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Archive 1 |
In fact GH never named the people of Glad. Anonymus only said that his army was supported by Cumans, Bulgars and Vlachs.
"dux illius patrie cum magno exercitiu equitum et peditum, adiutorio cumanorum et bulgarorum atque blacorum."
And a gesta is not a chronicle. A gesta is a peace of literature, a medieval historical novel. 81.183.151.131 12:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The map added to the article under the title "Migration routes of Hungarians, Bulgarians, Pechenegians, Cumanians and the great Tartar invasion on Romania's territory" is totally misleading, because:
1. The map’s title refers to “Romania’s territory”, but the Tisa never was a border river of Romania, and the territory between the Prut and the Dniester rivers is now an independent republic.
2. The map describes a situation which never existed at the same time: e.g., between c. 610 and c. 1002, and after 1187 the Danube was the northern frontier of the Bulgarian Empire and not the Byzantine Empire, while the supposed "voivodates" (if ever) existed in the 9th century or in the 13th century.
See, for example, John V. A. Fine, Jr.: The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelth Century ( ISBN 978-0-472-08149-3) pp. 33-37., 187-188., 197-199.
3. The “Voivodeship of Gelou” and the “Voivodeship of Menumorut” (if ever existed) had been occupied by the Hungarians by 910s even according to the only source which refers to their existence (Gesta Ungarorum); therefore, the reference in the map to the 9th-11th centuries is misleading.
4. Although in the 13th century the Gesta Ungarorum refers to the three voivodates of Gelou, Menumorut and Glad (and only the Gesta Ungarorum refers to them), earlier sources refer to other polities in the territory, for example:
See, for example, Kristó Gyula: Kristó: Early Transylvania, 895-1324 ( ISBN 963-9465-12-7) pp. 63-65.
5. The Bolohoveni never lived in the territory where the map locates them.
See, for example, Victor Spinei: The Romanians and the Turkic Nomads North of the Danube Delta from the Tenth to the Mid-Thirteenth Century ( ISBN 978-90-04-17536-5) pp. 93-97., 161-162.
6. The “Principality of Transylvania” was formed around 1570 as a consequence of the Peace of Speyer.
Consequently, I think that the map should be radically changed or deleted. Borsoka ( talk) 10:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The map under the title "Voivodship (Duchy) of Glad" is dubious because it does not represent the situation the author of the Gesta Hungarorum presents in his work. Glad, Gelou, Salan and Menumorut are exclusivelly mentioned in the Gesta Hungarorum, other primary sources make no mention of them, and in the Gesta Hungarorum Salan's country occupies the whole territory between the Danube and the Tisza rivers. Therefore the map should be properly modified or some explanation should be provided in order to explain its peculiarity. Borsoka ( talk) 14:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I used these two sources for my map: [1] [2] - same map of Duchy of Salan is also published in few history books that I have, but these two are only sources that are defining borders of these duchies. I am aware that this source, for example, show that Salan ruled much larger area, but that source does not provide exact borders of his duchy, so I cannot base my map on that. This map that show borders of the Duchy of Salan and Great Moravia is also published in the book "Vojvodina - petnaest milenijuma kulturne istorije" written by professor-doctor Radmilo Petrović and that is an reliable source for usage in Wikipedia. PANONIAN 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Who exactly translated name "Vrscia" from the text of Gesta as "Orşova"? Name is more similar to Vršac, so it would be more likely that this city is mentioned here. PANONIAN 15:40, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
I have no idea why you reverted my edit. Google translate say that description from the source (glad bolgar foldje) means "Glad Bulgarian soil" in English: [3] I have also few published sources that stating that Glad was Bulgarian and I will quote them when I come home. Do you have any source that claim that Glad was something else instead Bulgarian? PANONIAN 14:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Fakirbakir, we would need exact quotation from your sources (original quotation in Hungarian if possible + English translation), i.e. clarification is needed about the question whether mentioned sources are using term "fictional" or some other term. PANONIAN 12:18, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
In fact GH never named the people of Glad. Anonymus only said that his army was supported by Cumans, Bulgars and Vlachs.
"dux illius patrie cum magno exercitiu equitum et peditum, adiutorio cumanorum et bulgarorum atque blacorum."
And a gesta is not a chronicle. A gesta is a peace of literature, a medieval historical novel. 81.183.151.131 12:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The map added to the article under the title "Migration routes of Hungarians, Bulgarians, Pechenegians, Cumanians and the great Tartar invasion on Romania's territory" is totally misleading, because:
1. The map’s title refers to “Romania’s territory”, but the Tisa never was a border river of Romania, and the territory between the Prut and the Dniester rivers is now an independent republic.
2. The map describes a situation which never existed at the same time: e.g., between c. 610 and c. 1002, and after 1187 the Danube was the northern frontier of the Bulgarian Empire and not the Byzantine Empire, while the supposed "voivodates" (if ever) existed in the 9th century or in the 13th century.
See, for example, John V. A. Fine, Jr.: The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelth Century ( ISBN 978-0-472-08149-3) pp. 33-37., 187-188., 197-199.
3. The “Voivodeship of Gelou” and the “Voivodeship of Menumorut” (if ever existed) had been occupied by the Hungarians by 910s even according to the only source which refers to their existence (Gesta Ungarorum); therefore, the reference in the map to the 9th-11th centuries is misleading.
4. Although in the 13th century the Gesta Ungarorum refers to the three voivodates of Gelou, Menumorut and Glad (and only the Gesta Ungarorum refers to them), earlier sources refer to other polities in the territory, for example:
See, for example, Kristó Gyula: Kristó: Early Transylvania, 895-1324 ( ISBN 963-9465-12-7) pp. 63-65.
5. The Bolohoveni never lived in the territory where the map locates them.
See, for example, Victor Spinei: The Romanians and the Turkic Nomads North of the Danube Delta from the Tenth to the Mid-Thirteenth Century ( ISBN 978-90-04-17536-5) pp. 93-97., 161-162.
6. The “Principality of Transylvania” was formed around 1570 as a consequence of the Peace of Speyer.
Consequently, I think that the map should be radically changed or deleted. Borsoka ( talk) 10:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The map under the title "Voivodship (Duchy) of Glad" is dubious because it does not represent the situation the author of the Gesta Hungarorum presents in his work. Glad, Gelou, Salan and Menumorut are exclusivelly mentioned in the Gesta Hungarorum, other primary sources make no mention of them, and in the Gesta Hungarorum Salan's country occupies the whole territory between the Danube and the Tisza rivers. Therefore the map should be properly modified or some explanation should be provided in order to explain its peculiarity. Borsoka ( talk) 14:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I used these two sources for my map: [1] [2] - same map of Duchy of Salan is also published in few history books that I have, but these two are only sources that are defining borders of these duchies. I am aware that this source, for example, show that Salan ruled much larger area, but that source does not provide exact borders of his duchy, so I cannot base my map on that. This map that show borders of the Duchy of Salan and Great Moravia is also published in the book "Vojvodina - petnaest milenijuma kulturne istorije" written by professor-doctor Radmilo Petrović and that is an reliable source for usage in Wikipedia. PANONIAN 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Who exactly translated name "Vrscia" from the text of Gesta as "Orşova"? Name is more similar to Vršac, so it would be more likely that this city is mentioned here. PANONIAN 15:40, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
I have no idea why you reverted my edit. Google translate say that description from the source (glad bolgar foldje) means "Glad Bulgarian soil" in English: [3] I have also few published sources that stating that Glad was Bulgarian and I will quote them when I come home. Do you have any source that claim that Glad was something else instead Bulgarian? PANONIAN 14:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Fakirbakir, we would need exact quotation from your sources (original quotation in Hungarian if possible + English translation), i.e. clarification is needed about the question whether mentioned sources are using term "fictional" or some other term. PANONIAN 12:18, 28 March 2012 (UTC)