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I'm not going to personally remove the image or anything, but I don't think it's a good idea to use fair use images here. Can somebody maybe go to the museum and take a picture of it? -- Visviva 04:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The number of Japanese National treasures is not important, it is just a code.-- Mochi 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Mirokubosatsu is one of the top ranked statues, that why it is a national treasure statue. But there are no ranks in the National treasure statues.
国宝又は重要文化財指定書規則 [1] or "The rule of the form for designation of National Treasures and Important cultural assets" is the rule what to write on the National Treasure and Important cultural assets designation form.
On the form, these should be registered:
The number of designation form of Mirokubosatsu is NO1 for statues. This is just the number of the form.
You can see national treasures owned by the Japanese Government at here(Mirokubosatsu is not included), but you can not find the Numbers of the treasures, because the numbers are not important.
In Korea, the number of the National Treasures may be important, but not in Japan. Thanks.-- Mochi 07:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
in both korea and japan, the numbers are not rankings by importance but used for identification. certainly useful info, commonly used. Appleby 08:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
First, I can not find information at the google book link.
I'm afraid Korean people believe the number is a kind of ranking. Because the Board of Audit of Korea said "Namdaemun is not worth being designated as National Treasure No. 1" [3], although "it was a misunderstanding to assume the designation implied a kind of grade." [4] The number may be misleading information, as the Board of Audit did.-- Mochi 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
If the numbers are useful, other national treasures should also be called with numbers, but they aren't (See National treasures of Japan). Calling treasures with numbers are Korean custom. I'm afraid somebody think such custom are common also in Japan, so I delete.-- Mochi 08:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that the numbers are useful information. If it is useful and commonly used, all other national treasures are being refered with numbers, but they aren't. Futhermore, I cannot find the full list of designation numbers on the Internet.
Some people in Japan misunderstand that "Miroku-bosatsu is National Treasure NO 1, so it is the most important one." Of cource, it is the first designated, but some other treasures are also designated at the same time. It is one of the most important, but not the only one. Koryuji itself advertises "National Treasure NO 1", but that is nonsence. The author of your reference may have been affected by such.
You added the number is just a classification, so that OK. Thanks. But I wonder why you would like to write the number. -- Mochi 01:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, There are no numbers:-) The number of ”国宝又は重要文化財指定書規則” is the numbers of DOCUMENTS not tresures itself. 220.211.227.126
I changed my opinion back. I think the number is not necessary, because the number is of the designation documents, not the number of national treasure itself. The number is something like ID number for people and have no meaning. What we should mention is that two statues looks similar, that's all.-- Mochi 15:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Plus, there are several National Treasure #1 in Japan for several categories. So This edit by Appleby is inaccurate. -- Mochi 15:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I uploaded the National Treasure designation document of Kenpon-chakushoku-Fugenbosatsu-zou. Kenpon-chakushoku-Fugenbosatsu-zou [5] is the National Treasure #1 in painting. This shows "絵 第一号", this means there are several National Treasure #1s.
I request you provide any documents that explain the numbers have signigicant meanings. I can not get useful information from the number.-- Mochi 08:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN477002018X&id=D7_MSioiABQC&pg=PA521&lpg=PA521&dq=miroku+%22national+treasure%22&sig=fN9xJ5IWjEWrrSGNQC1xW7Q62Us], [7]. Thanks. Tortfeasor 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English says;
This is the copy of designation document, so I'm sure it is most reliable source in the world. In this document, most important words are following;
Do you understand?
Plus your citation links do not work on my computer. I can only read the synopses of those books.-- Mochi 12:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm in Japan, so Japanese books are far more accessible than English books, that's why I cite Japanese documents. I have a Google account, however the links do not work. Google may not accept deep links.
Two of your citations "New Japan solo" and "Gateway to Japan" are travelars guidebooks. Koryuji-temple advertizes Mirokubosatsu as the National Treasure #1, so it is natural the writers of the books write so.
You said "I always put the number down because that is how the artwork, etc. has been classified and thus makes it easier to keep track of." The books you cited probably mention about other National Treasures. Can you find numbers of those National Treasures? If the numbers are useful and helpful, there should be the numbers of them.-- Mochi 17:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
You said the number is for accuracy at first, however, you changed your opinion and says "The number doesn't have to be useful per se so much as it is interesting information that is relevant and in that sense is useful to the reader to know." We should remember that this article is not about Miroku, but Bangasayusang. Are there any relations between the designation number of Miroku and Bangasayusang? Of course not. We should not write unrelated information just because it is interesting. If you would like to write the designation number of Miroku, you should do in the article of Miroku, not here.-- Mochi 11:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your point exactly. Please tell me simply. At this time, I have no idea about another suggestion. Unrelated information should not be on the article.-- Mochi 06:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
What is your compromise?-- Mochi 08:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
If you would like to add the number of Mirokubosatsu, you should add the number of all other Japanese National Treasures and footnote to maintain consistency on Wikipedia. No.1 is not a special number and if all the number is provided, this may help somebody as you said before. Consistency is very important.-- Mochi 16:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As I said, No.1 is not a special number. When Miroku is designated on June 9th 1951, some other treasures are designated. We should mind that Miroku is not the only first designated National Treasure. I don't mind if some guide book mention "Miroku is the first National Treasure" as a trivia and I don't mind if somebody write so on the article of Miroku with footnote. But this is the article of Bangasayusang. That's why you are insisting to write unrelated information violating neutral point of view. How many books you cite, I don't agree to write the designaiton number., because this is the article of Bangasayusang. Only a compromise is to write the National Treasure designation number all the time as you do to Korean National Treasures. However, you are not willing to accept this idea, we should delete the number from this article.
Plus, you may ask me what the other first designated National Treasures are. Some examples I found are in Yakushi-ji. According to National Treasures list in Yakushiji Official Website, five sculptures in Yakushiji are National Treasures designated on June 9th 1951. June 9th 1951((昭和26年 Showa in Japanese) is the day when present National Treasure system started.-- Mochi 11:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Tortfeasor, do not revert without reason. You have not shown any relation between the designation number of Miroku and Bangasayusang. This is not the article of Miroku but Bangasayusang, so it is natural to delete unrelated infomation about Bangasayusang.-- Mochi 08:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The document I uploaded is not an original research. It is scanned from a widely published book by a major publisher, Shinchosha. If you do not like my translation , you should find some other ways to understand the document by yourself.
You do not admit there are several categories in Japanese National Treasure system, ignoring the official document. You seem not to know/admit there are several National Treasures designated at the same time with Miroku-bosatsu. If you are not familiar to Japanese National Treasure sytem and Japanese language, I propose you not to be involved in unfamiliar things. You are not persuasive about this topic because you are not familiar to Japanese National Treasure sytem. "I think the number is relevan" is just your opinion.-- Mochi 13:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
So you do not admit my source because I haven't provided any English sources. That sounds strange and you are still ignoring Wikipedia:Reliable sources. You should keep in mind that not all information have been translated into English. No source mentions the relation between the designation number of Miroku-bosatsu and Bangasayusang and you have already said there are no relations.
You think I suggest that the statue is "Japanese", however as I said I wonder where the Miroku was made. I 've read several Japanese books and find both stories are mentioned. I'm still unsure about the place of birth about Miroku-bosatsu, so I have not edited about this topic. I'm neutral. -- Mochi 10:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I found New Japan Solo at a library. It says "Miroku bosatsu is the first national treasure", not "national treasure No. 1". As I said there are several first national treasures. Plus Tortfeasor added "Both South Korean and Japanese National Treasures are numbered by order of official designation, not by order of importance.", however I can not find Japanese national treasure numbering policy. If you would like to write so, please cite a source of "Japanese National Treasures are numbered by order of official designation".-- Mochi 13:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I think its well established that the Japanese miroku and the Korean mireuk are related. The miroku is made of red pine, which until relatively recent times was unknown to grow in Japan. -- Kjoon lee 18:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't have exact English references now. But I introduce a Japanese source;
So I wonder where the Miroku was made. Some historians think it was made in Korea and others think in Japan.-- Mochi 17:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says “Bangasayusang, or Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasayusang” – so the Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasayusang is no. 83, and the Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasang (NB, no sayu here) is no. 78? Perhaps we should have some DAB template in those articles… Wikipeditor 00:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Pensive Bodhisattva 02.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 6, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-12-06. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich ( talk) 03:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I'm not going to personally remove the image or anything, but I don't think it's a good idea to use fair use images here. Can somebody maybe go to the museum and take a picture of it? -- Visviva 04:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The number of Japanese National treasures is not important, it is just a code.-- Mochi 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Mirokubosatsu is one of the top ranked statues, that why it is a national treasure statue. But there are no ranks in the National treasure statues.
国宝又は重要文化財指定書規則 [1] or "The rule of the form for designation of National Treasures and Important cultural assets" is the rule what to write on the National Treasure and Important cultural assets designation form.
On the form, these should be registered:
The number of designation form of Mirokubosatsu is NO1 for statues. This is just the number of the form.
You can see national treasures owned by the Japanese Government at here(Mirokubosatsu is not included), but you can not find the Numbers of the treasures, because the numbers are not important.
In Korea, the number of the National Treasures may be important, but not in Japan. Thanks.-- Mochi 07:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
in both korea and japan, the numbers are not rankings by importance but used for identification. certainly useful info, commonly used. Appleby 08:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
First, I can not find information at the google book link.
I'm afraid Korean people believe the number is a kind of ranking. Because the Board of Audit of Korea said "Namdaemun is not worth being designated as National Treasure No. 1" [3], although "it was a misunderstanding to assume the designation implied a kind of grade." [4] The number may be misleading information, as the Board of Audit did.-- Mochi 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
If the numbers are useful, other national treasures should also be called with numbers, but they aren't (See National treasures of Japan). Calling treasures with numbers are Korean custom. I'm afraid somebody think such custom are common also in Japan, so I delete.-- Mochi 08:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that the numbers are useful information. If it is useful and commonly used, all other national treasures are being refered with numbers, but they aren't. Futhermore, I cannot find the full list of designation numbers on the Internet.
Some people in Japan misunderstand that "Miroku-bosatsu is National Treasure NO 1, so it is the most important one." Of cource, it is the first designated, but some other treasures are also designated at the same time. It is one of the most important, but not the only one. Koryuji itself advertises "National Treasure NO 1", but that is nonsence. The author of your reference may have been affected by such.
You added the number is just a classification, so that OK. Thanks. But I wonder why you would like to write the number. -- Mochi 01:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, There are no numbers:-) The number of ”国宝又は重要文化財指定書規則” is the numbers of DOCUMENTS not tresures itself. 220.211.227.126
I changed my opinion back. I think the number is not necessary, because the number is of the designation documents, not the number of national treasure itself. The number is something like ID number for people and have no meaning. What we should mention is that two statues looks similar, that's all.-- Mochi 15:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Plus, there are several National Treasure #1 in Japan for several categories. So This edit by Appleby is inaccurate. -- Mochi 15:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I uploaded the National Treasure designation document of Kenpon-chakushoku-Fugenbosatsu-zou. Kenpon-chakushoku-Fugenbosatsu-zou [5] is the National Treasure #1 in painting. This shows "絵 第一号", this means there are several National Treasure #1s.
I request you provide any documents that explain the numbers have signigicant meanings. I can not get useful information from the number.-- Mochi 08:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN477002018X&id=D7_MSioiABQC&pg=PA521&lpg=PA521&dq=miroku+%22national+treasure%22&sig=fN9xJ5IWjEWrrSGNQC1xW7Q62Us], [7]. Thanks. Tortfeasor 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English says;
This is the copy of designation document, so I'm sure it is most reliable source in the world. In this document, most important words are following;
Do you understand?
Plus your citation links do not work on my computer. I can only read the synopses of those books.-- Mochi 12:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm in Japan, so Japanese books are far more accessible than English books, that's why I cite Japanese documents. I have a Google account, however the links do not work. Google may not accept deep links.
Two of your citations "New Japan solo" and "Gateway to Japan" are travelars guidebooks. Koryuji-temple advertizes Mirokubosatsu as the National Treasure #1, so it is natural the writers of the books write so.
You said "I always put the number down because that is how the artwork, etc. has been classified and thus makes it easier to keep track of." The books you cited probably mention about other National Treasures. Can you find numbers of those National Treasures? If the numbers are useful and helpful, there should be the numbers of them.-- Mochi 17:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
You said the number is for accuracy at first, however, you changed your opinion and says "The number doesn't have to be useful per se so much as it is interesting information that is relevant and in that sense is useful to the reader to know." We should remember that this article is not about Miroku, but Bangasayusang. Are there any relations between the designation number of Miroku and Bangasayusang? Of course not. We should not write unrelated information just because it is interesting. If you would like to write the designation number of Miroku, you should do in the article of Miroku, not here.-- Mochi 11:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your point exactly. Please tell me simply. At this time, I have no idea about another suggestion. Unrelated information should not be on the article.-- Mochi 06:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
What is your compromise?-- Mochi 08:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
If you would like to add the number of Mirokubosatsu, you should add the number of all other Japanese National Treasures and footnote to maintain consistency on Wikipedia. No.1 is not a special number and if all the number is provided, this may help somebody as you said before. Consistency is very important.-- Mochi 16:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As I said, No.1 is not a special number. When Miroku is designated on June 9th 1951, some other treasures are designated. We should mind that Miroku is not the only first designated National Treasure. I don't mind if some guide book mention "Miroku is the first National Treasure" as a trivia and I don't mind if somebody write so on the article of Miroku with footnote. But this is the article of Bangasayusang. That's why you are insisting to write unrelated information violating neutral point of view. How many books you cite, I don't agree to write the designaiton number., because this is the article of Bangasayusang. Only a compromise is to write the National Treasure designation number all the time as you do to Korean National Treasures. However, you are not willing to accept this idea, we should delete the number from this article.
Plus, you may ask me what the other first designated National Treasures are. Some examples I found are in Yakushi-ji. According to National Treasures list in Yakushiji Official Website, five sculptures in Yakushiji are National Treasures designated on June 9th 1951. June 9th 1951((昭和26年 Showa in Japanese) is the day when present National Treasure system started.-- Mochi 11:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Tortfeasor, do not revert without reason. You have not shown any relation between the designation number of Miroku and Bangasayusang. This is not the article of Miroku but Bangasayusang, so it is natural to delete unrelated infomation about Bangasayusang.-- Mochi 08:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The document I uploaded is not an original research. It is scanned from a widely published book by a major publisher, Shinchosha. If you do not like my translation , you should find some other ways to understand the document by yourself.
You do not admit there are several categories in Japanese National Treasure system, ignoring the official document. You seem not to know/admit there are several National Treasures designated at the same time with Miroku-bosatsu. If you are not familiar to Japanese National Treasure sytem and Japanese language, I propose you not to be involved in unfamiliar things. You are not persuasive about this topic because you are not familiar to Japanese National Treasure sytem. "I think the number is relevan" is just your opinion.-- Mochi 13:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
So you do not admit my source because I haven't provided any English sources. That sounds strange and you are still ignoring Wikipedia:Reliable sources. You should keep in mind that not all information have been translated into English. No source mentions the relation between the designation number of Miroku-bosatsu and Bangasayusang and you have already said there are no relations.
You think I suggest that the statue is "Japanese", however as I said I wonder where the Miroku was made. I 've read several Japanese books and find both stories are mentioned. I'm still unsure about the place of birth about Miroku-bosatsu, so I have not edited about this topic. I'm neutral. -- Mochi 10:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I found New Japan Solo at a library. It says "Miroku bosatsu is the first national treasure", not "national treasure No. 1". As I said there are several first national treasures. Plus Tortfeasor added "Both South Korean and Japanese National Treasures are numbered by order of official designation, not by order of importance.", however I can not find Japanese national treasure numbering policy. If you would like to write so, please cite a source of "Japanese National Treasures are numbered by order of official designation".-- Mochi 13:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I think its well established that the Japanese miroku and the Korean mireuk are related. The miroku is made of red pine, which until relatively recent times was unknown to grow in Japan. -- Kjoon lee 18:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't have exact English references now. But I introduce a Japanese source;
So I wonder where the Miroku was made. Some historians think it was made in Korea and others think in Japan.-- Mochi 17:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says “Bangasayusang, or Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasayusang” – so the Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasayusang is no. 83, and the Geumdong Mireuk Bosal Bangasang (NB, no sayu here) is no. 78? Perhaps we should have some DAB template in those articles… Wikipeditor 00:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Pensive Bodhisattva 02.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 6, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-12-06. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich ( talk) 03:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)