I think it's worth noting that I have not played these games, so I am very much coming to this with fresh eyes.
"While he is still weak in the Wii version a more difficult incarnation exists in that game which caused multiple critics to take notice." This is a rather unweildy sentence, I am not sure I know what it means. There are two versions of the character on the game, one of which isn't as weak as usual?
"He was originally designed by Shigeru Miyamoto in the arcade game, by Makoto Wada in the NES game, and by Eddie Viser in the Wii game." He can't really be "originally" designed by all three.
"Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser" I don't think this is the best way of saying this- "redesigned", maybe, but note the game for which he was redesigned.
The history section comes across as a little choppy- you're also throwing a lot of stuff together. Design, development, role in the games... "Glass Joe is a French boxer, hailing from Paris, France. He was designed by Makoto Wada in the NES version. Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser. He is portrayed by Christian Bernard in the Wii Punch-Out!!." Four short sentences, all saying very different things.
"G4TV's "jmanalang" referenced knocking out Glass Joe as an important aspect of his status as a hardcore gamer.[9]" Seems a little silly as the first thing to mention. Presumably, this is a joke?
"Wired's Chris Kohler used the croissants as an example of how the game enhanced the ethnic stereotypes found in previous games." What croissants? What game?
"Glass Joe is from France, so of course he sips espressos before his fights, and when he gets knocked out, baguettes literally fly out of his head" Why's this satire? If what he's writing actually happens in the game... Or is he trying to make a comment on the fact the game uses the most obvious French stereotypes?
"Giant Bomb's Ryan Davis felt that someone would have to have a sour disposition to take offense to seeing croissants coming from Glass Joe.[21] GameDaily's Chris Buffa mentioned him while discussing Punch-Out!!'s entry in the list of culturally insensitive video games as an example of how its stereotypes can be viewed as either "funny or insulting".[22]" If you merge these two sentences (preferably switching them around) you can more effectively use them to contrast each other.
"the fight with Mike Tyson" Same game? The link is to the article on the actual boxer. I assumed from the fact that Glass Joe was made up, they all would be?
Again, the flow in the section on his weakness is somewhat lacking. It comes across as a little choppy- just fact. fact. fact. with little linking them together. Just as a for instance, you could contrast those who praise the fact he's a good opener, giving people a sense of achievement, with those who say he gives a "false sense of familiarity", rather than just listing them both as unrelated facts at different ends of the section.
I'm not sure we need every example of how the name has been used in reviews and such. Just state that it has been, then give maybe one or two examples?
"Analysis" isn't the right name for that section... It's essentially about the name, and there's some stuff on the name earlier, so perhaps it could be renamed to reflect that? And perhaps placed as a subsection of cultural impact? I don't know, I'm thinking aloud, but it doesn't quite work as it is.
I think I agree with the need for two non-free images.
File:Glass Joe 1.jpg has a rather weak (but passable) rationale, but it certainly needs to be downsized considerably.
Same for Crispy Gamer (Teti, John (2009-07-06). "One and Done: Nine Videogame Characters Who Were Never Heard From Again". Crispy Gamer. Retrieved 2010-08-25.)
Crispy Gamer is considered a situational source based on the author, and in my investigation, John Teti is considered reliable. As for BitMob, it is considered a reliable source for articles written by staff members according to
WP:VG/RS, as it features known journalists in the industry such as Dan Hsu and, of course, Brian Shirk. I may just remove Crispy Gamer in fear that it will hurt its FA chances in the end, but it's an interesting critique that no one else has made. -
The New Age Retro Hippieused Ruler!Now, he can figure out the length of things easily.18:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry for being so critical. While the referencing and research on this article are very good, the writing and formatting are not really up to scratch. I appreciate that this is the case, but it reads very much like it has been put together from passing references here and there, and that does not make a good read. I hope you're able to work on my suggestions and reorder the article/smooth out the prose, because this article does have potential. Everything you need for GA status is there, it just needs some moulding.
J Milburn (
talk)
10:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I was thinking that this had FAC potential. Ping me on my talk page when you're ready for me to take another read through.
J Milburn (
talk)
11:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I've requested that the lead image is cleaned up
here. If you're able to do that stuff, then go ahead- if not, I've found the Graphic Lab to be very useful in the past.
J Milburn (
talk)
16:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Second read through
Ok, it's starting to look more ordered. I'm copyediting as I'm going.
There's more to be said in "Concept and creation". Who designed the original character for the arcade game? More should be said about his weakness, and his role as the intro to the game, and more should be said about the other French stereotypes- expressos, baguettes, croissants, etc.
I'll make the weaknesses and stereotypes stronger elements of the creation section. As for the arcade version, I initially was unable to find a proper reference, but I realized that there was a reference that did not mention Glass Joe, but said that Miyamoto made the designs for the arcade games. -
New Age Retro Hippie(talk)(contributions)22:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see now that you've included some of that information in the next section. Perhaps mention there about how he's very weak, acts as an intro to the game, etc. I just feel his role in the game and the concept should be fully explained before we get onto his impact.
"Harris discussed him again in another article and wrote that he "crumples to the floor if a housefly lands on his chin".[22]" This sentence feels a little out of place.
"Glass Joe has received criticism for his weakness." I don't really see how you're categorising many of these as criticism. "Game Informer's James Cowan called the fight against Glass Joe a "total joke".[39]" is clearly being critical of the game, and so that is definitely worth mentioning, while the others just seem to be joining in the "hahah, look how rubbish this guy is" thing, which is what he's meant for.
The section on the cultural impact is good, and, yes, that's the important bit, but I think we still need a bit more concerning the in-game stuff and his design. This is getting there, no doubt about that, but if you're interested in taking this to FAC, I'm happy to stick around and keep poking.
J Milburn (
talk)
11:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Definitely interested in FAC; I want to get the Four Award. However, as much as I would like to, I really cannot add much to his in-game stuff without venturing into guide content. In his games, outside of the cutscenes and a few things about his weakness, Glass Joe is just a boxer - there isn't much to be said about him. Basically, Glass Joe is almost an icon more than he is a character. He has no side-game or side-projects (aside from a couple very brief unsourceable appearances in a comic and cartoon). -
New Age Retro Hippie(talk)(contributions)20:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Ok, I'm happy to promote now. I do feel that the article has greatly improved during the GAC. I think the writing is probably still a little choppy in places for FAC; I'd strongly reccomend finding a copyeditor to look at the article with fresh eyes before sending it to FAC.
PresN (
talk·contribs) may be a good person to ask- he's experienced at FAC, and video games are his area. Feel free to drop me a line if/when this is sent to FAC, and I'll give it another look. Thanks, and good luck!
J Milburn (
talk)
16:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I think it's worth noting that I have not played these games, so I am very much coming to this with fresh eyes.
"While he is still weak in the Wii version a more difficult incarnation exists in that game which caused multiple critics to take notice." This is a rather unweildy sentence, I am not sure I know what it means. There are two versions of the character on the game, one of which isn't as weak as usual?
"He was originally designed by Shigeru Miyamoto in the arcade game, by Makoto Wada in the NES game, and by Eddie Viser in the Wii game." He can't really be "originally" designed by all three.
"Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser" I don't think this is the best way of saying this- "redesigned", maybe, but note the game for which he was redesigned.
The history section comes across as a little choppy- you're also throwing a lot of stuff together. Design, development, role in the games... "Glass Joe is a French boxer, hailing from Paris, France. He was designed by Makoto Wada in the NES version. Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser. He is portrayed by Christian Bernard in the Wii Punch-Out!!." Four short sentences, all saying very different things.
"G4TV's "jmanalang" referenced knocking out Glass Joe as an important aspect of his status as a hardcore gamer.[9]" Seems a little silly as the first thing to mention. Presumably, this is a joke?
"Wired's Chris Kohler used the croissants as an example of how the game enhanced the ethnic stereotypes found in previous games." What croissants? What game?
"Glass Joe is from France, so of course he sips espressos before his fights, and when he gets knocked out, baguettes literally fly out of his head" Why's this satire? If what he's writing actually happens in the game... Or is he trying to make a comment on the fact the game uses the most obvious French stereotypes?
"Giant Bomb's Ryan Davis felt that someone would have to have a sour disposition to take offense to seeing croissants coming from Glass Joe.[21] GameDaily's Chris Buffa mentioned him while discussing Punch-Out!!'s entry in the list of culturally insensitive video games as an example of how its stereotypes can be viewed as either "funny or insulting".[22]" If you merge these two sentences (preferably switching them around) you can more effectively use them to contrast each other.
"the fight with Mike Tyson" Same game? The link is to the article on the actual boxer. I assumed from the fact that Glass Joe was made up, they all would be?
Again, the flow in the section on his weakness is somewhat lacking. It comes across as a little choppy- just fact. fact. fact. with little linking them together. Just as a for instance, you could contrast those who praise the fact he's a good opener, giving people a sense of achievement, with those who say he gives a "false sense of familiarity", rather than just listing them both as unrelated facts at different ends of the section.
I'm not sure we need every example of how the name has been used in reviews and such. Just state that it has been, then give maybe one or two examples?
"Analysis" isn't the right name for that section... It's essentially about the name, and there's some stuff on the name earlier, so perhaps it could be renamed to reflect that? And perhaps placed as a subsection of cultural impact? I don't know, I'm thinking aloud, but it doesn't quite work as it is.
I think I agree with the need for two non-free images.
File:Glass Joe 1.jpg has a rather weak (but passable) rationale, but it certainly needs to be downsized considerably.
Same for Crispy Gamer (Teti, John (2009-07-06). "One and Done: Nine Videogame Characters Who Were Never Heard From Again". Crispy Gamer. Retrieved 2010-08-25.)
Crispy Gamer is considered a situational source based on the author, and in my investigation, John Teti is considered reliable. As for BitMob, it is considered a reliable source for articles written by staff members according to
WP:VG/RS, as it features known journalists in the industry such as Dan Hsu and, of course, Brian Shirk. I may just remove Crispy Gamer in fear that it will hurt its FA chances in the end, but it's an interesting critique that no one else has made. -
The New Age Retro Hippieused Ruler!Now, he can figure out the length of things easily.18:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry for being so critical. While the referencing and research on this article are very good, the writing and formatting are not really up to scratch. I appreciate that this is the case, but it reads very much like it has been put together from passing references here and there, and that does not make a good read. I hope you're able to work on my suggestions and reorder the article/smooth out the prose, because this article does have potential. Everything you need for GA status is there, it just needs some moulding.
J Milburn (
talk)
10:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I was thinking that this had FAC potential. Ping me on my talk page when you're ready for me to take another read through.
J Milburn (
talk)
11:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I've requested that the lead image is cleaned up
here. If you're able to do that stuff, then go ahead- if not, I've found the Graphic Lab to be very useful in the past.
J Milburn (
talk)
16:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Second read through
Ok, it's starting to look more ordered. I'm copyediting as I'm going.
There's more to be said in "Concept and creation". Who designed the original character for the arcade game? More should be said about his weakness, and his role as the intro to the game, and more should be said about the other French stereotypes- expressos, baguettes, croissants, etc.
I'll make the weaknesses and stereotypes stronger elements of the creation section. As for the arcade version, I initially was unable to find a proper reference, but I realized that there was a reference that did not mention Glass Joe, but said that Miyamoto made the designs for the arcade games. -
New Age Retro Hippie(talk)(contributions)22:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see now that you've included some of that information in the next section. Perhaps mention there about how he's very weak, acts as an intro to the game, etc. I just feel his role in the game and the concept should be fully explained before we get onto his impact.
"Harris discussed him again in another article and wrote that he "crumples to the floor if a housefly lands on his chin".[22]" This sentence feels a little out of place.
"Glass Joe has received criticism for his weakness." I don't really see how you're categorising many of these as criticism. "Game Informer's James Cowan called the fight against Glass Joe a "total joke".[39]" is clearly being critical of the game, and so that is definitely worth mentioning, while the others just seem to be joining in the "hahah, look how rubbish this guy is" thing, which is what he's meant for.
The section on the cultural impact is good, and, yes, that's the important bit, but I think we still need a bit more concerning the in-game stuff and his design. This is getting there, no doubt about that, but if you're interested in taking this to FAC, I'm happy to stick around and keep poking.
J Milburn (
talk)
11:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Definitely interested in FAC; I want to get the Four Award. However, as much as I would like to, I really cannot add much to his in-game stuff without venturing into guide content. In his games, outside of the cutscenes and a few things about his weakness, Glass Joe is just a boxer - there isn't much to be said about him. Basically, Glass Joe is almost an icon more than he is a character. He has no side-game or side-projects (aside from a couple very brief unsourceable appearances in a comic and cartoon). -
New Age Retro Hippie(talk)(contributions)20:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Ok, I'm happy to promote now. I do feel that the article has greatly improved during the GAC. I think the writing is probably still a little choppy in places for FAC; I'd strongly reccomend finding a copyeditor to look at the article with fresh eyes before sending it to FAC.
PresN (
talk·contribs) may be a good person to ask- he's experienced at FAC, and video games are his area. Feel free to drop me a line if/when this is sent to FAC, and I'll give it another look. Thanks, and good luck!
J Milburn (
talk)
16:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)reply