"Adrienne then organized the family's finances"
I would like to see a sentence or two about Adrienne's regaining the family castles, property (some of them, Chauvinnac?) after release from prison, Lafayette was debilitated from prison, and she held it together Pohick2 ( talk) 02:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
ok, i bit the bullet, and put some things in an article about her. she's notable given the Maurois biography. i will start to mine the letters, which have some gems. put family info there, one descendant is queen of Belgium. wish we had more french nobility; title links (like the english) that would make the genealogy easier. pohick ( talk) 14:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
btw here's an external link, might have some stuff of interest http://www.friendsoflafayette.org/data/genlaff.html
i'm surprised the the de la fayette peerage is not there unlike Duke of Noailles, but i suppose it's work for another day Pohick2 ( talk) 16:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Lafayette and his wife were impeached or arrested by Jacobins in August-September 1792? Really now? The dethroning of Louis XVI was a Girondin project; the Jacobins did not take power until the end of 1792 at the earliest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Any reason people accepted these anonymous edits over the last month or so? Their consequences are in the article as it stands. [4] (uncited); [5] (unexplained removal), [6] (unexplained removal); [7] (uncited). - Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I copied the failed /FAC nom here; so that it may be edited without disturbing the original document. Lazulilasher ( talk) 00:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Among the major errors and dishonesties of the present text, which reads like the product of an illiterate and bigoted royalist:
This new ministry will be purged (at any rate) of some of its members, but one great doubt exists whether it will not be driven off by the Jacobin faction. It is in contemplation to make a serious effort against that faction in favor of the Constitution, and M. de Lafayette will begin the attack. [8]p.545
I look forward to seeing what Lazulilasher does with this after he does some research; it is hopeless without. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is whether, in an article on an American citizen, it would be appropriate to restore the date format July 4, 1776, instead of 4 July 1776. The former was used until quite recently; it was changed at the impulse of one editor, who thinks there is only one right way to do dates.
Is there objection to switching back? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
This article contains none of the three or four names of Lafayette's mistresses; since the first has a whole book written about her effect on Lafayette's carrer (Lady-in-waiting, by Gottschalk), this seems a failure in completeness. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Her disappearance caused only a minor ripple of interest.
The gossips, putting two and two together, said that Lafa- yette had deserted her. His heart could not have been broken because he was often seen in the more sedate salons that he now frequented with yet another lady whom he had met even before he went to Spainl She was a sister of one of his Franco-American officers. She was even more beautiful than Madame de Hunolstein and, unlike poor Agla, was witty and intelligent. There was a kind of magic about Madame de Simiane; when one met her at a social gathering she was so charming, it was said, so ready to be pleased, that one felt
like giving another party especially in her honor.
It was even said that Aglaé had become thoroughly promiscuous and at night went scouting for lovers in the dark arcades of the Palais Royal
pohick ( talk) 22:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)(1774) at the urging of Noailles and Segur, he found relief in "two romances with celebrated beauties, in which my will played more of a role than my heart." "jealousy smashed the first one before it even started, and in the second, I was less interested in conquering her than triumphing over my rival" -- (1783) by comparison, the Lafayettes were staid: even puritan John Adams commented on their strict repudiation of card playing, gambling, latenight parties, and other fashionable amusements.
Interesting passage:
It is gayer to read of George Lafayette's return from America, and of the unexpected arrival of Lafayette's mysterious admirer, Madame de Simiane, who traveled night and day to see him, and for some time took up her abode with the Lafayettes. The Household of the Lafayettes, Edith Helen Sichel, p. 259
pohick ( talk) 22:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
the letter is in the John Carter Brown Library [10] (not LOC) seems platonic to me, but the rhetoric is flowery, and easy to snip:It is unsigned but in the Lafayette's unmistakable handwriting. (p.100)
as Gottschalk notes, a switch to tutoyer at the end, which he didn't use with Adrienne. (which for me is more shocking than an alleged affair) the letter seems to show the family consternation of gossip without bitching. there seems to be a series of ladies gushing over Lafayette, giving him money etc. it's not clear to me how much was consumated pohick ( talk) 23:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)You have known me; you have loved me in every respect .... All that you are, all that I owe you, justifies my love and nothing, not even you, would keep me from adoring you
Here's Burton's take:
Taking their cue from Lafayette’s letters of bereavement and Anastasie’s biography of her mother: historians have interpreted Adrienne’s death as the culmination of a love story. After all, Adrienne's last words to Lafayette [whose extra-marital affairs in his youth, including the one with Mme de Simiane whom she had forgiven, had been known to her] had been quite touching: “Je suis toute a vous.”
maybe we should write her to ask for the reference- Burton, p.15 pohick ( talk) 20:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Our present treatment is about like telling the Kent State Massacre as an act of self-defense by the Ohio National Guard. In both cases, the view is verifiably one existing view; but we should not endorse it in Wikipedia's voice. Like the Boston Massacre, the civilian population was stoning the troops (and in Paris, there may have been shots as well, although Buckman says there was one gunman, and his gun misfired - I gather citing Lafayette); the troops fired back and killed several people (I believe 20 is a very low estimate). Lafayette and Bailly tried to restrain the troops, not the mob. I have tagged accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"He was educated by his aunt and two priests, Curé de Saint-Roch de Chavaniac. " - makes little sense. What is this supposed to mean? Or what is the name of the second priest? Ohconfucius ( talk) 09:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
"Lafayette found that the Continental Congress did not have the money for his voyage; hence he paid for the ship La Victoire himself" I think it's supposed to mean he paid for the trip, but it reads like he bought the entire craft... Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I can cite 'George Washington's World' by Genevive Foster. Noghiri ( talk) 20:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I was recently reading an article about Washington and Lafeyette in the Smithsonian magazine. They told of a great speech made in retort to Napoleon's brother after the battle of Waterloo. Napoleon's brother was berating the Assembly/Parliament/congress (not my expert subject obviously) for lacking the will to stick with Napoleon after his latest defeat. Lafeyette emerged from the back row, much to the surprise of others, and gave a speech to the effect taht millions of french men had died for Napoleon, don't dare question France's will. It effectively ended the debate. I think it should be added here, if it is in fact true. What do you think, and is it true? Thanks for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.190.142 ( talk) 01:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
James R. Gaines. Adapted from the book For Liberty and Glory: Washington, Lafayette and Their RevolutionsLafayette returned to France in 1799 but stayed out of politics until 1815, when he was elected to the National Assembly in time to put the weight of his revolutionary-era credentials behind the call for Napoleon to abdicate after Waterloo. When the emperor's brother, Lucien Bonaparte, came before the assembly to denounce the attempt as that of a weak-willed nation, Lafayette silenced him. "By what right do you dare accuse the nation of...want of perseverance in the emperor's interest?" he asked. "The nation has followed him on the fields of Italy, across the sands of Egypt and the plains of Germany, across the frozen deserts of Russia.... The nation has followed him in fifty battles, in his defeats and in his victories, and in doing so we have to mourn the blood of three million Frenchmen." [12]
"C'est donc son arrière-grand-père, le comte de La Rivière, ancien lieutenant général des Armées du Roi qui s'occupera de lui. ", whereas the English text says he was raised by his paternal grandmother. Ohconfucius ( talk) 09:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, this is likely way too long of a response, but I believe it clears up the inconsistency. We could likely order our paragraph better; to indicate his mother's actions before she died. Kindly, Lazulilasher ( talk) 17:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Good reply, thanks. Just spotted that his father died on 1 August 1759, but the french version says 9 juillet 1759... Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
If, as is claimed, LF's father was killed at the Battle of Minden during the Seven Years' War, then the date of his death is 1 August 1759. Frania W. ( talk) 18:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
i added the verbiage about the capture based on his notes, however check out the French website with pictures: http://www.eix.be/rochefort/histoire/rumeur/lafayette/lafayette.html ROCHEFORT, Histoire Faits et divers Ragots, rumeurs, cancans et potins, Marie Joseph Gilbert Motier, marquis de la Fayette pohick ( talk) 23:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not entirely convinced that an article, which has evolved in British English, should suddenly be changed to US English. Indeed, Lafayette gained honorary US Citizenship, but in fact remained a French subject and died in France. Having said that, it's no big deal as all instances of non-American spelling appear to have been changed, so I won't revert it. Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I have begun attempting to reconcile the version of events, again between the French and English versions, and have added a small paragraph on his captivity, sourced from the French article. I am slightly stuck for the moment, as it seems that there are some gross inconsistencies, especially in terms of dates (and timelines). On examining the French article, I find it leaves much to be desired. In particular, its citations are not always relevant, and often lacking in references to cited text (which I have tagged accordingly). Nevertheless, the French article asserts that Lafayette was transferred from Wesel to Neisse, where he was held until 1795 and then moved to Olomouc, where he supposedly spent 5 years; his wife was apparently arrested twice - once in 1792 (released soon thereafter) and again in 1794 (to be released January 1795). Adrienne supposedly shared gaol time with her husband until his release (no date here). Ohconfucius ( talk) 05:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
ok went to loc; got sequence of letters by Laf at various prisons:
note the gaps, but I will incorporate in the text. pohick ( talk) 00:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't entirely sure if the mention of Hamilton was relevent in the encyclopedic sense. I know his couragousness wasn't though and it seemed a little clunky and misplaced. If anyone, especially the editors doing the big overhaul, think it fits, please go ahead and add it back in a not so not NOPV way. -- Leodmacleod ( talk) 01:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I discuss my changes to the article on Lafayette's honorary US citizenship over at the Talk page for that article. Summary: Lafayette became a full-fledged citizen of Maryland in 1784 and, thus, the United States in 1789; his is the one case in which "honorary" does not mean "symbolic only." YLee ( talk) 08:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I merged/moved Londonbroil's footnote transcript of the relevant portion of the newspaper article (thanks for that, by the way), along with the detailed discussion of Lafayette's US citizenship, into the article body; such detail does not belong in the summary. I also removed the commentary about the meaning of the phrase "natural born citizen" from Londonbroil's footnote; not only is it WP:OR, it is irrelevant. I discuss this issue in Talk:Honorary citizen of the United States, but I see I need to explain further.
Article Two of the US Constitution prohibits anyone who is not a natural-born citizen of the United States--that is, someone who was not born a US citizen--from becoming President, but it also has a one-time provision that extends the definition of the phrase to everyone who was a US citizen when the Constitution was ratified; otherwise, neither Washington nor anyone else would've been eligible for the office! In other words, Lafayette was not only an American citizen, he was eligible for the Presidency; thus, he was a "natural born citizen" as much as any of the Founding Fathers. (By the way, for some reason many people believe that Alexander Hamilton was ineligible for the Presidency because he was born in Bermuda; some even go further and claim that Article Two was crafted by his political enemies to disqualify him. Hamilton could've been born on Mars; he was an American citizen when the constitution was ratified and thus eligible. Period.) YLee ( talk) 04:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
While reading this entry I noticed a difference concerning the names of the ship that Lafayette sailed on. According to French history he sailed on L'Hermione (not mentioned in the French entry), where as in the English version it states the name of his ship as "La Victoire". Can some one please point out to me a confirmed source in English for verification?
"Many streets around the world are named for Lafayette, such as Lafayette Street in Williston Park, New York and Lafayette Street in Lower Manhattan, New York."
Do we have any examples of streets named after him that are not in the USA or in France? Right now it's saying more or less "Streets have his name in two different parts of the same city" 121.45.206.2 ( talk) 05:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states that there is a Lafayette Avenue in Brooklyn but fails to mention that there is a LaFayette Avenue also in the Bronx's Throggs Neck section. I grew up a half block away from that avenue.
on the bottom of the page of most people with hereditary titles there is a table. why does Lafayette not have one? also, does anyone have his Coat of Arms? 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 19:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
his name is so long, I tried to understand it by reading French name, but that didn't help. I understand part is his title, but could someone explain it? 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 19:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
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The section cited from Tuckerman page 198 previously said roughly, "... was opposed to new taxes and advocated cutting spending". This seemed a bit too close to the political slogans we hear nowadays, and in my curiosity about whether or not someone would actually put words in the marquis's mouth, I checked the source in question.
Here is a link on google books to the actual page: http://books.google.com/books?id=C7kYAAAAYAAJ&vq=198&dq=lafayette%20chief%20of%20staff&pg=PA198#v=onepage&q=tax&f=false
In fact, what the source says is that the marquis was vigorously against raising taxes while the king and his government were wasting it on "useless estates and gifts for courtiers". That is, he was chastising the king for wasting money that had been collected from the hard-working people of france, and that it was immoral or unethical to piss it away on nonsense.
This is, as I expected, quite a bit more subtle than the tiresome slogan of "lower taxes and cut spending" we hear about constantly these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.7.82.22 ( talk) 08:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't see how that differs from contemporary political thought (opposition to high taxes and and government waste). Although I am pretty sure more people today would view the French regime's expenditures with less favorable light, than their own governments. 98.206.155.53 ( talk) 23:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
the blazon is "gules, a bordure vair, a bend or" On the shield a marquis's coronet, below the shield the order of St. Louis. I am not sure where this would go. source: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/famous/misc.htm 98.206.155.53 ( talk) 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the Ancestry section states that "Members of his family were noted for a contempt for danger," and gives an anonymous source. The page cited does not make this fanciful claim, and, since the source is from 1825 - when books were more hagiography than scholarship - the sentence should be expunged, along with the questionable citation. The sentences immediately after this are fine and should remain Asburyparker ( talk) 17:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The article neglects these significant periods in La Fayette's life. Currently it jumps from his birth straight to his American adventures! Where are they? Information on his education and early career is well documented; surprised nobody has bothered to include it in the man's bio!
The result of the proposal was not moved. The arguments opposed to moving are significantly stronger than those who wish to rename. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette → Marquis de Lafayette –, per WP:COMMMONNAME. The proposed form is used by Encyclopedia of World Biography and by The Oxford Companion to American Military History. Hundreds of books use it in their titles. This ngram suggests that "Marquis de Lafayette" is vastly more common than any version of the name that includes "Gilbert du Motier." Contemporaries also used the proposed form, as you can see here.relisted -- Mike Cline ( talk) 14:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC) Kauffner ( talk) 13:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
What is this event? A (bad) joke? (it figured in the list of battles but I had no idea of how to delete it) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.27.100.115 ( talk) 13:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I found four brief mentions of Masonic membership: one when determining to go to America, one when arriving there, one when meeting Washington, and one re the laying monument cornerstones on his 1824 visit. This hardly appears enough to make a separate section. J.J.Nutt's 1891 Newburgh: Her Institution, Industries and Leading Citizens describes Lafayette's visit to that upriver town when on Wednesday September 14, 1824 "a deputation from Hiram Lodge, F.&A.M., invited and accompanied the General, his son and M.Levasseur to the lodge room in the hotel building, where he was received with Masonic honors, and the Rev.Dr. John Brown delivered to him an address, to which Lafayette made an eloquent and appropriate answer. After an introduction to his Masonic brethren , he retired ...." Granted this is not a scholarly tome but an account of an event that people remembered. I expect a similar welcome occurred in other places. Is this in anyway controversial? Mannanan51 ( talk) 04:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Recommend a reference to the Lafayette Escadrille of World War I be included: /info/en/?search=Lafayette_Escadrille — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altemuej ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Done Added to the see also with other stuff named after him.
Richard-of-Earth (
talk)
20:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
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This set of sentences is VERY ambiguous: "Lafayette spent the first part of the winter of 1780–81 in Philadelphia . . ." and then, at the beginning of the next paragraph: "After the Continental victory at the Battle of Cowpens in South Carolina in January 1781, Washington ordered Lafayette to re-form his force and go south to Virginia . . ." This leads the reader to believe that Cowpens is south of Virginia, which is not the case. I would suggest rewording the second sentence/paragraph to suggest Lafayette was coming from Philadelphia. For example: "After the Continental victory at the Battle of Cowpens in South Carolina in January 1781, Washington ordered Lafayette to re-form his force in Philadelphia and go south to Virginia . . ." 2602:306:BC85:1320:85F4:A3EB:1779:CAD ( talk) 23:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
User:Wehwalt: rv. The image does not have proper licensing and would the article would not pass FAC with it there, accordingly I remove it. Please add required information such as the painter to the image page on commons and then re-add it to this article
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nickname- America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman
Kananiali ( talk) 06:36, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
The infobox shows the tricolor flag for the Kingdom of France during the Bourbon restoration, but it did not use that. It brought back the fleur-de-lys. Funnyhat ( talk) 22:29, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
It would be good if the article were to present an explanation of what the name "La Fayette" means, especially with so many things and places named after the Marquis. I have yet to find a source that is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia, but I did find an excellent explanation so I will post it here, and hopefully someone will be able to get this info up to the standard where we can add it to the article:
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Hello, can you add "The Hero of the Two Worlds" under nicknames?
Zotronic ( talk) 18:32, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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Please add "America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman" to his nicknames, because that is what he is called in the modern age. OliviaM81 ( talk) 22:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Do you think these sources would be reliable if I am looking to add a section on Lafayette's opinion on slavery? If you have any other references you think would be useful please let me know. Thank you! http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/marquis-de-lafayettes-plan-for-slavery/ http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/lafayette/exhibition/english/abolitionist/ https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/marquis-de-lafayette "Lafayette and Slavery; From His Letters to Thomas Clarkson and Granville Sharp" by Melvin D. Kennedy https://rare.library.cornell.edu/collections/europe/france/lafayette — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorte106 ( talk • contribs) 03:06, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Someone had added the description "America's Favourite Fighting Frenchman" to the Wikidata entry; it was showing up on mobile. I removed it from there, FYI. Robaato ( talk) 09:20, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
In the "Beliefs" section, there was a non-grammatical phrase, introduced by Jorte106 in edit 2017-03-19T20:00:51:
My guess is that "good" was used instead of "could" because of its phonetic similarity. To fix that problem and two other nearby issues, I replaced that phrase with edit 2017-03-30T14:37:08. I changed it to:
I am not sure that's exactly what the original editor intended, but it seems plausible, and the sentence now makes grammatical sense.
I also note that the whole paragraph has a cite to encyclopedia.com, but that the encyclopedia.com article does not support the paragraph. I believe that the paragraph needs better support, but that's a different discussion.
-- Peter Kaminski ( talk) 21:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
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America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman to Lafayette's description. From musical 'Hamilton' Skyerocket ( talk) 04:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC) Skyerocket ( talk) 04:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Surprised that an addition I made to the "Further reading" section was reverted. What I added was the 201-page catalog for a major exhibition on Lafayette's farewell tour of America that included scholarly essays and was supported by a grant by the National Endowment for the Humanities. The publication included hundreds of illustrations. This was a joint publication by the Queens Museum (New York City) and the University Press of New England, with a print run of five thousand. Fort Greene 2010 ( talk) 16:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Add another nickname to Lafayette, and make one called "America's Favorite FrenchMan." LargeBaguette ( talk) 11:58, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi Wehwalt, what is the problem? I have managed artworks in the Wikipedia before and know a bit on Commons. It meets the full criteria for a free license picture. It is attached to the wall permanently in Pasai Donibane (also called Pasajes), Basque Country, and therefore meets the criteria for exhibition. Is it a FA specific condition? What could ever compromise its showing in this article? Thanks Iñaki LL ( talk) 07:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
In at least two instances, this article does not maintain a neutral point of view. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Instance 1):
"Decline: Flight to Varennes and Champs de Mars massacre
On 20 June 1791, a plot, dubbed the Flight to Varennes, almost allowed the king to escape from France. As leader of the National Guard, Lafayette had been responsible for the royal family's custody. He was thus blamed by extremists like Danton for the near-escape and called a traitor to the people by Robespierre."
"Extremists" is a subjective word. Extreme compared to what or to whom? A person who advocated for the abolition of slavery 200 years ago would have been called an "extremist." Suggest: "leaders," "other leaders," or "radical leaders." Danton was radical in comparison to the milieu at the time, but would have been considered a "moderate" during the period of the Committee of Public Safety under Robespierre (which had Danton and Desmoulins executed).
Instance 2) In the same section:
"Martial law was declared, and the leaders of the mob, such as Danton and Marat, fled or went into hiding . . . "
"of the mob" is again a subjective appellation. Suggest "popular leaders." Note: Danton at the time did not hold official office, but was a popular leader and in the Cordelier's club, one of many such political clubs formed in the immediate aftermath of 1789. Marat was a publisher, and a noted scientific writer prior to the Revolution.
With respect to the use of the term "mob." A mob is a negative and subjective appellation. There is no wikipedia entry for Paris Mob or the Revolutionary Mob. The article indicates Danton and Marat were leaders of something that cannot be defined precisely and has no wikipedia definition. There is a wikipedia entry for "Sans-Cullotes" of which it can be fairly said that Marat was a (not the) leader of the Parisan Sans-Cullottes (among other groups such as readers of his journal). /info/en/?search=Sans-culottes.
This is not a debate about the subject, these are non-neutral appellations which violate the rule. The suggested edits are minor. Please rectify these violations. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.129.178 ( talk) 12:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
"Adrienne then organized the family's finances"
I would like to see a sentence or two about Adrienne's regaining the family castles, property (some of them, Chauvinnac?) after release from prison, Lafayette was debilitated from prison, and she held it together Pohick2 ( talk) 02:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
ok, i bit the bullet, and put some things in an article about her. she's notable given the Maurois biography. i will start to mine the letters, which have some gems. put family info there, one descendant is queen of Belgium. wish we had more french nobility; title links (like the english) that would make the genealogy easier. pohick ( talk) 14:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
btw here's an external link, might have some stuff of interest http://www.friendsoflafayette.org/data/genlaff.html
i'm surprised the the de la fayette peerage is not there unlike Duke of Noailles, but i suppose it's work for another day Pohick2 ( talk) 16:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Lafayette and his wife were impeached or arrested by Jacobins in August-September 1792? Really now? The dethroning of Louis XVI was a Girondin project; the Jacobins did not take power until the end of 1792 at the earliest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Any reason people accepted these anonymous edits over the last month or so? Their consequences are in the article as it stands. [4] (uncited); [5] (unexplained removal), [6] (unexplained removal); [7] (uncited). - Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I copied the failed /FAC nom here; so that it may be edited without disturbing the original document. Lazulilasher ( talk) 00:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Among the major errors and dishonesties of the present text, which reads like the product of an illiterate and bigoted royalist:
This new ministry will be purged (at any rate) of some of its members, but one great doubt exists whether it will not be driven off by the Jacobin faction. It is in contemplation to make a serious effort against that faction in favor of the Constitution, and M. de Lafayette will begin the attack. [8]p.545
I look forward to seeing what Lazulilasher does with this after he does some research; it is hopeless without. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is whether, in an article on an American citizen, it would be appropriate to restore the date format July 4, 1776, instead of 4 July 1776. The former was used until quite recently; it was changed at the impulse of one editor, who thinks there is only one right way to do dates.
Is there objection to switching back? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
This article contains none of the three or four names of Lafayette's mistresses; since the first has a whole book written about her effect on Lafayette's carrer (Lady-in-waiting, by Gottschalk), this seems a failure in completeness. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Her disappearance caused only a minor ripple of interest.
The gossips, putting two and two together, said that Lafa- yette had deserted her. His heart could not have been broken because he was often seen in the more sedate salons that he now frequented with yet another lady whom he had met even before he went to Spainl She was a sister of one of his Franco-American officers. She was even more beautiful than Madame de Hunolstein and, unlike poor Agla, was witty and intelligent. There was a kind of magic about Madame de Simiane; when one met her at a social gathering she was so charming, it was said, so ready to be pleased, that one felt
like giving another party especially in her honor.
It was even said that Aglaé had become thoroughly promiscuous and at night went scouting for lovers in the dark arcades of the Palais Royal
pohick ( talk) 22:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)(1774) at the urging of Noailles and Segur, he found relief in "two romances with celebrated beauties, in which my will played more of a role than my heart." "jealousy smashed the first one before it even started, and in the second, I was less interested in conquering her than triumphing over my rival" -- (1783) by comparison, the Lafayettes were staid: even puritan John Adams commented on their strict repudiation of card playing, gambling, latenight parties, and other fashionable amusements.
Interesting passage:
It is gayer to read of George Lafayette's return from America, and of the unexpected arrival of Lafayette's mysterious admirer, Madame de Simiane, who traveled night and day to see him, and for some time took up her abode with the Lafayettes. The Household of the Lafayettes, Edith Helen Sichel, p. 259
pohick ( talk) 22:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
the letter is in the John Carter Brown Library [10] (not LOC) seems platonic to me, but the rhetoric is flowery, and easy to snip:It is unsigned but in the Lafayette's unmistakable handwriting. (p.100)
as Gottschalk notes, a switch to tutoyer at the end, which he didn't use with Adrienne. (which for me is more shocking than an alleged affair) the letter seems to show the family consternation of gossip without bitching. there seems to be a series of ladies gushing over Lafayette, giving him money etc. it's not clear to me how much was consumated pohick ( talk) 23:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)You have known me; you have loved me in every respect .... All that you are, all that I owe you, justifies my love and nothing, not even you, would keep me from adoring you
Here's Burton's take:
Taking their cue from Lafayette’s letters of bereavement and Anastasie’s biography of her mother: historians have interpreted Adrienne’s death as the culmination of a love story. After all, Adrienne's last words to Lafayette [whose extra-marital affairs in his youth, including the one with Mme de Simiane whom she had forgiven, had been known to her] had been quite touching: “Je suis toute a vous.”
maybe we should write her to ask for the reference- Burton, p.15 pohick ( talk) 20:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Our present treatment is about like telling the Kent State Massacre as an act of self-defense by the Ohio National Guard. In both cases, the view is verifiably one existing view; but we should not endorse it in Wikipedia's voice. Like the Boston Massacre, the civilian population was stoning the troops (and in Paris, there may have been shots as well, although Buckman says there was one gunman, and his gun misfired - I gather citing Lafayette); the troops fired back and killed several people (I believe 20 is a very low estimate). Lafayette and Bailly tried to restrain the troops, not the mob. I have tagged accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"He was educated by his aunt and two priests, Curé de Saint-Roch de Chavaniac. " - makes little sense. What is this supposed to mean? Or what is the name of the second priest? Ohconfucius ( talk) 09:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
"Lafayette found that the Continental Congress did not have the money for his voyage; hence he paid for the ship La Victoire himself" I think it's supposed to mean he paid for the trip, but it reads like he bought the entire craft... Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I can cite 'George Washington's World' by Genevive Foster. Noghiri ( talk) 20:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I was recently reading an article about Washington and Lafeyette in the Smithsonian magazine. They told of a great speech made in retort to Napoleon's brother after the battle of Waterloo. Napoleon's brother was berating the Assembly/Parliament/congress (not my expert subject obviously) for lacking the will to stick with Napoleon after his latest defeat. Lafeyette emerged from the back row, much to the surprise of others, and gave a speech to the effect taht millions of french men had died for Napoleon, don't dare question France's will. It effectively ended the debate. I think it should be added here, if it is in fact true. What do you think, and is it true? Thanks for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.190.142 ( talk) 01:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
James R. Gaines. Adapted from the book For Liberty and Glory: Washington, Lafayette and Their RevolutionsLafayette returned to France in 1799 but stayed out of politics until 1815, when he was elected to the National Assembly in time to put the weight of his revolutionary-era credentials behind the call for Napoleon to abdicate after Waterloo. When the emperor's brother, Lucien Bonaparte, came before the assembly to denounce the attempt as that of a weak-willed nation, Lafayette silenced him. "By what right do you dare accuse the nation of...want of perseverance in the emperor's interest?" he asked. "The nation has followed him on the fields of Italy, across the sands of Egypt and the plains of Germany, across the frozen deserts of Russia.... The nation has followed him in fifty battles, in his defeats and in his victories, and in doing so we have to mourn the blood of three million Frenchmen." [12]
"C'est donc son arrière-grand-père, le comte de La Rivière, ancien lieutenant général des Armées du Roi qui s'occupera de lui. ", whereas the English text says he was raised by his paternal grandmother. Ohconfucius ( talk) 09:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, this is likely way too long of a response, but I believe it clears up the inconsistency. We could likely order our paragraph better; to indicate his mother's actions before she died. Kindly, Lazulilasher ( talk) 17:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Good reply, thanks. Just spotted that his father died on 1 August 1759, but the french version says 9 juillet 1759... Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
If, as is claimed, LF's father was killed at the Battle of Minden during the Seven Years' War, then the date of his death is 1 August 1759. Frania W. ( talk) 18:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
i added the verbiage about the capture based on his notes, however check out the French website with pictures: http://www.eix.be/rochefort/histoire/rumeur/lafayette/lafayette.html ROCHEFORT, Histoire Faits et divers Ragots, rumeurs, cancans et potins, Marie Joseph Gilbert Motier, marquis de la Fayette pohick ( talk) 23:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not entirely convinced that an article, which has evolved in British English, should suddenly be changed to US English. Indeed, Lafayette gained honorary US Citizenship, but in fact remained a French subject and died in France. Having said that, it's no big deal as all instances of non-American spelling appear to have been changed, so I won't revert it. Ohconfucius ( talk) 08:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I have begun attempting to reconcile the version of events, again between the French and English versions, and have added a small paragraph on his captivity, sourced from the French article. I am slightly stuck for the moment, as it seems that there are some gross inconsistencies, especially in terms of dates (and timelines). On examining the French article, I find it leaves much to be desired. In particular, its citations are not always relevant, and often lacking in references to cited text (which I have tagged accordingly). Nevertheless, the French article asserts that Lafayette was transferred from Wesel to Neisse, where he was held until 1795 and then moved to Olomouc, where he supposedly spent 5 years; his wife was apparently arrested twice - once in 1792 (released soon thereafter) and again in 1794 (to be released January 1795). Adrienne supposedly shared gaol time with her husband until his release (no date here). Ohconfucius ( talk) 05:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
ok went to loc; got sequence of letters by Laf at various prisons:
note the gaps, but I will incorporate in the text. pohick ( talk) 00:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't entirely sure if the mention of Hamilton was relevent in the encyclopedic sense. I know his couragousness wasn't though and it seemed a little clunky and misplaced. If anyone, especially the editors doing the big overhaul, think it fits, please go ahead and add it back in a not so not NOPV way. -- Leodmacleod ( talk) 01:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I discuss my changes to the article on Lafayette's honorary US citizenship over at the Talk page for that article. Summary: Lafayette became a full-fledged citizen of Maryland in 1784 and, thus, the United States in 1789; his is the one case in which "honorary" does not mean "symbolic only." YLee ( talk) 08:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I merged/moved Londonbroil's footnote transcript of the relevant portion of the newspaper article (thanks for that, by the way), along with the detailed discussion of Lafayette's US citizenship, into the article body; such detail does not belong in the summary. I also removed the commentary about the meaning of the phrase "natural born citizen" from Londonbroil's footnote; not only is it WP:OR, it is irrelevant. I discuss this issue in Talk:Honorary citizen of the United States, but I see I need to explain further.
Article Two of the US Constitution prohibits anyone who is not a natural-born citizen of the United States--that is, someone who was not born a US citizen--from becoming President, but it also has a one-time provision that extends the definition of the phrase to everyone who was a US citizen when the Constitution was ratified; otherwise, neither Washington nor anyone else would've been eligible for the office! In other words, Lafayette was not only an American citizen, he was eligible for the Presidency; thus, he was a "natural born citizen" as much as any of the Founding Fathers. (By the way, for some reason many people believe that Alexander Hamilton was ineligible for the Presidency because he was born in Bermuda; some even go further and claim that Article Two was crafted by his political enemies to disqualify him. Hamilton could've been born on Mars; he was an American citizen when the constitution was ratified and thus eligible. Period.) YLee ( talk) 04:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
While reading this entry I noticed a difference concerning the names of the ship that Lafayette sailed on. According to French history he sailed on L'Hermione (not mentioned in the French entry), where as in the English version it states the name of his ship as "La Victoire". Can some one please point out to me a confirmed source in English for verification?
"Many streets around the world are named for Lafayette, such as Lafayette Street in Williston Park, New York and Lafayette Street in Lower Manhattan, New York."
Do we have any examples of streets named after him that are not in the USA or in France? Right now it's saying more or less "Streets have his name in two different parts of the same city" 121.45.206.2 ( talk) 05:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states that there is a Lafayette Avenue in Brooklyn but fails to mention that there is a LaFayette Avenue also in the Bronx's Throggs Neck section. I grew up a half block away from that avenue.
on the bottom of the page of most people with hereditary titles there is a table. why does Lafayette not have one? also, does anyone have his Coat of Arms? 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 19:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
his name is so long, I tried to understand it by reading French name, but that didn't help. I understand part is his title, but could someone explain it? 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 19:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
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The section cited from Tuckerman page 198 previously said roughly, "... was opposed to new taxes and advocated cutting spending". This seemed a bit too close to the political slogans we hear nowadays, and in my curiosity about whether or not someone would actually put words in the marquis's mouth, I checked the source in question.
Here is a link on google books to the actual page: http://books.google.com/books?id=C7kYAAAAYAAJ&vq=198&dq=lafayette%20chief%20of%20staff&pg=PA198#v=onepage&q=tax&f=false
In fact, what the source says is that the marquis was vigorously against raising taxes while the king and his government were wasting it on "useless estates and gifts for courtiers". That is, he was chastising the king for wasting money that had been collected from the hard-working people of france, and that it was immoral or unethical to piss it away on nonsense.
This is, as I expected, quite a bit more subtle than the tiresome slogan of "lower taxes and cut spending" we hear about constantly these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.7.82.22 ( talk) 08:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't see how that differs from contemporary political thought (opposition to high taxes and and government waste). Although I am pretty sure more people today would view the French regime's expenditures with less favorable light, than their own governments. 98.206.155.53 ( talk) 23:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
the blazon is "gules, a bordure vair, a bend or" On the shield a marquis's coronet, below the shield the order of St. Louis. I am not sure where this would go. source: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/famous/misc.htm 98.206.155.53 ( talk) 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the Ancestry section states that "Members of his family were noted for a contempt for danger," and gives an anonymous source. The page cited does not make this fanciful claim, and, since the source is from 1825 - when books were more hagiography than scholarship - the sentence should be expunged, along with the questionable citation. The sentences immediately after this are fine and should remain Asburyparker ( talk) 17:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The article neglects these significant periods in La Fayette's life. Currently it jumps from his birth straight to his American adventures! Where are they? Information on his education and early career is well documented; surprised nobody has bothered to include it in the man's bio!
The result of the proposal was not moved. The arguments opposed to moving are significantly stronger than those who wish to rename. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette → Marquis de Lafayette –, per WP:COMMMONNAME. The proposed form is used by Encyclopedia of World Biography and by The Oxford Companion to American Military History. Hundreds of books use it in their titles. This ngram suggests that "Marquis de Lafayette" is vastly more common than any version of the name that includes "Gilbert du Motier." Contemporaries also used the proposed form, as you can see here.relisted -- Mike Cline ( talk) 14:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC) Kauffner ( talk) 13:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
What is this event? A (bad) joke? (it figured in the list of battles but I had no idea of how to delete it) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.27.100.115 ( talk) 13:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I found four brief mentions of Masonic membership: one when determining to go to America, one when arriving there, one when meeting Washington, and one re the laying monument cornerstones on his 1824 visit. This hardly appears enough to make a separate section. J.J.Nutt's 1891 Newburgh: Her Institution, Industries and Leading Citizens describes Lafayette's visit to that upriver town when on Wednesday September 14, 1824 "a deputation from Hiram Lodge, F.&A.M., invited and accompanied the General, his son and M.Levasseur to the lodge room in the hotel building, where he was received with Masonic honors, and the Rev.Dr. John Brown delivered to him an address, to which Lafayette made an eloquent and appropriate answer. After an introduction to his Masonic brethren , he retired ...." Granted this is not a scholarly tome but an account of an event that people remembered. I expect a similar welcome occurred in other places. Is this in anyway controversial? Mannanan51 ( talk) 04:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Recommend a reference to the Lafayette Escadrille of World War I be included: /info/en/?search=Lafayette_Escadrille — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altemuej ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Done Added to the see also with other stuff named after him.
Richard-of-Earth (
talk)
20:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
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This set of sentences is VERY ambiguous: "Lafayette spent the first part of the winter of 1780–81 in Philadelphia . . ." and then, at the beginning of the next paragraph: "After the Continental victory at the Battle of Cowpens in South Carolina in January 1781, Washington ordered Lafayette to re-form his force and go south to Virginia . . ." This leads the reader to believe that Cowpens is south of Virginia, which is not the case. I would suggest rewording the second sentence/paragraph to suggest Lafayette was coming from Philadelphia. For example: "After the Continental victory at the Battle of Cowpens in South Carolina in January 1781, Washington ordered Lafayette to re-form his force in Philadelphia and go south to Virginia . . ." 2602:306:BC85:1320:85F4:A3EB:1779:CAD ( talk) 23:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
User:Wehwalt: rv. The image does not have proper licensing and would the article would not pass FAC with it there, accordingly I remove it. Please add required information such as the painter to the image page on commons and then re-add it to this article
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nickname- America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman
Kananiali ( talk) 06:36, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
The infobox shows the tricolor flag for the Kingdom of France during the Bourbon restoration, but it did not use that. It brought back the fleur-de-lys. Funnyhat ( talk) 22:29, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
It would be good if the article were to present an explanation of what the name "La Fayette" means, especially with so many things and places named after the Marquis. I have yet to find a source that is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia, but I did find an excellent explanation so I will post it here, and hopefully someone will be able to get this info up to the standard where we can add it to the article:
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Hello, can you add "The Hero of the Two Worlds" under nicknames?
Zotronic ( talk) 18:32, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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Please add "America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman" to his nicknames, because that is what he is called in the modern age. OliviaM81 ( talk) 22:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Do you think these sources would be reliable if I am looking to add a section on Lafayette's opinion on slavery? If you have any other references you think would be useful please let me know. Thank you! http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/marquis-de-lafayettes-plan-for-slavery/ http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/lafayette/exhibition/english/abolitionist/ https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/marquis-de-lafayette "Lafayette and Slavery; From His Letters to Thomas Clarkson and Granville Sharp" by Melvin D. Kennedy https://rare.library.cornell.edu/collections/europe/france/lafayette — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorte106 ( talk • contribs) 03:06, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Someone had added the description "America's Favourite Fighting Frenchman" to the Wikidata entry; it was showing up on mobile. I removed it from there, FYI. Robaato ( talk) 09:20, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
In the "Beliefs" section, there was a non-grammatical phrase, introduced by Jorte106 in edit 2017-03-19T20:00:51:
My guess is that "good" was used instead of "could" because of its phonetic similarity. To fix that problem and two other nearby issues, I replaced that phrase with edit 2017-03-30T14:37:08. I changed it to:
I am not sure that's exactly what the original editor intended, but it seems plausible, and the sentence now makes grammatical sense.
I also note that the whole paragraph has a cite to encyclopedia.com, but that the encyclopedia.com article does not support the paragraph. I believe that the paragraph needs better support, but that's a different discussion.
-- Peter Kaminski ( talk) 21:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
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America's Favorite Fighting Frenchman to Lafayette's description. From musical 'Hamilton' Skyerocket ( talk) 04:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC) Skyerocket ( talk) 04:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Surprised that an addition I made to the "Further reading" section was reverted. What I added was the 201-page catalog for a major exhibition on Lafayette's farewell tour of America that included scholarly essays and was supported by a grant by the National Endowment for the Humanities. The publication included hundreds of illustrations. This was a joint publication by the Queens Museum (New York City) and the University Press of New England, with a print run of five thousand. Fort Greene 2010 ( talk) 16:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Add another nickname to Lafayette, and make one called "America's Favorite FrenchMan." LargeBaguette ( talk) 11:58, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi Wehwalt, what is the problem? I have managed artworks in the Wikipedia before and know a bit on Commons. It meets the full criteria for a free license picture. It is attached to the wall permanently in Pasai Donibane (also called Pasajes), Basque Country, and therefore meets the criteria for exhibition. Is it a FA specific condition? What could ever compromise its showing in this article? Thanks Iñaki LL ( talk) 07:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
In at least two instances, this article does not maintain a neutral point of view. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Instance 1):
"Decline: Flight to Varennes and Champs de Mars massacre
On 20 June 1791, a plot, dubbed the Flight to Varennes, almost allowed the king to escape from France. As leader of the National Guard, Lafayette had been responsible for the royal family's custody. He was thus blamed by extremists like Danton for the near-escape and called a traitor to the people by Robespierre."
"Extremists" is a subjective word. Extreme compared to what or to whom? A person who advocated for the abolition of slavery 200 years ago would have been called an "extremist." Suggest: "leaders," "other leaders," or "radical leaders." Danton was radical in comparison to the milieu at the time, but would have been considered a "moderate" during the period of the Committee of Public Safety under Robespierre (which had Danton and Desmoulins executed).
Instance 2) In the same section:
"Martial law was declared, and the leaders of the mob, such as Danton and Marat, fled or went into hiding . . . "
"of the mob" is again a subjective appellation. Suggest "popular leaders." Note: Danton at the time did not hold official office, but was a popular leader and in the Cordelier's club, one of many such political clubs formed in the immediate aftermath of 1789. Marat was a publisher, and a noted scientific writer prior to the Revolution.
With respect to the use of the term "mob." A mob is a negative and subjective appellation. There is no wikipedia entry for Paris Mob or the Revolutionary Mob. The article indicates Danton and Marat were leaders of something that cannot be defined precisely and has no wikipedia definition. There is a wikipedia entry for "Sans-Cullotes" of which it can be fairly said that Marat was a (not the) leader of the Parisan Sans-Cullottes (among other groups such as readers of his journal). /info/en/?search=Sans-culottes.
This is not a debate about the subject, these are non-neutral appellations which violate the rule. The suggested edits are minor. Please rectify these violations. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.129.178 ( talk) 12:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)