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The glossary now goes on a bit about "Ci devant nobility": perhaps this merits an article rather than merely a long glossary entry? Also, I'm not at all sure I agree with the claim that "The term is rather derogatory, and typically used by people hostile to the nobility." In Napoleonic times, there was a certain cachet to being ci devant nobility: as I understand it, the snobs rated these titles more highly than the newly minted Napoleonic noble titles (all at least nominally connected to territories outside of France). To be a ci devant nobleman meant you were the real thing. - Jmabel | Talk 08:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps this is a posterior usage, with a reverted meaning. I am currently studying the French revolution and, as a French, I have heard much about it (what with national pride and all this nonsense), and I have never heard about a positive meaning of "ci-devant", either during the Empire or any other period. I am positive that the first apparition dates from 1790, and had a derogatory meaning. As a quotation, we can observe the famous song "Ah ! Ca ira, ça ira, ça ira", sung by the revolutionaries. A reference is made to the "ci-devant comte" who is now "quite mute", because, well, the Revolution made him shut his aristocratic mouth. Also, there is this famous expression from the time of the Revolution, les ci-devants de Coblence, Coblence being the town where many exiled aristocrats had gathered to plot against the Revolution. This designation was, of course, derogatory, and meant to stress the fact that these exiles where just bittered traitors who clinged to titles no longer legitimate.
As for the difference between nobility from before 1789 and from after 1805, the term Noblesse d'Empire ("Empire nobility") is often used, and has a derogatory meaning, even today (for people who care about nobility, that is). But, apart from the generic Vieille Noblesse ("Old Nobility"), I have never heard of any positive term applying to before-1789 nobility.
Tovarich1917
13:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
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Included today because that term did originate during this revolution (although the idea for this machine came earlier). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.47 ( talk) 19:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
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The glossary now goes on a bit about "Ci devant nobility": perhaps this merits an article rather than merely a long glossary entry? Also, I'm not at all sure I agree with the claim that "The term is rather derogatory, and typically used by people hostile to the nobility." In Napoleonic times, there was a certain cachet to being ci devant nobility: as I understand it, the snobs rated these titles more highly than the newly minted Napoleonic noble titles (all at least nominally connected to territories outside of France). To be a ci devant nobleman meant you were the real thing. - Jmabel | Talk 08:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps this is a posterior usage, with a reverted meaning. I am currently studying the French revolution and, as a French, I have heard much about it (what with national pride and all this nonsense), and I have never heard about a positive meaning of "ci-devant", either during the Empire or any other period. I am positive that the first apparition dates from 1790, and had a derogatory meaning. As a quotation, we can observe the famous song "Ah ! Ca ira, ça ira, ça ira", sung by the revolutionaries. A reference is made to the "ci-devant comte" who is now "quite mute", because, well, the Revolution made him shut his aristocratic mouth. Also, there is this famous expression from the time of the Revolution, les ci-devants de Coblence, Coblence being the town where many exiled aristocrats had gathered to plot against the Revolution. This designation was, of course, derogatory, and meant to stress the fact that these exiles where just bittered traitors who clinged to titles no longer legitimate.
As for the difference between nobility from before 1789 and from after 1805, the term Noblesse d'Empire ("Empire nobility") is often used, and has a derogatory meaning, even today (for people who care about nobility, that is). But, apart from the generic Vieille Noblesse ("Old Nobility"), I have never heard of any positive term applying to before-1789 nobility.
Tovarich1917
13:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page has been
transwikied to
Wiktionary. The article has content that is useful at Wiktionary. Therefore the article can be found at either here or here ( logs 1 logs 2.) Note: This means that the article has been copied to the Wiktionary Transwiki namespace for evaluation and formatting. It does not mean that the article is in the Wiktionary main namespace, or that it has been removed from Wikipedia's. Furthermore, the Wiktionarians might delete the article from Wiktionary if they do not find it to be appropriate for the Wiktionary. Removing this tag will usually trigger CopyToWiktionaryBot to re-transwiki the entry. This article should have been removed from Category:Copy to Wiktionary and should not be re-added there. |
-- CopyToWiktionaryBot 23:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Included today because that term did originate during this revolution (although the idea for this machine came earlier). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.47 ( talk) 19:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)