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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions for the period January 2007 to October/End 2008. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Clearly critics of Israel are automatically anti-semitic for many. But is this appropriate for Atzmon? Certainly his writings suggest that he crosses the line between the two ideologies, for instance his assertion that American policy in the Middle East is derived from a particular lobby group. However, I have taken the view that to accuse him of anti-semitism is POV, whereas anti-zionism is used here as a neutral term, albeit unsatisfactorily realised in Atzmon's case. In the introduction he should be taken on his own terms, and the issues referred to as the article progresses. Philip Cross 21:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC) [I was too generous to Atzmon a year ago. Philip Cross 22:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Edna’s last version is by far supirior. It should be re posted immediately, Rance should then add his meaningless links to names and articles written by people no one has ever heard of.
Isarig. the fact that Atzmon is accused of antisemitism in 2.5 Jewish tribal sites such as JSF or JPUK is of limited relevance. We are talking here about a man with a massive body of work.
zizitop
From EdnaS: It is very interesting to watch what is unfolding on wiki. Who is RolandR accusing of being my sock puppet? Zizi? I suggest we ask the wiki admin to do a check on IP numbers for all of us. I in fact am not calling for the restoring of my last edit on the Gilad Atzmon page¸ but am calling for the restoration of the excellent page submitted later by Nihipri¸ which was immediately removed by RolandR and his co-worker Isarig (sock puppet?)with no reasons given.
I was really amazed at the amount of non-judgemental¸ neutral and interesting information Nihipri had included¸ and realised how much research must have gone into this. To suppress this information is sheer vandalism. Who is RolandR to decide to withhold all those links from the public. A wealth of info¸ and written in a very neutral sytle. I do not see any embroidery in the information.
And for RolandR to extend his censoring of info on wiki to even deleting a call for 3rd opinion is outrageous. RR has an agenda here. We have reached the point where we need to call for mediation. I will be restoring my posting on the 3rd party page. Ednas 13:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Not really, Atzmon doesn’t take Jewish anti Zionists very seriously, he establishes the fact that they are nothing but crypto Zionists. He include them within his 3rd Category. And indeed, 3rd category Jews see an antisemite in Atzmon. So what. is it enough to make him into an antisemite? not really. 3rd category Jews see as well Hamas as a threat. Does this teach us about the Hamas? Not really.
Down to the point. Atzmon success in ridiculing 3rd category Jews is just a marginal part of his political writing, thus, the entry shouldn’t concentrate on that though it should be mentioned. Zizitop. 9.1.06 3am
Ednas 07:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi and Felix¸ let’s get going then. I suggest we start with a broad comparison of the two versions¸ and come to some agreement about which one to have running while we work on the editing. I suggest that we work from the more inclusive¸ informative version¸ which is also less polemical and then decide what to incorporate from the Rance version. I also think the subtitles of music¸ literature¸ political writing and politics should remain as is¸ with perhaps one more as felix suggests¸ dealing with the controversy and labeling. Please respond soon so that we can speed up this editing process somewhat.
Ednas 09:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Just been to see Gilad Atzmon this evening, indeed his set was like "being in a furnace", 'blinding, even, I'd say.... But is this NPOV??? I'd put it on my blog but not on wikipedia, can we tne down the hyperbole, even if it does reflect Gilad's gigs??? quercus robur 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I take your point about my comment bigging him up a little, but I am trying to convey the point that his style is very full on, high energy, fast, powerful, noisy, as opposed to some jazz musicians who might be described as soft, quiet, delicate, subtle - this is not Gilad's style. If you know what I mean, please rephrase the text keeping the point I am making but using less emotive language. Where was he playing by the way ?
Added more bio type stuff to the music section-perhaps a section for awards too? Felix-felix 11:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the description of Atzmon as "left wing", since he appears to reject this, both as a self-description and even as a useful term. See for instance the interview at [1], wher he says: "I argue that left and right are dated concepts. I am interested in an authentic moral thinking, something that is not found amongst our contemporary politicians". RolandR 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I have replaced the quote from Atzmon's essay "On Anti-Semitism" [2], "American Jews (in fact Zionists) do try to control the world, by proxy", with the phrase now to be found there "American Jews (in fact Zionists) do control the world". The original citation was not incorrect; it appears that since then, Atzmon himself has amended, and sharpened, his comment. RolandR 19:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This para was in, but deleted, then put back in, maybe twice now. I don't see what's wrong with it.
In an exchange of letters with anti-Zionist activist Deborah Maccoby during February and March 2006, Atzmon described her as a "modern day Christ killer", after she described Jesus as human rather than divine. [3]
BobFromBrockley 18:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Isarig has removed from the article the assertion that Atzmon's books are "banned in Israel". As anyone who can read Hebrew can see, they are freely available even in Hebrew translation -- see Academon, Bookme and many more bookshop sites. In fact, one of his novels was nominated for a literary prize in Israel [4]. RolandR 01:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
To editors that keep revereting each other: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is now protected. Please discuss in talk and find some common ground to improve the article. When you are ready to resume editing, you may place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi there
We have a situation where extremely interesting¸ relevant and up to date info from the poster Nihipri has been vandalised repeatedly b Isarig and RolanR¸ and now the page is protected with their version¸ all the new info deleted again. They have an agenda to make sure the info on GA remains very superficial¸ without any meat¸ and portrays him in a bad light. I do not think leaving the entry protected with their information as is in the interests of anyone and would like to call for some mediation here.
Just comparing the two versions – the one which Isarig and Roland R have been insisting remains as it for ages¸ and the new info¸ it becomes clear which is more relevant¸ interesting and NEUTRAL.
I am relatively new to Wiki¸ but would like to know what can be done about this now?
It seems to me that wiki is not an encclopedia at all¸ but a disinformation site¸ controlled and protected by Zionist moles. That’s is how it is looking from where I stand.
Ednas 09:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Calton"
To Ednas: What could be done now is for us to discuss, in a civil way, the changes you want to introduce into the article, reach consensus, and then add them. As a practical suggestion, there seems to be agreement that the information about the ensemble and the awards it won is relevant and important. Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at suggesting a suitable paragraph? Here's something I'd be ok with, based on your contribution:
Yep, the first part is fairly easy, the article is split into music and politics sections-the former uncontroversial and factual, the latter more controversial-given Atzmon's controversial remarks. However, it seems to me that 2 editors are trying to portray Atzmon in a particularly bad light-quotes (of questionable relevance-like the 'Christ killer' quote) taken somewhat out of context, and positive ones removed repeatedly. So, how about straightforward WP editing of his music and then careful consensus reaching about his writing?
Felix-felix
15:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that is a good solution. I would be willing to help with this. Ednas 16:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I am more than willing to assist with the editing of the Atzmon info. However¸ first I would like the info submitted by Nihipri to be restored¸ and would like us to work from that info. It is outrageous that the Wiki admin protected the page in the version restored by Roland Rance¸ a completely biased “editor”¸ with an agenda against GA. I would also like Wiki admin to block Rance¸ Isarig (Rosen?)and Maccoby permanently from editing the GA info. This is the most obvious first step¸ and should have been done ages ago. Ednas 09:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Ednas, you have to realise that the name-calling stuff will have to be addressed at somepoint in the article, and we're all going to have to agree about it, so clearly delineating where various things are going to go and being careful about using original sources (which the current version does not), I think we can produce a good article. Whaddya reckon? Felix-felix 13:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi and Felix¸ let’s get going then. I suggest we start with a broad comparison of the two versions¸ and come to some agreement about which one to have running while we work on the editing. I suggest that we work from the more inclusive¸ informative version¸ which is also less polemical and then decide what to incorporate from the Rance version. I also think the subtitles of music¸ literature¸ political writing and politics should remain as is¸ with perhaps one more as felix suggests¸ dealing with the controversy and labeling. Please respond soon so that we can speed up this editing process somewhat. Ednas 09:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
RR continues...the Nihipri section on music, and to submit it to Talk for discussion and approval. Then we can move on to his novels. RolandR 12:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Gilad Atzmon's own statements, whatever view one takes of them, are verifiable. Many of them are published on his own website, so he presumably takes full responsibility for them. Others are posted under his own name on other websites, and have never been disowned by him, so one can assume that he accepts these too. Many of them are responses to articles by other people; it would be unacceptable to include GA's responses without including the texts to which they were a reply.
GA is indeed a controversial figure, and readers turning to Wikipedia for information will expect, and are entitled, to know why he is controversial. It would be silly to have an article about him which pretended that none of this existed, particularly when people can turn to Google and find dozens of pieces discussing this.
Wikipedia does not need to take a position on these controversies. But it does need to report both viewpoints fairly, with the references which allow readers to follow this up. RolandR 20:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, the current picture is about to be deleted as it is a copyvio, which is my fault. Does anyone have any non-copyright pics which we could upload? Felix-felix 14:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I mailed GA at the address on his site and he responded that the pic wiki has been using belongs to him and that Wiki can continue using it. Also asked about the issue re banning of his first book and his reponse is that it was banned 2 weeks after publication but the ban was later lifted. Ednas 21:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
GA confirms that the image wiki has been using belongs to him and is copyright-free. Ednas 12:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Donald GA has said that he can send an email but the address is not clear. Could U let me have the address and the filenameof the pic in question. Thanks. Ednas 09:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP
When it comes to this articlee I think we need to follow Wiki Remove unsourced and poorly sourced material
Namely; (with my emphasis added)
Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages.
When it comes to GA's controversial or fringe views and his politics we should apply a very strict filter to what is is included in the article. This includes statements in the article and external links to blogs and sites with dubious fact checking. This will probably make the 'politics' section and the 'links' list very short, but it will keep the page from becoming a place to bash or promote GA's fringe beliefs. A brief, neutral mention of his Jewish background and his position on Israel and Palestine is warranted. But any controversial statements or quotes(we should avoid quotes) need to be cited to a real news article, not a blog or 'letter to the editor' or other sub-standard source. Mytwocents 18:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Atzmon has caused some controversy with his outspoken political statements. These are often criticised as anti-Semitic, or cited as evidence of Atzmon being a self-hating Jew. He frequently criticises the Israeli state, comparing it to Nazi Germany, and questions the political framing of the Nazi Holocaust.
From the intro "He has earned many jazz awards". A bullet pointed list would be good. Does anyone know which ones he's won? And won, not been nominated for! Felix-felix 11:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The article is now unprotected. Hope that the last 10 days have been useful in finding some common ground. If editors need any further assistance with the dispute, drop me a message in my talk page. Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is a pretty depressing state of things after all the talk following the protecting of the article. I propose a bit of a spring clean, mainly by splitting the politics section into politics (which would be descriptive) and quotes 1)by him and 2) about him. That should at least start to give the article some shape, cos it's almost unreadable at the moment. An awards section would be good, if anyone knows which awards he's won. I think we should stick strictly to primary sources too. I've started by adding a (free) picture. FelixFelix talk 15:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
He and many others deny it-a violation of WP:BLP and WP:NOP, as one of my recent colleagues is fond of pointing out. It should go. FelixFelix talk 22:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In all of his "editing", Felix-felix has consistently sought to remove any material that potrays Atzmon in any sort of balanced, i.e. less than fully favorable, light, no matter how well-documented that material may be. It is therefore impossible to conclude that he is anything other than a worshipful admirer of Atzmon -perhaps even a personal friend? - who is seeking to impose a throughly one-sided POV agenda. I suggest that he be warned - if not ultimately banned - for his POV violations. More balanced and professional editing in conformance to Wikipedia rules must be instituted.
Including Gilad Atzmon in a category called "Anti-Semitism" is clearly unacceptable under the biographies of living persons policy. It cannot be attached as a blanket category to anyone ever accused of anti-Semitism, because it is a generally pejorative term which will unfairly taint Mr. Atzmon's life and reputation. It cannot be proven that Mr. Atzmon is an anti-Semite, there is no general historical agreement that he is, and he himself vehemently denies it. Throwing him into a blanket category along with Adolf Hitler and Nazism is unacceptable in the extreme. FCYTravis 02:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is unbalanced as it is almost entirely devoted to the subject's political statements. Since the lead implies that he is notable first as a musician, secondly as an author and only thirdly as a political commentator, then surely there should be a list of his works, perhaps with some of the languages they have been translated into, and a discography? I will make a start on the biblio but I think there is a standard form for discography that I am not confident with. Itsmejudith 11:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
At the moment there is no description, and no source, for any original comments that started off the controversy. It starts with Atzmon replying to accusations. What did he originally say, when and where, that made others react so unfavourably? Itsmejudith 23:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As was written a few weeks ago: "In all of his "editing", Felix-felix has consistently sought to remove any material that potrays Atzmon in any sort of balanced, i.e. less than fully favorable, light, no matter how well-documented that material may be. It is therefore impossible to conclude that he is anything other than a worshipful admirer of Atzmon -perhaps even a personal friend? - who is seeking to impose a throughly one-sided POV agenda. I suggest that he be warned - if not ultimately banned - for his POV violations. More balanced and professional editing in conformance to Wikipedia rules must be instituted."
This problem has only gotten worse in the time since then; Felix-felix (who appears to live in London and therefore may be a close political friend of associate of Atzmon's)has continued to engage in excessive POV reverts. Clearly, given his reluctance to learn from his previous "blocks", I think the time has come that he be PERMANENTLY BANNED from future editing of not just this entry, but the site as a whole. I would ask jayjig and other Wikipedia administrators to keep a much closer eye on this serial violator, "Felix-felix".
Goodness! FelixFelix talk 21:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Felix-felix, please don't hide controversial category removals in stealthy ways. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 22:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If I may inquire, why is this page locked?-- Grauniad63 00:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that reviews and interviews are specifically encouraged, and I could see no copyright violation in the 3 which I restored-I have cleaned up the other links as per WP:EL though.If anyone has any music links, they would be really good. FelixFelix talk 16:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Isarig, I removed the part of the passage about Atzmon comparing Israel to Nazi Germany,( a passage that I wrote) because it's redundant, a quote doing literally that appears in the quote section. So, it's not a whitewash-just a cleanup. FelixFelix talk 17:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the way to avoid this being yet another pissin' match WP article with supporters putting in the nicest stuff and detractors putting in the nastiest stuff, which in the end really says nothing and looks amateurish (because it is amateurish), is to grow up about article writing and buy the man's freakin' books and use them to make the article truly substantive, plus about 75% longer. Novel idea, maybe, but hey. Cryptographic hash 03:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure what you think is redundant about the statement that he compares Israel to Nazi Germany. Perhaps you think that once we said he is a critic of Israel, nothing more needs to be said, but this is false. Criticisms of Israel and/or her policies may range from the mild, nearly uncontroversial claim that Israel could do more to preserve the natural coastal sand dunes by limiting urban sprawl, to the extremist position that Israel is an illegitimate estate with no right to exist. On this spectrum, a comparison with Nazi Germany is clearly on the extreme end, and thus it is not at all redundant to describe where on the spectrum of critics Atzmon lays. Isarig 01:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry chaps, but the fun is over. Wiki will face legal consequences if it continues to publish this article on Gilad Atzmon, which is vandalised on an almost daily basis, and if his name is not removed from the category, anti-semitism. He will follow up shortly with a letter to wiki admin. Thanks for your co-operation, but take note that the blissful libel days are over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magienoir ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
While I doubt today's vandalism or the above is a comment from Atzmon or his representatives, I was getting ready to delete the following anyway. I do know that Atzmon himself aggressively defends his reputation against constant (and often dubious) accusations of antisemtisim. WP:BLP cautions us to be conservative in making accusations without very reliable sources. Plus WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE indicates deleting the following entries best way to go:
Carol Moore 15:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
(<-)Carol, your changes to the Arab News intro masked the point that Atzmon does not like the comparison because he believes modern Israel is worse than Nazi Germany. I have left your construction, but added a sentence in the intro to restore accuracy, and added an Atzmon sentence in the quotation to support it. -- Avi ( talk) 17:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't sure, so it cannot hurt to clarify it for the reader, and bring reliable sources to back it up. As for the order, I just put it into what i believe is chronological, as Atzmon's responses are 12/2006, I believe. Another option is to put all criticism in one subsectin, and his response in another—logical as opposed to chronological. -- Avi ( talk) 18:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Carol, you are correct when you say we cannot quote a subject and then in-article use that quote to criticize the subject. However, that is not was is happening vis-a-vis the ArabNews quote. rather, we are quoting what he said in the section on his politics. It is incontravertible that he claims that the comparison between Israel and nazi Germany is incorrect, as Israel is worse. It is that kind of statement, and the response it engenders, from all sides of the political spectrum, that makes him notable. So quoting his own words without adding any editorial commentary is not only allowed, but recommended. Let us bring his own statements and let the reader decide. -- Avi ( talk) 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The article listed The Guardian amongst the places where Atzmon has been published. ("Atzon is a political writer who has been published by----".) (Indeed, it was listed first, probably because it is the most authoritative of the publications.) The footnote was this: Gilad Atzmon, A Response to David Hirsh, The Guardian, December 12, 2006. I have removed this, because it is not, as (a) he was published at the Guardian's blog site, Comment is Free (CiF), which is very different from being published in the newspaper, and (b) what they published was a right to reply piece - initially a comment on the blog post - which the Guardian make very clear, in the introduction to the post, is far from an endorsement of his views. It is, therefore, tendentious to claim the Guardian has published Atzmon. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 08:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
My original edit: About most of the former and current "Jewish Marxist" members of the "bund" (the General Jewish Labor Union), he writes:
RolandR's re-edit of my statement reads: Writing about the Jewish revolutionary Marxists of the "Bund" (the General Jewish Labor Union), he writes:
This is a paragraph about what he says, NOT about what people want people to think he wrote or about what they think he should have written. Therefore it should revert to my original edit. Also, if RolandR is a member of the "bund" he should reveal that WP:COI. Carol Moore 20:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Please look this: http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/10/10/gilad-atzmon-the-credit-crunch-is-a-zio-punch/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.61.51 ( talk) 21:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I really think the whole article is getting there, so adding gratuitious insults from opinion pieces doesn't help. Once I get over my head cold will decide if it should be taken to WP:BLP noticeboard as being overly POV negative or whatever... Carol Moore 14:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
User:Drsmoo and User:Antifacist have chosen to edit this article with POV edits and even insulting edit summaries. After I reverted their changes a few times User:Avraham (Avi) has threatened to get me in trouble under the WP:3RR (3 revert rule], even though policy clearly says Wikipedia:3rr#Exceptions "Reverting the addition of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced controversial material which violates the policy on biographies of living persons." Therefore I have invited all three to participate in cooperative editing on this article. Below are specific problems with these edits that I consider violations of BLP - some very serious. Please do not intersperse your replies in my original message which I will keep intact. Copy whatever you are going to reply to to your response.
Finally I think that Politics and Allegations of antisemitism should be separate sections, so I no longer object to using that in a section title. Carol Moore 17:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
A good article on Atzmon
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1559.
For starters, Israel Shamir is not an "Activist writer" he is an anti-semite plain and simple. And Gilad Atzmon is a holocaust denier as well, to the extent that he even denies that the concept of Holocaust denial and anti-semitism exist. There's no compromise or middle ground here. The facts of the matter are he's a delusional bigot. Drsmoo ( talk) 17:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 17:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC
<---Avi, I hope you noticed that we discussed above letting each other know what edits were were going to make before hand, as I did below. But if I have any problems with them I'll let you know. Remember some WP:RS info and references were removed by vandals and others and I'm still trying to get back them back in there. But if you make some changes I suggested, Yeah! Carol Moore 19:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)Carol, I believe you have misread the pertinent policy. Let me quote it in full (emphasis added is my own):
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
If the source would pass WP:V and WP:RS in its own language, it is acceptable for EnWiki, if there is no appropriate English language source that has the same information, so I believe you are mistaken regarding the policy, Carol. I am not making any qualitative or quantitative statement about the source in and of itself, other than WP:V#English does not necessarily forbid its use. We use Arabic citations on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for example (BBC Persian), but require the English version of Al Jazeera articles where they exist. -- Avi ( talk) 18:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Evening full of dissonance
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(<-)Carol, it is true that Google translates the word "mehrere" as "several". In Yiddish, "mehr" however can mean "many" or "more" so that is why we need to ask a German speaker whether in context the word means "many" or "several". An acceptable solution would be to remove the word "Many" from the sentence pending confirmation from German speakers. Removing the quote in and of itself may be construed as a POV whitewashing attempt. Also, I do not believe that the use of the term "many" qualifies the entire article for a POV tag. The sources brought, so far, seem to be reliable, and the accusations of anti-semitism exist and are sourced. While discussion should be had on how to best represent the accusations and the responses to said accusations, I remain uncertain that the tagging is appropriate in this case. -- Avi ( talk) 19:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Update from a German speaker: original article is from a reliable source (a respectable local paper; and it reports that he said "there is no forensic evidence" for the number of dead Jews being 6000000; which cannot be read as a claim for any other number, never mind zero. Rd232 talk
Ie those that follow wiki policies closely but have been reverted against wiki policy. Please comment with reference to wiki policy if you disagree, not personal opinion. But remember things clearly vs. BLP can be removed immediately and repeatedly...
Carol, the source is in German, not Dutch. and in turn comes from an RS, namely 'Ruhr Nachrichten (Bochum)'. Actually, as reported this ref does not make Atzmon out to be a Holocaust denier of the Irving type. He is cited as questioned the figure of 6 million, and argued that there was no forensic proof/evidence for that 6,000,000. I don't see why this cannot be reported here. Readers can draw their own conclusions, as to whether he is equivocating or whether he blew his top at the 'round', 'upper limit' figure of 6 million, when even serious scholars have calculated nearly a million less (Raul Hilberg thought 5,100,000, Yehuda Bauer is for the figure Atzmon contested), and what he understood by a phrase like 'forensic proof/evidence'. I find these ambiguities deeply distasteful. But the source is reliable, the language source not really problematical as long as one gets a bilingual German/English native speaker to construe it with great precision (it has some grammatical niceties). If anything it is far too succinct, and vague to be definitive one way or another on Atzmon's views, in that a bitter altercation betwen him and listeners gets just two or three lines. I side in any case with Avi here, even though I'ìve only edited this page once or twice, and could be viewed as an intruder. Nishidani ( talk) 19:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I have not even begun to vet the political sections; the musical section was a complete mess in itself. I don't think I will have time to do the politics, even just check the links for accuracy now, so I'll take off the {{ inuse}} tag. -- Avi ( talk) 20:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea, Nishdani. My (limited) musical knowledge does not cover jazz at all (maybe a smattering of Dave Brubek). The structure was a mess though, collaborations and albums in paragraphs separated by style and political leanings. I hope that now, at least, there is a coherent skeleton which can be enfleshed by someone more knowledgeable. -- Avi ( talk) 14:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
"Allegations..." is the most neutral way to say that Atzmon has been accused of holding anti-semitic views. Remember the months long discussions on the "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" articles? The accusations of antiSemitic views make him especially notable, so to hide that is, in my opinion, artificially damping the very facts that give this person that extra boost of notability. Thoughts? -- Avi ( talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)An improvement, Carol. Even if it only makes things more structured, that is a definite plus
. My sense of symmetry would like to see the Antisemitism section have the title "Antisemitism" and two subsections "Allegations" and "Responses". But I understand from a connotation perspective that it may be viewed as too negative, so your setup may be preferable. We have a ways to go, but nicely done. --
Avi (
talk)
14:29, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions for the period January 2007 to October/End 2008. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Clearly critics of Israel are automatically anti-semitic for many. But is this appropriate for Atzmon? Certainly his writings suggest that he crosses the line between the two ideologies, for instance his assertion that American policy in the Middle East is derived from a particular lobby group. However, I have taken the view that to accuse him of anti-semitism is POV, whereas anti-zionism is used here as a neutral term, albeit unsatisfactorily realised in Atzmon's case. In the introduction he should be taken on his own terms, and the issues referred to as the article progresses. Philip Cross 21:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC) [I was too generous to Atzmon a year ago. Philip Cross 22:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Edna’s last version is by far supirior. It should be re posted immediately, Rance should then add his meaningless links to names and articles written by people no one has ever heard of.
Isarig. the fact that Atzmon is accused of antisemitism in 2.5 Jewish tribal sites such as JSF or JPUK is of limited relevance. We are talking here about a man with a massive body of work.
zizitop
From EdnaS: It is very interesting to watch what is unfolding on wiki. Who is RolandR accusing of being my sock puppet? Zizi? I suggest we ask the wiki admin to do a check on IP numbers for all of us. I in fact am not calling for the restoring of my last edit on the Gilad Atzmon page¸ but am calling for the restoration of the excellent page submitted later by Nihipri¸ which was immediately removed by RolandR and his co-worker Isarig (sock puppet?)with no reasons given.
I was really amazed at the amount of non-judgemental¸ neutral and interesting information Nihipri had included¸ and realised how much research must have gone into this. To suppress this information is sheer vandalism. Who is RolandR to decide to withhold all those links from the public. A wealth of info¸ and written in a very neutral sytle. I do not see any embroidery in the information.
And for RolandR to extend his censoring of info on wiki to even deleting a call for 3rd opinion is outrageous. RR has an agenda here. We have reached the point where we need to call for mediation. I will be restoring my posting on the 3rd party page. Ednas 13:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Not really, Atzmon doesn’t take Jewish anti Zionists very seriously, he establishes the fact that they are nothing but crypto Zionists. He include them within his 3rd Category. And indeed, 3rd category Jews see an antisemite in Atzmon. So what. is it enough to make him into an antisemite? not really. 3rd category Jews see as well Hamas as a threat. Does this teach us about the Hamas? Not really.
Down to the point. Atzmon success in ridiculing 3rd category Jews is just a marginal part of his political writing, thus, the entry shouldn’t concentrate on that though it should be mentioned. Zizitop. 9.1.06 3am
Ednas 07:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi and Felix¸ let’s get going then. I suggest we start with a broad comparison of the two versions¸ and come to some agreement about which one to have running while we work on the editing. I suggest that we work from the more inclusive¸ informative version¸ which is also less polemical and then decide what to incorporate from the Rance version. I also think the subtitles of music¸ literature¸ political writing and politics should remain as is¸ with perhaps one more as felix suggests¸ dealing with the controversy and labeling. Please respond soon so that we can speed up this editing process somewhat.
Ednas 09:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Just been to see Gilad Atzmon this evening, indeed his set was like "being in a furnace", 'blinding, even, I'd say.... But is this NPOV??? I'd put it on my blog but not on wikipedia, can we tne down the hyperbole, even if it does reflect Gilad's gigs??? quercus robur 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I take your point about my comment bigging him up a little, but I am trying to convey the point that his style is very full on, high energy, fast, powerful, noisy, as opposed to some jazz musicians who might be described as soft, quiet, delicate, subtle - this is not Gilad's style. If you know what I mean, please rephrase the text keeping the point I am making but using less emotive language. Where was he playing by the way ?
Added more bio type stuff to the music section-perhaps a section for awards too? Felix-felix 11:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the description of Atzmon as "left wing", since he appears to reject this, both as a self-description and even as a useful term. See for instance the interview at [1], wher he says: "I argue that left and right are dated concepts. I am interested in an authentic moral thinking, something that is not found amongst our contemporary politicians". RolandR 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I have replaced the quote from Atzmon's essay "On Anti-Semitism" [2], "American Jews (in fact Zionists) do try to control the world, by proxy", with the phrase now to be found there "American Jews (in fact Zionists) do control the world". The original citation was not incorrect; it appears that since then, Atzmon himself has amended, and sharpened, his comment. RolandR 19:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This para was in, but deleted, then put back in, maybe twice now. I don't see what's wrong with it.
In an exchange of letters with anti-Zionist activist Deborah Maccoby during February and March 2006, Atzmon described her as a "modern day Christ killer", after she described Jesus as human rather than divine. [3]
BobFromBrockley 18:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Isarig has removed from the article the assertion that Atzmon's books are "banned in Israel". As anyone who can read Hebrew can see, they are freely available even in Hebrew translation -- see Academon, Bookme and many more bookshop sites. In fact, one of his novels was nominated for a literary prize in Israel [4]. RolandR 01:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
To editors that keep revereting each other: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is now protected. Please discuss in talk and find some common ground to improve the article. When you are ready to resume editing, you may place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi there
We have a situation where extremely interesting¸ relevant and up to date info from the poster Nihipri has been vandalised repeatedly b Isarig and RolanR¸ and now the page is protected with their version¸ all the new info deleted again. They have an agenda to make sure the info on GA remains very superficial¸ without any meat¸ and portrays him in a bad light. I do not think leaving the entry protected with their information as is in the interests of anyone and would like to call for some mediation here.
Just comparing the two versions – the one which Isarig and Roland R have been insisting remains as it for ages¸ and the new info¸ it becomes clear which is more relevant¸ interesting and NEUTRAL.
I am relatively new to Wiki¸ but would like to know what can be done about this now?
It seems to me that wiki is not an encclopedia at all¸ but a disinformation site¸ controlled and protected by Zionist moles. That’s is how it is looking from where I stand.
Ednas 09:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Calton"
To Ednas: What could be done now is for us to discuss, in a civil way, the changes you want to introduce into the article, reach consensus, and then add them. As a practical suggestion, there seems to be agreement that the information about the ensemble and the awards it won is relevant and important. Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at suggesting a suitable paragraph? Here's something I'd be ok with, based on your contribution:
Yep, the first part is fairly easy, the article is split into music and politics sections-the former uncontroversial and factual, the latter more controversial-given Atzmon's controversial remarks. However, it seems to me that 2 editors are trying to portray Atzmon in a particularly bad light-quotes (of questionable relevance-like the 'Christ killer' quote) taken somewhat out of context, and positive ones removed repeatedly. So, how about straightforward WP editing of his music and then careful consensus reaching about his writing?
Felix-felix
15:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that is a good solution. I would be willing to help with this. Ednas 16:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I am more than willing to assist with the editing of the Atzmon info. However¸ first I would like the info submitted by Nihipri to be restored¸ and would like us to work from that info. It is outrageous that the Wiki admin protected the page in the version restored by Roland Rance¸ a completely biased “editor”¸ with an agenda against GA. I would also like Wiki admin to block Rance¸ Isarig (Rosen?)and Maccoby permanently from editing the GA info. This is the most obvious first step¸ and should have been done ages ago. Ednas 09:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Ednas, you have to realise that the name-calling stuff will have to be addressed at somepoint in the article, and we're all going to have to agree about it, so clearly delineating where various things are going to go and being careful about using original sources (which the current version does not), I think we can produce a good article. Whaddya reckon? Felix-felix 13:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi and Felix¸ let’s get going then. I suggest we start with a broad comparison of the two versions¸ and come to some agreement about which one to have running while we work on the editing. I suggest that we work from the more inclusive¸ informative version¸ which is also less polemical and then decide what to incorporate from the Rance version. I also think the subtitles of music¸ literature¸ political writing and politics should remain as is¸ with perhaps one more as felix suggests¸ dealing with the controversy and labeling. Please respond soon so that we can speed up this editing process somewhat. Ednas 09:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
RR continues...the Nihipri section on music, and to submit it to Talk for discussion and approval. Then we can move on to his novels. RolandR 12:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Gilad Atzmon's own statements, whatever view one takes of them, are verifiable. Many of them are published on his own website, so he presumably takes full responsibility for them. Others are posted under his own name on other websites, and have never been disowned by him, so one can assume that he accepts these too. Many of them are responses to articles by other people; it would be unacceptable to include GA's responses without including the texts to which they were a reply.
GA is indeed a controversial figure, and readers turning to Wikipedia for information will expect, and are entitled, to know why he is controversial. It would be silly to have an article about him which pretended that none of this existed, particularly when people can turn to Google and find dozens of pieces discussing this.
Wikipedia does not need to take a position on these controversies. But it does need to report both viewpoints fairly, with the references which allow readers to follow this up. RolandR 20:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, the current picture is about to be deleted as it is a copyvio, which is my fault. Does anyone have any non-copyright pics which we could upload? Felix-felix 14:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I mailed GA at the address on his site and he responded that the pic wiki has been using belongs to him and that Wiki can continue using it. Also asked about the issue re banning of his first book and his reponse is that it was banned 2 weeks after publication but the ban was later lifted. Ednas 21:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
GA confirms that the image wiki has been using belongs to him and is copyright-free. Ednas 12:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Donald GA has said that he can send an email but the address is not clear. Could U let me have the address and the filenameof the pic in question. Thanks. Ednas 09:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP
When it comes to this articlee I think we need to follow Wiki Remove unsourced and poorly sourced material
Namely; (with my emphasis added)
Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages.
When it comes to GA's controversial or fringe views and his politics we should apply a very strict filter to what is is included in the article. This includes statements in the article and external links to blogs and sites with dubious fact checking. This will probably make the 'politics' section and the 'links' list very short, but it will keep the page from becoming a place to bash or promote GA's fringe beliefs. A brief, neutral mention of his Jewish background and his position on Israel and Palestine is warranted. But any controversial statements or quotes(we should avoid quotes) need to be cited to a real news article, not a blog or 'letter to the editor' or other sub-standard source. Mytwocents 18:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Atzmon has caused some controversy with his outspoken political statements. These are often criticised as anti-Semitic, or cited as evidence of Atzmon being a self-hating Jew. He frequently criticises the Israeli state, comparing it to Nazi Germany, and questions the political framing of the Nazi Holocaust.
From the intro "He has earned many jazz awards". A bullet pointed list would be good. Does anyone know which ones he's won? And won, not been nominated for! Felix-felix 11:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The article is now unprotected. Hope that the last 10 days have been useful in finding some common ground. If editors need any further assistance with the dispute, drop me a message in my talk page. Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is a pretty depressing state of things after all the talk following the protecting of the article. I propose a bit of a spring clean, mainly by splitting the politics section into politics (which would be descriptive) and quotes 1)by him and 2) about him. That should at least start to give the article some shape, cos it's almost unreadable at the moment. An awards section would be good, if anyone knows which awards he's won. I think we should stick strictly to primary sources too. I've started by adding a (free) picture. FelixFelix talk 15:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
He and many others deny it-a violation of WP:BLP and WP:NOP, as one of my recent colleagues is fond of pointing out. It should go. FelixFelix talk 22:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In all of his "editing", Felix-felix has consistently sought to remove any material that potrays Atzmon in any sort of balanced, i.e. less than fully favorable, light, no matter how well-documented that material may be. It is therefore impossible to conclude that he is anything other than a worshipful admirer of Atzmon -perhaps even a personal friend? - who is seeking to impose a throughly one-sided POV agenda. I suggest that he be warned - if not ultimately banned - for his POV violations. More balanced and professional editing in conformance to Wikipedia rules must be instituted.
Including Gilad Atzmon in a category called "Anti-Semitism" is clearly unacceptable under the biographies of living persons policy. It cannot be attached as a blanket category to anyone ever accused of anti-Semitism, because it is a generally pejorative term which will unfairly taint Mr. Atzmon's life and reputation. It cannot be proven that Mr. Atzmon is an anti-Semite, there is no general historical agreement that he is, and he himself vehemently denies it. Throwing him into a blanket category along with Adolf Hitler and Nazism is unacceptable in the extreme. FCYTravis 02:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is unbalanced as it is almost entirely devoted to the subject's political statements. Since the lead implies that he is notable first as a musician, secondly as an author and only thirdly as a political commentator, then surely there should be a list of his works, perhaps with some of the languages they have been translated into, and a discography? I will make a start on the biblio but I think there is a standard form for discography that I am not confident with. Itsmejudith 11:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
At the moment there is no description, and no source, for any original comments that started off the controversy. It starts with Atzmon replying to accusations. What did he originally say, when and where, that made others react so unfavourably? Itsmejudith 23:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As was written a few weeks ago: "In all of his "editing", Felix-felix has consistently sought to remove any material that potrays Atzmon in any sort of balanced, i.e. less than fully favorable, light, no matter how well-documented that material may be. It is therefore impossible to conclude that he is anything other than a worshipful admirer of Atzmon -perhaps even a personal friend? - who is seeking to impose a throughly one-sided POV agenda. I suggest that he be warned - if not ultimately banned - for his POV violations. More balanced and professional editing in conformance to Wikipedia rules must be instituted."
This problem has only gotten worse in the time since then; Felix-felix (who appears to live in London and therefore may be a close political friend of associate of Atzmon's)has continued to engage in excessive POV reverts. Clearly, given his reluctance to learn from his previous "blocks", I think the time has come that he be PERMANENTLY BANNED from future editing of not just this entry, but the site as a whole. I would ask jayjig and other Wikipedia administrators to keep a much closer eye on this serial violator, "Felix-felix".
Goodness! FelixFelix talk 21:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Felix-felix, please don't hide controversial category removals in stealthy ways. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 22:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If I may inquire, why is this page locked?-- Grauniad63 00:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that reviews and interviews are specifically encouraged, and I could see no copyright violation in the 3 which I restored-I have cleaned up the other links as per WP:EL though.If anyone has any music links, they would be really good. FelixFelix talk 16:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Isarig, I removed the part of the passage about Atzmon comparing Israel to Nazi Germany,( a passage that I wrote) because it's redundant, a quote doing literally that appears in the quote section. So, it's not a whitewash-just a cleanup. FelixFelix talk 17:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the way to avoid this being yet another pissin' match WP article with supporters putting in the nicest stuff and detractors putting in the nastiest stuff, which in the end really says nothing and looks amateurish (because it is amateurish), is to grow up about article writing and buy the man's freakin' books and use them to make the article truly substantive, plus about 75% longer. Novel idea, maybe, but hey. Cryptographic hash 03:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure what you think is redundant about the statement that he compares Israel to Nazi Germany. Perhaps you think that once we said he is a critic of Israel, nothing more needs to be said, but this is false. Criticisms of Israel and/or her policies may range from the mild, nearly uncontroversial claim that Israel could do more to preserve the natural coastal sand dunes by limiting urban sprawl, to the extremist position that Israel is an illegitimate estate with no right to exist. On this spectrum, a comparison with Nazi Germany is clearly on the extreme end, and thus it is not at all redundant to describe where on the spectrum of critics Atzmon lays. Isarig 01:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry chaps, but the fun is over. Wiki will face legal consequences if it continues to publish this article on Gilad Atzmon, which is vandalised on an almost daily basis, and if his name is not removed from the category, anti-semitism. He will follow up shortly with a letter to wiki admin. Thanks for your co-operation, but take note that the blissful libel days are over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magienoir ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
While I doubt today's vandalism or the above is a comment from Atzmon or his representatives, I was getting ready to delete the following anyway. I do know that Atzmon himself aggressively defends his reputation against constant (and often dubious) accusations of antisemtisim. WP:BLP cautions us to be conservative in making accusations without very reliable sources. Plus WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE indicates deleting the following entries best way to go:
Carol Moore 15:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
(<-)Carol, your changes to the Arab News intro masked the point that Atzmon does not like the comparison because he believes modern Israel is worse than Nazi Germany. I have left your construction, but added a sentence in the intro to restore accuracy, and added an Atzmon sentence in the quotation to support it. -- Avi ( talk) 17:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't sure, so it cannot hurt to clarify it for the reader, and bring reliable sources to back it up. As for the order, I just put it into what i believe is chronological, as Atzmon's responses are 12/2006, I believe. Another option is to put all criticism in one subsectin, and his response in another—logical as opposed to chronological. -- Avi ( talk) 18:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Carol, you are correct when you say we cannot quote a subject and then in-article use that quote to criticize the subject. However, that is not was is happening vis-a-vis the ArabNews quote. rather, we are quoting what he said in the section on his politics. It is incontravertible that he claims that the comparison between Israel and nazi Germany is incorrect, as Israel is worse. It is that kind of statement, and the response it engenders, from all sides of the political spectrum, that makes him notable. So quoting his own words without adding any editorial commentary is not only allowed, but recommended. Let us bring his own statements and let the reader decide. -- Avi ( talk) 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The article listed The Guardian amongst the places where Atzmon has been published. ("Atzon is a political writer who has been published by----".) (Indeed, it was listed first, probably because it is the most authoritative of the publications.) The footnote was this: Gilad Atzmon, A Response to David Hirsh, The Guardian, December 12, 2006. I have removed this, because it is not, as (a) he was published at the Guardian's blog site, Comment is Free (CiF), which is very different from being published in the newspaper, and (b) what they published was a right to reply piece - initially a comment on the blog post - which the Guardian make very clear, in the introduction to the post, is far from an endorsement of his views. It is, therefore, tendentious to claim the Guardian has published Atzmon. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 08:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
My original edit: About most of the former and current "Jewish Marxist" members of the "bund" (the General Jewish Labor Union), he writes:
RolandR's re-edit of my statement reads: Writing about the Jewish revolutionary Marxists of the "Bund" (the General Jewish Labor Union), he writes:
This is a paragraph about what he says, NOT about what people want people to think he wrote or about what they think he should have written. Therefore it should revert to my original edit. Also, if RolandR is a member of the "bund" he should reveal that WP:COI. Carol Moore 20:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Please look this: http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/10/10/gilad-atzmon-the-credit-crunch-is-a-zio-punch/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.61.51 ( talk) 21:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I really think the whole article is getting there, so adding gratuitious insults from opinion pieces doesn't help. Once I get over my head cold will decide if it should be taken to WP:BLP noticeboard as being overly POV negative or whatever... Carol Moore 14:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
User:Drsmoo and User:Antifacist have chosen to edit this article with POV edits and even insulting edit summaries. After I reverted their changes a few times User:Avraham (Avi) has threatened to get me in trouble under the WP:3RR (3 revert rule], even though policy clearly says Wikipedia:3rr#Exceptions "Reverting the addition of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced controversial material which violates the policy on biographies of living persons." Therefore I have invited all three to participate in cooperative editing on this article. Below are specific problems with these edits that I consider violations of BLP - some very serious. Please do not intersperse your replies in my original message which I will keep intact. Copy whatever you are going to reply to to your response.
Finally I think that Politics and Allegations of antisemitism should be separate sections, so I no longer object to using that in a section title. Carol Moore 17:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
A good article on Atzmon
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1559.
For starters, Israel Shamir is not an "Activist writer" he is an anti-semite plain and simple. And Gilad Atzmon is a holocaust denier as well, to the extent that he even denies that the concept of Holocaust denial and anti-semitism exist. There's no compromise or middle ground here. The facts of the matter are he's a delusional bigot. Drsmoo ( talk) 17:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 17:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC
<---Avi, I hope you noticed that we discussed above letting each other know what edits were were going to make before hand, as I did below. But if I have any problems with them I'll let you know. Remember some WP:RS info and references were removed by vandals and others and I'm still trying to get back them back in there. But if you make some changes I suggested, Yeah! Carol Moore 19:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)Carol, I believe you have misread the pertinent policy. Let me quote it in full (emphasis added is my own):
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
If the source would pass WP:V and WP:RS in its own language, it is acceptable for EnWiki, if there is no appropriate English language source that has the same information, so I believe you are mistaken regarding the policy, Carol. I am not making any qualitative or quantitative statement about the source in and of itself, other than WP:V#English does not necessarily forbid its use. We use Arabic citations on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for example (BBC Persian), but require the English version of Al Jazeera articles where they exist. -- Avi ( talk) 18:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Evening full of dissonance
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(<-)Carol, it is true that Google translates the word "mehrere" as "several". In Yiddish, "mehr" however can mean "many" or "more" so that is why we need to ask a German speaker whether in context the word means "many" or "several". An acceptable solution would be to remove the word "Many" from the sentence pending confirmation from German speakers. Removing the quote in and of itself may be construed as a POV whitewashing attempt. Also, I do not believe that the use of the term "many" qualifies the entire article for a POV tag. The sources brought, so far, seem to be reliable, and the accusations of anti-semitism exist and are sourced. While discussion should be had on how to best represent the accusations and the responses to said accusations, I remain uncertain that the tagging is appropriate in this case. -- Avi ( talk) 19:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Update from a German speaker: original article is from a reliable source (a respectable local paper; and it reports that he said "there is no forensic evidence" for the number of dead Jews being 6000000; which cannot be read as a claim for any other number, never mind zero. Rd232 talk
Ie those that follow wiki policies closely but have been reverted against wiki policy. Please comment with reference to wiki policy if you disagree, not personal opinion. But remember things clearly vs. BLP can be removed immediately and repeatedly...
Carol, the source is in German, not Dutch. and in turn comes from an RS, namely 'Ruhr Nachrichten (Bochum)'. Actually, as reported this ref does not make Atzmon out to be a Holocaust denier of the Irving type. He is cited as questioned the figure of 6 million, and argued that there was no forensic proof/evidence for that 6,000,000. I don't see why this cannot be reported here. Readers can draw their own conclusions, as to whether he is equivocating or whether he blew his top at the 'round', 'upper limit' figure of 6 million, when even serious scholars have calculated nearly a million less (Raul Hilberg thought 5,100,000, Yehuda Bauer is for the figure Atzmon contested), and what he understood by a phrase like 'forensic proof/evidence'. I find these ambiguities deeply distasteful. But the source is reliable, the language source not really problematical as long as one gets a bilingual German/English native speaker to construe it with great precision (it has some grammatical niceties). If anything it is far too succinct, and vague to be definitive one way or another on Atzmon's views, in that a bitter altercation betwen him and listeners gets just two or three lines. I side in any case with Avi here, even though I'ìve only edited this page once or twice, and could be viewed as an intruder. Nishidani ( talk) 19:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I have not even begun to vet the political sections; the musical section was a complete mess in itself. I don't think I will have time to do the politics, even just check the links for accuracy now, so I'll take off the {{ inuse}} tag. -- Avi ( talk) 20:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea, Nishdani. My (limited) musical knowledge does not cover jazz at all (maybe a smattering of Dave Brubek). The structure was a mess though, collaborations and albums in paragraphs separated by style and political leanings. I hope that now, at least, there is a coherent skeleton which can be enfleshed by someone more knowledgeable. -- Avi ( talk) 14:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
"Allegations..." is the most neutral way to say that Atzmon has been accused of holding anti-semitic views. Remember the months long discussions on the "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" articles? The accusations of antiSemitic views make him especially notable, so to hide that is, in my opinion, artificially damping the very facts that give this person that extra boost of notability. Thoughts? -- Avi ( talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)An improvement, Carol. Even if it only makes things more structured, that is a definite plus
. My sense of symmetry would like to see the Antisemitism section have the title "Antisemitism" and two subsections "Allegations" and "Responses". But I understand from a connotation perspective that it may be viewed as too negative, so your setup may be preferable. We have a ways to go, but nicely done. --
Avi (
talk)
14:29, 29 October 2008 (UTC)