this, and I already hinted at it. The English language is the way it is and there is nothing we can do about that. Well, of course that's not true, languages evolve all the time, but it's not for us to change it. So if the language dictates it (and I simply don't know) then that's the end of it. But still, can I then use Capitalisation whenever I Feel like It? or can i leave it out whenever i feel like it? Not so, I'd say, so the argument doesn't hold logically speaking, in which case we can still be free to leave out capitalisation, oddly enough. But if the language dictates that these specific occurrences should be capitalised (does it?) then we're stuck.
By the way, if you refer to the head of the English royal family (so in a generic way), do you also use 'he' even if 'he' happens to be a queen at the moment (pun intended)? And do you use capitalisation to distinguish this Queen from all the other queens. Even if you're talking about royal queens (of other countries)?
Assumptions, assumptions. Why should I hail from any religion? I'm Dutch! :) I resent the implication that I reason from my point of view (although nobody can fully escape that). An encyclopedia should be neutral, so when you edit it you should not let your preferences get in the way. But then that's difficult with religion because it dictates an (unprovable but) Absolute Truth. And that's why I hate religion. I may sympathise with religious beliefs but I hate any doctrine, and religious movements are the most suffocating Doctrines around. I used to think I was an atheist but didn't feel comfortable with that. Then I heard about agnosticism and thought 'Yes' that's it'. And then I read the Wikipedia article on that and it turns out I'm really a Logical Positivist (or can I be if I can be bothered to have this discussion?).
So what am I, an exoreligious anytheist? (What's any in Greek?) Here's It: I'm Me! (Capitalised!) Period. DirkvdM 09:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
TCP/IP isn't suffocating because we could easily change to another standard. Hardly anyone would mind as long as everyone uses the same thing. That's standardisation, which is a doctrine if you wish, but certainly not suffocating. I didn't mean to philosophise on the metaphysical implications of the English language. I just wasn't aware that the English language dictates all these uses of capitalisation. If it does. For all of them. And if it does, that settles it. DirkvdM 10:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
How is it there is no mention of the Devil? Even in the very extensive talk pages (7 archives!) I haven't come across a single mention of the Devil. One problem is that the Devil goes by many names (Devil, Satan, Beelzebub, the Beast and even a number (666)), so I may have missed something. But surely an article about God should have at least some mention of God's counterpart. After all, in Christianity God is (among many things) the Ultimate Judge who sends bad people to Hell, and other religions have something similar. I've made a mention, but that's just an observation involving Hell, not a real discussion/explanation of the concept. DirkvdM 09:03, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, alright then, why is that not in the article? I mean, an article about God is necessarily about religion and many religions have a Devil in some form or another. So there should at least be some mention. And of course not ony the christian Devil. By the way, could 'Devil' be used as a generic name? And, if so, by what specific name should the christian Devil then be addressed? Or is the use of an English name necesserily a reference to the christian Devil (compare the above about capitalisation)? DirkvdM 13:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Ah yes, but that's mostly about 'evil', not 'Evil' (I seem to be getting the hang of this 'proper noun' thing). In other words, it's not about an evil counterpart of God. I now see there is one discussion about Satan in archive 1, about the roles God and Satan play and if God can triumph over Satan, and one mention of Satan in the article, under 'God as Unity or Trinity' as the counterpart in dualism. But that's tucked away somewhere in the article. But, more importantly, I really meant to refer to one aspect of the christian God (and I suppose many others), which is that he is the Ultimate Judge, the one who sends people to Hell and the Devil. There is no mention in the article of the Last Judgement, the afterlife or Hell. And Heaven hardly gets mentioned either. Surely these things are quite essential to understand at least the christian God? More in general, too much is assumed. At least the intro of an encyclopedia article should not assume any previous knowledge on the subject. Such as that a God is something or someone that is believed in and that that constitutes a religion and that there may be one or more Gods in a religion. Sounds obvious, but it cannot be assumed to be know. And it's so central that I'd put it in the intro.
But to get back to the subject, I'd say a list of possible characteristcs a God could have would be in place. Such as creator, destroyer, judge, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, (omni)benevolent or malevolent, sovereign, transcendent or immanent (the transcentdent link doesn't really help - God, this article needs work), infinitely simple, outside of time. Have I missed anything? Most of these are mentioned, but spread all over the article. I'd say this list should be in the introduction. And I'd mention that there may be several of these qualities in one God or they may be spread over several Gods, each with one of these characteristics (then again, this article is about montheism, but then why isn't that the title?). And God may be a person or an essence (or what should I call that?). Anything else?
And another thing. I'd combine the list that is now in the intro with the theology section and move that to the beginning of the body of the article.
DirkvdM 18:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
69.202.68.180 put the folowing comment in the introduction, after the point that starts with "The common definition of God assumes...". Of course, this belongs in the talk pages (speaking of 'this is not the place'....), so here it is: DirkvdM 07:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Redirecting Supreme Being to here, and associating supreme deity with monotheism requires some explanation which a mere tag will not satisfy. Will hack, but the line between poly- and mono- theism, and the relative value judgements made, are largely cultural distinctions, and this needs to be a fundamental part of the article. - SV| t 15:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have asked many christians this question. Their response is "He created himself." That does not make sense. What or who created God?
An epistemological idealist's answer is: an infinity of Gods created God, or that God has always existed. I supplant God for Universe (always existed and will always exist), and I view theism as the personification of (unfathomable and incomprehensible) infinity in the finite human mind. El_C 09:04, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
scientists seem to diagree with that fundamentally.... Gabrielsimon 09:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Which scientists and with what, and to whom is that directed to? El_C 09:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I second that, unless someone can come with an answer that comes from some established religion. Such as the Baha'i faith mentioned above? DirkvdM 16:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the point is that as long as God and/or the universe is an exception to the rule, then one cannot hold that the existence of a creation necessarily implies the existence of a creator. Therefore, the existence of humans, oxygen, life, Earth, the Grand Canyon, the concept of God, miracles, (etc., etc., take your pick) does not necessarily imply the existence of a creator. -- Serge 23:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I am the budda. God (a common word we can understand together) was not created. God has always existed, and will continue to exist forever. All matter in the universe has always existed, and will continue to exist forever. All energy in the universe has always existed, and will continue to exist forever
Ya know what you Atheist freak? I think that God has always been in the universe. He could be anything. This universese could be a pitri dish in a super large world, and God is some scientist. We really don't know. God i anything you want him to be. God bless America!-- The Republican 00:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
will someone move this to "God(monotheistic)" as it is more accurate than "God" since "God" refures to a heck of a lot more? This name causes an issue on the God Category page.
Omg, the article has been moved without warning, again. You cannot move the article without discussing first, and pondering the implications of the move. This is a major article for $DEITY's sake. dab (ᛏ) 15:24, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
sorry, DirkvdM, I see your proposal above. Something like that will be reasonable, but we have to be clear how exactly the material should be distributed. E.g. what about the Monotheism article. Also Singular God does not equal Monotheism, these should remain distinct articles. God could be a summary article, with a section on monotheistic God and a main article Singular God. Anyway, this has been discussed before, and it will be difficult to get consensus for a change. dab (ᛏ) 15:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
right. the situation can be 'restructured', but we need a clean plan for that. Someody just blundering in and moving stuff around will not do. This is not only about article titles, but about how to distribute material among articles. I suggest we move this back to God for now, and wait for coherent proposals. Such as, what exactly will be the focus of God once this is at God (monotheism)? Shall articles be merged? Broken up? The consensus so far is to have monotheistic God at God, with clear pointers to other meanings of the term. I am open to changing that. God can be Wikipedia:Summary style, with lots of links to subarticles, for example. dab (ᛏ) 09:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Wait a second... why should this Article be God? It would be much more appropriate to havce God be a disambig page, and this one should be God (monotheistic) or God (abrahamic), as it is just one of many gods, and god articles. FestivalOfSouls 16:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying you should make a clean proposal first, as there will be a lot of repercussions. This article has been on God for months, and a great many articles rely on this. Right. This article is about Singular God, God (monotheistic). It could be moved to either. Then we could move Deity here. Deity will be the disambiguation article, i.e. deity will include a short paragraph on Singular God, on Henotheism, Goddesses, and what not. I would be happy with that, but there are editors who will edit-war until God is back to treating Singular God. You better go and ask Sam Spade ( talk · contribs) what he thinks now, as you are sure to hear his opinion sooner or later. dab (ᛏ) 18:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Just a thought: aside from whether people should do so, appealing to God or talking about God or even god usually refers to the abrahamic monotheistic God, and in general, any monotheistic god. The redirects usually go to either a disambig, or to the most useful (most commonly wanted) article a reader wants.--
Tznkai
18:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
That very same article puts AAVE at Ebonics as 99.9% of the people looking for AAVE will type in Ebonics. Go ask what they think about THAT!
Jayjg (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
as long as this article is about Singular God, the mythology category is mistaken: Individual gods, even YHWH Holy Spirit etc. may have mythological components, but pure monotheism means stripping God of all mythological qualities, I suppose (although maybe C. S. Lewis would disagree); can you have pure, philosphical monotheism as long as your God retains mythological elements? I don't know, not in theory, I suppose, although of course in practice every notion of God is affected by mythology. dab (ᛏ) 18:10, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I made the extensive definition list it's own section to avoid having to scoll down to see a Table Of Contents. I'm thinking of moving "conseptions of god its own article to deal with the size issues of this page. If get no objection I will. Also what is the normal method of moving disscussion pages in these situations. The discussion is mixed and there may be sections of the disscussion about conceptions and about other topics and it may not be very clear. Any suggestions? Direct messages to my talk page. Olleicua 21:07, 20 August 2005 (UTC)